91 replies to this topic

[Phantasmo]

OmegaNull, on April 01 2014 - 08:44 PM, said:

I really don't have a problem <--- Plays both A and C

Also, Phantasmo, you have been playing for barely a month. The fact that you are complaining and vomiting toxic waste all over these forums goes to show too many things about your poor character. If you cannot hit an A class using a C Class and win means you are doing something wrong. Actually, an A class (and this includes myself who is a scout pilot) gets themselves laid to waste on regular basis against someone who has taken the time to learn the Cs. If you cannot aim and land your shots because of poor timing or you have poor positioning does not mean you should take it out here on the forums.

Additionally, if you are having issues with a mech or a class, play that class or mech. You will learn how to play it and also learn how to counter it.


This "need more skills" thing we have been saying is something that comes from playing this game for hundreds of hours and/or have extensive experience with previous FPSes. Even then, a lot of what you learned previous FPSes usually cannot be applied to this game.

If you are getting regularly trashed, then you need to record yourself then watch what you did wrong. Fail, learn, grow.

How do I know_ Because I have won or lost over 2000 matches (1000 of those being DM) and have died over 12000 times. However, I have killed well over 20000 mechs, and I have spent over 400 hours in this game. I know what it takes to be good in a class/mech because I have played all of them.

Talking about poor character, you're making assumptions you can't prove and which are all wrong, starting with:
I was here a year ago, you smartass don't know the difference between forum activation date and first game date.

The rest of the post is your own toxic dump, which I don't really care, except for one point:

What would be the problem if I only had been here for a month_ How do you know you simply haven't grown used to a certain balance (or lack thereof) that is just wrong_

You guys enjoy coming here and saying "all the problem is your lack of skill".
Facts are: A class dominates the game even after the patch.

If you really care about balance and the game (didn't you leave by the way_ coughpoorcharactercough cough) then you would do well trying to explain how the game is balanced and at the same time, dominated by a certain class.

This community is so arrogant and unpleasant.

Edited by Phantasmo, April 02 2014 - 01:04 AM.

[kanamisan]

Phantasmo, on April 02 2014 - 01:01 AM, said:

OmegaNull, on April 01 2014 - 08:44 PM, said:

I really don't have a problem <--- Plays both A and C

Also, Phantasmo, you have been playing for barely a month. The fact that you are complaining and vomiting toxic waste all over these forums goes to show too many things about your poor character. If you cannot hit an A class using a C Class and win means you are doing something wrong. Actually, an A class (and this includes myself who is a scout pilot) gets themselves laid to waste on regular basis against someone who has taken the time to learn the Cs. If you cannot aim and land your shots because of poor timing or you have poor positioning does not mean you should take it out here on the forums.

Additionally, if you are having issues with a mech or a class, play that class or mech. You will learn how to play it and also learn how to counter it.


This "need more skills" thing we have been saying is something that comes from playing this game for hundreds of hours and/or have extensive experience with previous FPSes. Even then, a lot of what you learned previous FPSes usually cannot be applied to this game.

If you are getting regularly trashed, then you need to record yourself then watch what you did wrong. Fail, learn, grow.

How do I know_ Because I have won or lost over 2000 matches (1000 of those being DM) and have died over 12000 times. However, I have killed well over 20000 mechs, and I have spent over 400 hours in this game. I know what it takes to be good in a class/mech because I have played all of them.

Talking about poor character, you're making assumptions you can't prove and which are all wrong, starting with:
I was here a year ago, you smartass don't know the difference between forum activation date and first game date.

The rest of the post is your own toxic dump, which I don't really care, except for one point:

What would be the problem if I only had been here for a month_ How do you know you simply haven't grown used to a certain balance (or lack thereof) that is just wrong_

You guys enjoy coming here and saying "all the problem is your lack of skill".
Facts are: A class dominates the game even after the patch.

