201 replies to this topic

[AsianJoyKiller]

Spam_Phisher, on March 02 2014 - 08:12 AM, said:

I don't get this argument_  so until I unlock all the things, this game isn't fun_  I'd say its the opposite. once I've reached 30 and unlocked all the stuff THEN the game is a grind.   no more rewards.   And in Hawken in particular I don't feel like i'm at a disadvantage because I don't have a fully loaded Ubermech.  my disadvantage is skill.   You can put some of these players in an empty Fred and they can kick my iron butt around the map with impunity (even if I had a fully loaded whatever).  I think you guys are looking at this the wrong way round.

I play games for the gameplay, not the progression.

A good game shouldn't need to reward you with baubles and shiny stuff to keep you from feeling bored or like it's a grind. The gameplay should be reward in and of itself. It also has the added benefit of retaining fans much better than progression based-rewards.
After all, if the gameplay is good, you'll keep playing as long as it's fun. But if the progression is what's keeping you locked in, then as soon as that ends, the game automatically becomes less appealing.

[Dr_Freeze001]

Don't forget the awesome community.

[Wasabi_Wei]

Just to get this out of the way: AJK - TDM rounds are 10 minutes since the lower TTK.
I agree the grind is a bit much, but I used a different approach. Since I mainly play TDM I used 10 minute rounds and 150 HC per round as a lowball average. I usually get 179, but even on a low team place finish on the losing side I just got 159 HC. 150 HC / 10 minutes = 15 HC per minute, or 900  HC per match-hour (excluding load & wait times). That sounds about right in everyday experience / passes my 'gut test'.

Using AJK's 24053 HC to set up an average mech, that equals 26.73 hours of playtime. 27 hours in TDM matches at 6 matches per hour = 162 TDM matches per mech. If you play 5 TDMs per night and play every day religiously, that's 32.4 days. About a mech per month for what I would consider an 'average' amount of playtime in a working person or active student's lifestyle.

Edited by Wasabi_Wei, March 02 2014 - 08:41 AM.

[MoltenGorilla]

I've never noticed having to really grind to get anything but then again the only thing I ever notice NOT having is air compressor which is real cheap.

[Gunmoku]

AsianJoyKiller, on March 02 2014 - 01:20 AM, said:

Keep in mind, all these numbers (especially the high average) are extremely optimistic, as they do not account for losing, the wait times between matches, or buying more than 1 set of items and internals.

To get anywhere near these numbers you would need to get back to back matches with minimal wait times, and win constantly.

EDIT: This also assumes you are able to purchase everything right away, and does not account for experience gain.

Admittedly, mathing it out like this does portray the grind as quite lengthy.  I kind of see why some people THINK this game is P2W, when it's not, and this is the sole reason why.  Best solution, as likely some other people have said, is increasing the HC gains in matches or introduce much more achievements and kill rewards that give HCs during matches.  People need to have that "Feel Good Slot Machine" somewhere to stay hooked.  If you're rewarding just enough activity in the game, you're encouraging lengthy playtime, therefore people would have tendencies to pay real money or grind it out longer.  There's a little of it already in the game, but it's not at the forefront.  If you make it just a bit more prevalent and reward players more often, then the economical grind would be lessened and not have to be totally rewritten from the ground up.

[DennisKnightPC]

Introducing an HC multiplier that grows (to a capped level) by playing whole matches without quitting would help reduce "ragequits" and make for a less grindy experience.  Don't even necessarily have to stay in the same server (so you take advantage of daily win bonuses across game types) but as soon as you leave a match in progress the multiplier disappears.
Example:
play 1 complete match gain 1.1x multiplier
2 matches 1.2x
3 matches 1.3x
4 matches 1.4x
5 matches 1.5x

leaving a game in progress or exiting Hawken drops it back to 1.0x but you can carry a multiplier between servers.  The multiplier should not apply to the 250HC daily bonuses. Example: (179x1.3) + 250 = 483 HC

[driedjello]

F2P games must be compelling to play (as is Hawken) and the grind MUST be long to incentive a portion of the community to spend real money to bypass it.  I think if they reduce the grind, they lose out on revenue.

[TURDxSANDWICH]

Obviously, those numbers in the OP are inarguable.  Its a long way to unlock everything using HC.  But I've never thought of Hawken like that.  I've never played the game just to get to the next level.  I've always played it because its fun to blow up robots with rewarding team play.  The grind is just something that happens along the way.

I know this example isnt the best for many reasons, so don't focus too much on the actual games and tear me apart.  A game like Skyrim exists soley to level up your character.  Thats the goal of the game.  Level up your character to its max.  The "gameplay" merely exists as a vehicle to do that.  On the other hand a game like Borderlands 2 also has a leveling system, but its not front and center.  Intsead, the game is about blowing stuff up with fun weapons.  And as an aside, you get to level your character up along the way.  The focus is on the actual gameplay with the leveling system there because it can be.

