79 replies to this topic

[GalaxyRadio]

We don't know what happens next. Only thing i know is, ADH is telling us they will be an update, and if not, this game is gona die, thats right, we loosed again more then 200 players in 2 weeks, now our playerbase is only 800 per day, it was 1100 3 weeks before.

Another problem is, veteran and extremly skilled pilots get mixed, so new players dont have any change to fight back and have some fun.

If i play and have to play againts them, using a sneaky mech, i almost do 50-75% of all kills in 1 tdm match, and iam not a skilled player, only one with much experience. So it ends often with 40/under 10 or 40/under 20. Terrible.

So, what can i do to balance this out_ Right, i play tech to support my team and those games will end most of the time in fair games like 25/29 or something like that and everyone staysa and have fun.

Kind Regards,
Galaxy Radio

[IronClamp]

GalaxyRadio, on August 03 2014 - 09:51 AM, said:

Seriously,

make a damn PROTECTION for this game no one can break, i'am damn tired of hackers now, today again this fuzzy bunny even with skilled Players. If you don't, well, there will be no more money from my side, i'am really sick of this!

Not so Kind Regards,
Galaxy Radio

Protection that no one could break_ Are you really that naive_ Code is a dumb entity, when it gets broken, it can only sound the alarm, not fix itself and give chase. When someone breaks a high level encryption or cracks open your computer's drive, the only thing the code can do is say: "Hey!....Hey!....Hey!......HEY, there's some god damn bastard fuzzy bunny with me! There's some god damned.....", and often times that only happens when the hacker runs into a hiccup.

[GalaxyRadio]

No i'am not, was only angry that day, that is all

Kind Regards,
Galaxy Radio

[Nodeghost]

Just ran into my first obvious hacker.
Some little fuzzy bunny using a CR-T with Reaper damage and class C armor.
Uppity bastard too.


Really put me off the game

[BurnsHot]

Were you able to get video and report him_

[M4st0d0n]

This user pointed me here because it seems reports are not working anymore and three days bans are a bit pointless...

[BurnsHot]

M4st0d0n, on September 16 2014 - 03:29 AM, said:

This user pointed me here because it seems reports are not working anymore and three days bans are a bit pointless...

Your post is a little cryptic.  Let me guess.  Said person was above the shields on Frontline doing shenanigans and basically ruining the game for everyone_

You threatened to report the player and after they said they didn't care,  you came here to post a screenshot of the chat window.

Its true that we have reported that person several times and apparently the player admits to receiving a 3 day ban.

Just open another ticket and send in your evidence maybe the punishment can be increased.

Looking at your post count M4st0d0n, I think you already know that this is a Callout thread and you shouldn't have posted the players name for all to see.

Maybe you can skirt the rules by changing the name to something like "WalkaBear".

[M4st0d0n]

BurnsHot, on September 16 2014 - 06:02 AM, said:

M4st0d0n, on September 16 2014 - 03:29 AM, said:

This user pointed me here because it seems reports are not working anymore and three days bans are a bit pointless...

Your post is a little cryptic.  Let me guess.  Said person was above the shields on Frontline doing shenanigans and basically ruining the game for everyone_

You threatened to report the player and after they said they didn't care,  you came here to post a screenshot of the chat window.

Its true that we have reported that person several times and apparently the player admits to receiving a 3 day ban.

Just open another ticket and send in your evidence maybe the punishment can be increased.

Looking at your post count M4st0d0n, I think you already know that this is a Callout thread and you shouldn't have posted the players name for all to see.

Maybe you can skirt the rules by changing the name to something like "WalkaBear".

Well, guess what you want, but... I dont think this is a callout post. I havent provided proofs of anything. I've filled my fair share of bug reports but never ever filled a report about cheaters or hackers. There's no users as such in Hawken. Like Mr Panda here said, this is totally pointless, and I dont want to spoil his mindset.

[ASTEDA]

What I think is odd is that nobody is talking about packet manipulation- which is by far the most serious form of cheating in on-line games because it’s almost impossible to prove without algorithms.  There are true hackers out there who can exploit this method, but there are also programs out there that anyone with a basic knowledge of networks can mitigate. About 16 years ago I ran a clan competition website for a popular FPS team game. That  game was modeled almost exactly like Hawken is today. The game’s servers were ripe with the same kind of hackers/cheaters that we’re seeing in Hawken. Anyway, Activision implemented some kind of screener that pretty much eliminated any kind of .config hack, as well as those who were running alternate software like aimbots, unlimited ammo, and weapons perks. What it didn’t eliminate were the packet manipulators, but it did shed more light on a rather small group of players who were consistently accused of cheating before the anti-cheat programs were utilized on the server. With all the obvious hackers/cheaters gone, this small group of players faced a lot more scrutiny from the playing community until it was revealed by Activision that most of them were using a network manipulator that allowed them to adjust their incoming and outgoing packets. You see, nobody could explain how a dude with a ping below 50ms could deliver full damage yet sustain minimal damage from what appeared to be direct hits and splash damage. In any case, Activision used some kind of method to determine that these players were cheating and banned their accounts. The game had relatively little problems with cheaters after that.

