201 replies to this topic

[schwanzlurch]

Beemann, on March 02 2014 - 02:37 AM, said:

schwanzlurch, on March 02 2014 - 02:33 AM, said:

hmm...i would like to generalize both ways here with two games everybody knows (  based on skill and reaction time )...quake arena: everything is on the table...grab weapon... search & destroy  - Contra: embrace the progress...start, charge, die...try again

Except in Contra you earn everything in gameplay. You don't start off a new game of Contra with whatever gun you want
You also don't play it against other people, unless you're counting speedruns in which everyone starts off on even footing

yes of course...therefore i wrote based on skill and reaction time not multiplayer or competition...but the point i am trying to make is the same..my definition of grind is more than to invest time...and contra is just one example , i thought other gamers could relate to... as i first played contra, the time spent on the progress or to step up was tremendous, but it never felt like grinding...how long do you should have to play to reach the next milestone_
...nah, maybe its just me...i played pong ( in all its black & white splendor) for enormous hours and never get tired of it ^^

[Muffintrumpet]

it took me ~70 hours to get from Level 1 to 30, no boosts, and until you reach Level 30 some stuff you need* remains inaccessible, which means you have to spend much more time in a 'lower spec' mech if you don't want to waste any HC, so the true time frame required to fully deck out one mech with 'an' optimal loadout takes longer than the above numbers suggest

some closed alpha/beta test players started to 'speed-grind' new accounts a while ago, and even given that they would have been pubstomping and earning at two or three times the rate of a new player I think most gave up on that on account of how long it takes - not to mention how soul destroying an experience it must have been for all involved

Hawken is an _incredibly_ grindy game for new players, without any shadow of doubt

I find myself only playing three games every other day or so just to pick up ther daily HC win bonus, and that play time is in rapid decline
yeah, the devs would probably read that sentence and smile, thinking that the grind has held my attention in the game for longer than it would have done without, and to some extent that's true but it doesn't change the fact that my interest level reached near-quit levels about a month ago - that's nothing to be proud of IMO

Hawken is far too shallow an experience to compensate for the levels of frustration that this game generates

* stuff that finally puts you on a level playing field with every other rich player out there

[HatesYourFace]

I've had very minimal time to put into the game lately as my computer is broken and I can only play when I can sneak a few games in on my girlfriends lap top. I have 70 some hours played since the original Steam update. In that time I have saved up enough to buy an Incinerator, and then a G2 Assault, as well as equipping the G2 with a full range of internals and items. (Didn't equip the Inc. It's cool but the G2 stole my attention from it lol) This is all on only one account too and doesn't count the hand full of hours I spent milling around on my other alts, So really it's prolly like 60 hours played in a matter of weeks.

Not to mention that a "Casual" Player shouldn't be concerned with how long it takes to max out and equip ALL the mechs. If he's planning on doing that he's not very casual. Most normal, casual players will only need to max out and equip 2 to 3 mechs at most, The ones that fit their playstyle/appeal to them. If you are branching out and buying other mechs "just to try them" or because your "bored" of your current one, Congratulations! You just graduated to being a hardcore Hawken player.

Oh and test drives come with internals now. So owning every mech and outfitting it is even less important to a Casual, since he can just take those out for a spin every now and then. I really don't understand when people complain about the grind in this game_ There was a time when I would have chalked it up to me playing non stop, constantly. But I can't anymore (no matter how bad I want to) and I still don't think the grind is anything to worry about_

Unless you have some need to unlock every mech, and all their weapon options, and rank 3 items, and the best internals for every single one_ Then yeah; You might be in for a grind, or you might be the kind of person who should buy some MC.

[AsianJoyKiller]

Honestly, the grind in Marvel Heroes, a game built upon the idea of grinding (it's a Diablo-like click and loot game), is more rewarding and tolerable than Hawken.

Or a more relatable comparison, Tribes: Ascend was less grindy for free players.

[Hijinks_The_Turtle]

Man, I really thought the grind wasn't bad... *looks at other games very grindy games*  Seeing the numbers makes me feel bad for the newbies.  I also just realized I'm a hardcore Hawken player by what HatesYourFace said.  We need to increase the amount of Creds you earn!  I don't like the fact that you have to win in every mode just to get 1000 Creds.  The fact that everything is more expensive overall makes a looming wall over new players and people who just aren't very good at the game but love it.