I've always thought of Hawken like that.  The goal of the game is to have fun on the battlefield and let everything else fall into place after that. Now, unlike BL2, there isn't even any real advantage to leveling up to the max in Hawken.  The only real purpose of leveling up everything to the max is for the completionists out there.  But you dont need to level everything up to compete.

I guess my whole point is that the long grind is irrelevant because the goal of Hawken isnt to unlock everything nor does it give you any advantage.  The goal of Hawken is to fight with mechs.

Now, I'm going to give the devs the benefit of the doubt because they have the numbers and say this long grind makes the game more profitable (if they even are profitable) than a shorter one.  And if the long grind makes the game earn more money, but is also mostly irrelevant to playing the game, then what's the problem with it_

[Weezl3]

So, this is entirely unrealistic. I have a humongous number of hours in this game compared to anyone else I've talked to since they reset the time counters, and I don't have nearly the 700-1000 hours the original post states is necessary. And yet, I have at least one of every mech fully leveled, with all the weapons unlocked, and at least one full set of mkII or mkIII internals and items. I also have close to 100,000 HC left over. I've never purchased a HC boost or an XP boost, so I really don't see what all the fuss is about here.

TL;DR: the grind isn't nearly as bad as the numbers AJK is using would suggest. So get out there and enjoy yourself and see where it takes you.

[DFTR]

I only feel it's a grind when leveling up mechs which aren't my playstyle like the Vanguard.  

That being said I own every mech with the exception of the G2.  I never leveled up the Assault or I would buy him.  Assault is now almost at level 5 but I do find him boring so will shelve it for a time.

I like the idea of a bonus to xp for staying in server longer.

BTW, pilot level is meaningless; they should remove that badge/icon and instead replace it w/ a badge for % of matches quit!
0-10%- Platinum
10-15%- Gold
15-25%- Silver
25-50% Bronze
50+% fuzzy bunny

Rather than a punishment, we can instead let people see how reliable a player is_  This would also stop some of the whining that one side has more level30 pilots than others.

[AsianJoyKiller]

Weezl3, on March 02 2014 - 10:00 AM, said:

So, this is entirely unrealistic. I have a humongous number of hours in this game compared to anyone else I've talked to since they reset the time counters, and I don't have nearly the 700-1000 hours the original post states is necessary. And yet, I have at least one of every mech fully leveled, with all the weapons unlocked, and at least one full set of mkII or mkIII internals and items. I also have close to 100,000 HC left over. I've never purchased a HC boost or an XP boost, so I really don't see what all the fuss is about here.

TL;DR: the grind isn't nearly as bad as the numbers AJK is using would suggest. So get out there and enjoy yourself and see where it takes you.

Actually, it is.
You do realize it used to be easier to progress, right_

If you're basing your idea of the grind on older versions of the economy, then your thinking is highly flawed.

[Zaxik]

Guys, just dont HOARD, buy only what you plan on using.

The ONLY mandatory purchases are on mechs and internals. Default weapons are mostly sufficient enough, hell, sometimes they're even better than alternatives.

Mk2/3 items give no real advantage over Mk1 items which are unlocked for free by playing the game. In fact, I think Mk1 items give you more versability, because you can react on different situations rather than spam detonator over and over.

200 hours in game and I already have pretty much everything I want. All mechs, most of them equipped with internals, few Mk3 items, some alternative weapons I'll never use...


Also I don't think it used to be easier to progress (maybe back when I wasn't playing yet). Those "free" mech unlocks really weren't free at all, you had to pay for ranks in order to get next mech and those ranks were rather expensive.

I might be completely wrong, it's just my opinion and I almost never support my opinions with numbers, because, well, even if I was good at math, there would still be someone who would make me look stupid by proving that my math is wrong. Not worth the effort :-P

Edited by Zaxik, March 02 2014 - 10:21 AM.

[AsianJoyKiller]

Zaxik, on March 02 2014 - 10:19 AM, said:

Guys, just dont HOARD, buy only what you plan on using.

And what if you're a new player who doesn't know what you'll be using. If what you picked is useful, or fits with your playstyle_

Quote

The ONLY mandatory purchases are on mechs and internals. Default weapons are mostly sufficient enough, hell, sometimes they're even better than alternatives.

And sometimes they're not.
Again, what of the people who don't know how the alternatives will work out for them_

Quote

Mk2/3 items give no real advantage over Mk1 items which are unlocked for free by playing the game. In fact, I think Mk1 items give you more versability, because you can react on different situations rather than spam detonator over and over.