I don’t know about you all, but I can deal with the bots... I just find another game. But the packet guys… dear lord, there are quite a few here who just seem to escape speculation because of their self-professed “talent” for the game and the fact that many players here aren’t even aware that people can manipulate packet loss to give them a solid advantage. A few of these guys went from being sub par/average players to being top dogs almost overnight… and I have yet to see anyone mention this sudden acquisition of “skill” as a problem. Yes, there are truly talented players out there who can use the terrain, tactics and orbs to win 90% of the time… and you can see how they do it and you admire them, but at the same time there are quite a few who just don’t display any talent for the game yet manage to dominate almost exclusively. Those are the guys who are ruining the game.

[BurnsHot]

M4st0d0n, on September 16 2014 - 07:49 AM, said:

BurnsHot, on September 16 2014 - 06:02 AM, said:

M4st0d0n, on September 16 2014 - 03:29 AM, said:

This user pointed me here because it seems reports are not working anymore and three days bans are a bit pointless...

Your post is a little cryptic.  Let me guess.  Said person was above the shields on Frontline doing shenanigans and basically ruining the game for everyone_

You threatened to report the player and after they said they didn't care,  you came here to post a screenshot of the chat window.

Its true that we have reported that person several times and apparently the player admits to receiving a 3 day ban.

Just open another ticket and send in your evidence maybe the punishment can be increased.

Looking at your post count M4st0d0n, I think you already know that this is a Callout thread and you shouldn't have posted the players name for all to see.

Maybe you can skirt the rules by changing the name to something like "WalkaBear".

Well, guess what you want, but... I dont think this is a callout post. I havent provided proofs of anything. I've filled my fair share of bug reports but never ever filled a report about cheaters or hackers. There's no users as such in Hawken. Like Mr Panda here said, this is totally pointless, and I dont want to spoil his mindset.

Why did you post it here in the Hackers thread if you are not accusing the player of Hacking, Cheating, exploiting bugs in the map etc.

You are drawing negative attention to the player and its against the rules.  Like I suggested you could have did a play on words and called the player WalkaBear or whatever.

I hope I didn't sound like I was coming down hard on you.

Just giving you something to thinking about.

[M4st0d0n]

BurnsHot, on September 16 2014 - 08:02 AM, said:

M4st0d0n, on September 16 2014 - 07:49 AM, said:

BurnsHot, on September 16 2014 - 06:02 AM, said:

M4st0d0n, on September 16 2014 - 03:29 AM, said:

This user pointed me here because it seems reports are not working anymore and three days bans are a bit pointless...

Your post is a little cryptic.  Let me guess.  Said person was above the shields on Frontline doing shenanigans and basically ruining the game for everyone_

You threatened to report the player and after they said they didn't care,  you came here to post a screenshot of the chat window.

Its true that we have reported that person several times and apparently the player admits to receiving a 3 day ban.

Just open another ticket and send in your evidence maybe the punishment can be increased.

Looking at your post count M4st0d0n, I think you already know that this is a Callout thread and you shouldn't have posted the players name for all to see.

Maybe you can skirt the rules by changing the name to something like "WalkaBear".

Well, guess what you want, but... I dont think this is a callout post. I havent provided proofs of anything. I've filled my fair share of bug reports but never ever filled a report about cheaters or hackers. There's no users as such in Hawken. Like Mr Panda here said, this is totally pointless, and I dont want to spoil his mindset.

Why did you post it here in the Hackers thread if you are not accusing the player of Hacking, Cheating, exploiting bugs in the map etc.

You are drawing negative attention to the player and its against the rules.  Like I suggested you could have did a play on words and called the player WalkaBear or whatever.

I hope I didn't sound like I was coming down hard on you.

Just giving you something to thinking about.

Well the title of this thread is "How we deal with hackers". And I tought the opinions of Mr RunaPanda perfectly sumarizes the way hackers are dealt with here. Let's think about it and read him carefully before getting negative. He's like most of the community, pointing numerous suspicious users to use the report tickets, eventually asking them to take the time to upload some videos. He's enforcing the notion of fair judgement, confirming that the lack of proof or any system implemented to detect third party programs would only get a three day ban. And he summarizes with a lot of positivity than even in three days of redemption and self reflection he could still play lots of other shooters.

