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IS there Strategy and Tactics any more_


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#1 aspectratio

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Posted February 13 2014 - 06:11 PM

Just can't get into the new patch...seems like all everyone is doing is blasting anything that moves....half the time I don't even know who I'm shooting at and way more than half the time I get killed by someone I don't even see...Invisibility and Sharpshooters should be Nerfed...so frustrating to get barraged on by something you don't even get a chance to fight back!  There is zero strategy left in this game now...god forbid if you are racing across the map just to meet up with your teammates (after I've been killed for the billionth time) and bump into a couple enemy players...toast in an instant!
The game is just plain Boring now...nothing to think about except holding your mouse down and hoping something will run into your crosshairs...

#2 ReEvolve

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Posted February 13 2014 - 06:48 PM

Since it's already late I won't say anything about specific strategies but I'd recommend taking a look at this thread if you have trouble adjusting to the recent changes: https://community.pl...to-the-new-ttk/

#3 LordTemujin

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Posted February 13 2014 - 06:49 PM

In addition: would be better if the in game voip was working...

Since it isn't find a teamspeak to habitate.
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#4 Viconaut

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Posted February 14 2014 - 05:02 PM

yes there is plenty of strat and tactics, and i dont seem to have those problems at all. keep practicing_ i dont really know what to add without sounding like im just trolling other than maybe trying to rethink your approach to whichever mechs you prefer/ trying new ones all together

Edited by Viconaut, February 14 2014 - 05:03 PM.


#5 HugeGuts

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Posted February 14 2014 - 05:31 PM

I'm sure there are still tactics in new Hawken. However, there are definitely less tactics than before. See some of the stuff people are telling you not to do in new Hawken_ You used to be able to do that. And, excluding OP classes/items/internals, there were legit ways to counter them without needing to lower the TTK.

#6 Fairwater

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Posted February 21 2014 - 10:16 AM

View Postaspectratio, on February 13 2014 - 06:11 PM, said:

There is zero strategy left in this game now

Disagree.

Teams not spreading out like a bad case of herpes is still a key strategy. SS + Tech + 3 medium mechs and a heavy is still a winning combination. Advantages of holding high ground and focus fire from 2-3 mechs is still a winning approach. I suppose this isn't so much "tactics" or "strategy" as it is basic cohesion. And if you can't get these combinations down and apply them properly, you're set up to fail.

Furthermore, Preds and other medium/light ambush/forward mechs have tactics of their own which a lot of people aren't sticking to. Popping up and going 6v1 is gonna get you killed, so you still have to wait for them to engage the bulk of your team before giving them the run around and attacking from behind. But people aren't doing this. They're often choosing the worst possible times to engage.

LEARN NOT TO YOLO is still a tactic, or rather, a form of combat discipline. Work with your team. Remind them to stay tight. Remind them that someone needs to swap out that third SS for a tech. Remind people not to over-extend. Take charge a bit. You'll win more often.

Edited by Fairwater, February 24 2014 - 08:42 AM.


#7 Atmos_Dwagon

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Posted February 21 2014 - 10:53 AM

The only way the game could truly lack strategy/tactics, is if player decision doesn't matter.
And that can only happen in games of chance.

So, is Hawken a game of chance_ (mostly or purely)
No.

#8 XPloyt

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Posted February 25 2014 - 02:06 AM

View Postaspectratio, on February 13 2014 - 06:11 PM, said:

There is zero strategy left in this game now...god forbid if you are racing across the map just to meet up with your teammates (after I've been killed for the billionth time) and bump into a couple enemy players...toast in an instant!

It sucks. It's an unfortunate thing that happens alot. You'll find yourself getting frustrated because you want to get back into the fight like a hero to help a team mate. By the time you get there you're out of boost, and right before your team mate dies (yet again) ,  you say, "I shouldn't have come back.." because you feel like an idiot for trying to be a team player, in this regard anyways.