Except, you know, the whole having a larger quantity of limited items advantage_
Some of us manage to live long enough where we run into the same situation enough times to make use of a single item type...
Besides that, the viable item selection is actually pretty limited.

Quote

Also I don't think it used to be easier to progress (maybe back when I wasn't playing yet). Those "free" mech unlocks really weren't free at all, you had to pay for ranks in order to get next mech and those ranks were rather expensive.

I might be completely wrong, it's just my opinion and I almost never support my opinions with numbers, because, well, even if I was good at math, there would still be someone who would make me look stupid by proving that my math is wrong. Not worth the effort :-P

The economy has gone through multiple changes, from how much things costs, to how much you gain.

[AsianJoyKiller]

Here's a question, for those of you who think the grind isn't that bad, why are you against reducing it_ Why not make it easier on free players, and create an economy that doesn't look p2w to many people (And again, it doesn't matter if you personally don't believe it's p2w. That's not the point.)_

And please don't give the tired and trite, "Devs need to eat too" argument. That's nonsense. It perfectly feasible to reduce the grind and still have a profitable game, especially when the game is like Hawken and hasn't taken full advantage of other profitable options.

[Beefsweat]

As a 'veteran' player I gotta say the new level of grindiness really turns me off. I'm a filthy casual if nothing else, I've got a life and a full-time job and I go to school so I haven't ever had the most time to dump into the game. Every match I'm left disheartened by the laughably tiny amount of HC income, knowing that I'll have to sink 8+ more hours into the game if I want to unlock one new weapon or maybe one item+an internal. I've always enjoyed hawken's gameplay/atmosphere and that's what keeps me coming back, but these days my friends list is dead and solo Hawken can become a very boring and unsatisfying experience very quickly, courtesy of not so great matchmaking. For me, there isn't anything to look forward to outside of the gameplay, and often the gameplay isn't enough incentive to try to earn things like achievements and HC or whatever else. Just my .02¢

Edited by Beefsweat, March 02 2014 - 11:38 AM.

[TURDxSANDWICH]

Personally, its not that i think the grind isnt that bad, just that a long grind is irrelevant.  Hawken isnt about leveling up, its about competing on the battlefield.  Now, if a shorter grind can prove to be just as profitable as a longer one, then of course there is no reason not to also make the game cater more to completionists as well.  My only concern in regards to the grind is profitability.  The game needs to make money or else there is no game.

Here's a question...  Not that I'm trying to ask a leading question, but rather legitimately asking a legitimate question.  Is there money to be made with Hakwen's "P2W ambiguity" in the early stages of the game_  Is there more money to be gained by feigning an appearance that paying will help you than there is money to be lost by turning away people who refuse to play a game they believe is P2W_

[MexichanMan]

I agree that the current hc grind is a little out of hand. According to the in-game stat, I have 700+ hours of play time (I don't know if that is strictly play time or not) and I have every mech unlocked and max level with at least one item/internal loadout on each one (Some I even have every item and internal unlocked). I don't think that if I put 700 hours into this game with a fresh account I would be in the same place I am now. The grind was a much better back before all of this imo.

For a more reasonable grind I think that a player with 200+ hours should be able to get all of the mechs unlocked with at least 1 item/internal loadout on each one.

Also: I think they removed unlocking universal items mk1 items with max mech ranks.

Edited by MexichanMan, March 02 2014 - 11:44 AM.

[mrvile]

Okay here are my thoughts.

I'm a new player. I picked up the Nemesis bundle on Steam and I've been playing for a couple weeks now. My Steam time shows about 74 hours, but a lot of that is AFK in-menu time. My actual playtime is about 34 hours.

Yeah I bought the Nemesis bundle. I was really interested in the game when it popped up on Steam and I didn't want to wait for F2P to open up. I did a little research and it seemed like a great value, and I don't mind spending money on games...ROI is usually pretty good on video games in general, as long as you look into what you're buying. The Nemesis bundle comes with 9 mechs in addition to Fred, all the alternative weapons, and some HC/MC to play with. I really liked the variety of mechs I had to start with because I value variety in games and it helps me get a better picture of how the game plays (though Fred is enjoyable to play). So I played a bunch, decided I was an A-class type and started focusing on the Berserker. Started saving HC... Double XP weekend rolls around, I play a bunch, level up several other mechs. By now I have enough HC to buy 2 mechs, so I picked up the Scout and Predator. I love the Scout but realized that I can't play Predator at all. Oh well, it's not like I spent any real money on it. I play a bunch of Scout, unlocking weapons and purchasing internals as I go. I save up some more HC and purchased the Infiltrator to complete my A-class collection. I'm not sure how I like the Infiltrator, but I'm glad I have him because one day I'll get bored and play it more. I've since started working on my C-class skills (which are terrible BTW) with my Rocketeer.

