98 replies to this topic

[Nept]

JeffMagnum, on December 12 2013 - 08:01 PM, said:

Akrium, on December 12 2013 - 06:14 PM, said:

I don't think there is anything wrong w/ the mech in question.. I think people are trying new things.

As it stands, the SS is still stupidly powerful. GREAT at range and GREAT at CQC... the only time it takes skill to play is in mid range.

And that is just scoping skills.

This entire post is basically Nept bait fyi. Anyway, I'd argue that SS is actually one of the hardest mechs in the game to play well and requires an immense amount of skill to play at a high level compared to other mechs, at least when enemies play intelligently. Sure, you have two hitscan burst weapons, but you also have terrible DPS, awful maneuverability, and no way to hit enemies that aren't in your LOS. Everyone acts like playing SS is mind-numbingly easy, but honestly I've only ever seen two SS players able to play the mech at anywhere near a mastery level--those players are Nept and Climatic.

That's right! I almost forgot my typical SS post response.

Nept, on November 17 2013 - 06:01 PM, said:

zaepp, on November 17 2013 - 05:51 PM, said:

Not that I am very good at it, but as long as your ping is good, SS is not high-skill at all IMO.

I'm still waiting for the person whose SS abilities match their mouth.

[Super_Pickle]

Most SS players like to stand in one place. This is an alright move in some cases, but a really really bad move in most situations. However, a single good stationary SS can turn the tide of a siege match by picking off wounded targets and making sure that the enemy team can't repair under the AA. That forces the enemy team off the gun to repair, or just keeps the enemy team from repairing at all and gives your team an opening to take it. Although most SS players seem to have rocks in their head, because they're unable to actually kill stuff. A sniper that stands on the side of the map that the team normally attacks from is the most worthless useless piece of garbage ever to enter a siege match. The position that a SS picks to snipe from is just about the most important thing ever. If you don't have a line of sight to the escape routes of the enemies or the spots they repair, you are useless because most other mechs have more dps and can get in closer to mess up the enemy more and chase to kill repairing enemies. If a SS isn't constantly killing mechs, then it is playing wrong, because there are plenty of other easier options for messing up the enemy.

On the same extent, a SS can play TDM like that, picking off mechs that try to leave the fight to repair, or getting into a place where it can hit repairing mechs. The best way to show how much you are helping your team is by killing scouts with a power shot when they repair. (So much win.) However, I find that if there aren't enough mechs fighting at fairly close ranges, then the team falls apart and can't manage to stick together enough to keep from getting killed by the giant death ball of scouts and techs, so the SS is fairly useless because the enemy team moves too much to get into a good position or pick off enemies. (Read: The proper TDM strategy makes the SS useless as a long range sniper.)

This means that standing in one place and shooting stuff is a pretty bad move. The alternative is the awesome SS player. The one who gets up in other mech's faces and doesn't afraid of anything. This is the one I really want in my team. The one who is able to get in a real fight with any other mech and have a good chance of winning it. The one who stands under the AA while sniping across the map at the other team, killing anything that gets close. The SS who stands directly behind the tech, making sure that an A class can't get close enough to do any damage without taking a power shot to the face. This is the awesome SS player. I've met so few of them that I can count on one hand how many truly awesome SS players there are.

It really boils down to the skill of the pilot. The newbie SS player who stands at your base sniping at the front of the AA can lose you matches. The standard SS player who goes to the side of the map to snipe is a most a minor annoyance for me to use my raider/scout to pick off and then flank the enemy team. At best, that player helps out their team in a pretty big way. Mostly, this depends on how well the SS can stand up in a fight against a scout or raider, and how well the pilot picks their position. (Too far from your allies to get any help_ Hello free kill.) The totally awesome pro SS player who beats my raider repeatedly so hard I want to cry myself to sleep is the one pulling the team out of the jaws of certain defeat.

