135 replies to this topic

[AsianJoyKiller]

PlagueDoctor, on March 30 2014 - 05:29 PM, said:

So I think before the derail, we boiled it down to the EOC-P needed some trap laying capabilities_ Perhaps a fast fire rate out of combat to get traps down quick_

I'd love to multi mine laying and a faster projectile speed.
But if it's just speeding up the rate of fire, I'd want to see the heat gen dropped somewhat.

[PlagueDoctor]

AsianJoyKiller, on March 30 2014 - 05:33 PM, said:

PlagueDoctor, on March 30 2014 - 05:29 PM, said:

So I think before the derail, we boiled it down to the EOC-P needed some trap laying capabilities_ Perhaps a fast fire rate out of combat to get traps down quick_

I'd love to multi mine laying and a faster projectile speed.
But if it's just speeding up the rate of fire, I'd want to see the heat gen dropped somewhat.

I feel like Upping RoF and lowering heat gen (while out of combat) would be easier to modify than reworking it to (possibly charge up) to drop multiple mines.

[Onstrava]

This the the bouncing betty idea I was talking about.

Edited by Onstrava, March 30 2014 - 08:38 PM.

[KylarxS]

@AJK I believe you've seen the pic posted regarding my mech profile and I believe i'm at least slightly better than average_ I can say that I play predator rather well and I usually only aim medics, C-classes with their back turn to me in turret mode or those damage by at least half their HP. In most games there are at least one or two in the enemy team who can see pass our stalker mode even if I'm not moving and they will engage in battle with me. Most of the time I would just fight along since running away has a lower chance of survival rate anyway. The reason I wanted a boost to the breacher is because while it can be used for close to mid ranged combat, you will barely hit the enemy with breacher uncharged in mid range combat and if you plan on using breacher in close combat without the element of surprise I would say you usually get beaten down faster than an A-class mech. Furthermore, the breacher has a ~1 sec CD (tested) and takes about ~.7_ sec to charge. Meaning its usefulness in mid range combat is also very limited. I don't want a speed buff because like you said it would be similar to a flak cannon. The fact that we can't lay mines when boosting means we can't retreat without taking damage while laying mines. If you were to fire mines the speed of the mine is so slow that you can actually see the mine flying towards you.

@onstrava I like the idea where you can plant the mines on the ceiling and let it drop down..that way most people wouldn't be able to avoid the mines that easily and they have to look everywhere instead of just the ground ( you will have the vision of the ground when walking usually anyway) so the land mines as of now will usually only work on people not paying attention on where they're going or are in a hurry to escape or chase someone.

[AsianJoyKiller]

The purpose of this video is very specific. It's not to prove the Pred is great in direct combat, or anything like that.

It's about showing how well the EOC-P supplements the Breacher's heavy burst damage if you can consistently direct hit with the mines.

It's clear that if I were able to land more EOC-P shots, I'd have much less difficulty in direct combat. To me, it's obvious the Breacher doesn't need any buffs. It's performing it's role of inflicting heavy burst damage quite admirably. But the Predator's combat failings are a result of a inconsistent and relatively difficult to use (in direct combat) secondary.

So if you were to buff the usability of the EOC-P outside of premeditated trap-laying, the fighting capabilities of the Predator would be much better. If you could rely on the EOC-P for your bread and butter damage, then it would be fine for the Breacher to remain as the heavy, yet infrequent, punch.



I've got more video to cut and review, but I won't be able to get it done anytime soon, so I'll give you this small example.

Edited by AsianJoyKiller, March 31 2014 - 02:26 AM.

[FenixStryk]

I would have voted in the poll if any of the secondary suggestions to "fix" the Pred were what I thought it needed. I think it really comes down to the EOC-P being too unwieldy. Faster projectile speed, perhaps faster firing speed and remote detonation access if you want to get crazy would all be potential fixes that attack the root of the problem.

