288 replies to this topic

[Xacius]

Saturnine, on January 24 2014 - 02:57 PM, said:

Adianoeta, on January 24 2014 - 02:00 PM, said:

What's really interesting about this, though, is that there's nothing special about me.  If I recall correctly, I think I sat somewhere in between the low-to-mid 2,000s when MMR was around, so I wasn't an amazing player at all.

Just saw this and wanted to point something out. 2000 MMR is actually not average at all - it's far above average, at the very very least you'd be in the top 5% of players, if that was in fact your mmr. You can actually still check what it is, though, if you friend a player named scrimbot , and send them a message saying "!mmr", it'll tell you what your current MMR is.

2,000 is the new 1800.

[Silverfire]

Xacius, on January 24 2014 - 03:17 PM, said:

Saturnine, on January 24 2014 - 02:57 PM, said:

Adianoeta, on January 24 2014 - 02:00 PM, said:

What's really interesting about this, though, is that there's nothing special about me.  If I recall correctly, I think I sat somewhere in between the low-to-mid 2,000s when MMR was around, so I wasn't an amazing player at all.

Just saw this and wanted to point something out. 2000 MMR is actually not average at all - it's far above average, at the very very least you'd be in the top 5% of players, if that was in fact your mmr. You can actually still check what it is, though, if you friend a player named scrimbot , and send them a message saying "!mmr", it'll tell you what your current MMR is.

2,000 is the new 1800.

And here I am, finally proud I broke 1850-1900 range...sigh.

[Saturnine]

For srs tho. Average MMR is approximately 1459. and standard deviation is 171. 2000 is a lot higher than a lot of people here on the forums would lead you to think.

[OdinTheWise]

I was around 2000 mmr before assention  but now I am down to 1750

[DragoXXVIII]

SoldierHobbes11, on January 16 2014 - 05:53 PM, said:

I'm fine with these changes, except for the removal of the tuning system. While I understand all the reasoning behind it, I really don't think that's grounds for removing it alltogether.

Now I can understand why people would want it gone. The issue is balance. Some players feel that the way the tuning system currently works is completely in favor of veteran players, making older players more powerful, while the newer players have to fight with bear skins and stone knives. One solution is to give all the points from the start, so that way everyone is on an even playing field. A higher level player wouldn't have more points to buff their mechs than a new player who just picked up the game.

However, this ignores the vast amount of gamers who don't want to have to go through the trouble of a making a loadout, and preffer the game be determined by skill rather than the gear you grind for. But of course, there are those who enjoy making a loadout to fit their style of play and enjoy the customization.

I believe I know of a way to keep tuning in the game in such a way that allow people to pick up a mech and just use it as is, or to customize it to their own liking while maintaining the balance between new and veteran players.

I personally love the tuning system and enjoy the mental effort that goes into tuning my mech to opperate how I want it. I'm currently level 23, so I have a decent amount of points to work with. That being said, I do see it as an unfair advantage against newer players because the point allocation ONLY makes me stronger and unbalances power in my favor, alone.

so in basic concept as an example in this game logic useing a real life situation

what is being said is a 1st grader(new player) should be just as strong as the strongest man in the world (veteran player) and be able to compeete on par with them from the get go

no i don't think so

progression is the process of getting stronger not  just being the strongest to start what is the point of  leveling up if nothing comes of it_
at this point all it doser is create another doom/unreal tournament where everything is purely cosmetic

makeing mechs  your own is a good portion of why  alot of people play mech combat games  if i want a carbon copy pice of equipment ill go play cod or world of tanks or something like that. i came to hawken because i herd it was a worth while game with a wide veriaty of customeization from looks to preformance  and a progression system that let you upgrade the mechs further.

ill stick around to see what changes are being made and how  but frankly atm it dosn't look promiseing

was hopeing this would turn into a game close to armored core  but guess that was a let down

Edited by DragoXXVIII, January 24 2014 - 06:25 PM.

[LoC_TR]

DragoXXVIII, on January 24 2014 - 06:23 PM, said:

was hopeing this would turn into a game close to armored core  but guess that was a let down

I think pretty much all the previous responses to your comments have pretty much covered this, what i will say is this: "leveling" in the February patch is more of a sign of the time you put in. What comes of it_ Well if we all start with equal strength mechs, don't you think that skill will be highlighted here instead of the level_ Newer players cant make excuses for not being able to stand toe-to-toe with a more skilled player just because they don't have the levels/equipment they do.

