98 replies to this topic

[zaepp]

RedVan, on December 13 2013 - 02:41 PM, said:

zaepp, on December 13 2013 - 04:51 AM, said:

SS got two hit-scan weapons, thus no need to correct aim

You realize leading a target is just as easy as pointing directly at a target right_  If you're a good player, you don't spend any time "correcting" aim. You just do it.

Add to that remote det weaponry, and you don't even need to be able to aim

I'm a average player, around 1700 to 1800 MMR. Leading or not, if you got a non-hit-scan secondary you have to aim somewhere else for a brief moment. That's more difficult, for me at least. Try to get the hang of Predator lately, got better but still not "good".

Thing is, seems like that nobody suppose to say that, in his opinion/personal experience, SS is easy or easier to play even if someone just sucks even more with other mechs, as long as he doesn't have 2400+ MMR and is seemingly one of the best SS-player currently active. Obviously we got a two-tier society here. Not everybody is a competitive player or want to be competitive but has probably a opinion too.

BTT:
I think SS is fine currently, maybe a slight boost of mobility could be useful. Since Ascension I think its very clunky therefore I enjoy reaper more lately.

[Grizzled]

Rei, on December 12 2013 - 10:15 PM, said:

Bloody_Bucket, on December 12 2013 - 08:54 PM, said:

SS.  

I can run right up one's throat with a Reaper, and out kill him.

I can dance around him and get him with a few (three_) grenades and a HEAT (infil).  If I miss, though, he'll make me pay.

I want to see this. A SS shouldn't be losing to a Reaper in a 1 on 1. Infil is hard, but still very winnable.

But that's about dueling, not necessarily the current meta and placement in TDM/MA. (Siege is pretty much w/e lol). In the triangular MA maps, SS is tough to play. Speedy deathball seems to be the easiest choice for running around in circles destroying everything quickly and capping quickly. Facility is all right for SS since they can hold S2 very well, but spawning logic in that map makes it harder. SS is harder on last ECO since they have to move around a lot more and it's harder to stop a team from just capping a point when they spawn somewhat near it.

As for Frontline/Origin/Bazaar, I feel like SS is pretty damn strong on S2 point on most of the maps. Also at certain vantage points like underbridge on origin (bridge under S2 on origin) or just about any corner on Frontline. SS is pretty strong on top of points too so it's a good site holder, and certainly slows people down from advancing onto the point.

I counter SS with Reaper, There are only a few SS players that give me pause and part of it is we have 100 ping difference in their favor. Give me a 40 ping and I will counter SS with grenedere.

[fingerknitter]

zaepp, on December 13 2013 - 04:16 PM, said:

RedVan, on December 13 2013 - 02:41 PM, said:

zaepp, on December 13 2013 - 04:51 AM, said:

SS got two hit-scan weapons, thus no need to correct aim

You realize leading a target is just as easy as pointing directly at a target right_  If you're a good player, you don't spend any time "correcting" aim. You just do it.

Add to that remote det weaponry, and you don't even need to be able to aim

I'm a average player, around 1700 to 1800 MMR. Leading or not, if you got a non-hit-scan secondary you have to aim somewhere else for a brief moment. That's more difficult, for me at least. Try to get the hang of Predator lately, got better but still not "good".

Thing is, seems like that nobody suppose to say that, in his opinion/personal experience, SS is easy or easier to play even if someone just sucks even more with other mechs, as long as he doesn't have 2400+ MMR and is seemingly one of the best SS-player currently active. Obviously we got a two-tier society here. Not everybody is a competitive player or want to be competitive but has probably a opinion too.

BTT:
I think SS is fine currently, maybe a slight boost of mobility could be useful. Since Ascension I think its very clunky therefore I enjoy reaper more lately.

Splash weapons make hitting CLOSE but not ON target deal damage; if you miss with double hitscan you miss with double hitscan. Also, unlike the cqc mechs who can make use of the boost + jump to quickly fire their weapons, the scope sway AND just hipfire go completely off the charts given a little hop, which is really rough if you are coming from the scout or raider lol.