I have zero reason to believe the issue is related to the Breacher or Stalker ability. It's just the EOC-P being bad because it was designed using a defunct anti-DPS mindset -- one that the Incinerator promptly abandoned.

[KylarxS]

FenixStryk, on March 31 2014 - 02:37 AM, said:

I would have voted in the poll if any of the secondary suggestions to "fix" the Pred were what I thought it needed. I think it really comes down to the EOC-P being too unwieldy. Faster projectile speed, perhaps faster firing speed and remote detonation access if you want to get crazy would all be potential fixes that attack the root of the problem.

I have zero reason to believe the issue is related to the Breacher or Stalker ability. It's just the EOC-P being bad because it was designed using a defunct anti-DPS mindset -- one that the Incinerator promptly abandoned.

How do you chase after the damaged mechs when you walk so slow in stalker mode_

@AJK and you said you don't use charged breacher much lol

[FenixStryk]

KylarxS, on March 31 2014 - 04:21 AM, said:

How do you chase after the damaged mechs when you walk so slow in stalker mode_

...just... boost_ I get that Stalker is the theme of this Mech, but that doesn't suddenly mean there is zero use in boosting or dodging whatsoever. You only really need it for the wall-hacks and the opener.

If EOC-P was actually a good weapon, there wouldn't be this constant need to hide and do nothing all game every game. The Mech needs a proper secondary, and it wouldn't take all that much to make it combat viable while still keeping with the "Trapper" theme.

[DFTR]

AsianJoyKiller, on March 31 2014 - 02:24 AM, said:

The purpose of this video is very specific. It's not to prove the Pred is great in direct combat, or anything like that.

It's about showing how well the EOC-P supplements the Breacher's heavy burst damage if you can consistently direct hit with the mines.

It's clear that if I were able to land more EOC-P shots, I'd have much less difficulty in direct combat. To me, it's obvious the Breacher doesn't need any buffs. It's performing it's role of inflicting heavy burst damage quite admirably. But the Predator's combat failings are a result of a inconsistent and relatively difficult to use (in direct combat) secondary.

So if you were to buff the usability of the EOC-P outside of premeditated trap-laying, the fighting capabilities of the Predator would be much better. If you could rely on the EOC-P for your bread and butter damage, then it would be fine for the Breacher to remain as the heavy, yet infrequent, punch.

I've got more video to cut and review, but I won't be able to get it done anytime soon, so I'll give you this small example.

I think we were saying the same thing_  A faster puck shot projectile would help tremendously with hitting/leading airborne targets.  I agree the Breecher is fine.  I think you may have landed a direct hit on the beserker w/ EOC-P in the first conflict, but it again seems like most of the damage you're doing w/ EOC was placing mines.

BTW, thanks for the video.  Looking forward to seeing more of your Predator in play.

Edited by DFTR, March 31 2014 - 04:54 AM.

[KylarxS]

FenixStryk, on March 31 2014 - 04:26 AM, said:

KylarxS, on March 31 2014 - 04:21 AM, said:

How do you chase after the damaged mechs when you walk so slow in stalker mode_

...just... boost_ I get that Stalker is the theme of this Mech, but that doesn't suddenly mean there is zero use in boosting or dodging whatsoever. You only really need it for the wall-hacks and the opener.

If EOC-P was actually a good weapon, there wouldn't be this constant need to hide and do nothing all game every game. The Mech needs a proper secondary, and it wouldn't take all that much to make it combat viable while still keeping with the "Trapper" theme.

I meant while in stalker mode..and getting behind enemy lines..you can't boost since there will be other enemies around. Think of it like this - some mechs are engaging at a place. One of them get badly damaged and boost away. If you were to chase him you usually wouldn't boost to not attract attention right_ So in the end you have to walk slowly and by the time you reach there the enemy mech would have probably repaired most of the damage.

[StubbornPuppet]

It's called a "Predator", not a "Sneaky Defense Mech".  A Predator is an alpha hunter.  But that's just me having a problem with the name not matching the play style...  but still...

