288 replies to this topic

[fingerknitter]

Beefsweat, on January 13 2014 - 10:45 PM, said:

^ Save your cash. New mechs are coming very soon.

lol too late xD I had one more mech to buy that I just couldn't help xD

[fingerknitter]

Will you also be removing the ability to use an MK I item across all of your mechs once you maxed out a mech_

[sgt_smash]

Im new to hawken, and have bought the scout and am like 4k xp off unlocking the infiltrator.
Does this change mean i loose my mechs _ If so, masive turn off for me. I spent like 4 days grinding this game out to reach pilote rank 18 and and unlock some shinys.

: (

[fingerknitter]

sgt_smash, on January 14 2014 - 12:00 AM, said:

Im new to hawken, and have bought the scout and am like 4k xp off unlocking the infiltrator.
Does this change mean i loose my mechs _ If so, masive turn off for me. I spent like 4 days grinding this game out to reach pilote rank 18 and and unlock some shinys.

: (

I highly doubt they will remove mechs. However, if you can't unlock something, don't grind for it before the patch!!!

[sgt_smash]

well im close to my infiltrator, how long do i have till the patch is live _

[RunaPanda]

Beefsweat, on January 13 2014 - 10:45 PM, said:

^ Save your cash. New mechs are coming very soon.

Question is, is that real cash or in game cash, since as it says free mechs are going away. Sounds to me like it's being made in a pay to play fashion, nearly freemium as they now deem it.

Also does this mean we'll finally get rid of this pilot level bs that limits us to the servers we play_ Since there's hardly ever any for the lv 30 crowd.

Lastly, taking tuning points away is taking away from user customization in the most crucial sense. I like to tune my mechs to my play styles per mech, I don't want no cookie cutter predefined fuzzy bunny that you "think" should be good. This alone is forcing people to play how you want them to play not how they want to play. As if forcing people to zerg isn't bad enough now your forcing us to play each mech how the devs think we should.

[Silverfire]

sgt_smash, on January 14 2014 - 12:00 AM, said:

Im new to hawken, and have bought the scout and am like 4k xp off unlocking the infiltrator.
Does this change mean i loose my mechs _ If so, masive turn off for me. I spent like 4 days grinding this game out to reach pilote rank 18 and and unlock some shinys.

: (

You won't lose anything. If you do lose something, it was not supposed to happen, so if that happens, file a support ticket.

[PR_503ak]

так..так..интересненько..одноко

[evilMonkeyKING]

sgt_smash, on January 14 2014 - 12:00 AM, said:

Im new to hawken, and have bought the scout and am like 4k xp off unlocking the infiltrator.
Does this change mean i loose my mechs _ If so, masive turn off for me. I spent like 4 days grinding this game out to reach pilote rank 18 and and unlock some shinys.

: (

I could be wrong but today's update is not going to be removing anything yet just some tweaks. You guys have until sometime in Feburary to unlock whatever you want. If you can't unluck it by then than you are out of luck.

Edited by evilMonkeyKING, January 14 2014 - 08:32 AM.

[ghostryker]

Silverfire, on January 13 2014 - 08:17 PM, said:

ghostryker, on , said:

I find the loss of tuning points to be quite disturbing.
Customization is very popular in pvp these days and the extent of this change was not required to achieve balance.
If the goal was to solve the balance problem created by the differences between players with different numbers of tuning points then the obvious and most direct solution was to simply give everyone all of the tuning points right out of the gate.
That way, everyone is working with the same number of tuning points.
Balance is achieved, the customization tuning points brought is retained.

So far no mention of what (if any) sort of replacement to that part of customization is coming to fill the gap.

I am very displeased.

That would not solve balance. We might have more choice, but it's really an illusion as I see it because there are a few optimal builds that you would be stupid not to use.  Anything other than these optimal builds, and you're not as effective as you could possibly be. I'll quote somebody who said it just right IMO.  It just so happens to be Xacius, the top player in Hawken.

Xacius, on , said:


The problem with the current tuning system is that most mechs have an "optimal" build.  Regardless of your playstyle, if you aren't using this "optimal" build, chances are you're not contributing as much to your team as someone else who is using the optimal build.  