[IronClamp]

....erm.....

wasn't he trying to avoid this_ I mean really, he told you to think about this, not respond in such fashion.

(Drawing from the reading skills you've portrayed: Think is a key word here)

(And also, you, by conditions implied and blatantly stated by many community members, did call out the player)

[M4st0d0n]

Well, thanks for bumping this thread again man, keep up the good work.

[BurnsHot]

M4st0d0n, on September 17 2014 - 06:34 AM, said:

Well, thanks for bumping this thread again man, keep up the good work.

Careful you don't take this too far. All you are doing is showing how much said player got under your skin.

Said player probably doesn't even remember your name.

Just something to think about.

[BurnsHot]

ASTEDA, on September 16 2014 - 07:50 AM, said:

What I think is odd is that nobody is talking about packet manipulation- which is by far the most serious form of cheating in on-line games because it’s almost impossible to prove without algorithms.  There are true hackers out there who can exploit this method, but there are also programs out there that anyone with a basic knowledge of networks can mitigate. About 16 years ago I ran a clan competition website for a popular FPS team game. That  game was modeled almost exactly like Hawken is today. The game’s servers were ripe with the same kind of hackers/cheaters that we’re seeing in Hawken. Anyway, Activision implemented some kind of screener that pretty much eliminated any kind of .config hack, as well as those who were running alternate software like aimbots, unlimited ammo, and weapons perks. What it didn’t eliminate were the packet manipulators, but it did shed more light on a rather small group of players who were consistently accused of cheating before the anti-cheat programs were utilized on the server. With all the obvious hackers/cheaters gone, this small group of players faced a lot more scrutiny from the playing community until it was revealed by Activision that most of them were using a network manipulator that allowed them to adjust their incoming and outgoing packets. You see, nobody could explain how a dude with a ping below 50ms could deliver full damage yet sustain minimal damage from what appeared to be direct hits and splash damage. In any case, Activision used some kind of method to determine that these players were cheating and banned their accounts. The game had relatively little problems with cheaters after that.

I don’t know about you all, but I can deal with the bots... I just find another game. But the packet guys… dear lord, there are quite a few here who just seem to escape speculation because of their self-professed “talent” for the game and the fact that many players here aren’t even aware that people can manipulate packet loss to give them a solid advantage. A few of these guys went from being sub par/average players to being top dogs almost overnight… and I have yet to see anyone mention this sudden acquisition of “skill” as a problem. Yes, there are truly talented players out there who can use the terrain, tactics and orbs to win 90% of the time… and you can see how they do it and you admire them, but at the same time there are quite a few who just don’t display any talent for the game yet manage to dominate almost exclusively. Those are the guys who are ruining the game.

I think you should create a new post on this subject.  You might have more players read your thoughts and want to comment on them.  Its really technical so I don't know what I could add to this.

Only that what you described can only be implemented from the Server side.  Meaning we are at the mercy of the Devs if they take your idea or not.

[M4st0d0n]

BurnsHot, on September 17 2014 - 06:39 AM, said:

M4st0d0n, on September 17 2014 - 06:34 AM, said:

Well, thanks for bumping this thread again man, keep up the good work.

Careful you don't take this too far. All you are doing is showing how much said player got under your skin.

Said player probably doesn't even remember your name.

Just something to think about.

Burnshot, that's kind of you to worry, but you should relax man. Take a break from free moderating. What's too far exactly_ Which rules in your head did you think I broke_ Will I get a three day ban_ Please stop disrupting the feedback here. I posted some well written toughts from RunaPanda about the lack of real consequences in cheating in this game. My name, his name, your name, doesnt matter. Now you can bury this post with the usual "get a vid of this and that" you're hammering like a shellack record, but... Just something for you to think about... Do you really think there's a guy right now at adhesive watching homemade vids from users reporting cheaters_ Video as proof without any proper spectator mode nor VAC system is not a good way to confirm cheats, even for a beta.

Same thing with Asteda's post. You think it's too technical, it could be in another thread, YET its perfectly on topic and it sould better be on a sticky post to be actually constructive.

Edited by M4st0d0n, September 17 2014 - 04:57 PM.

[BurnsHot]

M4st0d0n, on September 17 2014 - 04:57 PM, said:

BurnsHot, on September 17 2014 - 06:39 AM, said:

M4st0d0n, on September 17 2014 - 06:34 AM, said:

Well, thanks for bumping this thread again man, keep up the good work.

Careful you don't take this too far. All you are doing is showing how much said player got under your skin.

Said player probably doesn't even remember your name.

Just something to think about.