If you really care about balance and the game (didn't you leave by the way_ coughpoorcharactercough cough) then you would do well trying to explain how the game is balanced and at the same time, dominated by a certain class.

This community is so arrogant and unpleasant.

You just said the problem you have right here. "How do you know you simply haven't grown used to a certain balance " now that it is changed, your lashing out on it. just because you dont like the way something has become does not make it wrong or bad. and its a childish thing to pout about things you dont like, that said many adults still have not learned that and its most evident in politices. anyway. its your choice if you want to pout or grow up and learn, I am sure many of these people would help you if you asked them. just calm down and think about it for a moment, dont worry about whos right or whos wrong, because that never matters.

[Duralumi]

The heavier the mech, the more important positioning is.

Heavier mechs can take further advantage of positioning due to their increased HP.
Lighter mechs need to use their mobility to try and mold the fight in their favour.

A good A-class is hard to hit.
A good C-class is near-impossible to dislodge if they position themselves well.

A C-class that is caught out of position is punished hard.
An A-class that is hit is punished hard.

The only Mech that can fuzzy bunny on C-classes with low resistance is the Reaper. And even then Hawkins Brawler gives it a run for it's money.

Different requirements.

If you are having issues hitting A-classes, then that is your problem.

Edited by Duralumi, April 02 2014 - 03:22 AM.

[FanSiuWong]

Incinerator is incredible against any A class.

And yea, picking your fights wisely (when and where to fight), adapting to the mech you sit in is part of the skill required for a successful pilot. I am glad that not everyone can jump into any mech and fight every other mech head on whenever he pleases, if that is what you are aiming for, that would be super boring. Hawken is a team game. If you want a clean 1 on 1 fight, this won't ever happen unless you jump into an emtpy server with a friend and both of you pick the exact same mech and loadout.

[Phantasmo]

FanSiuWong, on April 02 2014 - 03:44 AM, said:

And yea, picking your fights wisely (when and where to fight),

This is something the slow mech just can't do.
If you pick the perfect position, any half decent player will just ignore you, period.

Positioning is a fallacy. Even if there was a perfect spot, you can either be left alone and outnumbered or simply ignored.

Speed and mobility are much better assets.

From the dawn of times, the fastest guy is the guy who decides the place and moment.
This should be obvious to anybody, yet somehow the Hawken community fails to see it.


Playing heavy mechs reminds me of playing Predator: you need the enemy's help to succeed.
If the other guy knows his game, he'll either ambush you from behind or simply ignore you and run away.

[OmegaNull]

Dude, you can. How do I know_ BECAUSE I fuzzy bunny PLAY AND EAT PEOPLE WITH IT! Get your toxic fuzzy bunny off the forums. I an tired of see your complete whiny BS.

How do you position_ Pay attention to radar. Watch were your team is, find someplace with cover. Watch radar and be aware. Land your shots and dodge as needed.

I have taken on 3 poeple at once and prevailed with a brawller with good positioning. Additionally, I have maintained the AA on origin pretty single handed before as well for an entire team in a Brawler with a scout by my side.

Edited by OmegaNull, April 02 2014 - 04:25 AM.

[AsianJoyKiller]

Phantasmo, on April 02 2014 - 03:53 AM, said:

This is something the slow mech just can't do.
If you pick the perfect position, any half decent player will just ignore you, period.

If you're in the perfect position, then you can't be ignored.
If you can be ignored, you're not in the perfect position.

Quote

Positioning is a fallacy. Even if there was a perfect spot, you can either be left alone and outnumbered or simply ignored.

I don't think you understand what "perfect" means...
Besides, positioning is not a fallacy. If it were, then you could stand out in the open and never have to worry.
Obviously that's not true.

The only fallacy going on here is your false dichotomy perspective, where you believe if you can't do it, then it's not possible.

Quote

Speed and mobility are much better assets.

Under certain circumstances.

Quote

From the dawn of times, the fastest guy is the guy who decides the place and moment.