[HatesYourFace]

I mean I think we can all agree we'd like cheaper things lol. That's a given. But someone has to keep the lights running. The Dev's can't live on HC alone like we can. Heck, the game can't live on HC alone. Free to play games have grinds, it is the nature of the beast.

[Hijinks_The_Turtle]

HatesYourFace, on March 02 2014 - 06:04 AM, said:

I mean I think we can all agree we'd like cheaper things lol. That's a given. But someone has to keep the lights running. The Dev's can't live on HC alone like we can. Heck, the game can't live on HC alone. Free to play games have grinds, it is the nature of the beast.

True but they didn't have to make weapons 6.4k each.  The assault is cheaper than that, and it's a great mech to use!  Even the Vanguard is only 1k higher than that, and I see weapons are 6.4k each_  They gotta be gold plated to be worth more than a mech. It just doesn't make any sense.

[HatesYourFace]

Hijinks_The_Turtle, on March 02 2014 - 06:08 AM, said:

True but they didn't have to make weapons 6.4k each.  The assault is cheaper than that, and it's a great mech to use!  Even the Vanguard is only 1k higher than that, and I see weapons are 6.4k each_  They gotta be gold plated to be worth more than a mech. It just doesn't make any sense.

I get what your saying but at the same time the weapons unlock different styles of play which is almost like getting a new mech. Some examples don't hold up to that like the SMC/AR since they are so similair but like Reflak Raider vs. EOC Raider is so different it might as well be the G2 Raider with the EOC on it lol.

I think some of the weapons could come down in price, especially the ones that are redundant. Ie. SMC to AR. The ones that open up seriously different styles of play are fine being relatively expensive imo.  I mean it's the same as the G2 costing 13k...is it a lot_ Yeah. But it's also a very niche mech and if you really want one that bad it shouldn't be too hard to get it.

Most people who play Raider will never want or use the EOC because it's such a different style of play so having it cost 6k is alright. It's the T-Bolt costing that much that is the problem since it doesn't really change your play style much from using the Reflak.

[Hijinks_The_Turtle]

HatesYourFace, on March 02 2014 - 06:13 AM, said:

Hijinks_The_Turtle, on March 02 2014 - 06:08 AM, said:

True but they didn't have to make weapons 6.4k each.  The assault is cheaper than that, and it's a great mech to use!  Even the Vanguard is only 1k higher than that, and I see weapons are 6.4k each_  They gotta be gold plated to be worth more than a mech. It just doesn't make any sense.

I get what your saying but at the same time the weapons unlock different styles of play which is almost like getting a new mech. Some examples don't hold up to that like the SMC/AR since they are so similair but like Reflak Raider vs. EOC Raider is so different it might as well be the G2 Raider with the EOC on it lol.

I think some of the weapons could come down in price, especially the ones that are redundant. Ie. SMC to AR. The ones that open up seriously different styles of play are fine being relatively expensive imo.  I mean it's the same as the G2 costing 13k...is it a lot_ Yeah. But it's also a very niche mech and if you really want one that bad it shouldn't be too hard to get it.

Most people who play Raider will never want or use the EOC because it's such a different style of play so having it cost 6k is alright. It's the T-Bolt costing that much that is the problem since it doesn't really change your play style much from using the Reflak.

The fact that it dramatically changes your playstyle is why the prices have to come down.  What if some hapless player buys *insert weapon here* for this *insert mech here* and after trying it out, hated it_  The player just wasted creds on a weapon (that's worth more than some really great mechs) they'll likely never use.

Edited by Hijinks_The_Turtle, March 02 2014 - 06:17 AM.

[DennisKnightPC]

My personal anecdotal experience is that it hasn't felt too grindy for me, probably about spot on between getting shiny things regularly enough but also feeling that I've earned them/have to think about my spending choices.  However, I benefited from being in before Steam and unlocked a lot of mechs for free so imagine I'd feel differently if I had to buy everything.
However, are most people that bothered about having all the mechs + kit_ I have 3 main mechs and have always had more than enough HC  to do whatever I want with their kit options.

