201 replies to this topic

[mrvile]

*double post*

Edited by mrvile, March 02 2014 - 11:52 AM.

[Beemann]

TURDxSANDWICH, on March 02 2014 - 09:59 AM, said:

I know this example isnt the best for many reasons, so don't focus too much on the actual games and tear me apart.  A game like Skyrim exists soley to level up your character.  Thats the goal of the game.  Level up your character to its max.  The "gameplay" merely exists as a vehicle to do that.  On the other hand a game like Borderlands 2 also has a leveling system, but its not front and center.  Intsead, the game is about blowing stuff up with fun weapons.  And as an aside, you get to level your character up along the way.  The focus is on the actual gameplay with the leveling system there because it can be.

Actually the point of Borderlands 2 is ALSO to level up and get better loot
Game's based on Diablo dude, it's almost entirely about the grind

TURDxSANDWICH, on March 02 2014 - 09:59 AM, said:

I've always thought of Hawken like that.  The goal of the game is to have fun on the battlefield and let everything else fall into place after that. Now, unlike BL2, there isn't even any real advantage to leveling up to the max in Hawken.  The only real purpose of leveling up everything to the max is for the completionists out there.  But you dont need to level everything up to compete.

Except there are advantages. Some weapons/items/internals/mechs are better than others, and by not having those you increase the advantage that veteran players have over you. There's also advantages like being able to swap between fully-loaded-out mechs mid-match as the situation calls for it.

TURDxSANDWICH, on March 02 2014 - 09:59 AM, said:

I guess my whole point is that the long grind is irrelevant because the goal of Hawken isnt to unlock everything nor does it give you any advantage.  The goal of Hawken is to fight with mechs.

The GOAL is to fight with mechs, and the barrier to entry is the amount it costs to get about 3 proper mechs fully loaded out if you want to be playing on a proper even playing field. Even then it's not going to be even in a lot of ways, but at least if we're talking about well informed player A buying 3 somewhat diverse optimal mechs then that's the absolute minimum. It's going to take way longer for inexperienced/non-forum-going players

TURDxSANDWICH, on March 02 2014 - 09:59 AM, said:

Now, I'm going to give the devs the benefit of the doubt because they have the numbers and say this long grind makes the game more profitable (if they even are profitable) than a shorter one.  And if the long grind makes the game earn more money, but is also mostly irrelevant to playing the game, then what's the problem with it_

The game's got like.. 3k players absolute max, and rarely pops up above 2k. It's getting stomped into the ground by DoD:S so far today, and that's pretty sad
I kinda doubt that a game like this is sustainable on that sort of population. While ADH is most likely leaning on a small portion of the playerbase, those players are only going to stay here as long as there's people to fight against and such. Hawken's numbers are dropping dangerously low right now, and I know for a fact that I, and several other people, have been turning people away from Hawken as it stands. We list our reasons for avoiding it and waiting until later of course, but the fact remains that people are now hearing from reviewers, players etc. that the game isn't worth it, and the number of people who have now left the game on steam shows that we aren't entirely wrong

mrvile, on March 02 2014 - 11:45 AM, said:

TLDR: If you can't enjoy the grind, how can you enjoy the game_

I think you've missed the point
The issue is that it doesn't look like a large number of people actually enjoy the grind. Hawken has a very small population and is in a genre based on the idea of fair fights and dominance based on skill. Hawken currently features a larger grind than many games that have been profitable (or at least have managed to not lose any money, like Tribes Ascend) and is MUCH less user friendly.

mrvile, on March 02 2014 - 11:50 AM, said:

That's too bad. If you need something more than the gameplay to keep you playing, how could games like Quake or Counterstrike ever succeed_ Right now I think that Hawken needs better matchmaking and a larger player base, but that's irrelevant to the grind. Matchmaking needs to get fixed and the player base will bulk up once the game goes F2P on Steam.

Quake and CS don't require that you spend 1000 hours to earn all the weapons bro. You're not fighting with just the plasma until you unlock the RL, RG, GL etc.

Edited by Beemann, March 02 2014 - 11:54 AM.

[Zext]

It's sad that I can look at these numbers and say to myself that this isn't all that bad compared to a lot of other things I've played. It's probably why most people say it's not that bad, because even though it's kinda bad on it's own it's still well below the 'f2p standard'.

