67 replies to this topic

[Cloaked_Hunter]

stinkinglamb44, on July 16 2014 - 01:13 PM, said:

Mawnkey, on July 10 2014 - 11:50 PM, said:

Starting to touch the 2k+ range myself. Honestly the roughest part is that the other ranges at least have a cap on how skilled a player you run in to. Once you hit the 2k range and start getting bumped to the the big kid servers, there's no more cap. You basically become a moving target for players so ridiculously far ahead of you that it's possible you can't ever reach their skill level, and you'll spend the rest of your Hawken career at the bottom of the scoreboard.

Honestly they're going to need to add another skill bracket if the game's population gets high enough, because 2k+ is just nightmare difficulty for me. I can't learn anything if all I'm ever doing is staring at the garage every few seconds.

Edit: Don't get me wrong, I'm not finding that my tactics or strategy fail, I just know I'm at the age where I can't get past the downwards slide reflexes start to take vs. younger players. I can only compensate so much with tactics and patience.

I'm permanently stuck at 1950 and I sure hope I don't get into those. I do okay in them when I do join them, though. I've friended several 2k+ players (peterbishopgame) and their servers aren't destroying me, just making me not do as well as normal.

I'm an heat cannon infiltrator kinda guy so I always get some decent damage out

Hi there Lamb. Met with you yesterday night. I'm like 100 mmr higher than you atm and you still kicked my butt a bit lol.

[SoldierHobbes11]

Dagon, on May 10 2014 - 09:59 AM, said:

I took a break from the tech and picked up my berserker and pred again. I got my MMR back up towards 1900- 2000+, but as soon as I start getting into those stretches I start getting wrecked, hard. I'm not sure what I'm doing wrong, but I need some help getting better.

The majority of mechs I play against now are scouts, with some grenadiers, or G2s in the mix. They simply blow me up. They dodge every TOW, land every grenade, seem to know exactly where mines are (doesn't matter if they are in a group, a line, ceiling, walls, grass). I just feel completely out of my league now and getting repeatedly crushed isn't helping.

With the Berserker, I can't seem to land a TOW anymore. With Pred, no matter where I lay my mines, they are found. I've tried picking up the scout and some of the other popular picks again, but I need a lot more practice with them to be any good and still feel like I get crushed.

SO. From 1900+, what makes the huge jump in skill_ What can I do better to compete at this level_ Also, shoutout to Atem_ and crew. If he or his friends are my lobby I can expect to see 10 kdrs, 10+ kill streaks, and enjoy an agonizing defeat, whether with or against.

Once you've reached this level, they key isn't so much knowing yourself. At this point you should already know how you pilot, your strengths and weaknesses and how you most comfortably pilot your mechs. That kind of thinking will get you through the first half. You should know yourself at this point and you should be able to trust your reactions and instincts while fighting. You already know what you're going to do, and now you must know what your enemy is going to do. I've been at the 2000 MMR range for a month or two, and at some point I started to pilot on instinct. What I mean by that is I don't need to spend a lot of mental energy focusing on my aim and movements, the majority of my focus is predicting what my enemy will do next. I don't try to out pilot enemies, I try to outsmart them. Know your enemy and what they will do next, and your experience will take care of the rest. If you're dying, that means you need to change and adapt. Can't do the same thing and expect a different result. At the higher levels, it's all mind games. You have to do what your enemy won't expect, and you'll gain the advantage.

I feel like I wasn't making much sense, there....

[Desert_Fox2]

SoldierHobbes11, on July 17 2014 - 02:44 AM, said:

Once you've reached this level, they key isn't so much knowing yourself. At this point you should already know how you pilot, your strengths and weaknesses and how you most comfortably pilot your mechs. That kind of thinking will get you through the first half. You should know yourself at this point and you should be able to trust your reactions and instincts while fighting. You already know what you're going to do, and now you must know what your enemy is going to do. I've been at the 2000 MMR range for a month or two, and at some point I started to pilot on instinct. What I mean by that is I don't need to spend a lot of mental energy focusing on my aim and movements, the majority of my focus is predicting what my enemy will do next. I don't try to out pilot enemies, I try to outsmart them. Know your enemy and what they will do next, and your experience will take care of the rest. If you're dying, that means you need to change and adapt. Can't do the same thing and expect a different result. At the higher levels, it's all mind games. You have to do what your enemy won't expect, and you'll gain the advantage.

I feel like I wasn't making much sense, there....