The SS definitely has its place, and I've seen a fair amount of good SS players on this latest patch. The problem is, SS can be played so bad it ruins your team, and you only really need one average SS player. Any more and you have problems on your team. The SS is fine by itself and fills its role just fine, but it could use some buffs so that having multiple SS on one team isn't a real problem. We know that having 4+ hellfire classes or 4+ A classes isn't a problem, so why should having a team with 3 SS pretty much mean you're screwed_

Edited by Super_Pickle, December 13 2013 - 12:21 AM.

[Rei]

If you have 3 SS coordinating on targets, then they can instagib units from across the map. Hitscan burst is a pretty scary thing which is why their numbers had to go down imo. And yes you are right, a good SS will be at the right location at the right time. One of the reasons I use the radar tuning points. Lets me see a lot more of the battlefield, and lets me set up for better positions so I can shoot the enemy and hopefully not be body blocked by teammates. In any mode, a competent player won't let you just snipe them to death in an open field. They're going to hide behind things to repair. I don't chase wounded targets most of the time, because that's not going to help my team. Half of the time it gets you baited and killed, and you could really focus on what's really important. Keeping your team alive. If that guy is off repairing, he's not fighting. SS is best at taking out techs and squishy A mechs like the scout which is incredibly important. Yes it takes a lot of situational awareness to play (as does any mech).

And Nept, as for that quote. Holy fuzzy bunny when my ping is what it should be (30 or less which is sadly only after 1 AM wtf AWS east/verizon...) my SS is completely different.

As for Reaper... Well I'm not too experienced with it, but I don't see too much of a place for it since the damage is a good bit lower, and it's much easier to counter snipe it due to a low health pool.

[Super_Pickle]

Rei, on December 13 2013 - 12:42 AM, said:

If you have 3 SS coordinating on targets, then they can instagib units from across the map. Hitscan burst is a pretty scary thing which is why their numbers had to go down imo. And yes you are right, a good SS will be at the right location at the right time. One of the reasons I use the radar tuning points. Lets me see a lot more of the battlefield, and lets me set up for better positions so I can shoot the enemy and hopefully not be body blocked by teammates. In any mode, a competent player won't let you just snipe them to death in an open field. They're going to hide behind things to repair. I don't chase wounded targets most of the time, because that's not going to help my team. Half of the time it gets you baited and killed, and you could really focus on what's really important. Keeping your team alive. If that guy is off repairing, he's not fighting. SS is best at taking out techs and squishy A mechs like the scout which is incredibly important. Yes it takes a lot of situational awareness to play (as does any mech).

And Nept, as for that quote. Holy fuzzy bunny when my ping is what it should be (30 or less which is sadly only after 1 AM wtf AWS east/verizon...) my SS is completely different.

As for Reaper... Well I'm not too experienced with it, but I don't see too much of a place for it since the damage is a good bit lower, and it's much easier to counter snipe it due to a low health pool.

Nah, the SS shouldn't be off chasing stuff. It should be in a place where it can hit enemies that are repairing. The best example is the bridge on frontline. If a SS is sitting there, then it has full line of sight under the entire AA. Nothing can repair under the AA without getting shot at. The few places there are to repair are very prone to flanking attacks. With a good SS on the bridge, it's much easier to take the AA and hold it. Origin has the same problems with a good SS on the side towers to a lesser extent. A SS hitting through half the AA makes it pretty hard to hold it, but the SS has to be able to kill stuff when it shoots it. The SS doesn't need to move around, but it has to be in the right position to start with. On TDM games that's much more difficult, since the fighting keeps moving, so it's hard to know where to be.

Edited by Super_Pickle, December 13 2013 - 01:47 AM.

[Xacius]

There are far better chasers than the SS... I find that the SS is best as a hang-bang kind of support role, able to pick off fleeing targets and cover the advancing team.  It's great in open areas, but starts to lose effectiveness in CQC.

[zaepp]

Nept, on December 12 2013 - 11:58 PM, said:

JeffMagnum, on December 12 2013 - 08:01 PM, said:

Akrium, on December 12 2013 - 06:14 PM, said:

I don't think there is anything wrong w/ the mech in question.. I think people are trying new things.

