24 replies to this topic

[Exeon]

After getting done with about 10 or so 6v6 matches using the new squad matchmaking(TY for this btw(5v5 plz_)) I volunteered to write up the post for our conversation we had after the games. Every single one of us(15+ veteran players) agreed that there was a serious problem with how fast players were getting back to fights. Often these players who we thought we had rid the battlefield of were the ones to turn the tide of the battle most dramatically. Whether its having your tech and scout spawn with 6 players of the enemy team between themselves and their teammates with 15 seconds to go and a tied score or having a tech whom you just killed 6 seconds ago coming up from behind you to try and red beam you down unsuccessfully there were blatant issues with spawning all throughout the night.

We were not all in agreement of what the solution was but we felt that something needs to be done about how quickly dead players affect the flow of battle after death. We feel it is most definitely a problem emanating from either spawn timers or spawning logic.

What do you think of spawning logic and/or spawning timers_

[DerMax]

I don't know how the spawning works in Hawken atm, but I think increasing the timeout by 4 to 5 seconds would definitely not hurt.

[Xacius]

DerMax, on February 14 2014 - 01:44 AM, said:

I don't know how the spawning works in Hawken atm, but I think increasing the timeout by 4 to 5 seconds would definitely not hurt.

Low TTK coupled with longer respawn might make the game pace feel slower.   I propose a movement speed increase to counter that!

[ReEvolve]

I'd suggest adding checkboxes so we can also select what game mode might be affected by the spawning problem.

Back2topic: My opinion:

• The spawning in Siege is fine.
  
• The spawning time in DM is a tad too fast but the spawn locations are fine.
  
• The spawning time in TDM is also a tad too fast. Sometimes I am spawned on the other site of the map and when I try to to regroup with my teammates I get intercepted by multiple enemies (quite annoying).
  
• Haven't played much Missle Assault lately so I won't comment on that game mode.

EDIT: I'd like to see an increase for the spawning time of DM (4 seconds) and TDM (3 seconds).

Edited by ReEvolve, February 14 2014 - 02:02 AM.

[DennisKnightPC]

How about keeping spawn timing as it is but spawn players with empty fuel tanks.  Another 3-4 seconds in the lobby screen etc would feel dull. Spawning with an empty fuel tank forces the player to walk for the first few seconds, but essentially they are part of the game and can make assessments from the radar about where they should be going etc when the fuel regens.
Alternatively, increase the spawn time but show players a whole map view of what is going on and potentially where they are going to spawn to so they can make tactical decisions about what to do when they do respawn.

Edit: a more elegant solution than empty fuel tanks would be a mini (short) version of what happens at the beginning of a match currently with all the boot up screens. So when you spawn, your boost systems take a few seconds to warm up and become usable.

Edited by DennisKnightPC, February 14 2014 - 05:58 AM.

[Zaxik]

I hate the spawning logic since the first time I've played. More than 50% time I seem to spawn with whole enemy team between me and my team, basically turning my death into another free kill for enemies.

So now I play mostly Siege, no more uncontrolled spawning on really bad places.

[Greenvalv]

Exeon, on February 14 2014 - 01:36 AM, said:

What do you think of spawning logic and/or spawning timers_

I've been rooting for wave based spawn timers.  I remember Swat 4 having this and it always seemed most appropriate to me.

[Furyform]

Greenvalv, on February 14 2014 - 10:50 AM, said:

Exeon, on February 14 2014 - 01:36 AM, said:

What do you think of spawning logic and/or spawning timers_

I've been rooting for wave based spawn timers.  I remember Swat 4 having this and it always seemed most appropriate to me.

This would provide much more of a team feel while penalizing that 1 guy on your team who jumps in the deep end and can't swim. He may keep doing it, but he is more ineffective as he waits for each next wave.

[FuryMonster]

dying and spawning on the opposite side of the map by yourself and having no teammates around you  is a major problem if your trying to have a game be competitive. you have almost no chance of surviving in this situation when the other team is actually using teamwork because you're drasticly out numbered.

Those few times per game in which this happends can easily be the deciding factor between a win or a loss.

Edited by FuryMonster, February 15 2014 - 06:33 PM.