Here's an unsolicited tip: If and when your team falls like dominoes after spawning back in, get into defensive mode; don't worry about kills, just find your team or a team mate(with skill - whichever is greater lol) before having to possibly fend off the enemy, and at the very least, if you can survive long enough to draw your team towards the action by keeping, let's say.. three enemy players busy, you'll give your teammates the chance to get good positioning on your foes. The more enemies that are trying to get you, the bigger chance your teammates will be there to "help" you.

In other words, be an alluring distraction; give them the illusion that you're an easy target while still trying to fend them off(such as taking pot-shots at them) as you work towards getting back to your team. Gauging enemy player's skills, moderate knowledge of enemy mechs' weapons and abilities, having a good idea on enemy position are required - each varying in priority by game -  always leaving a way out, and the intuitive timing to say "enough baiting" so you don't get ambushed by an Infiltrator or Predator off radar.

If your team doesn't know how to evaluate the biggest threat to their demise, or you don't become a bigger threat to the enemy team, then you're pretty much screwed. Sorry. At this point they're always pushing because there's always more of them, which means they have more options, tactics and dynamics at their disposal, etc. Until you make them stop and reconsider their tactics, they won't lose momentum.
.
I know that's rather subjective advice, because I know that's difficult to do against a's in a b or c mech, which is why I would suggest using an a mech in that situation, where you can be much more evasive...plus you have less health, which subconsciously players tend to think are quick kills.

Edited by XPloyt, February 25 2014 - 02:12 AM.


#9 JawnPolygon

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Posted February 26 2014 - 01:28 PM

Since the TTK is sooo long the best strategy is to group together to do massive damage. this can be problematic for certain mechs like the Reaper or Sharpshooter and some that are really slow in the heavy mech classes. Either way it can be a little boring and it's hard to tell who's killing who.
A really good strategy is to find an L shaped alley where you can still escape pressure and only worry about being flanked from one side instead of all four. With this in mind, if you and a teammate are using the engineer and a heavy mech, you can do massive damage and pressure the opposing team to leave that side of the map or spread out, making them weaker.
Overall you don't want to fight on your own since the TTK is so damn large, you're lucky if you can take out one opponent without dying by his teammates. You need to depend on damage from other teammates so you can do stuff like triple kills in order to justify flanking from behind on your own.

#10 Molasses_Jack

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Posted February 26 2014 - 05:49 PM

I agree fully with the OP.  I can face the fact I'm old, slow, and a lousy player.  That's life.  But the one thing I liked loved about Hawken was even if you did suck, you had a bit of a cushion to give you a second to think your way out of a tough scrape.  No more. Get ambushed- dead.  Run into two opponents_ Dead.  I've lost count of the number of times i get an enemy down to a partial heath bar and somebody else comes along and kills me.  Get jumped by a couple 30 level players with blinged-out mechs and the ttk gets into the fraction of a second range. "Situational awareness!"  "Use strategy!"  Uh, yeah, right...    I've given the zippy new patch a try, 10 to 12 hours worth.  I just ain't diggin' it.

I get it, the spaz-tastic fast-guns hated the longer drawn-out fights. You know, the ones that might have lasted almost 5 seconds.  Those overly long, boring fights held back high scores and may have lowered k/d ratios, or whatever score number they worry about. The ones that gave marginal players a bit of a chance to win the duel.

I think I need a break, to wait a while and see how the game evolves.  Maybe once the ongoing balance and voip issues are dealt I'll start enjoying it again.
Time for a break.

#11 Krellus

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Posted February 26 2014 - 10:34 PM

to OP: i suggest 1) playing a brawler, bec in a brawler you must stay with your team, or you're dead. the brawler forces you to stick with your allies, or at least know roughly where they are (ideally nearby), then, after getting used to playing with yr team, swap to other mechs where you sometimes try for a flank, get steathy, etc. I would suggest scout, since they can escape forever and are very forgiving of poor positioning. number 2) use that "request assistance" button - it will often bring your team, or some of them, towards you, making that regrouping all the quicker. 3) use shields. the chance to duck behind instant cover right when you need it may buy you the precious seconds needed to have the cavalry arrive.... it has for me in many a game.