Unless the fat guy knows how to move, or has positioned himself in a place where he can't be ignored and is always ready.

Quote

This should be obvious to anybody, yet somehow the Hawken community fails to see it.

It's not obvious and we don't see it because it's absolutely not logical and plenty of the more experienced C-Class players prove you wrong on a regular basis.

If what you said was true, then we simply would not be able to do what we do, as well as we do it.
But we can and do so on a regular basis.

Explain that.
Explain how we can do things that you say are impossible.

Quote

Playing heavy mechs reminds me of playing Predator: you need the enemy's help to succeed.
If the other guy knows his game, he'll either ambush you from behind or simply ignore you and run away.

Nope.
That's a description of what happens if you don't know what you're doing.

Edited by AsianJoyKiller, April 02 2014 - 04:32 AM.

[redslion]

From my limited experience:

How you do with a Brawler depends on match balance.

If your team can hold its own against the enemy team, a Brawler can make a difference thanks to its prowess. If someone is watching your back, you can fight safely and do brutal killstreaks.

If your team is stomping the enemy team, you won't even reach the fight before it's over, and you'll end at the bottom of the scoreboard.

If the enemy team is stomping your team, you'll end up forced into cover while your mates poke the enemy horde with AR, doing nothing. In this situation, you are useless. You can also try and flank the enemy, but you'll usually end overrun, while your teammates keep hiding. Either way, you'll get stomped.


Brawler is one of the most vulnerable mech when it comes to flanking it: if you are outnumbered, you'll die. You can't carry the team, but you can sto the enemy from doing so aswell (well placed TOW = Enemy scout is so low you can finish it off with Flak while it's running away)

Edited by redslion, April 02 2014 - 04:54 AM.

[Panzer1972]

The main Problem

1) Light mechs carry the same heavy weapons as heavy mechs,  
2) Light mechs are smaller yet somehow the manage to carry the same amount of internals and items.

Think about it

[OmegaNull]

Not really a problem.

Land your shots with well aimed, well timed hits. A will go down like a fly.

Also, I agree with AJK. He can be rather objective and biased a number of things, however, he has been playing this game for a LONG time. Far longer than I have.

Edited by OmegaNull, April 02 2014 - 05:11 AM.

[SoldierHobbes11]

Phantasmo, on April 02 2014 - 01:01 AM, said:

What would be the problem if I only had been here for a month_ How do you know you simply haven't grown used to a certain balance (or lack thereof) that is just wrong_

In general with any game, it does take a while for you to get used to any kind of game. I never really got the hang of Hawken, personally, until about the 100 hour mark. Experience is just something that can't be taught. Now I'm not saying that all new players are bad at the game. I'm just saying don't be so hasty to judge something with only a little bit of experience. If you really love the game, then you'd have the patience like some of the vetterans of the game to try and overcome the issues. There really isn't too much of a right or wrong in this. It's more so just one opinion versus another. Same thing when it comes to talks of balance. There really is not true "perfect" balance, it's just the balance that everyone (or more like the majority in most cases) agrees upon.

Quote

You guys enjoy coming here and saying "all the problem is your lack of skill".
Facts are: A class dominates the game even after the patch.

Can't speak for the rest of the guys, but when I read your post, I just saw a fellow player who's hit a bit of a roadblock. Frustrations are normal when playing a game (war games, especially). Essentially what most of them are trying to tell you is that you should practice more. Eventually, you'll get so used to fighting A-classes in your C, you can drop them like flies, but you currently don't seem to have the patience to do so. And yeah, A classes seem more dominant, but that's only because people in general aren't used to seeing such a mobile enemy in a shooting game before. Same thing happens in TF2. You come accross one of those Pro Scouts and you can't put a finger on them, and it's frustrating. However, they didn't get like that overnight. I can play scout in TF2, and I realized just how hard it was for them to be damn near untouchable. Every person can play every class, but not every person can play it to their full potential.

