116 replies to this topic

[LordofNosgoth]

Nept, on February 08 2014 - 09:08 PM, said:

I try to avoid ego wars.  Let's assume, then, that you are the better WfC player.

Okay, sounds reasonable. Not that it matters. The game is deader than a door nail and you were gone by the time I joined and was trouncing the people that used to trounce you. So it's kind a moot point anyway.

Nept, on February 08 2014 - 09:08 PM, said:

Surely you'll also be the better Hawken player, then_  Especially now since Hawken's basically the same "generic" thing as Transformers_

Didn't you just say something about avoiding ego wars_ I could've sworn you did.

Nept, on February 08 2014 - 09:08 PM, said:

Shall we put that to the test_

Oh. Okay. So you're a lying trolling sack. Got it. Let me know how that works out for you.

Bazookagofer, on February 08 2014 - 10:39 PM, said:

Oh great ... EGO wars... that will get us nowhere.

LordofNosgoth, on February 08 2014 - 08:43 PM, said:

Therefore, we can assume that the only viable reasons for having a 'mech' for combat is that it can move faster, consume fewer resources and - this part is my favorite, wait for it - take more punishment than our current combat vehicles.

Oh yea, mechs made out of scrap and junk and whatever they can find and running on rat feces is going to be so DURABLE. Also you don't even know what these mechs are made from exactly. Your argument about these mechs lasting long are based on your "guess" that the people are using Top Grade material which I am pretty sure they are not. There pretty much living in a MAD MAX world.

Okay. Let's examine your assumption.

1. The only way our current tech could get a mech to stand, much less walk is if we made it of the most primo materials. It's the only way our current top tanks stay together.

2. Let's assume that the mechs in Hawken are, indeed, made of junk and scrap parts.  For your realism argument to hold water, this would mean that the 'junk' or 'scrap' used would need to be made of sturdier materials than what we currently possess. Perhaps excessively heavy, non-radioactive elements never before discovered. This, of course, means that the materials could still handle far more punishment than our current tech.

3. Assuming point #'s 1 & 2 to be true, one could argue that the bullets would be made of the same materials... except wait, that won't work; for that to happen, the bullets would need to be accelerated to speeds more comparable to light than to sound. Except, wait, if that happened, then all bullets in the game would have ridiculous range, incredible accuracy and would be pretty much hit-scan.

In just 3 easy points I blew your realism arguments out of the water. Now that we've covered that, let's go back to: They're mechs, they shouldn't die because a mouse farted in their general direction. Clearly you disagree. So we'll leave it at that.

[PhysicsCrime]

Bazookagofer, on February 08 2014 - 10:39 PM, said:

Oh yea, mechs made out of scrap and junk and whatever they can find and running on rat feces is going to be so DURABLE. Also you don't even know what these mechs are made from exactly. Your argument about these mechs lasting long are based on your "guess" that the people are using Top Grade material which I am pretty sure they are not. There pretty much living in a MAD MAX world.

Realism ∞< Gameplay, especially in a supposedly competitive game.

Nept, on February 08 2014 - 09:08 PM, said:

As someone who was a much better WfC player...

Nept, on February 08 2014 - 05:40 PM, said:

I try to avoid ego wars.

Quite a contradiction there.

[Nept]

PhysicsCrime, on February 08 2014 - 11:57 PM, said:

Bazookagofer, on February 08 2014 - 10:39 PM, said:

Oh yea, mechs made out of scrap and junk and whatever they can find and running on rat feces is going to be so DURABLE. Also you don't even know what these mechs are made from exactly. Your argument about these mechs lasting long are based on your "guess" that the people are using Top Grade material which I am pretty sure they are not. There pretty much living in a MAD MAX world.

Realism ∞< Gameplay, especially in a supposedly competitive game.

Nept, on February 08 2014 - 09:08 PM, said:

As someone who was a much better WfC player...

Nept, on February 08 2014 - 05:40 PM, said:

I try to avoid ego wars.

Quite a contradiction there.

Don't mistake a statement for an ego war.

The fact is that if Nosgoth actually were a better WfC player, and if Hawken were actually a generic WfC clone, his supposedly superior skills would shine through here as well.  Think it bears mentioning that Omni won all of their WfC scrims rather convincingly.  We never came near so much as a tie, and there was no "trouncing" of our members.  Again, statement of fact.

