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The AM-SAR: Change, Keep or Delete

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Poll: The AM-SAR: Change, Keep or Delete (52 member(s) have cast votes)

What do you, the Hawken community, feel should be done with the AM-SAR_

  1. Change the weapon via one of the options discussed bellow. (36 votes [69.23%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 69.23%

  2. Leave the weapon the way it is. (15 votes [28.85%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 28.85%

  3. Remove the weapon from Hawken, entirely. (1 votes [1.92%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 1.92%

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#41 CounterlogicMan

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Posted August 04 2014 - 10:37 AM

It is actually a pretty good gun if you can land majority of your shots, just like any other hit scan in Hawken. In fact on many maps I prefer AM-SAR over slug rifle simply because it performs better than the RPR at mid range and applies decent burst and decent dps at mid range and close range. Also if I remember correctly it does not suffer as much damage reduction from being unscoped as the slug rifle. On top of this it benefits greatly from using the ability of the reaper.

It is pretty difficult to use when considering the firing animation dispenses a smoke cloud all over your face and the learning curve associated with balancing between clicking madly with single shots. The accuracy penalty on snipers when unscoped also adds to the difficulty of the AM-SAR due to the added RNG aspect of unscoped cqc battles. But that is the life of a sniper in cqc, you can't have it all.

If I would change the reaper balance before some other things in Hawken, which I wouldn't. I would  see the refire rate lowered slightly, time before it will allow you to fire again, or a slight damage buff. Just to make up for the difficulty of use and to solidify its position in the middle ground between SA hawkens/RPR and the slug.

#42 ThatDamnedBoedy

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Posted August 22 2014 - 08:24 PM

View PostRydiak, on May 19 2014 - 07:09 AM, said:

View PostTerr_, on May 19 2014 - 12:28 AM, said:

Change the control scheme:
  • Holding down the fire-key will cause it to repeatedly shoot...
  • ... at a rate that is only about 80% what you can get by tapping manually.
Benefits:
  • Ends most of the player-interface frustration
  • Does not significantly alter the balance of the gun
  • Players who like the tapping can keep on doing it
Pointless. I have a macro on my mouse that already does this without any loss of performance, let alone 20%.

No its a good idea.  macros ought to be something that is banned.  Its like botting but petty botting.  Only lazy criminal minded people do it.

#43 IronClamp

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Posted August 24 2014 - 10:34 AM

View PostThatDamnedBoedy, on August 22 2014 - 08:24 PM, said:

Only lazy criminal minded people do it.

Lazy - yes.
Criminal minded - no.

I actually wanted to find a way to macro an Emergency-"FIRE EVERYTHING" key. In theory would launch an item, activate ability, and fire both weapons (primary would burst). Gave it up though....

"Or maybe we'll just have to go through you"


#44 Cloudstorm

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Posted August 24 2014 - 06:55 PM

Brilliant weapon in the  right hands especially in low ping environment. You just have pick the range and manage the fire rate manually.

#45 Amidatelion

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Posted August 24 2014 - 10:27 PM

View PostThatDamnedBoedy, on August 22 2014 - 08:24 PM, said:

macros ought to be something that is banned.  Its like botting but petty botting.

View PostThatDamnedBoedy, on August 22 2014 - 08:24 PM, said:

macros ought to be something that is banned.


View PostThatDamnedBoedy, on August 22 2014 - 08:24 PM, said:

Its like botting but petty botting.

I... I just... what_

What_

There are approximately 1,025,100 words in the English language and I can't arrange them in a manner that adequately explains how you are wrong because I can't get over my initial stupefaction at how wrong these statements are.

#46 craftydus

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Posted August 25 2014 - 07:02 AM

If you think you must use scripting macros to make a semi auto gun fully automatic, it's not the gun for you.
It's purpose in being semi auto is to balance it's strengths. It functions as intended.
You aren't fixing anything. You are breaking the simple mechanic that in fact distinguishes it from other weapon options.
If you need to use a macro or a script to be a competent am-sar user, then In my estimation, you are not competent.
To do so is taking the low road. This is a practice wherein you accept you are incapable to compete with players who are willing to learn to use it as it was designed, and find it necessary to insert advantages dismissive of FairPlay and ethical sportsmanship.

It's important to me that I can respect a good am-sar user when I encounter one.
Whether or not they are naturally effective, through the pains of practice, or cheezing with macros and scripts, weighs heavily toward the esteem in which I regard them.
Please note I am making a great effort at restraining my words here from being littered with copious amounts of derision and profanity.
I hope I have made my opinions on this plainly clear, and I am perfectly understood.