As I said before, Patience young Jedi. Getting frustrated and angry only makes you do rash things, and in Hawken (and life in general) that makes you perform far bellow the best of your ability.

[redslion]

C classes however are less self-reliant, thus they are harder to play effectively than A classes.

And worst of all, you need different abilities to be good in an A class compared to a C class. That means you kinda have to re-learn the game when you switch, and change your habits.

[Madman01]

just found out I can kill a scout in 4-5 hits and that the closer they are the easier it is to airburst a nade in their faces, you thing C class cant go 1v1 with A classes, I look forward to proving you wrong

[Phantasmo]

SoldierHobbes11, on April 02 2014 - 09:28 AM, said:

Can't speak for the rest of the guys, but when I read your post, I just saw a fellow player who's hit a bit of a roadblock. Frustrations are normal when playing a game (war games, especially).

This is the funny thing about the whole thread.
There's always a bad game every now and then, but I normally do fine. It's not a rare thing for me to end up as MVP or just under that.
I don't need help and I'm not asking for help.

I just think the game has a problem with balance between certain mechs. For the most part the game is OK but there are some issues.

So much talking but the main problem, which was turning caps, has not been proved wrong.

The way the game caps the turning rate is beyond stupid, it's completely retarded. If you think that, for some reason (...) the turning rate must be capped then do it but the problem is the game does not just cap the turning rate. It actually reduces the turning speed if you move your mouse faster than a certain threshold.

So when you must turn a wide arc, you end up turning slowlier than you should because of the stupid cap implementation.
And this hurts most specially when fighting mechs that move very fast.

This was the main point but this arrogant players won't get off their high horses and admit that noobs can also be right.
Whatever.

No matter how much you talk about practice and skill, facts are out there: Turn caps exist and they are not properly implemented AND fast, mobile mechs tend to dominate the game.

[AsianJoyKiller]

Phantasmo, on April 02 2014 - 02:25 PM, said:

I posed a question to you earlier, and I would like an answer:
It's not obvious and we don't see it because it's absolutely not logical and plenty of the more experienced C-Class players prove you wrong on a regular basis.

If what you said was true, then we simply would not be able to do what we do, as well as we do it.
But we can and do so on a regular basis.

Explain that.
Explain how we can do things that you say are impossible.

[SoldierHobbes11]

Phantasmo, on April 02 2014 - 02:25 PM, said:

SoldierHobbes11, on April 02 2014 - 09:28 AM, said:

Can't speak for the rest of the guys, but when I read your post, I just saw a fellow player who's hit a bit of a roadblock. Frustrations are normal when playing a game (war games, especially).

This is the funny thing about the whole thread.
There's always a bad game every now and then, but I normally do fine. It's not a rare thing for me to end up as MVP or just under that.
I don't need help and I'm not asking for help.

I just think the game has a problem with balance between certain mechs. For the most part the game is OK but there are some issues.

So much talking but the main problem, which was turning caps, has not been proved wrong.

The way the game caps the turning rate is beyond stupid, it's completely retarded. If you think that, for some reason (...) the turning rate must be capped then do it but the problem is the game does not just cap the turning rate. It actually reduces the turning speed if you move your mouse faster than a certain threshold.

So when you must turn a wide arc, you end up turning slowlier than you should because of the stupid cap implementation.
And this hurts most specially when fighting mechs that move very fast.

This was the main point but this arrogant players won't get off their high horses and admit that noobs can also be right.
Whatever.

No matter how much you talk about practice and skill, facts are out there: Turn caps exist and they are not properly implemented AND fast, mobile mechs tend to dominate the game.

Shift+S. Takes practice to use but once you get the hang of it, you can use it to quickly turn to a light mech constantly getting behind you. Do this in place of whipping the mouse to the side.