Of course, he'll never accept the challenge.  It is extremely likely that he will lose, which means either a) he was never a better WfC player (goes against his statement); b ) Hawken is not a generic WfC clone (goes against his statement); or c) options a and b are both true (my assessment).

Edited by Nept, February 09 2014 - 01:23 AM.

[bacon_avenger]

LordofNosgoth, on February 08 2014 - 11:47 PM, said:

Bazookagofer, on February 08 2014 - 10:39 PM, said:

Oh yea, mechs made out of scrap and junk and whatever they can find and running on rat feces is going to be so DURABLE. Also you don't even know what these mechs are made from exactly. Your argument about these mechs lasting long are based on your "guess" that the people are using Top Grade material which I am pretty sure they are not. There pretty much living in a MAD MAX world.

Okay. Let's examine your assumption.

1. The only way our current tech could get a mech to stand, much less walk is if we made it of the most primo materials. It's the only way our current top tanks stay together.

2. Let's assume that the mechs in Hawken are, indeed, made of junk and scrap parts.  For your realism argument to hold water, this would mean that the 'junk' or 'scrap' used would need to be made of sturdier materials than what we currently possess. Perhaps excessively heavy, non-radioactive elements never before discovered. This, of course, means that the materials could still handle far more punishment than our current tech.

3. Assuming point #'s 1 & 2 to be true, one could argue that the bullets would be made of the same materials... except wait, that won't work; for that to happen, the bullets would need to be accelerated to speeds more comparable to light than to sound. Except, wait, if that happened, then all bullets in the game would have ridiculous range, incredible accuracy and would be pretty much hit-scan.

In just 3 easy points I blew your realism arguments out of the water. Now that we've covered that, let's go back to: They're mechs, they shouldn't die because a mouse farted in their general direction. Clearly you disagree. So we'll leave it at that.

I don't claim Hawken mechs are 'realistic' in the sense of Real World realistic, but they are just that in the Hawken world.  As your arguments indicate that you may have forgotten the backstory behind Hawken, allow me to go over it a bit...

• There are no assumptions in the post from gofer, the mechs are repurposed work frames, along with frames assembled from junk and spare parts.  The scout:

"The L2 Moke was first produced to help offset the heavy cost of war. Knowing that Scouts rarely returned from reconnaissance missions, the design recycled parts from salvaged shuttle wreckage scavenged from the dead zone. This model was eventually updated to a more streamlined version, but the iconic cylindrical fuel canister style cockpit was preserved and is often outfitted as tribute to the brave Scouts who gave their lives during the course of battle."

The assault:
"The M4 Brommens, now found on Assault mechs, was originally created to excavate Illal's hazardous mines. After the cost of tunnel collapses began to rise the corporations found they could frequently save their equipment (and the pilot) if they outfitted them in a walker. The Brommens offered both physical protection and a way to dig the pilot out, although the psychological ramifications of being buried alive often lingered with the pilots long after. Even after it was pressed into combat service much of the design of this mech remained the same; you can still notice semi-obsolete features throughout the mech, such as the flood lamps located just to the left of the cockpit."

And the raider:
"Once known as "Armed Merchantmen", Raiders were originally used by freelance pilots as escorts for energy corporation shipments. Though they functioned primarily to load and unload cargo, their utilities were also applied offensively against the occasional, petty thief en route..."

• They are able to stand and boost around due to a material found on the planet that is lighter than air.

• Per the graphic novel, they are indeed powered by waste material from rats that have eaten the gigastructure.

Now as for the claims it's a generic shooter, what was it before_

• Vertical progression and better capabilities as one gains 'levels':  CoD, BF, and virtually any 'modern' FPS out there.  This also is massively unfair to new players who get put into a match with vets of the game, where by the very nature of the vertical progression, they are at a massive disadvantage.

• Class based choices for player characters: Again, CoD, BF, and virtually any 'modern' FPS out there.

• After the ascension patch, addons (AKA internals) that give boosts for making kills and regenerating 'health' when one is not in combat for a set amount of time (recall that these did not exist before ascension):  Yep, CoD, BF, and many 'modern' shooters.

