288 replies to this topic

[LoC_TR]

Spoiler

Ordinance, on January 15 2014 - 02:58 AM, said:

Aregon, on January 09 2014 - 10:40 PM, said:

Quote

I like to play Reaper in CQC and use Air-Infil. Choice is always good and lack of it will just make Hawken another run-of-the-mill FPS...
You use the Reaper in CQC_!_ Are you mad_!_ IT IS A F*CKING SNIPER!

And to say Hawken will be another "run-for-the-mill FPS" is like saying "This cheese doesn`t include tomatoes and that is why it will suck!"!

the fact that its intended role as a sniper actually has little to do with reaper being a decent cqc choice. The fact that all primaries and specials are all hitscan and have an extremely high effective range and maximum range(barring the botched am-sar) makes it a great choice for consistent dmg output, wether it be burst or sustained fire.

That, and reaper doesn't suffer self sustained splash damage from explosives, which makes it another decent choice for cqc, provided the pilot has the 'skills' to be consistent with hitscan weapons.


I feel like one of the problems that Hawken may face is that trying to maintain balance by enforcing specific roles can become ambiguious when certain weapons(mainly hitscan like slug and ke-sabot)already innately have more versatility than other weapons.

I honestly don't know enough about how to balance game mechanics in a game like this, so we'll just have to wait and see what happens.

off topic....

Am-sar on the reaper is sooo overlooked, even in cqc. You just have to hit the target. It's advantage over the slug is you can miss. The am-sar on the ss though is lackluster, would not use.

[mikeymop]

I'm so happy to hear tuning points are gone. It made the higher level mechs feel superhuman and lower level mechs feel line tin cans. It also leans towards my desire of a TDM Pro, or DM pro, etc.

[Dreavus]

Any word on what's going to happen to any mech ranks we had in progress_ I'm going to guess that we won't obtain any credits we already threw into them.

I'm fairly new to the game (signed up ages ago, just got into it recently), and I've been playing the Berserker almost exclusivly in hopes of eventually unlocking the Infiltrator. I sqandered most of my starting credits testing out items, and the rest went into rank unlocks. I just hit the 2nd last rank and was getting pretty close to maximum, and then I read about these changes that are coming! I would hate to begin at essentially zero credits again on my way to affording Infiltrator when I've put so much into ranks and abilities with the express purpose of unlocking it later!

Of course, I realize this is still beta and things are bound to change (I actually like the changes overall based on my limited experience with the game), but I am hoping for a bit of a jump start towards the mech I've been looking forward to testing out.

[Olethros]

I know this has been said already but I just wanted to add my voice to the others (how would you otherwise know how many think the same). I really liked tuning and I think It's a shame that it's going to be removed (lvl 7 so it's not cause I'm lvl 30 and owning lowbies). It really added flavour to "your" mech and your own playstyle. I realize you can still fidle around with items and internals but tuning was... so much more imo. I've seen people complain about the high rankers being godlike but this is really a flaw in the matchmaking rather than anything else. To go out on a limb here... you should really implement matchmaking by brackets (probably suggested somewhere). Pilot rank 1-9, 10-19, 20-29 and 30. Sure, this being beta it would cause a long queue time so I'm not for implementing it now but upon release I think it would have solved the tuning god mode of the lvl 30s against lvl 1s.  Anyway, like the game overall, keep up the good work. COD can just go bury itself compared to Hawken.

/Edit
I just want to completely retract the idea of brackets. I wasn't thinking straight obviously and had forgotten my many hours on different MMOs through the years. Brackets eventually lead to new players having to wait endlessly for a game since most of the players, after the game has been out there for a while, will be at the end bracket. Brackets=bad idea! My bad :/

Edited by Olethros, January 17 2014 - 06:07 AM.

[SoldierHobbes11]

I'm fine with these changes, except for the removal of the tuning system. While I understand all the reasoning behind it, I really don't think that's grounds for removing it alltogether.

Now I can understand why people would want it gone. The issue is balance. Some players feel that the way the tuning system currently works is completely in favor of veteran players, making older players more powerful, while the newer players have to fight with bear skins and stone knives. One solution is to give all the points from the start, so that way everyone is on an even playing field. A higher level player wouldn't have more points to buff their mechs than a new player who just picked up the game.