[hawken00]

The item cost is really high indeed, before we were able to buy them 1 time and use them on all mechs, it's a lot different now.. I'm concerned for new players

[DerMax]

HatesYourFace, on March 02 2014 - 06:04 AM, said:

Free to play games have grinds, it is the nature of the beast.

No, not necessarily. Dota 2 is an example.

But you know what_ I don't want Hawken to be F2P. I would much rather pay for it one time or monthly and play an all-round amazing game with everything in place than play a game without basic, core functionality (spectator mode, clan support, ability to organize games) and numerous design and balance flaws for free.

[HatesYourFace]

DerMax, on March 02 2014 - 06:29 AM, said:

No, not necessarily. Dota 2 is an example.

But you know what_ I don't want Hawken to be F2P. I would much rather pay for it one time or monthly and play an all-round amazing game with everything in place than play a game without basic, core functionality (spectator mode, clan support, ability to organize games) and numerous design and balance flaws for free.

You mean like http://www.strikevector.net/ _ Yeah, cause it worked so well for them, my brother bought that game and now the servers are pretty dead. He's hoping they go F2P so he will have some people to play with.

[RED_FIVE]

After playing War Thunder,
I can say that the grind for unlocks in Hawken could be much, much worse.

Sure it feels like it's taking forever to earn 12k for a new mech,
but that's how they persuade users to buy HC/MC packs.
I nearly bought an HC booster pack for the first time yesterday, so I'd say it's effective.

(That being said, of course I'd want faster unlocks. Just saying the current setup has a plan behind it)

Edited by RED_FIVE, March 02 2014 - 07:03 AM.

[DerMax]

HatesYourFace, on March 02 2014 - 06:42 AM, said:

DerMax, on March 02 2014 - 06:29 AM, said:

No, not necessarily. Dota 2 is an example.

But you know what_ I don't want Hawken to be F2P. I would much rather pay for it one time or monthly and play an all-round amazing game with everything in place than play a game without basic, core functionality (spectator mode, clan support, ability to organize games) and numerous design and balance flaws for free.

You mean like http://www.strikevector.net/ _ Yeah, cause it worked so well for them, my brother bought that game and now the servers are pretty dead. He's hoping they go F2P so he will have some people to play with.

I mean like Counter-Strike: Global Offense that you buy for ~$15 to enjoy a complete, fully tested game with state-of-the art functionality and nearly perfect balance.

[HatesYourFace]

DerMax, on March 02 2014 - 07:16 AM, said:

I mean like Counter-Strike: Global Offense that you buy for ~$15 to enjoy a complete, fully tested game with state-of-the art functionality and nearly perfect balance.

Oh, you mean a 15 year old game (With shiny new gfx!) I played so much I can't even stand the sight of it anymore_ Cool.

[AsianJoyKiller]

HatesYourFace, on March 02 2014 - 06:42 AM, said:

DerMax, on March 02 2014 - 06:29 AM, said:

No, not necessarily. Dota 2 is an example.

But you know what_ I don't want Hawken to be F2P. I would much rather pay for it one time or monthly and play an all-round amazing game with everything in place than play a game without basic, core functionality (spectator mode, clan support, ability to organize games) and numerous design and balance flaws for free.

You mean like http://www.strikevector.net/ _ Yeah, cause it worked so well for them, my brother bought that game and now the servers are pretty dead. He's hoping they go F2P so he will have some people to play with.

Strike Vector's failure is due mostly in part to really !@#$ing bad game design. It's a game about dogfighting where the mechanics actually discourage dogfighting.
Having an entry fee is just icing on the cake. Even without an entry free, as long as it features !@$# mechanics, it's not going to do well.

RED_FIVE, on March 02 2014 - 07:02 AM, said:

After playing War Thunder,
I can say that the grind for unlocks in Hawken could be much, much worse.

Sure it feels like it's taking forever to earn 12k for a new mech,
but that's how they persuade users to buy HC/MC packs.
I nearly bought an HC booster pack for the first time yesterday, so I'd say it's effective.