I think a decent way to buff both the SS and the Reaper would be to replace either Cooling Units or Radar with another tuning option; I never have the feeling that I can "try stuff out" if there are two tuning options like that that I avoid like the plague...

If you guys could replace CU or Radar with another tuning option, what would it be_

[Nept]

Suspensions.  No question.  The mech's slow as balls.

[fingerknitter]

Nept, on December 13 2013 - 07:43 PM, said:

Suspensions.  No question.  The mech's slow as balls.

lol exactly what I was wanting too xD

Its more important that the SS and the Reaper can move around corners since their weapons have no way of doing so.

[Angels]

Reaper and SS and any other long range mech got hurt by the hp boost, so after a fight you would normally be low enough to die in 1 prim+2ndary pre-ascension, now you often end up with more than that thanks to the internals such as armor fusor or rep kit along with the increased armor, so it is lot harder to be a sniper.
2nd thing: SS is so slow a c class can dance around it, if you dont kill them by the time they got to you, you mostly end up dead.
Reaper: it was possible to even fight scouts in cqc pre-ascension, now you need do a lot of mid dmg before you can engage in cqc, the tunings helps it's sniper style... but it hurts a lot in the cqc-close mid, which is the main style of fighting and you will end up there quite a few times.
Although reaper is as absolutely wonderful in mid-range, but sadly people can repair so fast they have full by the time you caught up to the mech that ran away to repair. Give the reaper more speed, it doesn't need tunings such as radar, boost and walking speed (forgot the tuning names) would help a reaper more.

Edited by Angels, December 14 2013 - 12:37 AM.

[CounterlogicMan]

It wrecks people in lower to mid tier games. At high tier games it is totally reliant on teammates to protect it, otherwise its full potential is lost. If left un-abused a good SS will shift a game in your favor very quickly. At higher tier games it becomes much harder to land hits with the weapons due to the players having more advanced/effective movement patterns coupled with cross region server lag.

A huge strength of the SS in high level play is the deterrence, no one wants to get hit by it and lose a chunk of hp before a fight with another good player. Every little bit of hp is super important at high level play. Hit a high tier player with power shot, especially one in an A class, and you just caused him to retreat, die, or waste a repair charge. Making your enemy give up the momentum can help your team take the AA/silo or take out a high profile enemy.

As an SS you have the ability to reach out and instantly touch someone that is across the map. This can greatly help your team in knocking down enemies and taking points. It is as much about timing as it is accuracy as it is positioning. Think twice before instantly shooting at someone when they step out of cover. Take into account did they step out of cover or dodge out of cover, what do you think their dodge cooldown is_ are they engaged_ are they about to engage_ do they see you_ etc. All these things come into play when your lining up a shot. More so the higher you get in level and skill.

Learn to bait.

Learn to use holograms effectively.

Experiment with different sensitivities.

Know the current balance meta.

Recognize dangerous players and make sure they take damage every time they step out into the open.

Amsar and sa hawkin are okay in certain situations but lack overall effectiveness due to just how the game plays. However with respect to the OP, honestly SS is one of the more balanced classes in the game.

Edited by CounterlogicMan, December 14 2013 - 09:04 AM.

[Rei]

fingerknitter, on December 13 2013 - 07:26 PM, said:

I think a decent way to buff both the SS and the Reaper would be to replace either Cooling Units or Radar with another tuning option; I never have the feeling that I can "try stuff out" if there are two tuning options like that that I avoid like the plague...

You should try to use the Radar tunings if possible. I think they are fantastic. They won't help with DPS or anything, but the map awareness they give you are pretty insane. And Cooling units on some other mechs make it so you don't really have to worry too much about heat management, like Brawler or Tech.

CounterlogicMan, on December 14 2013 - 09:02 AM, said:

It wrecks people in lower to mid tier games. At high tier games it is totally reliant on teammates to protect it, otherwise its full potential is lost. If left un-abused a good SS will shift a game in your favor very quickly. At higher tier games it becomes much harder to land hits with the weapons due to the players having more advanced/effective movement patterns coupled with cross region server lag.