Burnshot, that's kind of you to worry, but you should relax man. Take a break from free moderating. What's too far exactly_ Which rules in your head did you think I broke_ Will I get a three day ban_ Please stop disrupting the feedback here. I posted some well written toughts from RunaPanda about the lack of real consequences in cheating in this game. My name, his name, your name, doesnt matter. Now you can bury this post with the usual "get a vid of this and that" you're hammering like a shellack record, but... Just something for you to think about... Do you really think there's a guy right now at adhesive watching homemade vids from users reporting cheaters_ Video as proof without any proper spectator mode nor VAC system is not a good way to confirm cheats, even for a beta.

Same thing with Asteda's post. You think it's too technical, it could be in another thread, YET its perfectly on topic and it sould better be on a sticky post to be actually constructive.

Your original Post was a Callout, PERIOD.

I tried to be very polite in trying to say that and pointed out from your post count that you should know better.

I never disagreed with you that the player's behavior or words were bad and encouraged you to Report it properly using a support ticket.

If you wanted to give the community a prospective of how "cheating" players think about the rules.  Well guess what they CHEAT.  We already know Cheaters don't care about the rules.  So what valuable information are you providing to the community_

Your only goal here is to name and shame, but all you have accomplished is showing how bad Said Player Burned you.  I know you are angry, and I wasn't trying to make this between you and me, but you keep going on and on about it.

My advise to Asteda was to create his own thread so to get more Players to read it and start an actual discussion.  His thread just got buried here under our mole hill of a back and forth.

You need to just let it go.

Edited by BurnsHot, September 18 2014 - 07:43 AM.

[Call_Me_Ishmael]

ASTEDA, on September 16 2014 - 07:50 AM, said:

What I think is odd is that nobody is talking about packet manipulation- which is by far the most serious form of cheating in on-line games because it’s almost impossible to prove without algorithms.  There are true hackers out there who can exploit this method, but there are also programs out there that anyone with a basic knowledge of networks can mitigate. About 16 years ago I ran a clan competition website for a popular FPS team game. That  game was modeled almost exactly like Hawken is today. The game’s servers were ripe with the same kind of hackers/cheaters that we’re seeing in Hawken. Anyway, Activision implemented some kind of screener that pretty much eliminated any kind of .config hack, as well as those who were running alternate software like aimbots, unlimited ammo, and weapons perks. What it didn’t eliminate were the packet manipulators, but it did shed more light on a rather small group of players who were consistently accused of cheating before the anti-cheat programs were utilized on the server. With all the obvious hackers/cheaters gone, this small group of players faced a lot more scrutiny from the playing community until it was revealed by Activision that most of them were using a network manipulator that allowed them to adjust their incoming and outgoing packets. You see, nobody could explain how a dude with a ping below 50ms could deliver full damage yet sustain minimal damage from what appeared to be direct hits and splash damage. In any case, Activision used some kind of method to determine that these players were cheating and banned their accounts. The game had relatively little problems with cheaters after that.

I don’t know about you all, but I can deal with the bots... I just find another game. But the packet guys… dear lord, there are quite a few here who just seem to escape speculation because of their self-professed “talent” for the game and the fact that many players here aren’t even aware that people can manipulate packet loss to give them a solid advantage. A few of these guys went from being sub par/average players to being top dogs almost overnight… and I have yet to see anyone mention this sudden acquisition of “skill” as a problem. Yes, there are truly talented players out there who can use the terrain, tactics and orbs to win 90% of the time… and you can see how they do it and you admire them, but at the same time there are quite a few who just don’t display any talent for the game yet manage to dominate almost exclusively. Those are the guys who are ruining the game.

I have suspected the same mechanism.  I run into players who melt me despite me landing more shots squarely on them - and I am so very frustrated with having to make this choice: quit the game and lose ~5pts MMR, or stay and potentially get hammered and lose up to 15pts MMR.

I have poured a LOT of effort into being good at this game, to play the terrain and play the mechs.  I feel I am one of the better pure players out there (I use accounts which are not Ishmael, but even Ishmael is now a 2100+ MMR acct).

NTP (network time protocol) keeps absolute struct timeval synch on clients. Middleware socket transport ought to be able to overcome or at least flag high packet loss, and server-side datamining/regression chron jobs should be able to identify IP addresses (players) consistently correlating high scoring, high survivability, and low damage, as well as a lot of missed reports in player position or a lot of corrective updates in player position.

PCs are fast enough to be able to collect and report these stats, the server farm ought to be able to identify suspected abusers/hackers.

Cheaters suck.  I want to lose to players of more skill, not players who can game the game.

[thabz]

Reporting players does not work anymore, guys who have the power couldn't care less

[hestoned]

AMERICA