91 replies to this topic

[Silverfire]

Your dodge distance and frequency versus A classes doesn't make any problems for those A classes, you're right, because it's not theirs.  It's yours.  And it actually does help because it does this thing called creating distance between you and your foe so that you can get a better shot. Even if they're still in in-your-face distance, you now have your reticle on them, meaning you can shoot back, meaning you have the chance at winning! Wow so hard.

[Phantasmo]

AsianJoyKiller, on April 01 2014 - 06:37 PM, said:

There are so many factors that you choose to ignore just so you could present your information in a favorable light.

I don't think so. Facts are:
* it's the fast guy who decides whether or not there will be combat
* turning caps are more of a problem for C mechs than for A mechs since the heavies move a smaller distance and less often, which means they are an easy target
* the larger hit box and low overall speed make them an even easier target. Ordnance AoE will frequently damage a heavy mech.

All these are objective points, there's not that much to debate about them.

[Phantasmo]

Silverfire, on April 01 2014 - 06:48 PM, said:

Your dodge distance and frequency versus A classes doesn't make any problems for those A classes, you're right, because it's not theirs.  It's yours.  And it actually does help because it does this thing called creating distance between you and your foe so that you can get a better shot. Even if they're still in in-your-face distance, you now have your reticle on them, meaning you can shoot back, meaning you have the chance at winning! Wow so hard.

Still talking about the slow mech creating distance against the fast mech huh_

[Silverfire]

Phantasmo, on April 01 2014 - 06:51 PM, said:

Silverfire, on April 01 2014 - 06:48 PM, said:

Your dodge distance and frequency versus A classes doesn't make any problems for those A classes, you're right, because it's not theirs.  It's yours.  And it actually does help because it does this thing called creating distance between you and your foe so that you can get a better shot. Even if they're still in in-your-face distance, you now have your reticle on them, meaning you can shoot back, meaning you have the chance at winning! Wow so hard.

Still talking about the slow mech creating distance against the fast mech huh_

Yes, because it's viable.

[AsianJoyKiller]

Phantasmo, on April 01 2014 - 06:50 PM, said:

AsianJoyKiller, on April 01 2014 - 06:37 PM, said:

There are so many factors that you choose to ignore just so you could present your information in a favorable light.

I don't think so. Facts are:
* it's the fast guy who decides whether or not there will be combat

Really_ The sheer number of A-Classes I've ambused in a Brawler would disagree with that.
Depends on the pilot, the circumstances and all sorts of factors in deciding who forces a fight.

So this is subjective, not objective.

Quote

* turning caps are more of a problem for C mechs than for A mechs since the heavies move a smaller distance and less often, which means they are an easy target

Again, subjective.
It depends on your positioning, aim and movement (aka, the pilot).

Quote

* the larger hit box and low overall speed make them an even easier target. Ordnance AoE will frequently damage a heavy mech.

This is the only objective point you have, and you haven't even provided any statistics that show how much more at risk C-Classes are than A-Classes, nor have you done a comparison of how those risks match up with the risks of having significantly lower health.

[Phantasmo]

AsianJoyKiller, on April 01 2014 - 07:05 PM, said:

and you haven't even provided any statistics that show how much more at risk C-Classes are than A-Classes, nor have you done a comparison of how those risks match up with the risks of having significantly lower health.

Neither have you, other than  "sheer number".

People in this forum keep falling in the same fallacy: I'm doing fine therefore there aren't any problems.
Wake up guys, you're a 1% of the player base (do you need statistics for that too_)

Just think how many times you veterans said "game is balanced", then came the patch, the bugs were fixed and you AJK now think the game is better than it was before.

The game is now better and it will be better the day the dev's realize the current classes design is absurd.

Heavy mechs should not just be much more stronger, they should also carry more/bigger guns.
Turning caps should be fixed (or just removed, that would be better).

[Silverfire]

Derp so hard it hurts sometimes

Edited by Silverfire, April 01 2014 - 07:42 PM.

[Phantasmo]

Silverfire, on April 01 2014 - 07:17 PM, said:

Phantasmo, on April 01 2014 - 07:13 PM, said:

Turning caps should be fixed (or just removed, that would be better).

