91 replies to this topic

[Phantasmo]

Dear community,

Thank you very much for considering reading my post. I hope you will enjoy the read.

• Kindly launch lovely Hawken, enter a game, move the mouse to the right (or left). Notice how much you turned. Now do it faster.
  
• YES, you actually turn much more slowly when you move the mouse faster.
  
• When you move the mouse faster, for example, when fighting one of those flying dear lovely light mechs glying over/around you.
  
• Flying dear lovely mechs that need 1 second to dodge 20 meters. Meaning you must turn a 20 meters arc in a second if you want to hit them.
  
• WHICH IS SIMPLY NOT POSSIBLE THANKS TO THE god sent TURN CAPS.
  
• Yes, that's right. If the light guy is close to you you simply can't hit him. It's not skill. It's plain math.
  
• Add: heavy mechs move slower and offer a much bigger hit box: it's way easier to hit a heavy mech.
  
• Add: heavy mechs dodge distance is much smaller, meaning most of the time you can't avoid the splash area of TOW, Corsairs, Grenades etc.
  
• Light mechs carry the same heavy weapons as heavy mechs, which means the HP difference is not that wide: normally you can take one more TOW than the other light mech. "Effective HP pool" anybody_
  
• Light mechs are smaller yet somehow the manage to carry the same amount of internals and items.

Why are there turning caps in the first place_
Why is it so difficult for you to see that BUNNY HOPPING >>>>>>> LARGE HP POOL_

Thank you very much for reading, I hope you enjoyed.

[HubbaBubba9849]

Indeed. Out in the open, in a 1v1 scenario, an A-class typically has an advantage over a C-class. The C-class mechs are designed to be most effective in team play. You can't say you wouldn't, or haven't, pissed yourself at the sight of a group of brawlers and/or vangaurds headed your way.

However, given the proper environment, a C-class will certainly have the advantage in a 1v1 scenario. For example, a Grenadier in the tunnels of Origin has home-field advantage over any A-class.

Edited by HubbaBubba9849, April 01 2014 - 05:55 PM.

[hendman]

Just one remark, you don't turn slower because you move your mouse faster. You might move it so fast that you reach the end of your mousepad, and the mech on your screen only moved half the distance it did when you moved the mouse slower, but that is because a lot of the mouse input is discarded when you exceed the turncap.

[Phantasmo]

HubbaBubba9849, on April 01 2014 - 05:52 PM, said:

However, given the proper environment, a C-class will certainly have the advantage in a 1v1 scenario. For example, a Grenadier in the tunnels of Origin has home-field advantage over any A-class.

You're absolutely right, heavy guys are tunnel fighters.
That's why no sane A-class pilot will enter a tunnel if there are the slightest chances of coming across a heavy mech.

It's the fast guy who decides whether or not he will engage in combat.

[Phantasmo]

hendman, on April 01 2014 - 05:57 PM, said:

Just one remark, you don't turn slower because you move your mouse faster. You might move it so fast that you reach the end of your mousepad, and the mech on your screen only moved half the distance it did when you moved the mouse slower, but that is because a lot of the mouse input is discarded when you exceed the turncap.

I thought that and I specifically tested it, and I found that I was moving slower.
If I move the mouse at say 5cm/s I turn  x degrees, but when I move the mouse at some odd 10cm/s or 20cm/s I actuall turn less degrees.

This means you must move the mouse very slow when fighting people who turn fast. It just makes no sense.

[Hijinks_The_Turtle]

I have a feeling they need to do some more testing to fine-tune the balance between these two extremities.  However that will take much time and effort.  I'm not really sure how to balance them well enough to give them both proper balance.  I wonder how ADH will deal with this.

Edited by Hijinks_The_Turtle, April 01 2014 - 06:02 PM.

[EM1O]

give me my Vanguard and if you in your Berzerker are fool enough to irritate me, and i'll show you a sudden improvement in my KDR.
conversely, i'll shred your Van with MY Berz, and kickup my KDR again.
it's all in the math_ i think not.
what are you, a math major_ that's all you post all over the place on forums about, and whining about A-class "advantages".
Riot!
Gawd but this fun!

edit: one note: this thread reads like LoneWolf playing. a balanced team distributed across all 3 classes, with good Teamspeak or mumble coms & tactical coordination will utilize the best merits of each mech and the player driving it.  No single mech is "better than" another, if there is no unity. Only exception is DM, and that's really just recreation/practice playing, there.