However, this ignores the vast amount of gamers who don't want to have to go through the trouble of a making a loadout, and preffer the game be determined by skill rather than the gear you grind for. But of course, there are those who enjoy making a loadout to fit their style of play and enjoy the customization.

I believe I know of a way to keep tuning in the game in such a way that allow people to pick up a mech and just use it as is, or to customize it to their own liking while maintaining the balance between new and veteran players.

I personally love the tuning system and enjoy the mental effort that goes into tuning my mech to opperate how I want it. I'm currently level 23, so I have a decent amount of points to work with. That being said, I do see it as an unfair advantage against newer players because the point allocation ONLY makes me stronger and unbalances power in my favor, alone.

But if instead of adding points which only makes my mech more overpowered, the tuning system was changed so that you have to move the points around from one area to another; sacrificing one stat to boost another. It would be a trade-off rater than an outright boost. Just hear me out and I'll explain it a little better. BEHOLD!!!!

So pretty much, each mech starts off at base stats determined by a the number of tuning points that is determined by the developers. However, instead of having the ability to add points to the stats of the mech and throw them out of balance, you get the option of moving points from one stat and add it to another.

For example: Rather than flat out adding a point to heatsinks, you would have to take a point away from another stat, like weapons loader, in order to add another to heatsinks. So to illustrate this:

Starting stats: > Stats After Tuning:
Weapons Loader: 12 >   Weapons Loader: 12 - (1) = 11
    v
Heatsinks: 10 >     Heat sinks: 10 + (1) = 11

In this manner, the total amount of tuning points will be EXACTLY the same for every mech of the same model. So instead of tuning being an unfair advantage, it's a trade-off; enhancing one aspect while weakening another.

It would be jsimilar to the loadout principle in Team Fortress 2, which is one of the, or dare I say THE most balanced, class-based shooters out in the video gaming world.

The stock loadout of each class (or in the case of Hawken it would be the base tuning stats) is the most balanced and effective at playing to the strengths of the class. That way, new players or players who don't want to bother with tuning won't even have to think about it, and still be effective at piloting their mech.

Meanwhile the alternative weapons (in the case of Hawken, moving the tuning stat points around) introduce certain strengths that encourage certain styles of play, but have very obvious drawbacks that the player will have to cope with. With this balance can be maintained, and players who like to customize a loadout can have their customization.

Also, for the whole "skill vs. gear" argument, it does take skill to be able to cope with the drawbacks of a loadout. If any of you fellow gamers have played Team Fortress 2 like me, you know exactly what I'm talking about.

Anywho, that's just my opinion and a rough idea on how to keep tuning in the game while keeping it balanced. Like I said, it's just a rough idea, but if you like it, let me know. More importantly, help me let the developers know so it can catch their attention and have the possibility of being in the game. And if you have questions, feel free to ask me.

Anywho, see you on the battlefield!

[Rabid_Peanut_Butter]

I'm right there with you guys.  I feel Hawken is fairly limited in customization as far as mech games go, but I was okay with it.  Loosing tuning points too just makes it all seem so generic.  I too understand the reasoning behind this, but am sad to see it go (and also support the idea of just giving people the 30 points right out of the gate).

[MrWilpon]

I've spent Meteor Points to transfer XP to many mechs. How my investment can still have value in the new system_ If it doesn't, will I get a refound_

[nokari]

MrWilpon, on January 20 2014 - 07:00 PM, said:

I've spent Meteor Points to transfer XP to many mechs. How my investment can still have value in the new system_ If it doesn't, will I get a refound_

There are no refunds, unless there was an error in the amount you were given when you paid for credits, and there are no retroactive refunds for MC already used. Once you have your MC, you have already gotten what you paid for. You are responsible for how you choose to use those credits and once they're used, you don't get them back, regardless of whether the game changes over time. It's all in the ToS.

[Turnova]

Instead of completely getting rid of tuning, you should be able select a primary skill for your mech like cooling/heat generation, speed/fuel. It will make it a bit more balanced but I think that altering it rather than discarding it would be better.