I would argue that now with much of the vertical progression removed, Hawken eschews many of the gimmicks that other FPS games use, taking a more 'pure FPS' path, which itself is a rather unique approach by not copying and using the so-called 'must have features' of current FPS games.

gad333mlgpro, on February 07 2014 - 09:34 PM, said:

I seriously loved Hawken before the patch but the armor "balances" are just fuzzy bunny that make the game less fun. I liked Hawken because it was UNIQUE AND NOT A GENERIC FPS. Now it seems that the game is trying to imitate those generic shooters that I can't stand. Please listen to us and change the game back to the amazing (meaning unique and not generic) shooter that I loved.

ADH did listen, and what we got was ascension, which saw...

• A good amount of the long term players (those who had been playing from alpha and the closed betas) quit playing

• A population that was dwindling from it's pre-ascension counts (my own theory from what I saw in the browser as I don't have population stats, only MTR/ADH has those.  But I'd love to see the hard numbers on it, if nothing else to see if I'm correct or not)

• Multiple clans that had been formed in the early days of Hawken disbanding.

• Additions that I have listed up above that are very much parts of virtually every other FPS out there today.

I've been here since the alpha 2 days.  I used to play virtually every night for at least an hour.  When the vanguard initiative was announced, I couldn't wait to put down my money and buy into it because I loved and believed what Hawken was at that time.  Take a look at the credits sometime and scroll down.  There is a section for the people who bought into the top-tier of the Vanguard because of that love and belief (you will find my name in there as well).

Then ascension was rolled out.  I tried to like it.  I tried to have fun with it.  But I couldn't, and I didn't.  I stopped playing primarily due to a lack of interest and a secondary reason of lack of time.

After ascension was released, there were people on that list requesting that their names be removed from it as they didn't want to be associated with it.  Nothing has ever split the community as much as that patch did, not even this one which has Hawken going back toward what it used to be.  I've not been able to log a lot of time in it yet, but I already am finding my interest being renewed (but dang I'm out of practice).

And before anyone says I'm being an 'elitist  top tier player', I can say that I am far from that.  I was OK at the game with a pre-assension MMR around 1800 to 2100ish, depending on if I had a bad run or not.  Hardly a 'top tier' player.

I'm sorry that you don't like the changes, but your claims of it becoming generic are misplaced, at least from my perspective, nor is the game unplayable as the OP claims.

[comic_sans]

Everything by LordofNosgoth said:

Spoiler

On a side note, Craftydus, I need your help finding an image of judges laughing at an orator or something, can you do this for me_

[Bazookagofer]

LordofNosgoth, on February 08 2014 - 11:47 PM, said:

Nept, on February 08 2014 - 09:08 PM, said:

I try to avoid ego wars.  Let's assume, then, that you are the better WfC player.

Okay, sounds reasonable. Not that it matters. The game is deader than a door nail and you were gone by the time I joined and was trouncing the people that used to trounce you. So it's kind a moot point anyway.

Nept, on February 08 2014 - 09:08 PM, said:

Surely you'll also be the better Hawken player, then_  Especially now since Hawken's basically the same "generic" thing as Transformers_

Didn't you just say something about avoiding ego wars_ I could've sworn you did.

Nept, on February 08 2014 - 09:08 PM, said:

Shall we put that to the test_

Oh. Okay. So you're a lying trolling sack. Got it. Let me know how that works out for you.

Bazookagofer, on February 08 2014 - 10:39 PM, said:

Oh great ... EGO wars... that will get us nowhere.

LordofNosgoth, on February 08 2014 - 08:43 PM, said:

Therefore, we can assume that the only viable reasons for having a 'mech' for combat is that it can move faster, consume fewer resources and - this part is my favorite, wait for it - take more punishment than our current combat vehicles.

Oh yea, mechs made out of scrap and junk and whatever they can find and running on rat feces is going to be so DURABLE. Also you don't even know what these mechs are made from exactly. Your argument about these mechs lasting long are based on your "guess" that the people are using Top Grade material which I am pretty sure they are not. There pretty much living in a MAD MAX world.

Okay. Let's examine your assumption.