While i like the customization in armored core and chromehounds and other mech games like that. It's not really why i play this one. I play it because it can be extremely competitive and takes skill to play. Although i do enjoy stylizing my mech so i pay for the MC to make em look pertty.

Not even sure why you are comparing this game to warframe it's not even a similar game by any stretch. More like how LoL is set up, look how popular that is. Anyways i hope you get over yourself and try to enjoy the game. enough complaining from you already.

[DragoXXVIII]

LoC_TR, on January 24 2014 - 09:10 PM, said:

DragoXXVIII, on January 24 2014 - 06:23 PM, said:

was hopeing this would turn into a game close to armored core  but guess that was a let down

Not even sure why you are comparing this game to warframe it's not even a similar game by any stretch.

i was told to go play warframe if i wanted progression

and further more what you fail to see is the common scence of my arguement

while i understand that balance is wanted and desired for all players just saddeling everyone with the same thing  is not balance that is restriction under the guise of balance

if you want balance imo the process of tuneing needs refinement not removel

this for all intenceive purposes is a war game and war is not fair to anyone and as war goes its the concept of "you have a big gun so i will develope armor to protect me fron that gun.you made the armor to defend against my gun so ill develope armor piercing ammo......" see where this  is going_

if you want a "sport game" say so i can suggest plenty like mnc(monday night combat)or TF2, Brawl busters there ar plenty of them my issue is everyone wanting to make an amazeing game like this just another vanilla game  for the "new" players

if you could  personalize  the mech type(light ,medium,heavy),weapons(both primary and secondary) and mech skill that would be a great aspect i think a larger  veriaty of mechs would hit the battlefield instead of all the cookie cutter mechs out there and could very well adjust the field balance in ways that are far from expected

if tuneing points need removeal fine but make it so we can upgrade some way without feeling the School uniform feeling
i mean seriousely thats like a beauty contest between all the smurfs that look alike

Edited by DragoXXVIII, January 25 2014 - 12:58 AM.

[Adianoeta]

Saturnine, on January 24 2014 - 02:57 PM, said:

Adianoeta, on January 24 2014 - 02:00 PM, said:

What's really interesting about this, though, is that there's nothing special about me.  If I recall correctly, I think I sat somewhere in between the low-to-mid 2,000s when MMR was around, so I wasn't an amazing player at all.

Just saw this and wanted to point something out. 2000 MMR is actually not average at all - it's far above average, at the very very least you'd be in the top 5% of players, if that was in fact your mmr. You can actually still check what it is, though, if you friend a player named scrimbot , and send them a message saying "!mmr", it'll tell you what your current MMR is.

My fault for not providing some context to this.  I was only in that range because it was around when Open Beta had started and MMR was first initiated.  There were a lot of newer players that were building up my MMR.  Some older players too, the ones that played casually, but mostly newer players were the bread and butter for the MMR boost.  I vaguely recall playing with you and Xacius, if that helps any, but again, I wasn't really on the skill level as either of you - I was there because there was a lack of experienced players to more evenly distribute the MMR curve.

Without having looked at the MMR via scrimbot, I already know my MMR isn't above 2K.  I'm out of practice and Hawken's not the same game from a year ago.  The Air Dash alone is overwhelming for me, although, to be fair, it is wildly fun.  I goofed off so much with it that I ended one of the TDM matches with stats at 1-11-5, or something like that (the fun I had was worth it).  Furthermore, I was playing with the assumption that MMR was no longer available, so I also played with reckless abandon too =D.  So I've brought my MMR down artificially, I'm sure.

Of more pertinence, though, is that the players that I would have once dominated with a vanilla mech are likely to turn the tables on me now, even if I had stuck with Hawken through the past year.  As their MMR would have risen above 2K, I'm sure mine would have been pushed down to sub 2K.  I was a mediocre player and I still am - at the time, it was the circumstances that placed me at 2K+ MMR, not something that I did.

With that, I'd like to segue back into my main point: taking a fairly new mech and topping the round isn't something that was unique to myself, to players with an MMR of 2K+ or even to when Hawken was still a nascent Open Beta title.  I still see players bringing in mechs that aren't maxed out and consistently topping the scoreboard until the get bored and leave the match.  So, to address the hot potato that's been thrown around this thread, it seems that the axiom, "The artist makes the tool, not the tool the artist" is still true.  If the late Jimmy Hendrix were still alive and you were to give him a cheap, starter guitar, just out of the box, he would still play better with it than you or I ever would with a Fender Strat that he had customized himself.  Customization in Hawken is just another tool.  Our Hawken "artists" will still sculpt the landscape with the slagged carcasses of our mechs, regardless of what happens to the Tuning Points system.