Regardless, Hawken could use less grind. I'd say that things like pilot level should maybe instead rewards lots of HC instead of being used to gate internals and items behind an exp grind. If not, maybe some sort of way to refund things you've bought and regretted. Having to just deal with the loss of HC after having bought some items/internals/mech that you don't like or don't use is silly, especially considering how long it takes to get it.

[Beefsweat]

mrvile, on March 02 2014 - 11:50 AM, said:

That's too bad. If you need something more than the gameplay to keep you playing, how could games like Quake or Counterstrike ever succeed_ Right now I think that Hawken needs better matchmaking and a larger player base, but that's irrelevant to the grind. Matchmaking needs to get fixed and the player base will bulk up once the game goes F2P on Steam.

Otherwise there's nothing the game can do for you. Hawken isn't about progression, it's about playing matches. Don't you think you'll get to the point you're at now even with all the mechs and weapons unlocked and no grind at all if you don't enjoy the gameplay_

My point was that the gameplay itself and the quality of matches often isn't enough to keep me hooked on the game, and that the features outside of the actual gameplay like grinding for customization options aren't fun or appealing to me with the current level of average income. Counterstrike keeps me hooked because I don't have to work my ass off to get a sense that I'm doing anything worthwhile with my time in the game and I have a hell of a lot more friends that play CS than Hawken.

Edited by Beefsweat, March 02 2014 - 12:11 PM.

[mrvile]

Beemann, why do you need all the mechs and all the weapons_ Why do you even need 3 mechs to play_ I spent enough time playing just my Berserker (even though I had 8 other mechs) to unlock two other mechs anyway. People keep saying that you need all this other stuff to be viable in the game. When I started I was playing in low-mmr servers and rolling through with whatever I was playing with. I've seen people shred through teams with Fred. By the time I even learned enough of the game to be relatively competitive in the servers I was placed in, I had already accrued quite a bit of HC to put into whatever internals or unlock another mech.

Sorry, but Hawken has a pretty high skill ceiling. So does Counterstrike, and so does Quake. It's not like people go running off all QQ after getting stomped in several matches because people are better than them. If you can't deal with that then it's just not the game for you. Same with Hawken. I get stomped by level-30's with a full inventory of items/internals, and I also get stomped by people far below my progression level with a naked Fred. Hawken is a skill based game, no amount of extra content will make your experience any better if you can't deal with getting killed a lot. You play the game to get better, and hell you even earn some HC on the side.

Hawken is F2P. By nature, you're not going to have immediate access to all the content if you don't spend any money. If you want more content for free, you gotta grind. The other mechs or items or internals aren't going to make you a better player to the extent that the game would be considered P2W, they largely just add a bit of flavor and really only make a difference at the highest tier.

Right now the matches are only unenjoyable because matchmaking is a mess, it needs to get fixed. Whatever content you have unlocked isn't going to affect matchmaking, so grinding isn't really the problem here.

[mrvile]

Beefsweat, on March 02 2014 - 12:09 PM, said:

mrvile, on March 02 2014 - 11:50 AM, said:

That's too bad. If you need something more than the gameplay to keep you playing, how could games like Quake or Counterstrike ever succeed_ Right now I think that Hawken needs better matchmaking and a larger player base, but that's irrelevant to the grind. Matchmaking needs to get fixed and the player base will bulk up once the game goes F2P on Steam.

Otherwise there's nothing the game can do for you. Hawken isn't about progression, it's about playing matches. Don't you think you'll get to the point you're at now even with all the mechs and weapons unlocked and no grind at all if you don't enjoy the gameplay_

My point was that the gameplay itself and the quality of matches often isn't enough to keep me hooked on the game, and that the features outside of the actual gameplay like grinding for customization options aren't fun or appealing to me with the current level of average income. Counterstrike keeps me hooked because I don't have to work my ass off to get a sense that I'm doing anything worthwhile with my time in the game and I have a hell of a lot more friends that play CS than Hawken.

If you're playing the game to hoard unlocks and cosmetics without actually enjoying the gameplay, then you're playing the F2P metagame and that's more your problem than the game's. If you don't have enough friends who play the game and it's otherwise just not fun, sorry man. I'll agree that the game itself has its issues which affect how enjoyable it is, but again, reducing the grind will only make it better for the F2P metagamers, the gameplay itself won't change. It needs to be fixed elsewhere.