[LoC_TR]

Greenvalv, on February 14 2014 - 10:50 AM, said:

Exeon, on February 14 2014 - 01:36 AM, said:

What do you think of spawning logic and/or spawning timers_

I've been rooting for wave based spawn timers.  I remember Swat 4 having this and it always seemed most appropriate to me.

Maybe a separate game mode for wave spawning but i think it would fuzzy bunny tdm play in its current state.

[Exeon]

I would really love to hear an explanation on how spawning actually works.

[fingerknitter]

Its probably the main reason I play siege; yeah people sometimes still spawn fast enough to finish you off, but not as fast as TDM and you DEFINITELY are not at the mercy of the stupid spawning logic...

I honestly don't know the best way to go about fixing it :/

[Zaxik]

Maybe we need a base for each team in TDM as well... one team spawns on one side, the other on the other side and have fight in the middle. Much better than guy A spawns next to his team, guy B repeatedly spawns next to enemy team.

[[HWK]Hoogs]

Exeon, on February 15 2014 - 11:45 PM, said:

I would really love to hear an explanation on how spawning actually works.

And I shall provide!

Basically, enemies and teammates each exert "influence" on spawn points around the map. For example, an enemy might equal -100 influence and a teammate equals +100 influence. These influences are calculated for each spawn point when you hit the Launch button. Other factors such as line of sight, distance, etc. modify these influence values. Once all the points are totaled up, we have a rating for each spawn on the map and pick the "best" one.

FuryMonster, on February 15 2014 - 06:31 PM, said:

dying and spawning on the opposite side of the map by yourself and having no teammates around you  is a major problem if your trying to have a game be competitive. you have almost no chance of surviving in this situation when the other team is actually using teamwork because you're drasticly out numbered.

What you're seeing with the above example is intentional with the spawning system. We do not want to spawn players back into the middle of a large team fight which could degrade into lopsided death balls. My suggestion when you find yourself spawning by yourself in TDM is to hang back a bit before rushing off. Remember, *you* are exerting positive influence on the spawn points for your teammates who are about to hit the Launch button. That's my pro-tip for the day .

As some of the veteran players can tell you, this seems to have worked much better than the basically pure random spawning that Hawken used a year ago. That being said, I would LOVE to try out wave based spawning. I think it's a great system for a lot of games - I just haven't had time to prototype it since I started working on CoOp. Let me know if you have any other questions!

[Beefsweat]

[HWK]Hoogs, on February 16 2014 - 02:52 PM, said:

Exeon, on February 15 2014 - 11:45 PM, said:

I would really love to hear an explanation on how spawning actually works.

And I shall provide!

Basically, enemies and teammates each exert "influence" on spawn points around the map. For example, an enemy might equal -100 influence and a teammate equals +100 influence. These influences are calculated for each spawn point when you hit the Launch button. Other factors such as line of sight, distance, etc. modify these influence values. Once all the points are totaled up, we have a rating for each spawn on the map and pick the "best" one.

FuryMonster, on February 15 2014 - 06:31 PM, said:

dying and spawning on the opposite side of the map by yourself and having no teammates around you  is a major problem if your trying to have a game be competitive. you have almost no chance of surviving in this situation when the other team is actually using teamwork because you're drasticly out numbered.

What you're seeing with the above example is intentional with the spawning system. We do not want to spawn players back into the middle of a large team fight which could degrade into lopsided death balls. My suggestion when you find yourself spawning by yourself in TDM is to hang back a bit before rushing off. Remember, *you* are exerting positive influence on the spawn points for your teammates who are about to hit the Launch button. That's my pro-tip for the day .

As some of the veteran players can tell you, this seems to have worked much better than the basically pure random spawning that Hawken used a year ago. That being said, I would LOVE to try out wave based spawning. I think it's a great system for a lot of games - I just haven't had time to prototype it since I started working on CoOp. Let me know if you have any other questions!

Thanks for the explanation, I was always very curious as to how the spawning logic worked.

[Retorrent]

So is it just a problem with the battle front shifting to fast and we just happen to get caught in a bad spot_ Because I have had some weird random spawns. Just finish playing a few rounds and twice I was literally right behind them close enough to launch a det a their medic and take him out before the team turned around and pummeled me. Second spawn me and a member of the other team spawned right in front of each he was just on the other side of the ridge in Last Eco. Could it be lag that is causing this to happen like that_

[Muffintrumpet]

[HWK]Hoogs, on February 16 2014 - 02:52 PM, said:

Exeon, on February 15 2014 - 11:45 PM, said:

I would really love to hear an explanation on how spawning actually works.