Yes, make the game more generic than it has already become.  That'll definitely make the game more attractive.

/sarcasm

I can't see how fixing turning caps would make the game more generic. Mouse not working properly is not a trait, it's a mistake, a design flaw.
But you are using a controller, I don't think you even know what I'm talking about.

[Silverfire]

The turn rate cap is intentional, not a mistake, nor is it a design flaw.  How exactly is it a design flaw_  The turn rate cap is supposed to help simulate the feeling of being in a mech. It's an immersion feature.

Phantasmo, on April 01 2014 - 07:13 PM, said:

AsianJoyKiller, on April 01 2014 - 07:05 PM, said:

and you haven't even provided any statistics that show how much more at risk C-Classes are than A-Classes, nor have you done a comparison of how those risks match up with the risks of having significantly lower health.

Neither have you, other than  "sheer number".

The only difference is that it's your claim, not AJK's.  That means you have to provide the evidence to back up your argument.  That's your job, not AJK's, not mine, it's yours.

Phantasmo, on April 01 2014 - 07:20 PM, said:

But you are using a controller

See picture for refutation.

Attached Files

•  P1010980.JPG   346.06K   47 downloads

Edited by Silverfire, April 01 2014 - 07:31 PM.

[AsianJoyKiller]

Phantasmo, on April 01 2014 - 07:13 PM, said:

Neither have you, other than  "sheer number".

Because you're the one making the claims. It's your job to provide the evidence to back your arguments.

Quote

People in this forum keep falling in the same fallacy: I'm doing fine therefore there aren't any problems.
Wake up guys, you're a 1% of the player base (do you need statistics for that too_)

So you're going to complain about fallacies and in the same statement start strawmanning_ Flawless logic right there.

Quote

Just think how many times you veterans said "game is balanced", then came the patch, the bugs were fixed and you AJK now think the game is better than it was before.

This sentence makes no sense.
Please rephrase or rewrite it.

Quote

The game is now better and it will be better the day the dev's realize the current classes design is absurd.

Quote

Heavy mechs should not just be much more stronger, they should also carry more/bigger guns.

The differences are, and always have been Health vs. Mobility.
Just because they're not quite right, that does not mean you need to add a new element into the mix, which actual makes balancing things more complex. It's much simpler to tweak the existing balance rather than adding in an entire new element that would need balancing.

As far as removing the turn cap, I'm all for it.
But I believe that simply removing it will be bad for the game.
Large adjustments to health and mobility would need to be made. Health values would need to go up. Speeds would probably need to be increased, but more importantly the entire movement system would need to be smoothed out and improved. The glitchy-clunkiness of the current movement system would make everything absurdly easy to target if there was no turn cap.

So removing the turn cap is not some simple fix that improve everything. Without a lot of balancing, it could easily destroy the entire flow of the game.

[AsianJoyKiller]

Silverfire, on April 01 2014 - 07:30 PM, said:

The turn rate cap is intentional, not a mistake, nor is it a design flaw.  How exactly is it a design flaw_  The turn rate cap is supposed to help simulate the feeling of being in a mech. It's an immersion feature.

It's flawed in that for all intents and purposes it works extremely similarly to negative mouse acceleration, and in general feels bad (this is evidenced by how often it is mistake for negative mouse accel).

It is also flawed in how there is no indication of a turn speed cap, and even when there was, it wasn't at all clear.
If you have a turn cap, you need to have it clearly indicated.

[Phantasmo]

@Silver: I told you you didn't know what was I talking about and I was right.
I'm tired,  I'll explain again tomorrow.

Edited by Phantasmo, April 01 2014 - 07:41 PM.

[Simp]

It's generally accepted that mobility is better than armor as a defensive measure in hawken. When a C class player does well, it's either because they take advantage of tactical positioning and get the jump on a light or because they've got 133t XxMLGxX Skeelz.

[Silverfire]

Phantasmo, if you're referring to this post:

Silverfire, on April 01 2014 - 07:17 PM, said:

Phantasmo, on April 01 2014 - 07:13 PM, said:

Turning caps should be fixed (or just removed, that would be better).