I think what really messes it up for the Pred, in my opinion, is that it's supposed to be so sneaky, but it's not very sneaky.

1. The cloak is still really easy to see, especially for players who have lowered the graphic quality.  Even with graphics on ultimate, they're pretty easy to see, even while under max stealth.
2. The mines are way, way too easy to see - flashing and glowing brighter than anything else in the game, only a real nincompoop would step on them.
3. Firing the mines makes a very loud and signature sound which can be heard from great distances.   With headphones, you can instantly tell exactly where they were fired from AND exactly where they've landed (but you can see that easily as well).
4. If a Pred HAS been seen, it's pretty much over unless they're a good distance out and near quick cover and have room to get away.

I concede that some players have really been able to excel at the Predator... but it still feels out of place and weak to me.

Edited by StubbornPuppet, March 31 2014 - 10:44 AM.

[AsianJoyKiller]

DFTR, on March 31 2014 - 04:53 AM, said:

I think we were saying the same thing_  A faster puck shot projectile would help tremendously with hitting/leading airborne targets.  I agree the Breecher is fine.  I think you may have landed a direct hit on the beserker w/ EOC-P in the first conflict, but it again seems like most of the damage you're doing w/ EOC was placing mines.

BTW, thanks for the video.  Looking forward to seeing more of your Predator in play.

There's actually a fair amount of direct hits in that short vid. It's more clear in other clips I haven't had the chance to upload, including a few air shots.

KylarxS, on March 31 2014 - 06:39 AM, said:

I meant while in stalker mode..and getting behind enemy lines..you can't boost since there will be other enemies around. Think of it like this - some mechs are engaging at a place. One of them get badly damaged and boost away. If you were to chase him you usually wouldn't boost to not attract attention right_ So in the end you have to walk slowly and by the time you reach there the enemy mech would have probably repaired most of the damage.

You don't chase in Stalker mode. Stalker is for opening, not finishing.
If attracting attention is going to get you killed, then you really shouldn't be there, regardless of your cloaking ability. If you want to be finishing people off behind enemy lines, you shouldn't be chasing them there. You should already be there waiting for them. That's how you get double and triple kills with the Predator, by killing low-health mechs that come running into your waiting arms.

[Fstroke]

I would have voted but the poll is bias as it only lets people vote who think the pred needs to change. Anyways if you want to make it better as a trap layer by making it a charged eoc weapon ok I guess. I just feel like that will pucs the combat effectiveness of this mech go to op territory. Now it will have super high damage burst primary and secondary, and the secondary now has what I presume is a spread shot.

[Stingz]

Fstroke, on March 31 2014 - 12:58 PM, said:

I would have voted but the poll is bias as it only lets people vote who think the pred needs to change. Anyways if you want to make it better as a trap layer by making it a charged eoc weapon ok I guess. I just feel like that will pucs the combat effectiveness of this mech go to op territory. Now it will have super high damage burst primary and secondary, and the secondary now has what I presume is a spread shot.

Raider already has that, EOC in one hand and MIRV in the other, point-blank can one shot a Tech (add Detonator for a sure kill).

[BoompigXD]

Yeah, fix the fuzzy bunny poll. It's super biased.

[KylarxS]

Quote

You don't chase in Stalker mode. Stalker is for opening, not finishing.
If attracting attention is going to get you killed, then you really shouldn't be there, regardless of your cloaking ability. If you want to be finishing people off behind enemy lines, you shouldn't be chasing them there. You should already be there waiting for them. That's how you get double and triple kills with the Predator, by killing low-health mechs that come running into your waiting arms.

But there are some maps that are huge and you have to take a big detour to get there right_ And if you were standing at the back waiting and he comes your way you kill him someone else saw you wouldn't that result in the same thing which is you getting chased_ If you recall looking at the pic I posted I got a kill streak of 10 so I'm pretty sure I've been playing it right.