As it stands, the SS is still stupidly powerful. GREAT at range and GREAT at CQC... the only time it takes skill to play is in mid range.

And that is just scoping skills.

This entire post is basically Nept bait fyi. Anyway, I'd argue that SS is actually one of the hardest mechs in the game to play well and requires an immense amount of skill to play at a high level compared to other mechs, at least when enemies play intelligently. Sure, you have two hitscan burst weapons, but you also have terrible DPS, awful maneuverability, and no way to hit enemies that aren't in your LOS. Everyone acts like playing SS is mind-numbingly easy, but honestly I've only ever seen two SS players able to play the mech at anywhere near a mastery level--those players are Nept and Climatic.

That's right! I almost forgot my typical SS post response.

Nept, on November 17 2013 - 06:01 PM, said:

zaepp, on November 17 2013 - 05:51 PM, said:

Not that I am very good at it, but as long as your ping is good, SS is not high-skill at all IMO.

I'm still waiting for the person whose SS abilities match their mouth.

Despite my low level of skill and the danger to sound blasphemous again, I still think, at least as long as your ping is good, SS is easier to play than any CQC-mech. SS got two hit-scan weapons, thus no need to correct aim, is great to stay out of CQC and has a scope. It was my first mech back in open beta and I did significantly better with it than with my Rocketeer. But IDK, I just played two weeks in open beta. And of course totally low skill matches, like minus 800 MMR. Yeah didn't you know, when I started to play the had to introduce minus MMR!

BTT:
I prefer Reaper lately, and despite its lackluster damage and ability, it feels somehow more "fluid" and is better suited for mid-range support.  

Suggestion:
To bring SS back into line I would suggest to equip it with explosive rounds that deal AoE-damage with the size of a small moon.

Edited by zaepp, December 13 2013 - 05:02 AM.

[Xacius]

Nept, on November 17 2013 - 06:01 PM, said:

zaepp, on November 17 2013 - 05:51 PM, said:

Not that I am very good at it, but as long as your ping is good, SS is not high-skill at all IMO.

I'm still waiting for the person whose SS abilities match their mouth.

The advantage of the SS is that you can instantly deal high damage at any range.  If it were buffed to be better in CQC (more damage_ faster_) you'd run into the problem of making it too good in most engagements.  It's already the best mech at mid-long range.  I think it's fine as-is with its current stats.

[zaepp]

Xacius, on December 13 2013 - 05:01 AM, said:

Nept, on November 17 2013 - 06:01 PM, said:

zaepp, on November 17 2013 - 05:51 PM, said:

Not that I am very good at it, but as long as your ping is good, SS is not high-skill at all IMO.

I'm still waiting for the person whose SS abilities match their mouth.

The advantage of the SS is that you can instantly deal high damage at any range.  If it were buffed to be better in CQC (more damage_ faster_) you'd run into the problem of making it too good in most engagements.  It's already the best mech at mid-long range.  I think it's fine as-is with its current stats.

I think also the lack of AoE makes it weaker in CQC than other mechs.

[Greenvalv]

zaepp, on December 13 2013 - 05:15 AM, said:

Xacius, on December 13 2013 - 05:01 AM, said:

Nept, on November 17 2013 - 06:01 PM, said:

zaepp, on November 17 2013 - 05:51 PM, said:

Not that I am very good at it, but as long as your ping is good, SS is not high-skill at all IMO.

I'm still waiting for the person whose SS abilities match their mouth.

The advantage of the SS is that you can instantly deal high damage at any range.  If it were buffed to be better in CQC (more damage_ faster_) you'd run into the problem of making it too good in most engagements.  It's already the best mech at mid-long range.  I think it's fine as-is with its current stats.

I think also the lack of AoE makes it weaker in CQC than other mechs.

Mmmm, I dunno, I think the lack of AOE makes it pretty good at CQC since it doesn't damage itself.  I've been face hugging with SS since Alpha... or was it Closed Beta_  When did we last have the Civ skin_  I want my X-Box SS back...