[AsianJoyKiller]

mrvile, on March 02 2014 - 12:10 PM, said:

Hawken is F2P. By nature, you're not going to have immediate access to all the content if you don't spend any money. If you want more content for free, you gotta grind. The other mechs or items or internals aren't going to make you a better player to the extent that the game would be considered P2W, they largely just add a bit of flavor and really only make a difference at the highest tier.

Why does the grind have to be so significant_

[TURDxSANDWICH]

Beemann, on March 02 2014 - 11:52 AM, said:

Actually the point of Borderlands 2 is ALSO to level up and get better loot
Game's based on Diablo dude, it's almost entirely about the grind

I know its not the best comparison.  I was just trying to illustrate that as I played BL2, it was never about getting to the next level or finding the next weapon.  I was having a blast playing through that game, and I just happened to stumble across a lot of cool isht along the way. I wasn't playing it so that I could eventually use those cooler grenades I picked up. I played it because it was fun.

Beemann, on March 02 2014 - 11:52 AM, said:

Except there are advantages. Some weapons/items/internals/mechs are better than others, and by not having those you increase the advantage that veteran players have over you. There's also advantages like being able to swap between fully-loaded-out mechs mid-match as the situation calls for it.

The GOAL is to fight with mechs, and the barrier to entry is the amount it costs to get about 3 proper mechs fully loaded out if you want to be playing on a proper even playing field. Even then it's not going to be even in a lot of ways, but at least if we're talking about well informed player A buying 3 somewhat diverse optimal mechs then that's the absolute minimum. It's going to take way longer for inexperienced/non-forum-going players

Certainly, that is true.  A mech with internals (esp air compressors) is going to be better than one without.  Its just that if we are defining the grind as the OP suggests to be getting from zero unlocks to all unlocks, then we are focussing on the wrong part of Hawken.  If all you need are 3 mechs to compete at any semblance of a competitive level, then we are talking about 10s of hours, not 1000+.  And those 10s of hours are the most beneficial anyway because you need that experience to compete at any level regarless of your loadout.

Beemann, on March 02 2014 - 11:52 AM, said:

The game's got like.. 3k players absolute max, and rarely pops up above 2k. It's getting stomped into the ground by DoD:S so far today, and that's pretty sad
I kinda doubt that a game like this is sustainable on that sort of population. While ADH is most likely leaning on a small portion of the playerbase, those players are only going to stay here as long as there's people to fight against and such. Hawken's numbers are dropping dangerously low right now, and I know for a fact that I, and several other people, have been turning people away from Hawken as it stands. We list our reasons for avoiding it and waiting until later of course, but the fact remains that people are now hearing from reviewers, players etc. that the game isn't worth it, and the number of people who have now left the game on steam shows that we aren't entirely wrong.

Totally agree that the game, as it is today, is not sustainable and most likely is not profitable.  But the grind as OP calculates, is the "Steam Patch" grind.  We don't have access to the real $$ figures.  The question to ask right now is if the early stages of this new economy is actually bringing in more $ per player than in prior versions of the economy.  If so, then that is progress.  If not, then they need to make some tweaks.

And another question, why are you turning people away from the game_  Certainly, the game has flaws.  No one would reasonably argue otherwise.  But are the flaws so great that we can't in good conscience recommend to someone that this game is worth playing_  Are we seriously turning away potential players from a fun game because the game doesn't perfectly fit into some ideal scenario where every single aspect of the game is perfectly balanced at every level of gameplay that is available for everyone for free_

[mrvile]

AsianJoyKiller, on March 02 2014 - 12:26 PM, said:

mrvile, on March 02 2014 - 12:10 PM, said:

Hawken is F2P. By nature, you're not going to have immediate access to all the content if you don't spend any money. If you want more content for free, you gotta grind. The other mechs or items or internals aren't going to make you a better player to the extent that the game would be considered P2W, they largely just add a bit of flavor and really only make a difference at the highest tier.

Why does the grind have to be so significant_

I know you don't want me to say this, AJK, but it's really just because the devs want to increase the incentive to spend money. That's all I can think of, and it's their decision. Like I said, I wouldn't mind if the grind were shorter, but it's not like I resent playing the game with what I have.