Edited by Krellus, February 26 2014 - 10:37 PM.


#12 Molasses_Jack

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Posted February 27 2014 - 04:39 AM

In ump-teen TDM matches the only times I've seen a team stick together was when it was the other team.  Any team I've been dumped into by the matchmaker scatters like cockroaches when the kitchen lights come on.  And none of the "Stick together lads!" advice works if you play DM.  Just shorter fights there too.

Prior to the big change a noob could join and survive OK even if they went yolo.  Now it's suicide.  The whole character of the game has changed.  While the change benefits some, it has reduced the pleasure others derived from the game.  That's just how things go.
Time for a break.

#13 Ynomeikiba

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Posted February 27 2014 - 05:18 PM

I don't really notice these as a problem.  The stalkers are bit hard to beat at times, especially when combined with support, but that is the point.  Now, I did not play before this patch, so I am used to the gameplay.  I have a Berserker and a Sharpshooter mech that are both where I want them and have found it easy to win a 1v1 fight as long as I don't miss, with both suffering either far or close quarters combat due to their weapons.

#14 Exeon

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Posted February 27 2014 - 06:53 PM

Strategy and tactics are quite important in high tier scrims, as far as random pubs I think they have just as much strategy or tactics as any other FPS in the world right now. Until we see ranked matchmaking we won't see heavy amounts of either strategy nor tactics but, I will be starting up the community hawken rumble event I used to run so keep your eyes on the general discussion forums. Be forewarned there will be a level and microphone requirement as both communication and knowledge/skill are imoprtant to making the games not only fun but challenging for all players involved.

You can go check out http://www.twitch.tv/mrxacius, http://www.twitch.tv/mexichanman, or http://www.twitch.tv/furymonster as they all have highlights of high level scrims to give you a perspective of what hawken looks like when you play as a team.

Edited by Exeon, February 27 2014 - 06:53 PM.

View PostDew, on April 04 2014 - 01:15 PM, said:

There's a difference between making the hoop 14 feet high and telling all the players that you have to wait for half a second after running before you can shoot the ball.


#15 Grandclosing

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Posted September 02 2014 - 08:27 AM

aspectratio,

It's not so much that tactics and strategies don't work anymore, it's that players aren't using them, which requires great skill and knowledge of the game.

I guarantee a player utilizing strategy in his movement, positioning, and general gameplay will end up on top over players with superior battle technique. This applies for teams as well.

I mean a team playing Siege or Missiles will get utterly destroyed by a team who knows what its doing -> When to go to AA, when to collect EU, when to harass, where to be, how to approach different situations.

It all comes with practice. First you need to get better at situational and positional awareness. Understand what's going on and figure out how to deal with the situation. Figure out what your mech's strong suits are and play with your team in the best way possible. This game gets much better when every player/team gets better, only then do the true strategic and tactical capabilities of the game shine through. As for noobs, they will tend to spray, to disregard general team objectives, and go at it alone. These players usually get utterly destroyed by enemy team combos and/or opposing individual players with more combat skill.

I tend to go around harassing these players and getting easy kills because they don't stick with their team and they jump into nasty situations unaware.

Basically all it takes is time and practice... and, well, luck. It depends on what team members you happen to draw. I've had amazing experiences, where the game went smoothly and flawlessly because each team member knew the general strategies and best practices for particular game modes and maps; I've also had absolutely terrible experiences where no one listened or cooperated, everyone tried to be the hero and basically take on the opposing side alone, etc.

Keep at it man...