[OmniShade]

Xacius, on December 13 2013 - 05:01 AM, said:

The advantage of the SS is that you can instantly deal high damage at any range.  If it were buffed to be better in CQC (more damage_ faster_) you'd run into the problem of making it too good in most engagements.  It's already the best mech at mid-long range.  I think it's fine as-is with its current stats.

I'll save Nept some time:

Nept, on December 12 2013 - 05:41 PM, said:

That being said, I'm indifferent so long as they leave the firing mechanics alone.  They make things interesting, and I don't want Adhesive fuzzy bunny with them.

I think the SS is interesting, but I also rarely play it.

[eth0]

Love my SS. Running a similar tuning and definitely can't go without replenisher (also works well on tech for frequent greenbeams).

[Aregon]

Rei, on December 12 2013 - 11:25 PM, said:

Aregon, on December 12 2013 - 10:56 PM, said:

Rei, on December 12 2013 - 05:33 PM, said:

To be honest I don't see many at all that are performing well..

You haven`t met me yet, the most dangerous motherf#cker with the SS.

I'm pretty sure a lot of people know how I really feel about the SS. Whenever I play with people in the BSB vent, they know the fear of just randomly losing 30% of their life without any chance to retaliate. I'm pretty sure I'm in the top 5 SS players.

Though I'm surprised I haven't seen people trying to run two SS too often. If you have two SS focused on the same target... Holy fuzzy bunny is it scary to even poke your head out.

That statement was really directed at most of the random pub SS players I guess. They kind of just sit there and miss or do much of nothing at all .

We should work together once. Both goes SS on Last Eco. Both goes Sabot+Slug and scares the sh!t out of people!

[Aregon]

My tip for the SS:Get the Replenisher, get to the back-row of your team, get some height and go for those with low health. This is the most efficient and useful way to use the SS, IMO.

[HighCaliber]

Imo reaper is a much more fun mech, and requires more skill than the SS. You have to take what seems like twice as many shots, you're constantly moving/dancing/target-switching, you push in more and risk your A frame against better CQC mechs, and your ability is nowhere near as useful as powershot.

A reaper player can transition into SS a lot more easily than vice-versa.

[Akrium]

JeffMagnum, on December 12 2013 - 08:01 PM, said:

Akrium, on December 12 2013 - 06:14 PM, said:

I don't think there is anything wrong w/ the mech in question.. I think people are trying new things.

As it stands, the SS is still stupidly powerful. GREAT at range and GREAT at CQC... the only time it takes skill to play is in mid range.

And that is just scoping skills.

This entire post is basically Nept bait fyi. Anyway, I'd argue that SS is actually one of the hardest mechs in the game to play well and requires an immense amount of skill to play at a high level compared to other mechs, at least when enemies play intelligently. Sure, you have two hitscan burst weapons, but you also have terrible DPS, awful maneuverability, and no way to hit enemies that aren't in your LOS. Everyone acts like playing SS is mind-numbingly easy, but honestly I've only ever seen two SS players able to play the mech at anywhere near a mastery level--those players are Nept and Climatic.

I am NOT saying it needs a nerf. What I am saying is that it IS a powerful mech. But it takes time and skill to master it well.. and all you need to really master is scope shooting. Other than that, the skills in the mech are the same as all other poke mechs. You sit back and play peekaboo. You  may not have as much maneuverability but that is what your increased armor is for. If you don't want that armor but mobility.. go reaper. I'm waiting for the C class sharpshooter that uses railguns and instant gibs people across the map.

To say the mech isn't almost too powerful is silly. The double hitscan weapons do crazy amounts of burst damage on a short notice. Yeah you cannot bend bullets, but they also do instant damage and have zero travel time and the bullet damage reduction range is silly far. It is also a weapon that is only really not effective at mid range. Every other range you have the ability to be effective with it.