Let's explore the Raider, for instance.   The Raider has access to hydraulics, boost thrusters, fuel tank, and fuel generator, as well as the three primary tuning options (weapons loader, heatsinks, armor).  

No Raider in their right mind is going to forsake boost thrusters in favor of another tuning option.  It's simply the best option.  Hydraulics is debatable, but faster walk/run speeds are almost as important as faster boost speeds.  Through the same logic, we can assume that no Rocketeer in their right mind is going to forsake Air Dynamics.  It's simply the best option for the class.  

The tuning system gave players the idea that they had some sort of control over how their mech performed.  When closely examined, it was clear that players with the "optimal" setups were able to perform better than players using their alternative "preferred" setups.  This led players to think that "Oh, I can build my Berserker like my Infiltrator and still do just as well," while in reality the two mechs function entirely different from one-another.  This new system, coupled with proper mech advertisement, will give players a clearly-defined role for the mech that they're choosing to buy/play.  Zerkers will be great for air combat.  Scouts will be fast on the ground. etc...

By removing tuning from our control, it makes mechs easier to balance overall because then the devs don't have to account for the thousands of different combinations of tuning points that could throw off a preset balance or role that a mech is supposed to have.  Balance is certainly possible with the variations of tuning points, but it's very inefficient to try to balance every single different tuning combination for all the mechs; it can't really be done in a reasonable amount of time.  To remedy this, they are removing the choice of tuning and presetting it so mechs will be more balanced, and rounds will be determined moreso by skill rather than a mere tuning build.

I didn't say it would solve "balance" overall. Overall balance is achieved by several things all working properly together. I said it would solve "the balance problem created by the differences in between players with different numbers of tuning points." That is just one aspect of balance.

The reality is that both balance AND customization are important to creating a thriving pvp community in today's market. If a company leans so far towards one that they leave the other behind the playerbase tends not to grow enough.
So my point is-Doing what is easiest for balance isn't always the best option.

Also, the goal of having what others consider an optimal build is not one that everybody shares. The illusion would be to think these "optimal builds" are all that get used on a daily basis.
We need to remember that only a small portion of any playerbase is really going to be the top competitors. Most players are low to mid level and will never rise that high. Forcing everyone into using "optimal builds" by taking away player choice is a flawed design. There are many players who enjoy using uncommon builds. They will never be the best competitors but they will help fill out the community. For many players, figuring out a build that works well enough for their playstyle is half of the fun. Their money is just as beneficial to Hawken as everyone elses.
And if they end up going elsewhere to find a game that lets them make more choices about how they play.....

[burns1124]

ghostryker, on January 14 2014 - 12:17 PM, said:

I didn't say it would solve "balance" overall. Overall balance is achieved by several things all working properly together. I said it would solve "the balance problem created by the differences in between players with different numbers of tuning points." That is just one aspect of balance.

The reality is that both balance AND customization are important to creating a thriving pvp community in today's market. If a company leans so far towards one that they leave the other behind the playerbase tends not to grow enough.
So my point is-Doing what is easiest for balance isn't always the best option.

Also, the goal of having what others consider an optimal build is not one that everybody shares. The illusion would be to think these "optimal builds" are all that get used on a daily basis.
We need to remember that only a small portion of any playerbase is really going to be the top competitors. Most players are low to mid level and will never rise that high. Forcing everyone into using "optimal builds" by taking away player choice is a flawed design. There are many players who enjoy using uncommon builds. They will never be the best competitors but they will help fill out the community. For many players, figuring out a build that works well enough for their playstyle is half of the fun. Their money is just as beneficial to Hawken as everyone elses.
And if they end up going elsewhere to find a game that lets them make more choices about how they play.....

So we should let people who does not understand the difference between a good and a bad build just use whatever in a competitive game_  I think the approach of making a preset (or many presets) is better than giving people carte blanch to fuzzy bunny up their mech, then form opinions/make forum posts/kick and scream that X mech is UP because they don't know how to optimally tune the mech.

Too many people don't even know how to move and shoot simultaneously (even at level 30) and you really think that giving them "customization" is justified when they get crushed by someone that does know the mechanics and meta of the game _  Sure there's some whacky builds out there, that might work in low/mid tiers.  That doesn't change the fact that the tuning system did not really give the choice or customization that you think it does.  