[DragoXXVIII]

so in short everyone has to learn there mech over  because now your stuck with a base mech you cant tune to  your own specs

Back to noob vill for everyone...(insert sarcastic yay)

[DragoXXVIII]

SoldierHobbes11, on January 16 2014 - 05:53 PM, said:

I'm fine with these changes, except for the removal of the tuning system. While I understand all the reasoning behind it, I really don't think that's grounds for removing it alltogether.

Now I can understand why people would want it gone. The issue is balance. Some players feel that the way the tuning system currently works is completely in favor of veteran players, making older players more powerful, while the newer players have to fight with bear skins and stone knives. One solution is to give all the points from the start, so that way everyone is on an even playing field. A higher level player wouldn't have more points to buff their mechs than a new player who just picked up the game.

However, this ignores the vast amount of gamers who don't want to have to go through the trouble of a making a loadout, and preffer the game be determined by skill rather than the gear you grind for. But of course, there are those who enjoy making a loadout to fit their style of play and enjoy the customization.

I believe I know of a way to keep tuning in the game in such a way that allow people to pick up a mech and just use it as is, or to customize it to their own liking while maintaining the balance between new and veteran players.

I personally love the tuning system and enjoy the mental effort that goes into tuning my mech to opperate how I want it. I'm currently level 23, so I have a decent amount of points to work with. That being said, I do see it as an unfair advantage against newer players because the point allocation ONLY makes me stronger and unbalances power in my favor, alone.

But if instead of adding points which only makes my mech more overpowered, the tuning system was changed so that you have to move the points around from one area to another; sacrificing one stat to boost another. It would be a trade-off rater than an outright boost. Just hear me out and I'll explain it a little better. BEHOLD!!!!

So pretty much, each mech starts off at base stats determined by a the number of tuning points that is determined by the developers. However, instead of having the ability to add points to the stats of the mech and throw them out of balance, you get the option of moving points from one stat and add it to another.

For example: Rather than flat out adding a point to heatsinks, you would have to take a point away from another stat, like weapons loader, in order to add another to heatsinks. So to illustrate this:

Starting stats: > Stats After Tuning:
Weapons Loader: 12 >   Weapons Loader: 12 - (1) = 11
v
Heatsinks: 10 > Heat sinks: 10 + (1) = 11

In this manner, the total amount of tuning points will be EXACTLY the same for every mech of the same model. So instead of tuning being an unfair advantage, it's a trade-off; enhancing one aspect while weakening another.

It would be jsimilar to the loadout principle in Team Fortress 2, which is one of the, or dare I say THE most balanced, class-based shooters out in the video gaming world.

The stock loadout of each class (or in the case of Hawken it would be the base tuning stats) is the most balanced and effective at playing to the strengths of the class. That way, new players or players who don't want to bother with tuning won't even have to think about it, and still be effective at piloting their mech.

Meanwhile the alternative weapons (in the case of Hawken, moving the tuning stat points around) introduce certain strengths that encourage certain styles of play, but have very obvious drawbacks that the player will have to cope with. With this balance can be maintained, and players who like to customize a loadout can have their customization.

Also, for the whole "skill vs. gear" argument, it does take skill to be able to cope with the drawbacks of a loadout. If any of you fellow gamers have played Team Fortress 2 like me, you know exactly what I'm talking about.

Anywho, that's just my opinion and a rough idea on how to keep tuning in the game while keeping it balanced. Like I said, it's just a rough idea, but if you like it, let me know. More importantly, help me let the developers know so it can catch their attention and have the possibility of being in the game. And if you have questions, feel free to ask me.

Anywho, see you on the battlefield!

so basicaly what your saying is  those who put the time and effort in shouldn't be rewarded and everyone should just satrt with  max everything  .

don't know if you are aware but  haveing everything frome the start kills the enjoyment of playing the game .what makes a pvp game fun is putting in the time and effort to earn all those  little advantages over other players . and 90% of the fun in mech games is makeing your mech uniqe

you play a game to progress and get new things or make older things better through upgrades not just be handed the best stuff to go be god now

in no way should any game  reward lazy players  ...i started only a few days ago and yes ive face a plethora of rank 30 piolets that tend to stomp me into the dirt, but that is because they put in the time to have that advantage and to penilize them  for the sake of lazy new players is total bs