Point is, I have 34 hours of playtime and I have earned enough HC to unlock a few mechs as well as many internals, items, and weapons. I have 13 mechs in my stable. I get bored playing Berserker and Scout all the time, I have so many other mechs to turn to in order to keep things interesting. I've only spent the initial $30 for the Nemesis bundle.

That being said, I think that without the Nemesis bundle, I'd feel a little overwhelmed by the amount of mechs that I don't have and the looming grind ahead of me. However, I need to always remember that the game is free to play and that I'm able to have an enjoyable time playing Fred and blasting other mechs. I could literally not spend a single penny on the game and still have a handful of mechs unlocked after a few weeks of playing. With my $30 investment (which is on the lower side of AAA game pricing) I get a very wholesome gaming experience that feels worth the money I've spent.

The thing is, people keep talking about "the grind, the grind" but the grind is literally the game itself. You earn HC by playing the game, it's as simple as that. If you don't enjoy the grind, how can you enjoy the game at all_ If Fred isn't your playstyle, it doesn't take that long to unlock another mech, or even a couple. You do so just by playing the game. Don't have the patience_ Then you have the option of paying to unlock, which is fine.

F2P games do take advantage of the "the grass is greener on the other side" mindset and Hawken is no different. I can stare down the list of mechs I don't own and fantasize about how much better, say, the Sharpshooter might be. But in my experience, I play the best with the handful of mechs I learned the game with, and would be perfectly content sticking to those mechs for a long time. I'm the kind of person who likes to have a stable of "rainy-day" mechs, and that's what the grind/money is for. I enjoy the grind because I enjoy the game.

Am I against reducing the grind_ No, why would I be_ I'm just playing the game, and the rate at which new mechs show up in my stable honestly doesn't matter to me. But I'm in no way mad at the current grind. I'll admit that it does take quite some time to unlock mechs, but I don't care, I'm playing the game.

TLDR: If you can't enjoy the grind, how can you enjoy the game_

Edited by mrvile, March 02 2014 - 11:53 AM.

[Zaxik]

AsianJoyKiller, on March 02 2014 - 10:51 AM, said:

And what if you're a new player who doesn't know what you'll be using. If what you picked is useful, or fits with your playstyle_

I used to be a new player as well, just saying... and I sure as hell did mistakes like spending tons of HC on advanced armor fusor for A mech or EOC repeater for infil even though I've never learned to use it, so what_ We all do mistakes and we should learn from them. Being new is hard in any game. Besides, these days there are tutorials on how to spend HC wisely. I had nothing when I started playing.

AsianJoyKiller, on March 02 2014 - 10:51 AM, said:

Except, you know, the whole having a larger quantity of limited items advantage_
Some of us manage to live long enough where we run into the same situation enough times to make use of a single item type...
Besides that, the viable item selection is actually pretty limited.

Items are overrated. I get on killing spree and play for 10 minutes without items just fine (because I don't respawn). You can equip pretty much anything and call it a day. As long as you can handle your mech, you don't really need items. If you can't handle your mech, items aren't really going to save you.

AsianJoyKiller, on March 02 2014 - 10:51 AM, said:

The economy has gone through multiple changes, from how much things costs, to how much you gain.

Agree on this one, but I'm quite sure it wasn't THAT much different. Ever since I was playing, the game was quite grindy. And oh, the feeling when I finally could buy something I wanted, that satisfaction.. it's a carrot and a yummy one IMHO.


Your points are not entirely valid in my opinion, but yeah sure, let's make it less grindy if it satisfies the majority, I honestly don't really mind. If the majority feels that it's too steep and discourages them from playing, then perhaps something should be done about it. Do whatever you feel should be done to make people want to play more. But please, let's keep the carrot on the sweet spot, don't feed players with it just because they want to.

[mrvile]

Beefsweat, on March 02 2014 - 11:38 AM, said:

For me, there isn't anything to look forward to outside of the gameplay, and often the gameplay isn't enough incentive to try to earn things like achievements and HC or whatever else.

That's too bad. If you need something more than the gameplay to keep you playing, how could games like Quake or Counterstrike ever succeed_ Right now I think that Hawken needs better matchmaking and a larger player base, but that's irrelevant to the grind. Matchmaking needs to get fixed and the player base will bulk up once the game goes F2P on Steam.

Otherwise there's nothing the game can do for you. Hawken isn't about progression, it's about playing matches. Don't you think you'll get to the point you're at now even with all the mechs and weapons unlocked and no grind at all if you don't enjoy the gameplay_