Well, I haven't played in two months, so I probably would play like a 1750 or 1800 if I was to play.

Hobbes, you made some very good points. I just wanted to say a few things from my own experience.

Out piloting: Having complete understanding of your surroundings and knowing where corners and outcroppings are. I.E. When HF are homing in on you jump to a out cropping above you while the HF hit in front of you. Out piloting is knowing where the bugs on a map are. Bunker for instance. There are quite a few areas where you can get stuck. It is knowing how to avoid them and try to get your opponent stuck in them. When you are fighting a Pred, or anything with an EOC you don't want to get hit by their pucks. When ever they are fired make a mental note of their location. Unless they are a good shot and land the pucks on you you can avoid them.

Out smarting: Making your opponent think you went to corner B when you pop back out of corner A, which is where you just were. Then going to corner B while they are waiting for you at corner A. Out smarting is boosting forward then stopping for a second making your opponent think you stopped then continuing in your boost. In a way out smarting is very much like out piloting.

I am not challenging you. I began writing and just kept on writing. If you disagree or would like to add to either explanation please do.

One thing though, don't be predictable. By solely playing by instinct you will fall into a pattern. You will have signature moves everyone knows and will watch for. Skye has this one move. It is as reliable as the sun's rising. As soon as he begins his boost you hold your fire. Then he pauses and dodges right. Then you just let him have it.

I have never fought against my self or been recorded. So I do not know my signatures. I just try to never make the same mistake twice.

The one thing that you didn't touch on but it the most important is speed. Speed comes from knowing your mechs speed and the exact time you have between each move. I am referring to the CD on dodges, landings and boosts. I have seen some Scout pilots that have such control over their Scout they never seem to pause. The key to beating a better pilot is to simply move faster than they do. Make every move a smooth transition. Don't be jerky or execute them before the CD is done. Hit it right on the buzzer.

I think I made less sense then you.

[xeroslash]

About a month after I first started playing, I was stuck at 1850 for awhile. Playing C classes brought me into the 2k+ ranges. From there on, it can be hit or miss depending on your current skill level, but playing C classes more will allow you to slow down a bit so you take notice of your enemies more. This is a gradual process and it can take some time, especially if you've been away for awhile.

Like Hobbes said, it usually comes down to reading your opponents. It's not fail-proof, but in some cases it can make up for aging reflexes as long as you stick to the group. As you get used to it, you can try going back to your usual mechs, except the "reading your opponent" part of you will feel more instinctive. I recently started playing again here and there after being out a few weeks, and my MMR hasn't really shifted from where I left off.

Edited by xeroslash, July 17 2014 - 07:16 PM.

[Moreapples]

Start playing sustained classes in this burst meta and watch your MMR rise to over 2300.
I'm dead serious.

[Desert_Fox2]

Moreapples, on July 18 2014 - 01:46 AM, said:

Start playing sustained classes in this burst meta and watch your MMR rise to over 2300.
I'm dead serious.

And to become a Hawken god play a Heat Scout.

[SkyeBeats]

Desert_Fox2, on July 17 2014 - 07:36 AM, said:

One thing though, don't be predictable. By solely playing by instinct you will fall into a pattern. You will have signature moves everyone knows and will watch for. Skye has this one move. It is as reliable as the sun's rising. As soon as he begins his boost you hold your fire. Then he pauses and dodges right. Then you just let him have it.

Giving out my secrets eh_

[Desert_Fox2]

SkyeBeats, on July 18 2014 - 05:18 AM, said:

Desert_Fox2, on July 17 2014 - 07:36 AM, said:

One thing though, don't be predictable. By solely playing by instinct you will fall into a pattern. You will have signature moves everyone knows and will watch for. Skye has this one move. It is as reliable as the sun's rising. As soon as he begins his boost you hold your fire. Then he pauses and dodges right. Then you just let him have it.

Giving out my secrets eh_

Uh.. Well, I was trying to set you up for a boost to the right then dodge left. No one will see it coming!

Even with all the times I have fought you you still kill me.

[SoldierHobbes11]

Desert_Fox2, on July 17 2014 - 07:36 AM, said:

Well, I haven't played in two months, so I probably would play like a 1750 or 1800 if I was to play.

Hobbes, you made some very good points. I just wanted to say a few things from my own experience.