[Beefsweat]

mrvile, on March 02 2014 - 12:19 PM, said:

If you're playing the game to hoard unlocks and cosmetics without actually enjoying the gameplay, then you're playing the F2P metagame and that's more your problem than the game's. If you don't have enough friends who play the game and it's otherwise just not fun, sorry man. I'll agree that the game itself has its issues which affect how enjoyable it is, but again, reducing the grind will only make it better for the F2P metagamers, the gameplay itself won't change. It needs to be fixed elsewhere.

Nowhere did I say I play the game to hoard unlocks and cosmetics, try reading what I wrote again. More often than not I fail to enjoy the gameplay for several reasons, the most glaring being less-than-stellar matchmaking and a lack of friends to play with making average public games a tedious chore rather than a fun, fast, hi-skill affair. What's left outside of that gameplay itself_ Progression and customization is the only other feature left, to increase options and combat variety. I've got every mech and a decent amount of items and internals from earlier times when progression wasn't so laborious and was more of a secondary aspect of the game but only a handful are properly kitted out, and when I'm done playing a match there's nothing that excites me about scrolling through the garage and looking at whatever else I'd have to grind for 6+ hours to work up to. The gameplay is not satisfying enough to keep me hooked and the features outside of gameplay do not appeal to me or make me want to get back into that gameplay.

[AsianJoyKiller]

mrvile, on March 02 2014 - 12:32 PM, said:

AsianJoyKiller, on March 02 2014 - 12:26 PM, said:

mrvile, on March 02 2014 - 12:10 PM, said:

Hawken is F2P. By nature, you're not going to have immediate access to all the content if you don't spend any money. If you want more content for free, you gotta grind. The other mechs or items or internals aren't going to make you a better player to the extent that the game would be considered P2W, they largely just add a bit of flavor and really only make a difference at the highest tier.

Why does the grind have to be so significant_

I know you don't want me to say this, AJK, but it's really just because the devs want to increase the incentive to spend money. That's all I can think of, and it's their decision. Like I said, I wouldn't mind if the grind were shorter, but it's not like I resent playing the game with what I have.

And why couldn't the devs pursue other avenues of incentive people buying stuff_
As I pointed out earlier, there are several options that have been extremely profitable for other game that would work for Hawken, and Hawken hasn't even taken full advantage of the options they have available.

So with that in mind, why does the grind need to be so significant when there's other options that can be used to bring in money_

[PimpToad]

Started playing a couple days ago with several hours under my belt and I say the grind is just fine. You get enough seed money from the start to purchase 2 of the cheaper mechs and give it some items alongside the free Fred. Do I want to fully kit out my mechs to make it the most efficient possible_ Yes. Will I lose sleep over the fact I have to spend time grinding to do so_ No, not really.

It would be nice if the HC rate get a bit of a buff (or at least make the daily bonus to play 'x' amount of matches per day/mode to incentivize people playing at least an hour per day), but again it's not that big a deal. I would rather have a set goal to reach rather than relying on the RNG gods to get that rare 0.1% drop to craft my gear or grinding gold to buy that ridiculously expensive item on the marketplace.

Could it be better_ Well obviously there's room for improvement, but Hawken's system is already better in my eyes in comparison to some F2P models out there. Maybe turn off the ability to purchase a mech class until the player tries out the trial version for 2-3 matches or have the option of trying out ANY mech in training mode.

Either way this seems to be only a problem for people with the "Gotta catch 'em all!" Pokemon mentality. While it would be nice to have a versatile team of six, I'm in no hurry to fill up those empty slots just yet.

[mrvile]

Beefsweat, on March 02 2014 - 12:44 PM, said:

mrvile, on March 02 2014 - 12:19 PM, said:

If you're playing the game to hoard unlocks and cosmetics without actually enjoying the gameplay, then you're playing the F2P metagame and that's more your problem than the game's. If you don't have enough friends who play the game and it's otherwise just not fun, sorry man. I'll agree that the game itself has its issues which affect how enjoyable it is, but again, reducing the grind will only make it better for the F2P metagamers, the gameplay itself won't change. It needs to be fixed elsewhere.