And I shall provide!

Basically, enemies and teammates each exert "influence" on spawn points around the map. For example, an enemy might equal -100 influence and a teammate equals +100 influence. These influences are calculated for each spawn point when you hit the Launch button. Other factors such as line of sight, distance, etc. modify these influence values. Once all the points are totaled up, we have a rating for each spawn on the map and pick the "best" one.

FuryMonster, on February 15 2014 - 06:31 PM, said:

dying and spawning on the opposite side of the map by yourself and having no teammates around you  is a major problem if your trying to have a game be competitive. you have almost no chance of surviving in this situation when the other team is actually using teamwork because you're drasticly out numbered.

What you're seeing with the above example is intentional with the spawning system. We do not want to spawn players back into the middle of a large team fight which could degrade into lopsided death balls. My suggestion when you find yourself spawning by yourself in TDM is to hang back a bit before rushing off. Remember, *you* are exerting positive influence on the spawn points for your teammates who are about to hit the Launch button. That's my pro-tip for the day .

As some of the veteran players can tell you, this seems to have worked much better than the basically pure random spawning that Hawken used a year ago. That being said, I would LOVE to try out wave based spawning. I think it's a great system for a lot of games - I just haven't had time to prototype it since I started working on CoOp. Let me know if you have any other questions!

excellent explanation; many cookies for you

I've been in many games where the first party wipeout decides the final score because thereafter the deathball rolls around the map at high speed picking off all of the scattered spawnees with ease
it wouldn't make much difference by lingering at a spawn point in the hope of having a team mate or two also spawn at your location because anything less than a full team is not going to be able to halt the rolling deathball, and thus the roflstomp carousel continues

some sort of hybrid wave-base / individual spawn system might hold the answer
for example, spawning waves only occur every 10 seconds but the point chosen for that team respawn works using the same priority system that's currently in place
(better still, allow dead players to defer respawning by _one_ wave slot)

I don't know, I'm just throwing stuff at the fan and seeing where it lands, but the current system makes TDM a crapshoot in competitive terms after the first party kill and that's not desirable

Edited by Muffintrumpet, February 18 2014 - 03:20 AM.

[fez]

Cheers for the info, Hoogs.

[[HWK]Hoogs]

Retorrent, on February 18 2014 - 01:50 AM, said:

So is it just a problem with the battle front shifting to fast and we just happen to get caught in a bad spot_ Because I have had some weird random spawns.

Muffintrumpet, on February 18 2014 - 03:14 AM, said:

I've been in many games where the first party wipeout decides the final score because thereafter the deathball rolls around the map at high speed picking off all of the scattered spawnees with ease
it wouldn't make much difference by lingering at a spawn point in the hope of having a team mate or two also spawn at your location because anything less than a full team is not going to be able to halt the rolling deathball, and thus the roflstomp carousel continues

Yes, unfortunately there are so many variables in play that can alter a spawn that it's extremely hard to choose a perfect spawn location. In TDM it's still possible to spawn say, right next to an enemy if you're not in line of sight of them. Being in line of sight of an enemy generally has a large enough influence that you should never spawn there. The exception is in Deathmatch where you only have enemy(negative) influences, thereby the whole spawn system can get thrown out of whack if ALL spawns are being negatively influenced severely (a reason why we reduced the max players to 10 for DM).

For certain problem areas, a designer can alter some properties on a spawn point in the UE3 editor. This is to handle things such as low obstacles which might block line of sight to a spawn point, but would still be considered a bad spawn irregardless of line of sight. So with all this tweaking I think we're in a better state than a year ago. I think wave spawning would definitely help in pub games to encourage team work, although I think organized play has adapted to the spawn system as it stands (correct me if I'm wrong!).

[Sylhiri]

[HWK]Hoogs, on February 18 2014 - 05:13 PM, said:

...although I think organized play has adapted to the spawn system as it stands (correct me if I'm wrong!).

Eh, not so much. It's not impossible to recover from but it gives the enemy a large advantage.