Out piloting: Having complete understanding of your surroundings and knowing where corners and outcroppings are. I.E. When HF are homing in on you jump to a out cropping above you while the HF hit in front of you. Out piloting is knowing where the bugs on a map are. Bunker for instance. There are quite a few areas where you can get stuck. It is knowing how to avoid them and try to get your opponent stuck in them. When you are fighting a Pred, or anything with an EOC you don't want to get hit by their pucks. When ever they are fired make a mental note of their location. Unless they are a good shot and land the pucks on you you can avoid them.

Out smarting: Making your opponent think you went to corner B when you pop back out of corner A, which is where you just were. Then going to corner B while they are waiting for you at corner A. Out smarting is boosting forward then stopping for a second making your opponent think you stopped then continuing in your boost. In a way out smarting is very much like out piloting.

I am not challenging you. I began writing and just kept on writing. If you disagree or would like to add to either explanation please do.

One thing though, don't be predictable. By solely playing by instinct you will fall into a pattern. You will have signature moves everyone knows and will watch for. Skye has this one move. It is as reliable as the sun's rising. As soon as he begins his boost you hold your fire. Then he pauses and dodges right. Then you just let him have it.

I have never fought against my self or been recorded. So I do not know my signatures. I just try to never make the same mistake twice.

The one thing that you didn't touch on but it the most important is speed. Speed comes from knowing your mechs speed and the exact time you have between each move. I am referring to the CD on dodges, landings and boosts. I have seen some Scout pilots that have such control over their Scout they never seem to pause. The key to beating a better pilot is to simply move faster than they do. Make every move a smooth transition. Don't be jerky or execute them before the CD is done. Hit it right on the buzzer.

I think I made less sense then you.

Oh no, I agree with a lot of what you said. Yeah, piloting solely on instinct will cause you to fall in a pattern. I mainly use piloting instinct not to try an out smart someone, but only to help save some mental energy while I'm piloting. Dodging when I see a rocket coming, 180 dodge turns and other mech maneuvers are the things I commit to instinct. I use instinct to remember how to do certain actions but not judge when to use them. As I said, higher level play isn't so much about basic piloting technique, it's about your judgement as a pilot on how you use the techniques in order to gain the edge on your enemies.

But the main point being is that you don't want to be predictable. Changing up your tactics is always a good thing as needed. As for the comparison between out piloting and out smarting, I kinda view it as the difference between knowledge and wisdom, respectively (as if I'm not being cryptic enough already).

Also, what you said about smoothness, 100% agree. This is what separates the men from the boys. Whenever I see a more skilled player, the way their mech moves is much more fluid and smooth than a newer, inexperienced player that moves like a walking trash can. Smooth piloting can make even a brawler seem fast. That's what a lot of the newer players of Hawken are missing.

[I2DI]

Well, i've read a lot of good and solid points here. BUT. Most of them are pretty obvious... I mean you can easily get all of this tricks yourself. Don't get me wrong, but i think ppl in here need some advanced tactics(and may be samples_) rather than simple tricks you will learn and use just with your mussle memory even before hitting 2000+.

P.S. I'm trying not to think "Holy sh!t, this guy has 2000+ !!!111". I personaly don't care. I just see a guy, who is better than me. I'm watching him play. How does he shoot, how does he walk, where he looks. And than i just simply adopt. From this point game just changes into constant adoptation and timing. It better have a basic general tactic which you can change while playing. After one round try  to abandon your new lerned plan and figire out new one based on your previous experience.

P.S.S. Or i just simply pick my good old assault and this is where freaking Quake starts!

[I2DI]

About piloting instinct... Such thing simply doesn't exist. What do you call an "instinct" basicly is a TON of experience from playing not only HAWKEN. For example, i played professional Team Fortress 2 back in the day + Battlefield + CS... Well you got the idea. All of that experience helping me predict other players behaviour or/and adopt to the situation. Game did change. Players didn't.

[Desert_Fox2]

SoldierHobbes11, on July 23 2014 - 09:32 PM, said:

Oh no, I agree with a lot of what you said. Yeah, piloting solely on instinct will cause you to fall in a pattern. I mainly use piloting instinct not to try an out smart someone, but only to help save some mental energy while I'm piloting. Dodging when I see a rocket coming, 180 dodge turns and other mech maneuvers are the things I commit to instinct. I use instinct to remember how to do certain actions but not judge when to use them. As I said, higher level play isn't so much about basic piloting technique, it's about your judgement as a pilot on how you use the techniques in order to gain the edge on your enemies.