[Teljaxx]

DragoXXVIII, on January 23 2014 - 05:54 PM, said:

so basicaly what your saying is  those who put the time and effort in shouldn't be rewarded and everyone should just satrt with  max everything  .

don't know if you are aware but  haveing everything frome the start kills the enjoyment of playing the game .what makes a pvp game fun is putting in the time and effort to earn all those  little advantages over other players . and 90% of the fun in mech games is makeing your mech uniqe

you play a game to progress and get new things or make older things better through upgrades not just be handed the best stuff to go be god now

in no way should any game  reward lazy players  ...i started only a few days ago and yes ive face a plethora of rank 30 piolets that tend to stomp me into the dirt, but that is because they put in the time to have that advantage and to penilize them  for the sake of lazy new players is total bs

In your opinion having players earn upgrades is better. In my opinion, having everyone start out at an even power level is better.

Did you ever play Unreal Tournament or Quake_ They had absolutely zero player progression, and yet they were still immensely fun. So why is that, if progression is all that makes a PvP game fun_

I would much rather be able to start the game, and be able to hold my own against a veteran player if I happen to be skilled enough to do so. I do not like that they have a built in power advantage that artificially widens the gap between them and new players. Because it is unfair that a new player still has a disadvantage against a long time player, even if their skill levels are relatively even.

[LoC_TR]

Teljaxx, on January 23 2014 - 09:07 PM, said:

I do not like that they have a built in power advantage that artificially widens the gap between them and new players.

[DragoXXVIII]

Teljaxx, on January 23 2014 - 09:07 PM, said:

DragoXXVIII, on January 23 2014 - 05:54 PM, said:

so basicaly what your saying is  those who put the time and effort in shouldn't be rewarded and everyone should just satrt with  max everything  .

don't know if you are aware but  haveing everything frome the start kills the enjoyment of playing the game .what makes a pvp game fun is putting in the time and effort to earn all those  little advantages over other players . and 90% of the fun in mech games is makeing your mech uniqe

you play a game to progress and get new things or make older things better through upgrades not just be handed the best stuff to go be god now

in no way should any game  reward lazy players  ...i started only a few days ago and yes ive face a plethora of rank 30 piolets that tend to stomp me into the dirt, but that is because they put in the time to have that advantage and to penilize them  for the sake of lazy new players is total bs

In your opinion having players earn upgrades is better. In my opinion, having everyone start out at an even power level is better.

Did you ever play Unreal Tournament or Quake_ They had absolutely zero player progression, and yet they were still immensely fun. So why is that, if progression is all that makes a PvP game fun_

I would much rather be able to start the game, and be able to hold my own against a veteran player if I happen to be skilled enough to do so. I do not like that they have a built in power advantage that artificially widens the gap between them and new players. Because it is unfair that a new player still has a disadvantage against a long time player, even if their skill levels are relatively even.

so let me ask this are you a new player or are you a "veteran" player_

because as a new player i  have on several occasions taken out  rank 30 players on my own with a stock beserker /rocketeer and ill tell you  it actually feels pretty damn good dropping a player with all those perks you are whineing about

Progression gives you something to work twords some sence of purpose not just mindless heres some really big guns on a big robot go have fun blowing stuff up with absolutely no purpose....

while your at it  lets make hawken pay to win too because in the end those same vet players already have everything unlocked and bought to rub almoast everyone into the dirt so we just need to buy everything to keep up because "WE" are just too lazy to put in any sort of effort and want everything just handed to us...(that last bit is sarcasim if you can't tell)

[ReEvolve]

DragoXXVIII, on January 23 2014 - 11:47 PM, said:

<snip>

so let me ask this are you a new player or are you a "veteran" player_

because as a new player i  have on several occasions taken out  rank 30 players on my own with a stock beserker /rocketeer and ill tell you  it actually feels pretty damn good dropping a player with all those perks you are whineing about

First and foremost: calm down. Nobody is whining, people are just voicing their opinions. That's what this thread was made for. I'm also sad that they removed the tuning system.

DragoXXVIII, on January 23 2014 - 11:47 PM, said:

Progression gives you something to work twords some sence of purpose not just mindless heres some really big guns on a big robot go have fun blowing stuff up with absolutely no purpose....