And the reason why the turn cap is in place is turreted heavies. If there were no turning caps, good luck hitting the back end of a turret heavy. Turtle Vanguards are annoying enough as it is, but can you imagine how stupidly overpowered a turreted Vanguard would be without the turn caps_ The C-classes were supposed to have trouble with the light classes at point blank range, otherwise going toe to toe with a flak brawler would be suicide. I'm not saying the system is perfect, but completely removing something that is a MAIN aspect of the game meta the devs created would have more drastic effects than what you're pushing for. If anything, it would probably imbalance things in the exact oposite direction.

Also, do you use the turret mode a lot when playing a C class_ Turning cap is much more severe in the turret mode. Outside of turret mode, it's not that bad.

Edited by SoldierHobbes11, April 02 2014 - 09:25 PM.

[Mykinius]

Ick. This thread is full of broken English and unsubstantiated claims of "facts," "fallacies," and "statistics." An argument along the lines of "it's just plain simple" or "it's common sense" doesn't work on complex topics like Hawken's movement/hp balance, just like how there are no easy or intuitive solutions for gun violence or healthcare.

I maintain that for players of similar skill levels, the weight classes are mostly balanced. A good A-class pilot will wreck less skilled players by dancing around the battlefield just like a good C-class pilot will dominate the game by being in the right place at the right time. It's a shame that light mechs are more popular at the moment, but it's because feeling mobile is more fun than feeling tanky, not because they're mechanically better and lead to a higher success rate.

[kanamisan]

Mykinius, on April 02 2014 - 10:49 PM, said:

Ick. This thread is full of broken English and unsubstantiated claims of "facts," "fallacies," and "statistics." An argument along the lines of "it's just plain simple" or "it's common sense" doesn't work on complex topics like Hawken's movement/hp balance, just like how there are no easy or intuitive solutions for gun violence or healthcare.

I maintain that for players of similar skill levels, the weight classes are mostly balanced. A good A-class pilot will wreck less skilled players by dancing around the battlefield just like a good C-class pilot will dominate the game by being in the right place at the right time. It's a shame that light mechs are more popular at the moment, but it's because feeling mobile is more fun than feeling tanky, not because they're mechanically better and lead to a higher success rate.

I challaged myself today and everyday to play at least a match (full match and full effort) using a class C mech. mostly because up until now I have only worked on class a mechs. (only one I am missing after about 20hours is the zerker at a class) the other day I bought a brawler. today I tried it out on a tdm (which showed me how hard c class mechs have it when they dont have a good team backing them up) and then thought it would be a good idea to try a missle assult and camp a silo with it. amazingly its very good at its listed roll of defence. anyway, while I normaly love light mechs and will forever enjoy my tech to death. I have found so much love with the brawler and it really has helped me realise just how strong a c class mech can be, at the right place and the right time. I am also very tempted to get the incinerater next.
anyway, I just think that having a mix of mechs can be quite good on your overall enjoyment and it might even make me a better player.

[Mykinius]

kanamisan, on April 03 2014 - 02:36 AM, said:

Mykinius, on April 02 2014 - 10:49 PM, said:

Ick. This thread is full of broken English and unsubstantiated claims of "facts," "fallacies," and "statistics." An argument along the lines of "it's just plain simple" or "it's common sense" doesn't work on complex topics like Hawken's movement/hp balance, just like how there are no easy or intuitive solutions for gun violence or healthcare.

I maintain that for players of similar skill levels, the weight classes are mostly balanced. A good A-class pilot will wreck less skilled players by dancing around the battlefield just like a good C-class pilot will dominate the game by being in the right place at the right time. It's a shame that light mechs are more popular at the moment, but it's because feeling mobile is more fun than feeling tanky, not because they're mechanically better and lead to a higher success rate.