#47 WastingTime

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Posted August 25 2014 - 07:56 AM

I did like the am-sar but switched away from it due to the click fest.  Hadn't considered tagging it to the scroll wheel

#48 MechFighter5e3bf9

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Posted August 30 2014 - 06:57 AM

the weapon is a bit more difficult than the hawkins and so it has a boost  for using it in the form of damage and accuracy_ i love this on the reaper and sometimes on my ss, you put the hand on the mouse floaty and just go wild when you find a target, click click click so madly but stay on center mass much as you can and you will dish out massive dps fast much more accurately than hawkins, also doubles as mid/close range weapon effectivelywhen noscoping. i think its underrated as every time i need it it tears em up (on bunker when they got hellfires and snipes)
i don't mean any of it

#49 MechFighter5e3bf9

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Posted August 30 2014 - 07:00 AM

View PostClimatic, on June 11 2014 - 06:09 AM, said:

I agree with skrill, get rid of the smoke when firing then it is a total viable and even prefered weapon for the reaper. The fact that it's a sustain weapon, it means the smoke will constantly be there when firing. Zooming in just making the muzzle flash cover that much more of the screen.
i dsunno once i start engaging with the weapon i dont notice smoke flashes or other mechs poking me im locked on target
i don't mean any of it

#50 USSIowa

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Posted September 05 2014 - 06:43 AM

To be honest, I think the AM-SAR is fine as it is. The high accuracy of the weapon, along with its moderate rate of fire and moderate damage per shot allow it to function quite well at all ranges. Allow me to explain by analysing the nature of combat at specific ranges.

At long range, you probably want an accurate, hard-hitting (and consequently slow-firing weapon), because enemies are likely to be obscured by cover more easily, so it is critical to land that shot within that short time-frame in which the enemy is exposed. I guess this is where most of the complaints come from; both Reapers and Sharpshooters will find the rapid-fire (relative to the slug-rifle) nature of the weapon unsuited to their style of play at this range, hence the requests for a lower rate of fire with a higher damage per shot. The need for many clicks only serves as an additional source of annoyance in this case, since most enemies are unable to retaliate at this distance.

At medium range, you probably want an accurate weapon with good damage falloff (preferably hitscan or with auto-tracking). Enemies at this range will still have access to cover, and their dodges are likely to throw off your aim slightly, but not significantly. This is where the AM-SAR truly shines, because its accuracy and hitscan nature allows the weapon to find its mark. The moderate rate of fire also means that a missed shot is not devastating; one can quickly fire off more shots to keep pumping out the damage. At this range, you'll find one can out-DPS the close-range weapons like the SMC or Point-D Vulcan, weapons prevalent for a large number of mechs, so most of the return fire will be largely ineffectual, provided one makes use of cover and dodging. The Reaper will excel at this range by virtue of its mobility and accompanying secondary, and I suspect the Sharpshooter won't be too shabby either. Clicking will still be a minor annoyance, but I would surmise that it would not in any way hinder survivability. A burst mechanic will help alleviate some of the complaints.

At close range, you probably want something with high burst, or high DPS. Accuracy and weapon velocity are secondary here, since close proximity to the enemy is likely to result in near-instant hit registration on a target which occupies 40% or more of your HUD. High burst weapons make corner-play more feasible, and high-DPS weapons allow one to end the fight quickly. The AM-SAR does neither of these; rather it strikes a balance between the two. While it may not excel at either one, it still allows the weapon to function decently as a burst or DPS platform. The rate of fire on the AM-SAR also helps less accurate players, since missing a shot is less of a detriment. But perhaps the most redeeming feature of the gun is its clicky nature. In CQC, heat management is critical. Overheating means that you won't be shooting back at the enemy. The more granular increase in heat gain (as opposed to larger chunks) reduces the probability of you overheating, since you know when to lay off the trigger more often. The clicky nature also encourages players to land each shot properly; a full-auto implementation would instead encourage mouse-dragging which seems to less accurate, and hence a waste of your mechs' heat capacity. The Reaper's manoeuvrabilty allows it to engage in CQC (which honestly surprised me), although I won't lie by saying that the same can be said of the Sharpshooter.