But the main point being is that you don't want to be predictable. Changing up your tactics is always a good thing as needed. As for the comparison between out piloting and out smarting, I kinda view it as the difference between knowledge and wisdom, respectively (as if I'm not being cryptic enough already).

Also, what you said about smoothness, 100% agree. This is what separates the men from the boys. Whenever I see a more skilled player, the way their mech moves is much more fluid and smooth than a newer, inexperienced player that moves like a walking trash can. Smooth piloting can make even a brawler seem fast. That's what a lot of the newer players of Hawken are missing.

I while ago I read a post. The poster said, "I use angled boosts for offensive moves and dodges for defensive moves." That has always stuck with me. When I began to implement it into my play I felt like I never stopped moving, and people told me that. There is a point where you can't do anything but if you fire a tow at the second you are going to force them to move.
What do you mean by 180 dodge turns_ I think I may be unfamiliar with them. Do you mean the wave dodging_

I really like the definition you gave. Knowledge vs. wisdom. It fits perfectly! I have honestly never heard of a better example in all of Hawken. Everyone should up vote you just because of that!

So that everyone doesn't think that they are reading the ravings of a mad man my mmr is about 2120-2150.

[Desert_Fox2]

I2DI, on July 24 2014 - 04:49 AM, said:

Well, i've read a lot of good and solid points here. BUT. Most of them are pretty obvious... I mean you can easily get all of this tricks yourself. Don't get me wrong, but i think ppl in here need some advanced tactics(and may be samples_) rather than simple tricks you will learn and use just with your mussle memory even before hitting 2000+.

P.S. I'm trying not to think "Holy sh!t, this guy has 2000+ !!!111". I personaly don't care. I just see a guy, who is better than me. I'm watching him play. How does he shoot, how does he walk, where he looks. And than i just simply adopt. From this point game just changes into constant adoptation and timing. It better have a basic general tactic which you can change while playing. After one round try  to abandon your new lerned plan and figire out new one based on your previous experience.

P.S.S. Or i just simply pick my good old assault and this is where freaking Quake starts!

If you are fighting a guy that has an mmr higher than you just play defensively. Play the corners in a fight. I have beat quite a few really good players but just playing the corners. I got kind of good at it. But then I would feel bad about it and stop. Fight like a ghost. There is a ton to corner or pillar play. Like don't boost. Don't show more than half your mech. Don't get LOS if you don't have to. Use your TOWs, etc, etc.

[IronRoach]

In most FPS games it is easier to dominate when wall crawling and cover hugging playing defensively. The opponent is forced into open vulnerability to play offensively providing a target opportunity ever time. He must not just be better than you, he must be superior in all aspects, and have teammates that are in the same category against you (and hopefully your teammates as well. if you are lonewolfing, you deserve to die).

[Leonhardt]

Hawken has a movement system that allows most mechs in the game, especially A-classes, to flow. Flowing in Hawken is not just about moving well, but also about shooting well. That means making both one in the same in every aspect of your play.

Often in Hawken you will see that the coward is rewarded in the sense that by staying in the back and playing "smart" you will score well. This is often referred to as having "good positioning" and I am by no means looking down on the use of this skill because it is a skill. The problem with this is scoring well does not mean you have improved as a player where it counts the most which is the 1v1, 1v2, 1v3 and so on. My best advice_ Well I think Bruce said it best.

"Forget about winning and losing; forget about pride and pain. Let your opponent graze your skin and you smash into his flesh; let him smash into your flesh and you fracture his bones; let him fracture your bones and you take his life. Do not be concerned with escaping safely - lay your life before him." ~ Bruce Lee





EDIT: A small bio for those that may not know me contained in the spoiler below, enjoy. lol

Spoiler

I play C-class for Omniscient, but beyond my role in tournament play I can play just about every mech in the game. Some of my favorite mechs are actually Scout, Infiltrator and Vanguard. TBH I think my absolute favorites have always been Infiltrator and Scout because well there is just so much freedom of movement. Truly an experience worth having in my opinion. For reference my MMR is ~2600 sometimes it goes up and other times it goes down, but on average it tends to stay in that range. Often if you have seen a post where I reference my MMR you will see it accompanied by a statement about how I don't really buy into the MMR system all that much beyond the large scale application so try not to take it too seriously its just a number that I put in because people always ask.

Edited by Leonhardt, July 25 2014 - 02:44 PM.