(That being said, of course I'd want faster unlocks. Just saying the current setup has a plan behind it)

Just because something else is worse, don't mean Hawken is okay.

The thing is, it's a bad model.
It really doesn't have to be this grindy. You can have less grind, and still make money off of boosters.

And here's the big thing, they haven't exploited their other options to get money that don't affect the grind.
For instance, weapon skins. Every single time that gets brought up, it's popular, and face virtually no opposition. Cockpit baubles have been suggested too.
Really, any type of cosmetic can be pushed and games have proven that people will just eat it up if it looks like a good deal (Currently Hawken's cosmetics aren't a good deal).

Other options include a SMITE/TA like bundle which is an optional semi-expensive 1 time payment that nets you everything right off the bat. That's proved to be very lucrative for HiRez, and the pricing of the package has allowed them to reduce the grind for other players.

Something that Marvel Hero's has done, which nets them a lot of money from the already dedicated playerbase is offering advanced packs. What they do is they offer characters to be released in the future (as far away as 2015), to be purchased in a bundle at a discount.
I imagine that it could work something like this: An advanced pack buys you 3 mechs with all their weapons unlocked as soon as they're implemented, for cheaper than it would be to purchase all of them individually. Perhaps, since cosmetics options often get released at the same time as new mechs, add in certain cosmetics to the bundle (Again, for cheaper than they would be individually. Maybe the bonus could even be unlocked the cosmetics across all classes for big savings).

Really, my point is, they have yet to exhaust money making options outside of forcing a boring grind. We are subject to an unnecessarily slow rate of gain.

Make no mistake, that slow rate is causing many people to see Hawken as Pay2Win, and in turn causing people to pass it up. Just look at the Steam forums if you think otherwise.
I know not all of you believe that a slow grind is the same as Pay2Win (let's please not start arguments about what it is and isn't. This isn't the place.), but you cannot deny the fact that there are people who do.
And please, nobody go down the path of "Well those people are stupid why would we care about them_" Because their alleged stupidity is irrelevant. In the eyes of a business, customers are customers, and the more you can grab, the better. If you can get more people to try your game, the more likely you are to get them to buy stuff once they start playing. After all, it's a little hard to get people to buy something in a game they won't even try or bother to stick with for long.

Edited by AsianJoyKiller, March 02 2014 - 08:05 AM.

[Spam_Phisher]

I don't get this argument_  so until I unlock all the things, this game isn't fun_  I'd say its the opposite. once I've reached 30 and unlocked all the stuff THEN the game is a grind.   no more rewards.   And in Hawken in particular I don't feel like i'm at a disadvantage because I don't have a fully loaded Ubermech.  my disadvantage is skill.   You can put some of these players in an empty Fred and they can kick my iron butt around the map with impunity (even if I had a fully loaded whatever).  I think you guys are looking at this the wrong way round.

[Duralumi]

DerMax, on March 02 2014 - 06:29 AM, said:

I would much rather pay for it one time or monthly

No.
No.
No.
Subscription fees for games are an outdated model and a sure-fire way to an early grave in this day and age.
You're essentially wasting money for every second you don't play the game within the time period.

Edited by Duralumi, March 02 2014 - 08:16 AM.

[teeth_03]

One of the other problems is, is the outcome of the game has little effect on your earnings.

You should get a fairly nice bonus being on the winning team. Then you should get a bonus for how you rank on your team. So even if you lose, if you rank top on your team, you should get a nice bonus as well.

I think giving better rewards for playing better and not just "being there" would help it feel less grindy.

But either way, the prices of stuff are too high, and some stuff should be universal. Like you should buy stuff and add it to an inventory that you can add to any mech you own. But if you want the same thing on a 2nd mech you have to buy a 2nd one.

EVERY item and internal should be universally equipable to any mech. We should get rid of MK2 and MK3 items, and just have multiple single slot items if you want 2 or 3 of something.

Example: You buy 6 detonators, they add to your inventory. You can put 3 on 2 mechs, 2 on 3 mechs or 1 on 6 mechs.

Weapons and cosmetic items can stay mech specific.