Xacius, on January 24 2014 - 03:17 PM, said:

Saturnine, on January 24 2014 - 02:57 PM, said:

Adianoeta, on January 24 2014 - 02:00 PM, said:

What's really interesting about this, though, is that there's nothing special about me.  If I recall correctly, I think I sat somewhere in between the low-to-mid 2,000s when MMR was around, so I wasn't an amazing player at all.

Just saw this and wanted to point something out. 2000 MMR is actually not average at all - it's far above average, at the very very least you'd be in the top 5% of players, if that was in fact your mmr. You can actually still check what it is, though, if you friend a player named scrimbot , and send them a message saying "!mmr", it'll tell you what your current MMR is.

2,000 is the new 1800.

I guess I haven't declined as much as I thought.  Just checked scrimbot.  I'm sitting at 1,712 right now.  Regardless, I still take up the mantle of "mediocre" or even "below average".  I'd rather have fun and not worry about a number, rather than be that grumpy player that cries about their stats (kind of defeats the point of playing a game, yeah_).


<hr>


This is coming from left field and has nothing to do with anything written above: since we have a Cupcake mech, can we please get a "Cookie" mech and an "Ice Cream" mech_  Adhesive & Meteor, please make this happen!

[Adianoeta]

Woops.  Don't know how to put in a horizontal rule in the forums.  Above post is looking goofy.  Somebody, please cure me of my stupid_  Thought the <hr> tag would work and accidentally hit the "Post" button, when I meant to hit the "Preview" button.  Searched for "Formatting" in the forums, but nothing came up.  Apologies for those face-palming right now.

[Beefsweat]

DragoXXVIII, on January 24 2014 - 11:17 PM, said:

if you could  personalize  the mech type(light ,medium,heavy),weapons(both primary and secondary) and mech skill that would be a great aspect i think a larger  veriaty of mechs would hit the battlefield instead of all the cookie cutter mechs out there and could very well adjust the field balance in ways that are far from expected

Clearly you were not around during the prototype phases of the game as they had this exact customization system, or you just can't understand why the system was (almost immediately) scrapped. Exactly the opposite happened - players gravitated toward one or two mechs, one or two abilities and one set of weapons because there was no reason to go with anything else, and balancing a huge number of combinations like that (another reason why the tuning system was removed) is simply impractical and not fun for anyone to experience.

Edited by Beefsweat, January 25 2014 - 09:01 PM.

[ÖdeMärz]

Removal of tuning points, although not entirely unambiguous, is the worst possible idea according to me, and about 95% of the poeple I have played with and talked to, about this. Gaining points, maybe, but being able to tune a mech based on distribution of a set amount of tuning points is the very first tool to adapt game features to individual playing style.

Sidenote again: why the overwhelming hysteria about balance_ In an ultimately balanced, dystopian communist, but well possible future of this game, with these apparently ideologically fashionable "balancing" ideas reaching the maximum, everyone has the same mech, the same controls, the same weapons, perhaps even has to buy the exact same computer to be compatible. Noone has their own style, their own mech, or even their own name, or their own fate. None can have their own mistakes either, by definition - just make it sure you don't actually exchange the whole game for the idea of "balance", in a neatly collective idiocy of identical, ultimately equalising sub-society, perhaps even punishing the naturally more talented in some way, say epileptic flashing coded if one acquires scores in a game too fast, in its utter struggle to create more... balance.

In total balance, towards apparently what efforts are made, there is no motion, no evolution. Ultimate balance, on its own, is the end product of a decaying, even backward progress. Think about it. And I hope the developers realise that in an completely balanced game, noone can actually win or loose. The game does it instead of us, including dreaming, ideating, experimenting, and ultimately playing instead of us.

Edited by ÖdeMärz, January 26 2014 - 02:44 AM.

[neo0031]

Saturnine, on January 24 2014 - 02:57 PM, said:

Adianoeta, on January 24 2014 - 02:00 PM, said:

What's really interesting about this, though, is that there's nothing special about me.  If I recall correctly, I think I sat somewhere in between the low-to-mid 2,000s when MMR was around, so I wasn't an amazing player at all.

Just saw this and wanted to point something out. 2000 MMR is actually not average at all - it's far above average, at the very very least you'd be in the top 5% of players, if that was in fact your mmr. You can actually still check what it is, though, if you friend a player named scrimbot , and send them a message saying "!mmr", it'll tell you what your current MMR is.