Nowhere did I say I play the game to hoard unlocks and cosmetics, try reading what I wrote again. More often than not I fail to enjoy the gameplay for several reasons, the most glaring being less-than-stellar matchmaking and a lack of friends to play with making average public games a tedious chore rather than a fun, fast, hi-skill affair. What's left outside of that gameplay itself_ Progression and customization is the only other feature left, to increase options and combat variety. I've got every mech and a decent amount of items and internals from earlier times when progression wasn't so laborious and was more of a secondary aspect of the game but only a handful are properly kitted out, and when I'm done playing a match there's nothing that excites me about scrolling through the garage and looking at whatever else I'd have to grind for 6+ hours to work up to. The gameplay is not satisfying enough to keep me hooked and the features outside of gameplay do not appeal to me or make me want to get back into that gameplay.

Sounds like you just don't like this game anymore

[Beemann]

mrvile, on March 02 2014 - 12:10 PM, said:

Beemann, why do you need all the mechs and all the weapons_ Why do you even need 3 mechs to play_ I spent enough time playing just my Berserker (even though I had 8 other mechs) to unlock two other mechs anyway. People keep saying that you need all this other stuff to be viable in the game. When I started I was playing in low-mmr servers and rolling through with whatever I was playing with. I've seen people shred through teams with Fred. By the time I even learned enough of the game to be relatively competitive in the servers I was placed in, I had already accrued quite a bit of HC to put into whatever internals or unlock another mech.

1. MMR isn't necessarily an accurate representation of skill, and the current methods by which players are placed may be too slow or too fast. In a larger playerbase, this means that new players could very easily end up in the deep end with a CRT
2. I stated three mechs as a bare minimum for participating in higher end play. There are, and have always been, mechs that are necessary for higher MMR matches, and they'll also drastically improve output in low-level matches as well. As the newer/less skilled players discover the meta, it'll be a requirement in lower and lower matches. The nature of this game's balance patches also means that some of those mechs will become obsolete during certain periods of time, requiring more purchases to stay competitive.

mrvile, on March 02 2014 - 12:10 PM, said:

Sorry, but Hawken has a pretty high skill ceiling. So does Counterstrike, and so does Quake. It's not like people go running off all QQ after getting stomped in several matches because people are better than them. If you can't deal with that then it's just not the game for you. Same with Hawken. I get stomped by level-30's with a full inventory of items/internals, and I also get stomped by people far below my progression level with a naked Fred. Hawken is a skill based game, no amount of extra content will make your experience any better if you can't deal with getting killed a lot. You play the game to get better, and hell you even earn some HC on the side.

No, sorry. Hawken isn't within the same ballpark as Quake and Counter Strike. If someone beats you in Quake or CS, it's because they've mastered the free weapons that are available to everyone from the outset. In Hawken you can stomp on a newbie by hitting them over the head in a Sharpshooter or an Air Compressor'd Scout and you will absolutely wreck them unless you yourself are terrible. It's absolutely an uphill battle for new players, and just because you're willing to ignore it, doesn't mean everyone else is.

As far as the skill thing goes, clunky movement system, giant hitboxes, poorly implemented turn rate cap, terrible balance and a TTK comparable to CoD make mentioning this game in the same sentence as Quake and CS laughable.

mrvile, on March 02 2014 - 12:10 PM, said:

Hawken is F2P. By nature, you're not going to have immediate access to all the content if you don't spend any money. If you want more content for free, you gotta grind. The other mechs or items or internals aren't going to make you a better player to the extent that the game
would be considered P2W, they largely just add a bit of flavor and really only make a difference at the highest tier.

Protip: TF2 and Dota2 manage to have successful F2P without 1000 hours of grind

mrvile, on March 02 2014 - 12:10 PM, said:

Right now the matches are only unenjoyable because matchmaking is a mess, it needs to get fixed. Whatever content you have unlocked isn't going to affect matchmaking, so grinding isn't really the problem here.

Or it's because Hawken is unappealing and grindy, and large numbers of players are quitting

[Dorro]

AJK is right on all accounts and provides solid arguments and existing superior economy options currently active in other titles.

With everything that could be more polished or cleaned up in Hawken, including some glaring issues like VOIP chat and social functionality, the Hawken economy uses a draconic and outdated model that has been proven to be lagging behind more streamlined and evolved revenue sources- Again, most of which AJK has mentioned.