If I spent more time playing the SS I have zero doubts I could be wicked at it. Do I care to do this_ No... I am no longer looking to be competitive in Hawken as it will be a year before it really is something to be competitive with. There are other games that peak my interest now. So I will just play a sloppy SS or Reaper and sit back and enjoy myself instead. But that doesn't change the fact the mech isn't the hardest thing to play if you just know positioning and can shoot. Those two abilities alone can make you a good SS, not great.. but very good SS for the team. It's far more effective than any mech using the Hellfires that we all were crying about. And the skill is only slightly higher to be effective. Note: effective does not mean great.. just worthy for your team for you to play the mech.

[RedVan]

zaepp, on December 13 2013 - 04:51 AM, said:

SS got two hit-scan weapons, thus no need to correct aim

You realize leading a target is just as easy as pointing directly at a target right_  If you're a good player, you don't spend any time "correcting" aim. You just do it.

Add to that remote det weaponry, and you don't even need to be able to aim

[Nept]

Re: Akrium

When you say something like "the only time it takes skill to play is in mid range," you're both oversimplifying and demonstrating your ignorance of the mech.

The "I could be amazing if I tried line" is tired and incorrect.  You're not amazing with the mech, and I very much doubt you'd ever be; and until you are amazing with the mech, claims on its ease-of-use are bs.

Edited by Nept, December 13 2013 - 02:43 PM.

[RedVan]

If easy to use, then easy to prove

[Rei]

Guys this is getting incredibly off topic.

It's about SS in the current meta which I think the current consensus is that it's strong and in a good place. Though I'm willing to do some experiments with others some time with good voice communication, aim, and team composition.

[Nept]

Will take some time and experimentation with good players.  A handful of people commenting on its efficacy - most of whom couldn't sharpshoot their way out of a paper bag - doesn't amount to much.  Once we've access to private servers (or their equivalent) and can set up some matches, we'll be in a better position to say.  Until then, there'll be a lot of speculation and bs being tossed about.

Personally, I think it needs a bit of a movement buff.  Would also like to see Powershot's efficacy reduced and the mech's overall dps (sans powershot) increased.

Nept, on November 17 2013 - 06:25 PM, said:

Yeah, I don't mean to sound condescending.  I'm sorta sick of seeing constant SS no-skill claims, so I've taken to addressing each one directly.

zaepp, on November 17 2013 - 06:09 PM, said:

Nept, on November 17 2013 - 06:01 PM, said:

zaepp, on November 17 2013 - 05:51 PM, said:

Not that I am very good at it, but as long as your ping is good, SS is not high-skill at all IMO.

I'm still waiting for the person whose SS abilities match their mouth.

Not as good as you for sure. But I am preforming better with my SS than with Infiltrator, Scout or Raider because these mech require more skill in my opinion. And I also wrote why.

You need to remember - and the developers need to remember - that the SS performs far differently in match scenarios than public games.  It may seem silly balancing for something that's not yet present, but against a good competitive team, the SS's effectiveness is significantly reduced.  Anyone familiar with competitive play knows that cutting line-of-sight (los) through communication and positioning is crucial; there's a reason noone used snipers in Battlefield 3 comp, for example.  Once los is lost, the SS must reposition themselves, which takes awhile (and during which time it's susceptible to being jumped).  This community is still learning those elements, and the  public/"casual" players might never learn them fully.

Presently, there are many players - and many community veterans - who believe themselves far more proficient with the SS than they actually are.  They make this mistake because their SS experiences are limited to hiding behind teammates and sniping with far more support than they'd normally receive (against equally-skilled, knowledgeable opponents).  Against high-level players, you've little target acquisition time, and few open sightlines.  These players will use cover - of which there is plenty - to avoid SS fire and rapidly approach.  If you're unable to respond instantly to directional shifts, and aren't hitting 80-100% of your shots, you will not be effective.  There is very little margin for error.

*Edit*
As an example, I've taken to playing the scout recently.  I've yet to encounter an SS who wasn't a free and easy kill.  The same holds true for our other top pilots (Stone, hestoned, Leon, etc.).

Edited by Nept, December 13 2013 - 03:57 PM.