[Desert_Fox2]

Leonhardt, on July 25 2014 - 11:36 AM, said:

Hawken has a movement system that allows most mechs in the game, especially A-classes, to flow. Flowing in Hawken is not just about moving well, but also about shooting well. That means making both one in the same in every aspect of your play.

Often in Hawken you will see that the coward is rewarded in the sense that by staying in the back and playing "smart" you will score well. This is often refereed to as having "good positioning" and I am by no means looking down on the use of this skill because it is a skill. The problem with this is scoring well does not mean you have improved as a player where it counts the most which is the 1v1, 1v2, 1v3 and so on. My best advice_ Well I think Bruce said it best.

"Forget about winning and losing; forget about pride and pain. Let your opponent graze your skin and you smash into his flesh; let him smash into your flesh and you fracture his bones; let him fracture your bones and you take his life. Do not be concerned with escaping safely - lay your life before him." ~ Bruce Lee

Ahhh! Another masterful post! That is about all anyone needs to know in regards to anything.

Leon, love the Bruce Lee video. He is very unique and enjoyable to watch.

[Leonhardt]

Desert_Fox2, on July 25 2014 - 01:49 PM, said:

Leon, love the Bruce Lee video. He is very unique and enjoyable to watch.

Well by now its probably no secret that I love Bruce Lee. lmao

[Amidatelion]

Desert_Fox2, on July 25 2014 - 05:06 AM, said:

I2DI, on July 24 2014 - 04:49 AM, said:

Well, i've read a lot of good and solid points here. BUT. Most of them are pretty obvious... I mean you can easily get all of this tricks yourself. Don't get me wrong, but i think ppl in here need some advanced tactics(and may be samples_) rather than simple tricks you will learn and use just with your mussle memory even before hitting 2000+.

P.S. I'm trying not to think "Holy sh!t, this guy has 2000+ !!!111". I personaly don't care. I just see a guy, who is better than me. I'm watching him play. How does he shoot, how does he walk, where he looks. And than i just simply adopt. From this point game just changes into constant adoptation and timing. It better have a basic general tactic which you can change while playing. After one round try  to abandon your new lerned plan and figire out new one based on your previous experience.

P.S.S. Or i just simply pick my good old assault and this is where freaking Quake starts!

If you are fighting a guy that has an mmr higher than you just play defensively. Play the corners in a fight. I have beat quite a few really good players but just playing the corners. I got kind of good at it. But then I would feel bad about it and stop. Fight like a ghost. There is a ton to corner or pillar play. Like don't boost. Don't show more than half your mech. Don't get LOS if you don't have to. Use your TOWs, etc, etc.

Dude corner play is where its at. On the rare chances I have in Fight Club during TAW Wednesdays the highlight is testing myself against much better players in corner play.

[SoldierHobbes11]

Desert_Fox2, on July 25 2014 - 05:01 AM, said:

I while ago I read a post. The poster said, "I use angled boosts for offensive moves and dodges for defensive moves."

Either my Fat Raider accidentally got a hunk of scrap metal wedged in its grill or I just had an epiphany from reading that. I tended to do this as well, but not as often as I should now that I'm actually aware that it's a thing. I'm gonna have to try this a bit more.

Quote

What do you mean by 180 dodge turns_ I think I may be unfamiliar with them. Do you mean the wave dodging_

If by wave dodging you mean when you boost forward, you quickly turn your camera to the side so you can dodge into your boost trajectory, then yes. Only difference is, with the 180 dodge turn you keep turning your camera all the way around instead of snapping it back forward. It really helps with getting behind people or surprising flying noobs by going right under them and firing on their backside. It's better than boosting forward and then quickly executing a 180 spin. The 180 dodge doesn't make you freeze in place for a quarter second and the camera doesn't jerk violently around. I can pull off these 180 dodges even in C classes, but it's obviously easier in an A. Also, if you have an air compressor, you can do these over people's heads. Just make sure you're high enough before you hit the air dodge. I can do successful 180 air dodges in my Brawler of all things, but it requires much more precise planning and movement, so I sometimes go splat on people's blast shields, or better yet, land on their heads. Getting sat on by a brawler hurts.

[Amidatelion]

Ok, I apparently accidentally broke 2k this evening (I blame TAW night and a couple of excellent siege matches) and god DAMN I got smacked down hard. We are talking Daffy Duck gets a mallet to the head and gets smashed through the ground into the floor below.

Now I'm at the 1800/1900 border again and I'm just aching from that smackdown because I have not lost that hard since I started playing. How the heck can I improve when there's just no scaling_