Economy more than anything is currently Hawken's greatest sin against player retention. Adhesive's ability to keep the doors open is only as good as their ability to pump fresh blood into the system, the game will not hold itself up on the noble credit cards of a handful of die-hards who buy everything with MC.

The start and end goal is to put players in the servers, whether they are alpha/beta vets, steam nemesis buy-ins, or just the eventual f2p release players, who will eventually make up the vast majority of the playerbase, if the game launches successfully and remains healthy.

In order to retain these free players, they must be able to play under the promise that they can achieve meaningful gain within the system without spending money. A certain, large percentage of the future Hawken playerbase will always be minimum-investment heroes, and the economic model must allow them to succeed while at the same time encouraging them to convert to paying customer through impulse buys.

The true believer who is willing to open his wallet because he loves the game will always have his place, but he alone cannot keep the servers full. If the free-2-player is not enticed and not retained, then the servers empty, and then not even the veterans who paid out of love will have anyone to play with.

[AsianJoyKiller]

Dorro, on March 02 2014 - 01:45 PM, said:

AJK is right

I like your style.

[mrvile]

Beemann, on March 02 2014 - 01:05 PM, said:

1. MMR isn't necessarily an accurate representation of skill, and the current methods by which players are placed may be too slow or too fast. In a larger playerbase, this means that new players could very easily end up in the deep end with a CRT
2. I stated three mechs as a bare minimum for participating in higher end play. There are, and have always been, mechs that are necessary for higher MMR matches, and they'll also drastically improve output in low-level matches as well. As the newer/less skilled players discover the meta, it'll be a requirement in lower and lower matches. The nature of this game's balance patches also means that some of those mechs will become obsolete during certain periods of time, requiring more purchases to stay competitive.

Point taken.

Beemann, on March 02 2014 - 01:05 PM, said:

No, sorry. Hawken isn't within the same ballpark as Quake and Counter Strike. If someone beats you in Quake or CS, it's because they've mastered the free weapons that are available to everyone from the outset. In Hawken you can stomp on a newbie by hitting them over the head in a Sharpshooter or an Air Compressor'd Scout and you will absolutely wreck them unless you yourself are terrible. It's absolutely an uphill battle for new players, and just because you're willing to ignore it, doesn't mean everyone else is.

As far as the skill thing goes, clunky movement system, giant hitboxes, poorly implemented turn rate cap, terrible balance and a TTK comparable to CoD make mentioning this game in the same sentence as Quake and CS laughable.

Coming from CS and UT, I'm not saying that Hawken requires the same amount of skill. That's not true at all. I'm just saying that Hawken does require skill (rather than just a straight P2W model) and that learning to play the game well is part of playing the game. Again, there are plenty of people out there who can hold their own in a variety of mechs, and it took them time and practice to get there. Merely owning the mechs and weapons and internals won't do it at all.

Beemann, on March 02 2014 - 01:05 PM, said:

Protip: TF2 and Dota2 manage to have successful F2P without 1000 hours of grind

I would be so happy if Hawken could hang with the leagues of Valve in the F2P arena. But it can't. That doesn't automatically make it Dungeon Keeper though.

Beemann, on March 02 2014 - 01:05 PM, said:

Or it's because Hawken is unappealing and grindy, and large numbers of players are quitting

If people don't like it they don't like it. There are plenty of people who won't grind a game, regardless of the length of the grind itself. It's more likely that they just don't like playing the game that they're playing though.

If the gameplay needs to be better to attract and retain players, then the gameplay needs to be addressed. I really don't think shortening the grind will supplement the gameplay as much as you think. Looking at your posts throughout the forums, it seems like you just straight up don't like this game...in many more aspects than just the grind. It really doesn't seem like anything Adhesive could do would bring you back at this point without giving you a completely different game. I'm sorry man.

Edited by mrvile, March 02 2014 - 02:01 PM.

[Dr_Freeze001]

Dorro, on March 02 2014 - 01:45 PM, said:

The true believer who is willing to open his wallet because he loves the game will always have his place, but he alone cannot keep the servers full. If the free-2-player is not enticed and not retained, then the servers empty, and then not even the veterans who paid out of love will have anyone to play with.

Hot damn, I 'll, be honest, I have never paid for anything in HAWKEN. But after that speech I feel compelled to buy some ski-

...WAIT!