Look at the categories, none of them aside from Air-Dynamics really change how you play a mech, and all the people in this thread making cases that X weapon on Y mech requires Z tuning build is not playing their mech as well as they could if they went for a more accepted build, and adjusted their play style accordingly.  The only outliers could be argued for this are Mini-Flak users, which overheat much faster than any other Primary iirc.  Even that argument could be easily countered by switching to another weapon option and practicing a new play style.

Hollow customization for the sake of making the uninformed player base "feel special" is stupid, and I'm glad it's going away for a more balanced approach.

[ghostryker]

burns1124, on January 14 2014 - 12:57 PM, said:

So we should let people who does not understand the difference between a good and a bad build just use whatever in a competitive game_  

I think the approach of making a preset (or many presets) is better than giving people carte blanch to fuzzy bunny up their mech, then form opinions/make forum posts/kick and scream that X mech is UP because they don't know how to optimally tune the mech.

Too many people don't even know how to move and shoot simultaneously (even at level 30) and you really think that giving them "customization" is justified when they get crushed by someone that does know the mechanics and meta of the game _  Sure there's some whacky builds out there, that might work in low/mid tiers.  That doesn't change the fact that the tuning system did not really give the choice or customization that you think it does.  

Look at the categories, none of them aside from Air-Dynamics really change how you play a mech, and all the people in this thread making cases that X weapon on Y mech requires Z tuning build is not playing their mech as well as they could if they went for a more accepted build, and adjusted their play style accordingly.  The only outliers could be argued for this are Mini-Flak users, which overheat much faster than any other Primary iirc.  Even that argument could be easily countered by switching to another weapon option and practicing a new play style.

Hollow customization for the sake of making the uninformed player base "feel special" is stupid, and I'm glad it's going away for a more balanced approach.

You can get into whatever other stuff you like but at the end of the day a game needs players to be successful. Happy players keep playing. period.
the ultimate question is, and will always be, what makes players happy.
_______________________________________________________________
For some people....creating a build is part of that equation.
When those people feel like they got to think about what they like, sort it out, then they like that build, they feel adequately effective with it and enjoy playing the game. THAT IS A GOOD THING. Why_ Because it's players playing the game.

Also-The whole point of a matchmaking system is to ensure that people of different effectiveness levels (through various skill sets and build efficiency) get to play with people of appropriate level. Noobs should fight noobs. people with bad builds should fight other people with bad builds. The best should fight the best.
When a matchmaking system works-A bunch of players who are "doing it wrong" should not effect the players who are "doing it right."

According to some players the customization level brought on by the tuning system has had a meaningful impact on their experience. For many, it is not hollow, it is part of the reason they played the game.

Look now. We can have a different opinion on whether Hawken should have the tuning system or not. That's fine. No hard feelings. But let's not get it twisted. Different players like different things. The hard part is making a game that will appease enough different people that it can make a profit. If Hawken can do that without extra layers of customization then so be it. But then again it may need it. Who knows.

And I do see the concerns about people making a bad build and thinking its the mech itself. But then there is also the concern of people playing a mech, not liking its forced build, and being able to make the required adjustments to have a good time.

Again-my primary point is that both customization and balance are important.
However they get there, both play a role in successful pvp.

And btw- designing a game based on affecting how players will feel is never stupid.
We aren't really saving the world here, we aren't really risking our lives. We are playing giant robots in an imaginary sandbox. Games are just light shows that only matter because of how we feel about them.

[Silverfire]

At the end of the day, players tuning their own mechs might not even matter.  Do remember that this is merely the tip of the iceberg.  A dev stated that this is only maybe 5% of the changes coming (progression system change and tuning system removal). That's hardly even any of what is yet to come in February.  Therefore, I fully expect the play of internals and items (which ones you carry, etc) to become much deeper in order to counter balance the loss of self tuning and create much deeper game play. In my eyes, internals should be the ones changing up gameplay; internals should be the thing that makes your mech a "wacky build."  Keep in mind we haven't seen everything yet, so let's not pass judgment on the tuning system removal.  One form of customization is being removed, yes, but we don't know if it's being replaced with two or three additional customization options.  Wait and see, is what my final say is.

Edited by Silverfire, January 14 2014 - 03:35 PM.