***nother edit: careful on DM. lotsa folks like to team up 3or4 on Teamspeak, and wolfpack a DM. they only attack each other after they've slottered the unsuspecting. you've been warned (if you haven't figured it out yet).

Edited by EM1O, April 01 2014 - 06:31 PM.

[Silverfire]

Have you considered using your dodge not only to dodge incoming enemy fire or to get out of the way, but to simultaneously use the dodge function to reposition yourself and create space between you and your opponent so that you can get a clear shot_ Just a friendly tip if you're struggling a bit with hitting flying A classes. Tactic works pretty well.

[AsianJoyKiller]

Phantasmo, on April 01 2014 - 05:51 PM, said:

Yes, that's right. If the light guy is close to you you simply can't hit him. It's not skill. It's plain math.

You need a new calculator and more math classes.

EDIT: BTW, the difference between a C-Class and A-Class dodge distance is not all that significant. It is only 1 A-Class width longer. Close enough that if you both dodge the same direction and then walk towards each other, you'll scrape sides.

Edited by AsianJoyKiller, April 01 2014 - 06:26 PM.

[EM1O]

AJK is right.

[Phantasmo]

Silverfire, on April 01 2014 - 06:11 PM, said:

Have you considered using your dodge not only to dodge incoming enemy fire or to get out of the way, but to simultaneously use the dodge function to reposition yourself and create space between you and your opponent so that you can get a clear shot_ Just a friendly tip if you're struggling a bit with hitting flying A classes. Tactic works pretty well.

Yes, also spamming shields etc but they can close in too while dodging, and they dodge more often and a longer distance.
I normally do well with my Brawler and I've been increasing my MMR lately, still far from the top but definitely moving forward.
It normally feels like a balanced match except when I come across one of the veterans who know the tricks: the light mech can completely dodge a TOW air burst but the heavy can't, both because of the larger hit box and the smaller dodge distance.

It's very easy to land hits on a heavy mech, but the opposite depends a lot on the light mech moving and dodging.

Some veterans I've played agains will score one or two TOW hits on me, then flee, fast repair whatever damage I dealt and start over.
I can't repair as fast as they can, neither can I follow them, so there's not that much I can do.

I know when I'm being outplayed and I enjoy that too. The problem and the frustration come when you have that feeling there's not that much you could have done.

Yeah, team coordination etc  but when you need two guys to beat one, well, enough said.

[Phantasmo]

AsianJoyKiller, on April 01 2014 - 06:19 PM, said:

Phantasmo, on April 01 2014 - 05:51 PM, said:

Yes, that's right. If the light guy is close to you you simply can't hit him. It's not skill. It's plain math.

You need a new calculator and more math classes.

EDIT: BTW, the difference between a C-Class and A-Class dodge distance is not all that significant. It is only 1 A-Class width longer. Close enough that if you both dodge the same direction and then walk towards each other, you'll scrape sides.

Now add the fact that light mechs can dodge once per second while heavy mechs can only do it twice every three seconds and there you are, effective distance is 1.33 times larger than you said, which was already larger.

Edited by Phantasmo, April 01 2014 - 06:29 PM.

[AsianJoyKiller]

Phantasmo, on April 01 2014 - 06:29 PM, said:

AsianJoyKiller, on April 01 2014 - 06:19 PM, said:

Phantasmo, on April 01 2014 - 05:51 PM, said:

Yes, that's right. If the light guy is close to you you simply can't hit him. It's not skill. It's plain math.

You need a new calculator and more math classes.

EDIT: BTW, the difference between a C-Class and A-Class dodge distance is not all that significant. It is only 1 A-Class width longer. Close enough that if you both dodge the same direction and then walk towards each other, you'll scrape sides.

Now add the fact that light mechs can dodge once per second while heavy mechs can only do it twice every three seconds and there you are, effective distance is 1.33 times larger than you said, which was already larger.

Yeah. Because that isn't an irrelevant and biased presentation at all...