Tuning points and rank related ability upgrades will be removed but that doesn't mean that there will be no progression system at all. Correct if I'm wrong but weapons, items and internals are still unlocked by leveling up. Getting enough HC to buy the mechs may also count as progression (permanent unlock).

DragoXXVIII, on January 23 2014 - 11:47 PM, said:

while your at it  lets make hawken pay to win too because in the end those same vet players already have everything unlocked and bought to rub almoast everyone into the dirt so we just need to buy everything to keep up because "WE" are just too lazy to put in any sort of effort and want everything just handed to us...(that last bit is sarcasim if you can't tell)

So you don't want Hawken to be a "pay2win" game. If that's true then you should rejoice since they decreased the gap between new players and players who bought all their stuff already (wether with HC or MC). I struggle to understand why you're so upset. Anyway I like the idea of everyone having 30 tuning points instead of no tuning system at all.

The next patch will bring many changes in different areas so I'm pretty excited to so how the game as a whole will be affected.

[Teljaxx]

DragoXXVIII, on January 23 2014 - 11:47 PM, said:

so let me ask this are you a new player or are you a "veteran" player_

I have been playing since CB3, when there was no pilot progression, and very little difference between a level one and level 25 fully optimized mech. And I play Hawken for the fun of fighting other players, not for the "joy" of leveling up.

DragoXXVIII, on January 23 2014 - 11:47 PM, said:

because as a new player i  have on several occasions taken out  rank 30 players on my own with a stock beserker /rocketeer and ill tell you  it actually feels pretty damn good dropping a player with all those perks you are whineing about

Progression gives you something to work twords some sence of purpose not just mindless heres some really big guns on a big robot go have fun blowing stuff up with absolutely no purpose....

while your at it  lets make hawken pay to win too because in the end those same vet players already have everything unlocked and bought to rub almoast everyone into the dirt so we just need to buy everything to keep up because "WE" are just too lazy to put in any sort of effort and want everything just handed to us...(that last bit is sarcasim if you can't tell)

Yeah, it can be fun to defeat someone that has an advantage over you like that. But how many times have other players been beaten primarily because their opponent had a better mech, and not simply because they were more skilled_ And what happens when you become the highly skilled player with all the upgrades, and you are facing off against a new player_

With the removal of player tuning, the gap between new and veteran players will be much smaller, and the individual classes will be much easier to balance properly. This is a good thing for the game. Having more vertical progression may be good for bringing in players like yourself, that like the feeling of achievement that it gives you. But it also hurts the gameplay, and especially any hope of it ever becoming a serious competitive game.

For anyone that plays this game more for the progression than for the gameplay, you really should go find a different game. There are plenty of other games with much bigger ladders to climb than Hawken. Go try Warframe, you will be farming resources and leveling things up for years there.

[Superkamikazee]

Seeing as I'm a fairly low skilled player I don't care what needs to be done as long as the game becomes more balanced. I simply want more people to play this game so I can be matched with players in my skill bracket. I'm sick of 40-15 matches in tdm, I like the close battles whether I win or lose.

[DragoXXVIII]

Teljaxx, on January 24 2014 - 04:53 AM, said:

DragoXXVIII, on January 23 2014 - 11:47 PM, said:

so let me ask this are you a new player or are you a "veteran" player_

I have been playing since CB3, when there was no pilot progression, and very little difference between a level one and level 25 fully optimized mech. And I play Hawken for the fun of fighting other players, not for the "joy" of leveling up.

DragoXXVIII, on January 23 2014 - 11:47 PM, said:

because as a new player i  have on several occasions taken out  rank 30 players on my own with a stock beserker /rocketeer and ill tell you  it actually feels pretty damn good dropping a player with all those perks you are whineing about

Progression gives you something to work twords some sence of purpose not just mindless heres some really big guns on a big robot go have fun blowing stuff up with absolutely no purpose....

while your at it  lets make hawken pay to win too because in the end those same vet players already have everything unlocked and bought to rub almoast everyone into the dirt so we just need to buy everything to keep up because "WE" are just too lazy to put in any sort of effort and want everything just handed to us...(that last bit is sarcasim if you can't tell)

Yeah, it can be fun to defeat someone that has an advantage over you like that. But how many times have other players been beaten primarily because their opponent had a better mech, and not simply because they were more skilled_ And what happens when you become the highly skilled player with all the upgrades, and you are facing off against a new player_

With the removal of player tuning, the gap between new and veteran players will be much smaller, and the individual classes will be much easier to balance properly. This is a good thing for the game. Having more vertical progression may be good for bringing in players like yourself, that like the feeling of achievement that it gives you. But it also hurts the gameplay, and especially any hope of it ever becoming a serious competitive game.