[ghostryker]

Silverfire, on January 14 2014 - 03:34 PM, said:

At the end of the day, players tuning their own mechs might not even matter.  Do remember that this is merely the tip of the iceberg.  A dev stated that this is only maybe 5% of the changes coming (progression system change and tuning system removal). That's hardly even any of what is yet to come in February.  Therefore, I fully expect the play of internals and items (which ones you carry, etc) to become much deeper in order to counter balance the loss of self tuning and create much deeper game play. In my eyes, internals should be the ones changing up gameplay; internals should be the thing that makes your mech a "wacky build."  Keep in mind we haven't seen everything yet, so let's not pass judgment on the tuning system removal.  One form of customization is being removed, yes, but we don't know if it's being replaced with two or three additional customization options.  Wait and see, is what my final say is.

Indeed we don't. Though I haven't heard the slightest whisper of other potential customization options...or that they are even considering any.
So far they make it sound like the goal is lesson customization for the sake of balance. And like I said....both matter.

But hey. If and when they offer a different style of customization that replaces what we are loosing here that is more than fine with me.

Wait and see is always wise. I'm not storming off and uninstalling the game or anything like that. LOL. I just point out when I do or don't like the content of an announcement.

[fingerknitter]

burns1124, on January 14 2014 - 12:57 PM, said:

ghostryker, on January 14 2014 - 12:17 PM, said:

I didn't say it would solve "balance" overall. Overall balance is achieved by several things all working properly together. I said it would solve "the balance problem created by the differences in between players with different numbers of tuning points." That is just one aspect of balance.

The reality is that both balance AND customization are important to creating a thriving pvp community in today's market. If a company leans so far towards one that they leave the other behind the playerbase tends not to grow enough.
So my point is-Doing what is easiest for balance isn't always the best option.

Also, the goal of having what others consider an optimal build is not one that everybody shares. The illusion would be to think these "optimal builds" are all that get used on a daily basis.
We need to remember that only a small portion of any playerbase is really going to be the top competitors. Most players are low to mid level and will never rise that high. Forcing everyone into using "optimal builds" by taking away player choice is a flawed design. There are many players who enjoy using uncommon builds. They will never be the best competitors but they will help fill out the community. For many players, figuring out a build that works well enough for their playstyle is half of the fun. Their money is just as beneficial to Hawken as everyone elses.
And if they end up going elsewhere to find a game that lets them make more choices about how they play.....

So we should let people who does not understand the difference between a good and a bad build just use whatever in a competitive game_  I think the approach of making a preset (or many presets) is better than giving people carte blanch to fuzzy bunny up their mech, then form opinions/make forum posts/kick and scream that X mech is UP because they don't know how to optimally tune the mech.

Too many people don't even know how to move and shoot simultaneously (even at level 30) and you really think that giving them "customization" is justified when they get crushed by someone that does know the mechanics and meta of the game _  Sure there's some whacky builds out there, that might work in low/mid tiers.  That doesn't change the fact that the tuning system did not really give the choice or customization that you think it does.  

Look at the categories, none of them aside from Air-Dynamics really change how you play a mech, and all the people in this thread making cases that X weapon on Y mech requires Z tuning build is not playing their mech as well as they could if they went for a more accepted build, and adjusted their play style accordingly.  The only outliers could be argued for this are Mini-Flak users, which overheat much faster than any other Primary iirc.  Even that argument could be easily countered by switching to another weapon option and practicing a new play style.

Hollow customization for the sake of making the uninformed player base "feel special" is stupid, and I'm glad it's going away for a more balanced approach.

I do have to say, I am going to miss my predator with maxed out weapons loader, armor, and the rest in mobility. With the breacher, limiting myself to charged shots, I love it. Having a fixed tuning system for all three weapons (and I only use the breacher as it is the dominant choice in my eyes) is going to have wasted tuning points for a breacher player in heatsinks I bet.

The only condolences I receive for my pain are that other mechs will be similarly non-optimal tuned for every weapon as well.

Ideally, we would get tuning load-outs, but it honestly won't be necessary as long as ALL the mechs do not get OPTIMAL performance tuning for one weapon type and instead receive tuning points to define a role, feel, or personality to a mech class.