I challaged myself today and everyday to play at least a match (full match and full effort) using a class C mech. mostly because up until now I have only worked on class a mechs. (only one I am missing after about 20hours is the zerker at a class) the other day I bought a brawler. today I tried it out on a tdm (which showed me how hard c class mechs have it when they dont have a good team backing them up) and then thought it would be a good idea to try a missle assult and camp a silo with it. amazingly its very good at its listed roll of defence. anyway, while I normaly love light mechs and will forever enjoy my tech to death. I have found so much love with the brawler and it really has helped me realise just how strong a c class mech can be, at the right place and the right time. I am also very tempted to get the incinerater next.
anyway, I just think that having a mix of mechs can be quite good on your overall enjoyment and it might even make me a better player.

And to think that the Brawler is (probably) the worst heavy mech, to boot! As you noticed, heavies tend to be better at "defense" jobs, indicating that they wouldn't be good in TDM because there are no objectives to take/defend. However, I would argue that as a C-class mech it is your prerogative to try to make those defense situations: assuming making easy ambushes with the use of the radar isn't an option, heavies in TDM are most effective when they hunker down. They thrive in TDM if/when they remember not to play too agressively (and therefore keep form overextending) and find a way to lure the enemy team into disadvantageous positions.

I too am going to get an incinerator next due to its unique playstyle and distinct types of skill required (situational awareness and heat management rather than twitch shooting).

[kanamisan]

Mykinius, on April 03 2014 - 08:00 AM, said:

kanamisan, on April 03 2014 - 02:36 AM, said:

Mykinius, on April 02 2014 - 10:49 PM, said:

Ick. This thread is full of broken English and unsubstantiated claims of "facts," "fallacies," and "statistics." An argument along the lines of "it's just plain simple" or "it's common sense" doesn't work on complex topics like Hawken's movement/hp balance, just like how there are no easy or intuitive solutions for gun violence or healthcare.

I maintain that for players of similar skill levels, the weight classes are mostly balanced. A good A-class pilot will wreck less skilled players by dancing around the battlefield just like a good C-class pilot will dominate the game by being in the right place at the right time. It's a shame that light mechs are more popular at the moment, but it's because feeling mobile is more fun than feeling tanky, not because they're mechanically better and lead to a higher success rate.

I challaged myself today and everyday to play at least a match (full match and full effort) using a class C mech. mostly because up until now I have only worked on class a mechs. (only one I am missing after about 20hours is the zerker at a class) the other day I bought a brawler. today I tried it out on a tdm (which showed me how hard c class mechs have it when they dont have a good team backing them up) and then thought it would be a good idea to try a missle assult and camp a silo with it. amazingly its very good at its listed roll of defence. anyway, while I normaly love light mechs and will forever enjoy my tech to death. I have found so much love with the brawler and it really has helped me realise just how strong a c class mech can be, at the right place and the right time. I am also very tempted to get the incinerater next.
anyway, I just think that having a mix of mechs can be quite good on your overall enjoyment and it might even make me a better player.

And to think that the Brawler is (probably) the worst heavy mech, to boot! As you noticed, heavies tend to be better at "defense" jobs, indicating that they wouldn't be good in TDM because there are no objectives to take/defend. However, I would argue that as a C-class mech it is your prerogative to try to make those defense situations: assuming making easy ambushes with the use of the radar isn't an option, heavies in TDM are most effective when they hunker down. They thrive in TDM if/when they remember not to play too agressively (and therefore keep form overextending) and find a way to lure the enemy team into disadvantageous positions.

I too am going to get an incinerator next due to its unique playstyle and distinct types of skill required (situational awareness and heat management rather than twitch shooting).

Ironcily my challange has helped me in places I did not expect, had a major win as a scout using the miniflak, and the extra defensive practice with the brawler helped me land my tow missles much more smoothly. also the brawler is so tanky that with just a bit of effort put into dodging, you can just punch thigns until they die, so I really like it. from what I have seen, the incinerater is basicly a vanguard that has a bit more speed and so much fire. and despite what people have said, badmouthing it, I am sure its going to be better then what people have said. also, that feelign when you hit a airborn target with a tow, or a mech halfway across the map. and I still have not gone to sleep, which I think is catching up to me.