For anyone that plays this game more for the progression than for the gameplay, you really should go find a different game. There are plenty of other games with much bigger ladders to climb than Hawken. Go try Warframe, you will be farming resources and leveling things up for years there.

i play warframe too  have pretty much everything not only that im also a founder on Warframe and it dosn't take as long as you think to farm things up

i had an itch for mechs and befor you say it i have tryed mech warrior online and imo it sucks not really any progression and its all run and gun with almoast no customizeation at all imo its a shame to the franchise compared to the older MW games and its P2W as well only good thing it has goin for it are the maps are freakin gainormouse

Edited by DragoXXVIII, January 24 2014 - 02:11 PM.

[Adianoeta]

Been almost a year since I've played Hawken.  Much has changed.  MMR's gone (which I miss), Berserker's now popular (this makes me happy, since I was one of the few Berserker enthusiasts at the time) and the mech customization system has had a rework.

Here's something that doesn't seem to change:

• A skilled player with a vanilla mech can and will dominate an unskilled player with a souped-up mech

Did it with CR-T after maxing out my Cupcake.  Plain-Jane CR-T, to me, felt like an upgrade in comparison to the Cupcake, even after all the movement customizations poured into the Cupcake.  This was because CR-T was so much more nimble and agile than Cupcake, even as a brand new, upgrade-lacking mech.  A lot of players would get frustrated because a "newbie CR-T" player was running circles around their XYZ mech that they sunk all their customization points into.  Then I'd pull out the max-level Cupcake and the frustrated players would rage because I was a "newbie" using a "Pay-2-Win Mega Mech" that would "tank" several players at once (funny thing was, not a single point toward armor/health/damage reduction, all towards movement and radar).  Then I'd hop back to the vanilla CR-T to prove that there was nothing special about Cupcake and the grumpy players would then ragequit after calling me a "Pay-2-Win hacker" (quite the oxymoron).  Sure, as a Class-C, Cupcake has more health that lends itself to tanking, but CR-T didn't have that advantage and even possessed disadvantages due to the lack of  upgrades, yet despite all that, the CR-T would still best the max-level mechs.

What's really interesting about this, though, is that there's nothing special about me.  If I recall correctly, I think I sat somewhere in between the low-to-mid 2,000s when MMR was around, so I wasn't an amazing player at all.  I saw others do the same thing.  I'd see players ragequit because they had invested so much of themselves into the belief that their mech was amazing, because they presumed to know the tuning "sweet spot" and had performed well with it.  Then a former CB player, or any skilled player for that matter, would come in with a new mech they were trying out, not even playing seriously, and make the max-level mech players cry.

Point of this anecdote: Tuning Points system, even after being reworked to what we have today, is negligible and immaterial when player skill and strategy is factored in.

Personally, I'm sad to see the current iteration of Tuning go away, mostly because I like the feeling that I'm customizing something, but I also recognize that it made little to no difference in the grand scheme of things, even since CB2/CB3 (can't remember exactly when I started).

[Saturnine]

Adianoeta, on January 24 2014 - 02:00 PM, said:

What's really interesting about this, though, is that there's nothing special about me.  If I recall correctly, I think I sat somewhere in between the low-to-mid 2,000s when MMR was around, so I wasn't an amazing player at all.

Just saw this and wanted to point something out. 2000 MMR is actually not average at all - it's far above average, at the very very least you'd be in the top 5% of players, if that was in fact your mmr. You can actually still check what it is, though, if you friend a player named scrimbot , and send them a message saying "!mmr", it'll tell you what your current MMR is.

Edited by Saturnine, January 24 2014 - 02:57 PM.