1. The only way our current tech could get a mech to stand, much less walk is if we made it of the most primo materials. It's the only way our current top tanks stay together.'t Lol dude you dont need super heavy stuff to make tanks. They are made mainly of that stuff because it is more durable than previous materials used. Which means they can be using the material from ww1 or ww2.

2. Let's assume that the mechs in Hawken are, indeed, made of junk and scrap parts.  For your realism argument to hold water, this would mean that the 'junk' or 'scrap' used would need to be made of sturdier materials than what we currently possess. Perhaps excessively heavy, non-radioactive elements never before discovered.Just because something is heavy doesn't make it durable ex. gold . And you are assuming again that they are using top grade material

This, of course, means that the materials could still handle far more punishment than our current tech. Durability also depends on the shape the armor is crafted into. Spherical shaps are generally more durable then squares. Look at medieval helmets. Those typical can helmets were way worse then ones that had curved shapes. And here again you are assuming and guessing.

3. Assuming point #'s 1 & 2 to be true, one could argue that the bullets would be made of the same materials... except wait, that won't work; for that to happen, the bullets would need to be accelerated to speeds more comparable to light than to sound. Except, wait, if that happened, then all bullets in the game would have ridiculous range, incredible accuracy and would be pretty much hit-scan.

In just 3 easy points I blew your realism arguments out of the water. Now that we've covered that, let's go back to: They're mechs, they shouldn't die because a mouse farted in their general direction. Clearly you disagree. So we'll leave it at that.

So in short words as I have stated before you have no idea what these mechs are clearly made out of. You don't know the metals they are using whatsoever. Which means that "logically"( which is a word you love using ) you have no idea what the properties of the metals are therefore your claims that mechs should be durable are invalid because you have no idea what their made of. They can be made out of the weakest metal out their but then again it can be made out of the strongest one. YOU DONT KNOW. My previous post is just saying that your post about mechs being super durable is "speculation" and "guesses" with no solid evidence behind them. YOUR ARGUMENT ABOUT MECHS BEING STRONG IS AN OPINION BECAUSE YOU HAVE NO VALID INFO ABOUT WHAT THE MECHS ARE MADE OUT OF!

PS I really don't care if TTK is higher or lower I will still play the game because it awesome and I also don't really care about realism because we have mechs running on rat feces. Just repeat that sentence.

PSS. I dont think you got the fact that I was trying to be sarcastic about people arguing whether mechs should be dying fast or not. Both sides are using speculations and no valid evidence of what the stuff is made out of so no way to know how long it can survive. So you can't "blow something out of the water" as you put it if you have no solid evidence behind your claims. Your arguments are as illogical as the people saying that the mechs should die fast.

Edited by Bazookagofer, February 09 2014 - 04:20 PM.

[ropefish]

everytime i read one of these threads im like:

[Gulfen]

Haven't played since 2012, and I came back this patch.  I think it's more fun than it ever was.  I don't mind dying as fast because battles used to just be whoever could find a good repair hiding spot faster.  The combat feels much more fluid and it feels very nice to dodge around some clueless enemy as I rip into him with submachine gun.

[LordofNosgoth]

Nept, on February 09 2014 - 01:12 AM, said:

Don't mistake a statement for an ego war.

The fact is that if Nosgoth actually were a better WfC player, and if Hawken were actually a generic WfC clone, his supposedly superior skills would shine through here as well.  Think it bears mentioning that Omni won all of their WfC scrims rather convincingly.  We never came near so much as a tie, and there was no "trouncing" of our members.  Again, statement of fact.

Of course, he'll never accept the challenge.  It is extremely likely that he will lose, which means either a) he was never a better WfC player (goes against his statement); b ) Hawken is not a generic WfC clone (goes against his statement); or c) options a and b are both true (my assessment).

I didn't make any mistakes. Your massively over-inflated ego just took charge and ran away with you. Normally, if someone were to issue a challenge to me and I had even a smidge of respect for them, I'd accept even if I knew I'd lose.

But I hate you. As in: I despise you. I abhor your presence in a game as a general rule. Seeing you in any game is a sure-fire sign the game I'm in has gone to sh*t and isn't coming back.

So whether or not you will/won't win doesn't matter. I wouldn't humor a request from you even if it meant I'd instantly die and my soul suffer eternal damnation.

You can thank your ego for that one, champ.