[Beefsweat]

RunaPanda, on January 14 2014 - 01:28 AM, said:

Beefsweat, on January 13 2014 - 10:45 PM, said:

^ Save your cash. New mechs are coming very soon.

Question is, is that real cash or in game cash, since as it says free mechs are going away. Sounds to me like it's being made in a pay to play fashion, nearly freemium as they now deem it.

Also does this mean we'll finally get rid of this pilot level bs that limits us to the servers we play_ Since there's hardly ever any for the lv 30 crowd.

Lastly, taking tuning points away is taking away from user customization in the most crucial sense. I like to tune my mechs to my play styles per mech, I don't want no cookie cutter predefined fuzzy bunny that you "think" should be good. This alone is forcing people to play how you want them to play not how they want to play. As if forcing people to zerg isn't bad enough now your forcing us to play each mech how the devs think we should.

You'll still be able to buy mechs with HC or MC just like you can now. Not sure what you mean by "free mechs going away" since the free test drives are coming back, too.

[fingerknitter]

Beefsweat, on January 14 2014 - 05:02 PM, said:

RunaPanda, on January 14 2014 - 01:28 AM, said:

Beefsweat, on January 13 2014 - 10:45 PM, said:

^ Save your cash. New mechs are coming very soon.

Question is, is that real cash or in game cash, since as it says free mechs are going away. Sounds to me like it's being made in a pay to play fashion, nearly freemium as they now deem it.

Also does this mean we'll finally get rid of this pilot level bs that limits us to the servers we play_ Since there's hardly ever any for the lv 30 crowd.

Lastly, taking tuning points away is taking away from user customization in the most crucial sense. I like to tune my mechs to my play styles per mech, I don't want no cookie cutter predefined fuzzy bunny that you "think" should be good. This alone is forcing people to play how you want them to play not how they want to play. As if forcing people to zerg isn't bad enough now your forcing us to play each mech how the devs think we should.

You'll still be able to buy mechs with HC or MC just like you can now. Not sure what you mean by "free mechs going away" since the free test drives are coming back, too.

I think he means after maxing out the rank of a mech, being awarded with the next one in the tree for free. I don't think he realizes how much HC will be saved from not being forced through those mech rank "gates" anymore, which can easily be put towards a new mech now

[Darguner]

I like the changes for the new patch of Hawken. But since ascension am still waiting for the crosshair fix and the option to change the radar position and the only mayor things i see are graphics changes, instead of balancing and adding mechanics. The only thing about the non tuning points maybe will affect faster mechs like always the freaking scout making unbalanced matches specially against heavyes it will be like returning to "victory is decided by how many faster mechs you have".

Other fixes should be like Techs that shots the deconstruct weapon through walls and another shoothing through objects.

Also the Reaper it was a versatile mobile assassin at first place so you can do CQC and playing and sniper role, post ascension get downed if you like sniper get better a sharpshooter.

I want to see the functional cockpit back, now is just cosmetic you only focus on the radar, health and fuel bars. Duplicated mechs can be sell or will be only as a cosmetic in the background_.

How much long Hawken will be a beta_, is like neverending.

[Ordinance]

Aregon, on January 09 2014 - 10:40 PM, said:

Quote

I like to play Reaper in CQC and use Air-Infil. Choice is always good and lack of it will just make Hawken another run-of-the-mill FPS...
You use the Reaper in CQC_!_ Are you mad_!_ IT IS A F*CKING SNIPER!

And to say Hawken will be another "run-for-the-mill FPS" is like saying "This cheese doesn`t include tomatoes and that is why it will suck!"!

the fact that its intended role as a sniper actually has little to do with reaper being a decent cqc choice. The fact that all primaries and specials are all hitscan and have an extremely high effective range and maximum range(barring the botched am-sar) makes it a great choice for consistent dmg output, wether it be burst or sustained fire.

That, and reaper doesn't suffer self sustained splash damage from explosives, which makes it another decent choice for cqc, provided the pilot has the 'skills' to be consistent with hitscan weapons.


I feel like one of the problems that Hawken may face is that trying to maintain balance by enforcing specific roles can become ambiguious when certain weapons(mainly hitscan like slug and ke-sabot)already innately have more versatility than other weapons.

I honestly don't know enough about how to balance game mechanics in a game like this, so we'll just have to wait and see what happens.

[Ordinance]

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