- Grand

#16 Grandclosing

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Posted September 02 2014 - 08:35 AM

View PostMolasses_Jack, on February 26 2014 - 05:49 PM, said:

I agree fully with the OP.  I can face the fact I'm old, slow, and a lousy player.  That's life.  But the one thing I liked loved about Hawken was even if you did suck, you had a bit of a cushion to give you a second to think your way out of a tough scrape.  No more. Get ambushed- dead.  Run into two opponents_ Dead.  I've lost count of the number of times i get an enemy down to a partial heath bar and somebody else comes along and kills me.  Get jumped by a couple 30 level players with blinged-out mechs and the ttk gets into the fraction of a second range. "Situational awareness!"  "Use strategy!"  Uh, yeah, right... I've given the zippy new patch a try, 10 to 12 hours worth.  I just ain't diggin' it.

I get it, the spaz-tastic fast-guns hated the longer drawn-out fights. You know, the ones that might have lasted almost 5 seconds.  Those overly long, boring fights held back high scores and may have lowered k/d ratios, or whatever score number they worry about. The ones that gave marginal players a bit of a chance to win the duel.

I think I need a break, to wait a while and see how the game evolves.  Maybe once the ongoing balance and voip issues are dealt I'll start enjoying it again.

Molasses_Jack, that's the point - one mech shouldn't be able to take on two mechs and win with ease (I mean, I guess unless you're a pro or something, those guys are insane.) But generally this game relies on strategy and team-work. In the case that you run into two enemy mechs, and neither are about to die, the proper situational awareness strategy is to run Escape, meet with your team, re-cooperate, go back, harass, do whatever it takes to stay alive - intelligently. The game would be downright awful if there were mechs or techniques that a single player could utilize to take on and beat 2 or more mechs alone. What would be the point of a team then_

#17 mmm_yep

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Posted September 02 2014 - 12:23 PM

Grandclosing_ More like Grandreopening! This thread is six months (and several patches) old.

Please don't bump old threads like this. If you want to discuss a topic, just start a new thread so it's in the context of the current state of the game.

Edited by mmm_yep, September 02 2014 - 12:25 PM.


#18 BurnsHot

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Posted September 02 2014 - 04:04 PM

What would be more interesting is if the OP would come back and give us an update on his experience.

When the Health pools got changed, my game play sucked balls, but I adapted and over came.  Now, I feel like i'm back to my old self.

I miss the larger health pools too but, eh... whatcha gonna do_

Just play and get better at the game.  You did it once.  You can do it all over again.

#19 ThatDamnedBoedy

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Posted September 03 2014 - 09:45 AM

The biggest issue is people not reading the text chat or not responding over voice comms.  You can tell them to regroup only so many times before leaving the match in a fit of rage.  Also please STOP SNIPING IN SIEGE.  It doesn't work or help unless your team ALREADY controls the AA.  Other than that...more bodies on the aa is more of a help.  Stop chasing people who run away...they are useless and now you are too when you chase them.

In missile assault: - strategy - If you are outnumbered you lose almost no matter what.  If teams are even then take and hold two of the missile silos.  Have two people static always guarding each one  and two people floating between the two to help over power a typical group of 3 that will assault the position.  If the team is massing on you (6v less than 6) then you need to pick them apart and use area denial mechs like the grenadier and incinerator to break up the formation.  If they have a tech...kill the tech first.  Then they'll all fall much easier.

#20 BurnsHot

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Posted September 03 2014 - 09:48 AM

View PostThatDamnedBoedy, on September 03 2014 - 09:45 AM, said:

The biggest issue is people not reading the text chat or not responding over voice comms.  You can tell them to regroup only so many times before leaving the match in a fit of rage.  Also please STOP SNIPING IN SIEGE.  It doesn't work or help unless your team ALREADY controls the AA.  Other than that...more bodies on the aa is more of a help.  Stop chasing people who run away...they are useless and now you are too when you chase them.

In missile assault: - strategy - If you are outnumbered you lose almost no matter what.  If teams are even then take and hold two of the missile silos.  Have two people static always guarding each one  and two people floating between the two to help over power a typical group of 3 that will assault the position.  If the team is massing on you (6v less than 6) then you need to pick them apart and use area denial mechs like the grenadier and incinerator to break up the formation.  If they have a tech...kill the tech first.  Then they'll all fall much easier.

Sorry but I think you totally missed the point of the OP....




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