Thanks for the tip, Saturnine. Been looking to find out for a while.

Well fuzzy bunny, my MMR is way lower than what I expected, as well as a lot lower than pre-Ascension. But I have even been playing better... Welp.

[PartyTime]

mmr doesn't mean much until actual balance comes to the game.  Clearly there are ballparks where good players lay but anybody can bloat their mmr if they play the right mechs and ignore the bad ones. I don't see why anybody would want to, mine was 19 something last time I checked and late night i get to stare at all the greyed out full servers while the rest are empty.  Considering sinking my mmr on purpose just so i can actually play the game when I want, but I won't be playing regularly again until this patch comes and I know what I'm getting into. Of course technically I haven't been playing regularly since they restricted weapons so much.

Edited by PartyTime, January 26 2014 - 03:52 PM.

[DragoXXVIII]

Beefsweat, on January 25 2014 - 09:00 PM, said:

DragoXXVIII, on January 24 2014 - 11:17 PM, said:

if you could  personalize  the mech type(light ,medium,heavy),weapons(both primary and secondary) and mech skill that would be a great aspect i think a larger  veriaty of mechs would hit the battlefield instead of all the cookie cutter mechs out there and could very well adjust the field balance in ways that are far from expected

Clearly you were not around during the prototype phases of the game as they had this exact customization system, or you just can't understand why the system was (almost immediately) scrapped. Exactly the opposite happened - players gravitated toward one or two mechs, one or two abilities and one set of weapons because there was no reason to go with anything else, and balancing a huge number of combinations like that (another reason why the tuning system was removed) is simply impractical and not fun for anyone to experience.

you are actually corrects as i only started a little bit ago as was a suggestion of a friend of mine to give it a look. and no i don't know much of the cbt days here but i feel makeing this game like every other sportish pvp fps game is only gonna make this a vanilla game  that dies out  fairly quick imo the devs should take a step into the uncharted areas of games and mak a fun  stand alone game as Digital Extreams did with warframe... am i saying make a mecha version of Warframe ...no im not. i am saying that  Meteor Studios should make this a stand alone game with no others like it as DE did with warframe witch means lots of options need to be put in

[Sylhiri]

DragoXXVIII, on January 26 2014 - 08:52 PM, said:

...imo the devs should take a step into the uncharted areas of games and mak a fun  stand alone game as Digital Extreams did with warframe... am i saying make a mecha version of Warframe ...no im not. i am saying that  Meteor Studios should make this a stand alone game with no others like it as DE did with warframe witch means lots of options need to be put in

Isn't Warframe a PvE game_ PvE is generally way easier to balance then PvP.

[Dackstrus]

[HWK]ZamboniChaos, on January 08 2014 - 08:23 PM, said:

Reworking Mech Ranks

Mech ranks are another feature that received some adjustment. Instead of acting as a monetized gating system, mech ranks will simply act as a representation of your play time with a mech and an avenue for unlocking cool customizations and weapon options. The ability to purchase ability upgrades has also been removed.

Removal of Tuning Points

Another major change is our decision to remove Tuning Points from being used by players. Now, each mech's strength will be determined ahead of time and will not change as a pilot progresses.  Instead of being required to advance through pilot progression to acquire tuning points, players will have access to a fully balanced experience right out of the gate. The system still exists and we're able to use it in the background to really balance out each mech but it will no longer be something that players add points to over time.

Removal of Mech Unlocks

Since we've removed the ability to purchase mech ranks, we're also removing the free mech unlock that players would receive after reaching max rank. The reasoning behind this is simply based on monetization and economy. Previously, the cost of mech ranks contributed to the total cost of a single mech. This enabled us to provide mech unlocks to those that reached max mech rank. Now that mech ranks no longer have a cost associated with them, mech unlocks have been removed and the cost of each mech has been adjusted accordingly.

Bolded gives me many issues... I think... I believe this may be the end of Hawken for me.

I've stuck it out as long as i could, Told you where i saw you were going wrong and.. Nothings changed for the better.  And you've continued down the slope i warned you of, And i just can't summon up the effort now.

This isn't a rage post, Or a goodbye forever, I'll peek in from time to time but.. I just don't see myself playing anymore.