A huge strength of the SS in high level play is the deterrence, no one wants to get hit by it and lose a chunk of hp before a fight with another good player. Every little bit of hp is super important at high level play. Hit a high tier player with power shot, especially one in an A class, and you just caused him to retreat, die, or waste a repair charge. Making your enemy give up the momentum can help your team take the AA/silo or take out a high profile enemy.

As an SS you have the ability to reach out and instantly touch someone that is across the map. This can greatly help your team in knocking down enemies and taking points. It is as much about timing as it is accuracy as it is positioning. Think twice before instantly shooting at someone when they step out of cover. Take into account did they step out of cover or dodge out of cover, what do you think their dodge cooldown is_ are they engaged_ are they about to engage_ do they see you_ etc. All these things come into play when your lining up a shot. More so the higher you get in level and skill.

Learn to bait.

Learn to use holograms effectively.

Experiment with different sensitivities.

Know the current balance meta.

Recognize dangerous players and make sure they take damage every time they step out into the open.

Amsar and sa hawkin are okay in certain situations but lack overall effectiveness due to just how the game plays. However with respect to the OP, honestly SS is one of the more balanced classes in the game.

I don't necessarily think teammates need to "protect" the Sharpshooter actively. The SS can position itself to where the enemy would have to go through your team to get to you, or go all the way around where most of the time you can spot them via radar or sight. Even then, the SS 1on1 ability is pretty strong. Positioning though is one of the key ways of protecting yourself. You can be on that cliff far from everything if you know where the enemy team is. Just don't stray too far from your own so you still have a place to run to if things get sticky.

I do agree with the rest of your post though. Reading and analyzing movement is incredibly important. That's something you can only get a feel from playing all the time. I'm not a fan of using holograms, but that's up to taste. And effective holograms can definitely make an impact on the game. Just make sure you're putting them out often enough to replace old ones.

[fingerknitter]

Rei, on December 14 2013 - 01:12 PM, said:

fingerknitter, on December 13 2013 - 07:26 PM, said:

I think a decent way to buff both the SS and the Reaper would be to replace either Cooling Units or Radar with another tuning option; I never have the feeling that I can "try stuff out" if there are two tuning options like that that I avoid like the plague...

You should try to use the Radar tunings if possible. I think they are fantastic. They won't help with DPS or anything, but the map awareness they give you are pretty insane. And Cooling units on some other mechs make it so you don't really have to worry too much about heat management, like Brawler or Tech.

See, I've maxed out the scout, so I have the radar item on most of my mechs seeing as I haven't collected enough HC to get all the internals/items I want on all of my mechs yet, but even still I hardly depend on my radar enough to want MORE out of it. As for cooling units, with the slug, AM Sar, and the KE Sabot/Sabot, cooling units only come into effect when you are missing more shots than you should. I never overheat in either of the ranged mechs, and Radar tuning to me is a novelty (as the CU units are on the ranged mechs IMO).

It would be fine if it had one or the other but to have BOTH is fairly limiting. Right now, weapons loader and armor are maxed out and the rest are in hydraulics and boost; radar tuning points and CU are too peripheral to combat and take up what I would love to be a suspension tuning option. Other than the tech, the SS and the Reaper are the only two mechs that I can think of that I purposefully avoid two entire tuning options for their lack of relevance in performance (IMO).

[Exeon]

Nept, on December 13 2013 - 07:43 PM, said:

Suspensions.  No question.  The mech's slow as balls.

The sharpshooter and reaper were previously cqc master duelist mechs before ascension, they were also the most notable member of any team even if they were shooting from 300 yards away. After ascension the sharpshooter has remained a very strong mech heavily thanks to its powershot ability while the reaper falls just a little short on DPS from being worth while for any team to bring. The mech fulfills its role perfectly still, honestly don't see why the mech needs a change. You can't be allowed to be amazing at everything, for this mech you happen to be amazing at long range harass and A class assassination.

[Rei]

Yeah, I think Sharpshooter is great at it's role.