Are you trying to guilt trip me_


Don't get me wrong, I love the game, but a player who isn't sure whether or not he'll keep playing the game doesn't have to pay. That's the whole point of the f2p model. Instead of a demo wich gives you limited access, they give everything away for free. All that they ask is that you put some time and effort into playing their game.

For me the fact that it's free makes me play, but the micro-transactions don't make me want to pay. I don't have the means to pay for little things on the Internet. I would pay a larger entry fee because it's an easy one time purchase. Multiple, smaller purchases may be better for some people, but for me it's too much of a hassle.


TL;DR - I'm willing to grind, but I'm not willing to pay.



(Really tho, holy fuzzybunny what a thead. We need some TL;DR's up in here)

Edited by Dr_Freeze001, March 02 2014 - 02:15 PM.

[Beemann]

mrvile, on March 02 2014 - 02:00 PM, said:

Coming from CS and UT, I'm not saying that Hawken requires the same amount of skill. That's not true at all. I'm just saying that Hawken does require skill (rather than just a straight P2W model) and that learning to play the game well is part of playing the game. Again, there are plenty of people out there who can hold their own in a variety of mechs, and it took them time and practice to get there. Merely owning the mechs and weapons and internals won't do it at all.

Requiring skill is too vague a statement. Even WoW requires skill, and as far as content that is advantageous and locked behind a paywall, you can still usually stomp on those people if they're worse than you past a certain threshold. Battlefield Heroes sold weapons with crit chance and pants that literally only made you immune to one of the Soldier abilities, but you could still *beat* those people if you were better than them
That still doesn't make the game not pay to win. You'd have to be so entirely excessive with your model to have someone win definitively 100% of the time through spending money

mrvile, on March 02 2014 - 02:00 PM, said:

I would be so happy if Hawken could hang with the leagues of Valve in the F2P arena. But it can't. That doesn't automatically make it Dungeon Keeper though.

It does put it within the P2Win space, which is broad and includes a wider variety of models and methods than simply Dungeon Keeper

mrvile, on March 02 2014 - 02:00 PM, said:

If people don't like it they don't like it. There are plenty of people who won't grind a game, regardless of the length of the grind itself. It's more likely that they just don't like playing the game that they're playing though.

If the gameplay needs to be better to attract and retain players, then the gameplay needs to be addressed. I really don't think shortening the grind will supplement the gameplay as much as you think. Looking at your posts throughout the forums, it seems like you just straight up don't like this game...in many more aspects than just the grind. It really doesn't seem like anything Adhesive could do would bring you back at this point without giving you a completely different game. I'm sorry man.

1. There are several gameplay and grind based issues that are driving people away from the game. This has been confirmed
2. You do realize that Post Ascension, Ascension, Pre-Ascension and early testing are all practically different games right_ ADH has been reworking their whole system every few months without solving the same basic issues. They've also been going out of their way in terms of making the game less and less viable at high level play in their attempts to market to a more casual audience... which they've so far failed to pick up

[mrvile]

Beemann, on March 02 2014 - 02:15 PM, said:

2. You do realize that Post Ascension, Ascension, Pre-Ascension and early testing are all practically different games right_ ADH has been reworking their whole system every few months without solving the same basic issues. They've also been going out of their way in terms of making the game less and less viable at high level play in their attempts to market to a more casual audience... which they've so far failed to pick up

Well I've only played post-Steam so I only know the current iteration of the game, and I like it. I am aware that Hawken has gone through a lot of changes, for better or for worse. That's more a problem with the beta/early access binge every developer seems to be going on right now. If you open a game up too early in development, you will alienate players as you make changes to the game, period. Of course, that's a discussion for an entirely new thread.

I don't really feel that Hawken is P2W. Maybe it's because I unlocked so much content with my initial purchase (I paid, so I should be winning right_). Maybe it's because I can only play up to 1800mmr servers and haven't witnessed the top tier because I'm not good enough. I don't know.

When I die, I usually feel that it's because the player who killed me is a better player, or because I made some dumb call and got myself into a bad situation. It never feels like someone has a mech that is stronger than mine. I mean, as someone with almost all the content unlocked, I can still only play to a certain skill level with any of these mechs and any combination of internals or items. That feels fair.

Maybe I am just ignorant. Maybe you just feel differently.