[Beefsweat]

jesus christ can someone please lock this thread

[ReEvolve]

Beefsweat, on February 09 2014 - 11:23 AM, said:

jesus christ can someone please lock this thread

Yeah, since it's next to impossible to have a normal conversation in here...

[LordBraxton]

Mechs made for industrial labor powered by radioactive rat feces flying around shooting unlimited ammo!

Lets argue realism!


I think my bruiser reloads his hellfires by asking rats to run missiles up his legs and into the two missiles that become like 8 missiles when they fire

are they micro missiles_ are those missile things cluster warheads_ are those not even missiles, but conical pods with ports around the edges for firing micro-munitions_ do the missiles explode on launch to release the submunitions_

how does a tow reload_ it looks like a fire a forget weapon system by all accounts

flak cannons look like they hold about 12 rounds MAX

even if these mechs had fancy reloading systems built into their limbs you'd only have a few reloads

if we have the capability to spawn bubble shields out of orbs we launch from nowehere with seemingly NO SOURCE of energy generation, why don't all our mechs have energy shields built into their armor_

where do the dronesturrets stay before they are deployed_

If we have cloaking technology why isn't it on every mech_ (prices don't seem different)

If we are fighting cloaked mechs WHY DON'T WE USE HEAT VISION_

Edited by LordBraxton, February 09 2014 - 12:27 PM.

[Nept]

LordofNosgoth, on February 09 2014 - 11:18 AM, said:

Nept, on February 09 2014 - 01:12 AM, said:

Don't mistake a statement for an ego war.

The fact is that if Nosgoth actually were a better WfC player, and if Hawken were actually a generic WfC clone, his supposedly superior skills would shine through here as well.  Think it bears mentioning that Omni won all of their WfC scrims rather convincingly.  We never came near so much as a tie, and there was no "trouncing" of our members.  Again, statement of fact.

Of course, he'll never accept the challenge.  It is extremely likely that he will lose, which means either a) he was never a better WfC player (goes against his statement); b ) Hawken is not a generic WfC clone (goes against his statement); or c) options a and b are both true (my assessment).

I didn't make any mistakes. Your massively over-inflated ego just took charge and ran away with you. Normally, if someone were to issue a challenge to me and I had even a smidge of respect for them, I'd accept even if I knew I'd lose.

But I hate you. As in: I despise you. I abhor your presence in a game as a general rule. Seeing you in any game is a sure-fire sign the game I'm in has gone to sh*t and isn't coming back.

So whether or not you will/won't win doesn't matter. I wouldn't humor a request from you even if it meant I'd instantly die and my soul suffer eternal damnation.

You can thank your ego for that one, champ.

(Ironically, you immediately made a mistake by assuming that the quoted post was directed at you. Was a response to Physicscrime.)

Anyway, pretty simple stuff.  If you're as amazing in WfC as you assume you are, and if Hawken's simply a mirror copy of WfC and other "generic" games, then you'll necessarily be amazing at Hawken.

If you're worried about fighting me, then we can always look at your performance against other players.  Either way, the result is the same: Hawken's not generic, and/or you're massively overestimating your abilities.

Edited by Nept, February 09 2014 - 12:44 PM.

[Wargasim]

Loving the new patch - put it does need a few more tweaks.

I feel it rewards good game play more and drastically penalizes mistakes.

[Leonhardt]

LordofNosgoth, on February 09 2014 - 11:18 AM, said:

So whether or not you will/won't win doesn't matter. I wouldn't humor a request from you even if it meant I'd instantly die and my soul suffer eternal damnation.

Ouch. We all know Nepts ego is the size of California (as the Spanish saw it during the early colonization era), but this seems a bit harsh...

That aside I'd be more than happy to play against you in his place so you can demonstrate how Hawken is generic. It would most certainly break my heart to hear that you would rather suffer death than play with me.

[takashi_k]

LordofNosgoth, on February 08 2014 - 08:43 PM, said:

But nice try.

Yeah, no.   Making spurious and illogical counter-arguments that aren't even worth quoting, and then ending with "but nice try" doesn't make what you said any less nonsensical.  

Have fun patting yourself on the back.  You sure told me.

[Moderator03]

Due to the nature of this thread and how non-constructive it has become, it is now...

>>>CLOSED<<<