[Nept]

Decreasing its dodge cooldown doesn't drastically alter the mech's effectiveness.  And master duelists my foot.  The only one using it effectively in CQC pre-Ascension was myself.

[Rei]

Nept, on December 15 2013 - 03:44 PM, said:

The only one using it effectively in CQC pre-Ascension was myself.

What was that_

[Nept]

The truth.

*Edit* If you'd care to demonstrate your CQC'ing against our A's, I'd love to see it.

Edited by Nept, December 15 2013 - 04:11 PM.

[Leonhardt]

The SS is slow, has horrible DPS and has to hit all of its shots scoped in CQC to beat a good opponent. Not to mention it has the lowest health of all the B-classes lowering CQC effectiveness.

If they aren't going to add suspensions to the mech at the very least lower the base dodge cooldown to make up for its lack of movement.

Unlike all of its other B-class brothers it gets the shaft with no movement upgrades other than fuel tank and hydraulics which results in a mech that is as slow as balls. I get that it has to be approachable and be difficult to use in CQC, but there is no reason why it should get almost no movement options other than walking slightly faster and boosting for a bit longer at the speed of smell.

Dodging takes up a lot of fuel and its still a B-class so the model is huge. I am not seeing why a slight decrease in base cooldown is an issue since the mech can't really run away from most mechs in the game anyway. I think the only mech it can run from is a brawler, but I haven't tested that since the update. lol

[Rei]

Nept, on December 15 2013 - 04:10 PM, said:

The truth.

*Edit* If you'd care to demonstrate your CQC'ing against our A's, I'd love to see it.

The truth is also I've destroyed you CQC'ing in the past :/... Get off your high horse,

Back on topic, I agree with Nept that increasing suspensions doesn't really do anything for the SS. I personally think it's fine as is. Does it's job very well. Doesn't decimate everything at all ranges, but can still compete. Definitely one of the stronger mechs in the game, which I feel is in a great place.

[Nept]

Really_  Because I don't recall that.  Doesn't seem as though Stone, Leon, or hestoned have any issue with your SS either. It's not a high horse, it's the horse of reality.  You're more than welcome to come change our opinions, though.  Until then, I'll keep reiterating the challenge.

I'm personally sick of seeing people talk about the SS's ease of use and CQC effectiveness when they cannot demonstrate that effectiveness themselves.  Let's say that you are as effective as you believe yourself to be with the mech.  That gives us, what_  Three to Five good sharpshooters_  Against how many good scouts_  Good infiltrators_  Hell, good Brawlers_

Increasing the mech's mobility through suspensions allows better players to take slight advantage during CQC engagements.  It doesn't unbalance the mech, and it's entirely countered by the enemy mech hitting their shots.

[Rei]

Nept, on December 15 2013 - 04:31 PM, said:

Really_  Because I don't recall that.  Doesn't seem as though Stone, Leon, or hestoned have any issue with your SS either. It's not a high horse, it's the horse of reality.  You're more than welcome to come change our opinions, though.  Until then, I'll keep reiterating the challenge.

I'm personally sick of seeing people talk about the SS's ease of use and CQC effectiveness when they cannot demonstrate that effectiveness themselves.  Let's say that you are as effective as you believe yourself to be with the mech.  That gives us, what_  Three to Five good sharpshooters_  Against how many good scouts_  Good infiltrators_  Hell, good Brawlers_

Increasing the mech's mobility through suspensions allows better players to take slight advantage during CQC engagements.  It doesn't unbalance the mech, and it's entirely countered by the enemy mech hitting their shots.

I didn't say good sharpshooter are plenty. You're right, they're very scarce.

[Culex]

Another thread where Nept has gone and put himself on the pedestal. Kind of to be expected. Most good SS don't have to preach it on the forums 24/7. Acting like we have something to prove, lol. High horse indeed, Rei.

[Nept]

Rei, on December 15 2013 - 04:38 PM, said:

You're right, they're very scarce.

Then perhaps that's something to consider as we debate the mech's balance.