[[HWK]ZamboniChaos]

Dackstrus, on January 27 2014 - 06:25 PM, said:

[HWK]ZamboniChaos, on January 08 2014 - 08:23 PM, said:

Reworking Mech Ranks

Mech ranks are another feature that received some adjustment. Instead of acting as a monetized gating system, mech ranks will simply act as a representation of your play time with a mech and an avenue for unlocking cool customizations and weapon options. The ability to purchase ability upgrades has also been removed.

Removal of Tuning Points

Another major change is our decision to remove Tuning Points from being used by players. Now, each mech's strength will be determined ahead of time and will not change as a pilot progresses.  Instead of being required to advance through pilot progression to acquire tuning points, players will have access to a fully balanced experience right out of the gate. The system still exists and we're able to use it in the background to really balance out each mech but it will no longer be something that players add points to over time.

Removal of Mech Unlocks

Since we've removed the ability to purchase mech ranks, we're also removing the free mech unlock that players would receive after reaching max rank. The reasoning behind this is simply based on monetization and economy. Previously, the cost of mech ranks contributed to the total cost of a single mech. This enabled us to provide mech unlocks to those that reached max mech rank. Now that mech ranks no longer have a cost associated with them, mech unlocks have been removed and the cost of each mech has been adjusted accordingly.

Bolded gives me many issues... I think... I believe this may be the end of Hawken for me.

I've stuck it out as long as i could, Told you where i saw you were going wrong and.. Nothings changed for the better.  And you've continued down the slope i warned you of, And i just can't summon up the effort now.

This isn't a rage post, Or a goodbye forever, I'll peek in from time to time but.. I just don't see myself playing anymore.

Well, I hope you'll take the time to try the changes before making your decision based off of 3 bullet points. Either way, we appreciate your support!

[DragoXXVIII]

Sylhiri, on January 27 2014 - 12:25 PM, said:

DragoXXVIII, on January 26 2014 - 08:52 PM, said:

...imo the devs should take a step into the uncharted areas of games and mak a fun  stand alone game as Digital Extreams did with warframe... am i saying make a mecha version of Warframe ...no im not. i am saying that  Meteor Studios should make this a stand alone game with no others like it as DE did with warframe witch means lots of options need to be put in

Isn't Warframe a PvE game_ PvE is generally way easier to balance then PvP.

yes warframe is pve but its not always easy to balance content out  m ore times than offten an unnoticed power creep occurs  then you have to go back to old content  and update that to balance evrything out yet again and again like warframe dose  every so many updates  because they drop so many mini updates  between  major updates but there is also pvp in warframe its just not the focus of the game now if for instance ( hypotheticaly dreaming) M studios  developed a bit of a story but focused  more to the pvp side of things i think they could  pull out of this bit of a nose dive they are takeing ... now i say  add pve  due to the fact that if they can manage a balance/updrade system for pve it can easly transelate to pvp balance so with the theory of pve= easy balance... to grasp hold of  a balanced pve would be to grasp hold of  a balanced pvp

[DragoXXVIII]

now  that aside an idea that came to mind... in the mode  selection  screen they could add a  bare bones mode  check box  witch would essentially  dissable tuneing in each mode by option of the player  and group those players with only other players that have that box maked aka bare bones base preformance untuned mechs

letting those who wish to fight useing tuneing with others that use tuneing by personal choise

[fingerknitter]

DragoXXVIII, on January 28 2014 - 05:38 PM, said:

Sylhiri, on January 27 2014 - 12:25 PM, said:

DragoXXVIII, on January 26 2014 - 08:52 PM, said:

...imo the devs should take a step into the uncharted areas of games and mak a fun  stand alone game as Digital Extreams did with warframe... am i saying make a mecha version of Warframe ...no im not. i am saying that  Meteor Studios should make this a stand alone game with no others like it as DE did with warframe witch means lots of options need to be put in

Isn't Warframe a PvE game_ PvE is generally way easier to balance then PvP.

yes warframe is pve but its not always easy to balance content out  m ore times than offten an unnoticed power creep occurs  then you have to go back to old content  and update that to balance evrything out yet again and again like warframe dose  every so many updates  because they drop so many mini updates  between  major updates but there is also pvp in warframe its just not the focus of the game now if for instance ( hypotheticaly dreaming) M studios  developed a bit of a story but focused  more to the pvp side of things i think they could  pull out of this bit of a nose dive they are takeing ... now i say  add pve  due to the fact that if they can manage a balance/updrade system for pve it can easly transelate to pvp balance so with the theory of pve= easy balance... to grasp hold of  a balanced pve would be to grasp hold of  a balanced pvp

(o___0)

Can I have whatever you are on_