[Phantasmo]

AsianJoyKiller, on April 01 2014 - 06:30 PM, said:

Phantasmo, on April 01 2014 - 06:29 PM, said:

AsianJoyKiller, on April 01 2014 - 06:19 PM, said:

Phantasmo, on April 01 2014 - 05:51 PM, said:

Yes, that's right. If the light guy is close to you you simply can't hit him. It's not skill. It's plain math.

You need a new calculator and more math classes.

EDIT: BTW, the difference between a C-Class and A-Class dodge distance is not all that significant. It is only 1 A-Class width longer. Close enough that if you both dodge the same direction and then walk towards each other, you'll scrape sides.

Now add the fact that light mechs can dodge once per second while heavy mechs can only do it twice every three seconds and there you are, effective distance is 1.33 times larger than you said, which was already larger.

Yeah. Because that isn't an irrelevant and biased presentation at all...

No it is not, it's a plain fact.

Still, you're ignoring the point. The turning caps make fighting light mechs much more difficult than it should
It wouldn't be that big of a problem if I could just use my mouse the right way: move a bit turn a bit, move further, turn faster.

Edited by Phantasmo, April 01 2014 - 06:34 PM.

[EM1O]

Phantasmo, on April 01 2014 - 06:27 PM, said:

Yeah, team coordination etc  but when you need two guys to beat one, well, enough said.

That's why you HAVE team coordination. regardless if it's You getting smacked, or you helping smack an enemy! The idea is for the Other team's guy to get junked.

[AsianJoyKiller]

Phantasmo, on April 01 2014 - 06:31 PM, said:

AsianJoyKiller, on April 01 2014 - 06:30 PM, said:

Phantasmo, on April 01 2014 - 06:29 PM, said:

AsianJoyKiller, on April 01 2014 - 06:19 PM, said:

Phantasmo, on April 01 2014 - 05:51 PM, said:

Yes, that's right. If the light guy is close to you you simply can't hit him. It's not skill. It's plain math.

You need a new calculator and more math classes.

EDIT: BTW, the difference between a C-Class and A-Class dodge distance is not all that significant. It is only 1 A-Class width longer. Close enough that if you both dodge the same direction and then walk towards each other, you'll scrape sides.

Now add the fact that light mechs can dodge once per second while heavy mechs can only do it twice every three seconds and there you are, effective distance is 1.33 times larger than you said, which was already larger.

Yeah. Because that isn't an irrelevant and biased presentation at all...

No it is not, it's a plain fact.

Unless you're having a race by dodging only, or spamming dodges every single moment they come off cooldown like a noob, then it is irrelevant, regardless of whether or not it is a fact.

It's not enough to be a fact.
You need context, and you ignored context in order to present the information in a manner that looks significantly worse than what is actually the case.

And it's actually not fact, unless you plan on standing still after every dodge. If you move even the slightest bit, then that effective distance gets thrown way the **** off. You want to make it seem so cut in dried, but it's not as simple as you'd like to make it out to be.

Hell, when talking about how you can't dodge out of AoE, that means you have to assume your attacker has 100% perfect aim, and won't aim for the spot you are dodging to.

There are so many factors that you choose to ignore just so you could present your information in a favorable light.

Edited by AsianJoyKiller, April 01 2014 - 06:41 PM.

[Silverfire]

You don't need two mechs to take down one A class. I've killed plenty of competent A classes, airborne even, with a C class.

Edited by Silverfire, April 01 2014 - 06:37 PM.

[EM1O]

As I said earlier I'll smack your berz with my flying fat boy VanGeaux!

[Phantasmo]

Silverfire, on April 01 2014 - 06:37 PM, said:

You don't need two mechs to take down one A class. I've killed plenty of competent A classes, airborne even, with a C class.

That was just a comment regarding teamplay. I have killed my share of light guys too. As long as they don't play 100% it's possible.

Problem is when they are so close that the turning caps matter. You just can't turn fast enough to face them, and your dodge distance and frequency doesn't make a problem for light mechs.

Edited by Phantasmo, April 01 2014 - 06:42 PM.

[EM1O]

Shift+S can be your friend
or "Spin, boost, dodge, spin, fire, BOOM"

Edited by EM1O, April 01 2014 - 06:47 PM.