The reason why I'm opposed to changing the AM-SAR is because the changes will kill this versatility, which is its intended strength. A burst-fire/full-auto implementation is likely to hurt its accuracy, and hence its effectiveness at range. A slower-firing implementation will hurt its effectiveness in CQC (at least for the Reaper). In order to allow the Reaper to keep its versatility, yet not leave the Sharpshooter pilots with the short end of the stick, what I'm suggesting is that the AM-SAR on the Reaper and Sharpshooter should be decoupled. That way, changes can be made to the AM-SAR of the Sharpshooter, while allowing the AM-SAR to play its intended role on the Reaper. What those changes are up to you guys, because I don't feel qualified to talk about a mech I have not piloted before (I don't have the Sharpshooter).

#51 Officer_Joe

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Posted September 06 2014 - 01:33 PM

I play the Reaper a lot, but the AM-SAR overheats very quickly compared to Assault weapons. I bring them down to 50 or less health and the gun overheats. They should make it overheat at a higher rate of bullets.

#52 IronClamp

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Posted September 06 2014 - 03:19 PM

View PostOfficer_Joe, on September 06 2014 - 01:33 PM, said:

I play the Reaper a lot, but the AM-SAR overheats very quickly compared to Assault weapons. I bring them down to 50 or less health and the gun overheats. They should make it overheat at a higher rate of bullets.

Both guns overheat the system. AM-SAR is near continuous heat, and rather slow, but if you use the KE-Sabot with it, you notice the heat meter jumps. every time you use KE-Sabot.

The heat meter is something I'd still like to have re-engineered for Hawken, because it lacks sense.

"Or maybe we'll just have to go through you"


#53 USSIowa

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Posted September 07 2014 - 08:21 AM

Statistically speaking, the two of the primaries (Assault Rifle & Point-D Vulcan) and the TOW launcher heat up faster than the AM-SAR and KE-Sabot combined. With the exception of the SMC, there are mainly two reasons why you would perceive an increased tendency to overheat on the Reaper (refer to Salty's Hawken Spreadsheet).

1. The ability Coolant is available on the Assault and Fred, while it is unavailable on the Reaper. Coolant will give you the impression that these two mechs are less prone to overheating, as it essentially gives you a free reset to your heat gauge.

2. You need more to fire weapons on the Reaper (lower DPS for same heat) for a longer period of time compared to the Assault in order to kill your target. It is true that the Reaper has lower DPS weapons, and you'll find that it takes longer to eliminate the target mech. More time spent firing increases the probability of overheating your mech.

As for the lower DPS, I think it's justified in lieu of the Reaper's ability to engage at greater ranges. While I did mention that the Reaper can do decently well in CQC, I also did mention that it excels at mid-range combat. The range on the Reaper's weapons allow you to damage most mechs at ranges where they are unable to retaliate effectively. In other words, weaken the enemy first, before you charge straight in for the kill. Your weapons are likely to have cooled down by the time you step into butt-slapping range.

#54 IronClamp

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Posted September 07 2014 - 12:30 PM

This is what happens when the first mech you buy is an Assault (or the first mech you rank to six is Fred).

Noobs who get their heat management/perception screwed up.


A side note: Why do people complain about AM-SAR when there are two better weapons for the Reaper_ (I exclude the SS because it is one of two mechs I find completely redundant.)

Edited by IronClamp, September 07 2014 - 12:33 PM.

"Or maybe we'll just have to go through you"


#55 USSIowa

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Posted September 07 2014 - 05:37 PM

I wouldn't say that the two other weapons are better. It honestly depends on what you are trying to achieve on the mech.

Have a look at the statistics on the mech:

DPS & damage before overheat

AM-SAR: 91.67 & 1486.49
Hawkins-RPR: 99.00 & 972.97 (dat heat)
Slug Rifle: 52.17 & 827.59

Burst

AM-SAR: 30.25
Hawkins-RPR: 19.80
Slug Rifle: 60.00 (Scoped)

If you want something for CQC on the Reaper, you would naturally gravitate towards the Hawkins-RPR for its higher DPS. If you wanted a long-range mech, you would automatically pick up the Slug Rifle for its higher burst. If you wanted something in between, you would go for the AM-SAR.

However, I wouldn't say the Hawkins-RPR & Slug Rifle are better than the AM-SAR, primarily because of the Reaper's role. The mech itself is supposed to be a mid-ranged combatant. It lacks the DPS to fight effectively at closer ranges, while lacking the burst to finish off wounded opponents from afar. By choosing either option, you are rendering yourself ineffective at certain ranges. By using the AM-SAR on the other hand, you allow yourself to engage in CQC and in long-range fights, while still playing to your mech's strength.





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