Yes, make the game more generic than it has already become.  That'll definitely make the game more attractive.

/sarcasm

Disregard it please, had a derp moment or something.

[Trych]

Never have had significant problems taking down A's with a Brawler or Rocketeer (the only C's I use).

Just saying.

[SoldierHobbes11]

Try to keep a wall between you and an A class. If they try to cross it, punish them with your weapons. And if they do manage to cross the wall and get behind you, just switch sides and deny him acess to your side. Most people expect their targets to retreat backward when rushed, not dash forward. If you know how to effectively play peek-a-boo, turning rate shouldn't be an issue. Especially in a brawler which is basically a fat scout. Never rely on your armor to save you in Hawken. Rely more on tactics and positioning. Mind games also help once you get the basics of combat down. Don't let the light mech hop all around you in the first place. The only time I've lost 1v1 against an A in one of my Cs was when they got me off guard.

[EM1O]

Phantasmo, on April 01 2014 - 07:13 PM, said:

Wake up guys, you're a 1% of the player base (do you need statistics for that too_)

yes. and not outa yer butt like a lot of this has come.
the only valuable and rewarding discussion on this thread has resulted from posts by other players on subjects related to this thread. you have only burbled and bubbled pure-d-shitzz. and sadly, you're OP. go away.

Edited by EM1O, April 01 2014 - 08:38 PM.

[OmegaNull]

I really don't have a problem <--- Plays both A and C

Also, Phantasmo, you have been playing for barely a month. The fact that you are complaining and vomiting toxic waste all over these forums goes to show too many things about your poor character. If you cannot hit an A class using a C Class and win means you are doing something wrong. Actually, an A class (and this includes myself who is a scout pilot) gets themselves laid to waste on regular basis against someone who has taken the time to learn the Cs. If you cannot aim and land your shots because of poor timing or you have poor positioning does not mean you should take it out here on the forums.

Additionally, if you are having issues with a mech or a class, play that class or mech. You will learn how to play it and also learn how to counter it.


This "need more skills" thing we have been saying is something that comes from playing this game for hundreds of hours and/or have extensive experience with previous FPSes. Even then, a lot of what you learned previous FPSes usually cannot be applied to this game.

If you are getting regularly trashed, then you need to record yourself then watch what you did wrong. Fail, learn, grow.

How do I know_ Because I have won or lost over 2000 matches (1000 of those being DM) and have died over 12000 times. However, I have killed well over 20000 mechs, and I have spent over 400 hours in this game. I know what it takes to be good in a class/mech because I have played all of them.

Edited by OmegaNull, April 01 2014 - 09:02 PM.

[Crocket101]

Sure, A-Classes are smaller, faster and their hitboxes from personal experience are kinda wonky (high ping_) but where there's a will, there's a way especially if those A-Class mech do something terribly wrong, like going straight into 2 TOW rockets, a super damaging grenade combo from a grenadier, hitscan weapons, keeping distance... Just gotta improvise.

[SoldierHobbes11]

OmegaNull, on April 01 2014 - 08:44 PM, said:

Also, Phantasmo, you have been playing for barely a month. The fact that you are complaining and vomiting toxic waste all over these forums goes to show too many things about your poor character. If you cannot hit an A class using a C Class and win means you are doing something wrong. Actually, an A class (and this includes myself who is a scout pilot) gets themselves laid to waste on regular basis against someone who has taken the time to learn the Cs. If you cannot aim and land your shots because of poor timing or you have poor positioning does not mean you should take it out here on the forums.

Additionally, if you are having issues with a mech or a class, play that class or mech. You will learn how to play it and also learn how to counter it.


This "need more skills" thing we have been saying is something that comes from playing this game for hundreds of hours and/or have extensive experience with previous FPSes. Even then, a lot of what you learned previous FPSes usually cannot be applied to this game.

If you are getting regularly trashed, then you need to record yourself then watch what you did wrong. Fail, learn, grow.

The man is right, Phantasmo. Give it time. With enough practice and patience you'll eventually get better. And Instead if trying to disregard and degrade all the advice you're being given, try listening. And remember, it's just a game. No use losing your hair over it.

Patience young Jedi. Down this dark path, you must stop walking.