74 replies to this topic

[Orihalcon]

Okay so... I didnt have any experience with the Flak inf from alpha, but I definitely like Inf with HEAT in this. If i sneak up on someone and land a full charged HEAT + GL shot they get chunked for like 270ish damage. Plus, it can be forgiving on near misses if you charge it with the splash, and doesnt fail at mid range if you can aim.

[AsianJoyKiller]

Orihalcon, on October 28 2012 - 04:13 PM, said:

Okay so... I didnt have any experience with the Flak inf from alpha, but I definitely like Inf with HEAT in this. If i sneak up on someone and land a full charged HEAT + GL shot they get chunked for like 270ish damage. Plus, it can be forgiving on near misses if you charge it with the splash, and doesnt fail at mid range if you can aim.

Flak = Shotgun
I'm pretty sure you can imagine the rest.
Quick A-Class darting around, popping out of cover, blasting people with a Flak/nade combo and possibly throwing an HE in there for extra spicy love.
Now it's a little harder to do closer quarters with the INF, but the trade off is the HEAT is a lot more useful at a range than the flak. Powerwise it just made kind of a sidegrade. Inf is still the ultimate burst damage mech.

[Orihalcon]

AsianJoyKiller, on October 28 2012 - 04:50 PM, said:

Orihalcon, on October 28 2012 - 04:13 PM, said:

Okay so... I didnt have any experience with the Flak inf from alpha, but I definitely like Inf with HEAT in this. If i sneak up on someone and land a full charged HEAT + GL shot they get chunked for like 270ish damage. Plus, it can be forgiving on near misses if you charge it with the splash, and doesnt fail at mid range if you can aim.

Flak = Shotgun
I'm pretty sure you can imagine the rest.
Quick A-Class darting around, popping out of cover, blasting people with a Flak/nade combo and possibly throwing an HE in there for extra spicy love.
Now it's a little harder to do closer quarters with the INF, but the trade off is the HEAT is a lot more useful at a range than the flak. Powerwise it just made kind of a sidegrade. Inf is still the ultimate burst damage mech.

Yeah i know the flak is a shottie. Not to fond of it myself, but thats probably because atm the only way i can access it is by rolling brawler (eww slowness).

If they put the flak back on the inf ill probably give it a go. If only because sometimes assaults figure out that if they hold down left click and get in point blank range, ill kill myself on my explosions before they do :/

[Nitris]

I have to say I much prefered the Flak Cannon over the HEAT Cannon.

Flak Cannon felt "right". I felt the Infiltrator class was all about flanking and/or getting behind enemy lines and causing mayhem and panic. The constant damage from the Flak Cannon gave the Infiltrator a way to force the enemy to react. Now the Infiltrator has lost that constant damage, they have also lost the ability to truely cause havoc and mayhem behind enemy lines.

In order to be effective, Infiltrator pilots must now think about leading their target for two different firing arcs and swap between the two very frequently. It is possible, but has certainly raised the skill requirements quite significantly for the Infiltrator, which I feel was uncalled for seeing as just flanking effectively takes a fair amount of skill and a bit of luck.

[AsianJoyKiller]

Nitris, on October 28 2012 - 05:44 PM, said:

I have to say I much prefered the Flak Cannon over the HEAT Cannon.

Flak Cannon felt "right". I felt the Infiltrator class was all about flanking and/or getting behind enemy lines and causing mayhem and panic. The constant damage from the Flak Cannon gave the Infiltrator a way to force the enemy to react. Now the Infiltrator has lost that constant damage, they have also lost the ability to truely cause havoc and mayhem behind enemy lines.

In order to be effective, Infiltrator pilots must now think about leading their target for two different firing arcs and swap between the two very frequently. It is possible, but has certainly raised the skill requirements quite significantly for the Infiltrator, which I feel was uncalled for seeing as just flanking effectively takes a fair amount of skill and a bit of luck.

Don't overblow it.
Infiltrator was by far the best A-class mech, and at least in the top 3 of all mechs when it had the flak.
The skill floor for it was actually pretty low, as you didn't need to lead the flak, and in the GL is easier than the TOW to hit with in those ranges. You were able to get tremendous burst damage on an incredibly mobile mech.
And flanking taking skill and luck_
It's not nearly that hard to flank, especially when you have a special ability purpose built for flanking.
With the HEAT cannon, you can still get amazing performance out of the INF, but to do so it requires more than a little skill. It was needed.
In fact, I still think it's too powerful (which is why I consider it the current best mech).

[Nitris]

I disagree on the low skill floor.
Long range hits with the grenade launcher, and rebound kills aren't easy to pull off.
If you wasted all your fuel boosting flanking around and up to someone and then hit them with an alpha attack, they can boost away from you back to their teammates fairly easily while you're stuck recharging.
Keep in mind you need fuel to dodge incase they decide to take you on.
You had to conserve fuel so that you had enough to chase/dodge, or indeed get good with longer ranged/trick shots with the grenade launcher.
There was more to think about than "HURR DURR I ARE ASSAULT I RUN AT YOU TILL YOU DIIIIIIEEEEEEE!!", or better yet "I'm just gonna hang back here and pop! You're dead from halfway across the map and you can't even see me." You had to know when to flank, and when to attack after you had flanked.

Now that the flak is gone I simply feel like the role of the Infiltrator has changed to more of an mid ranged harraser with a decent escape skill. If we have that flanking skill why not have flanking weapons so we can use it_ The HEAT is not a bad weapon I'll give it that, but the Flak is much better for surprising people and being able to take them down.

If you want to talk about low skill floors, then lets talk about the sharpshooter.

[Kyrzon]

This is the build I posted earlier this morning and I actually think HEAT is a ridiculous addition to the infiltrators arsenal. I end up taking first or (rarely) second on the XP contribution for a Team/Deathmatch with this build, while maintaining a relatively high KDR; player KDR is at 4.48 and climbing.

My current favorite at the moment would have to be a variant of the Infiltrator that I refer to as the Assassin. An A-Class mech that runs an Assault Rifle primary, Heat Cannon alternate, and Grenade Launcher secondary, with a special Camouflage compliment, the infiltrator has a high damage and mobility potential that when exercised behind enemy lines can prove to be disorienting and damaging to your enemies.

Primary Weapon Selection: Heat Cannon

Item Kit:
Offensive Item -- H.E. Charge
Defensive Item -- Repair Charge
Functional Item -- EMP

Offensive Internal -- Special Weapon Loader (-0.5s secondary reload)
Defensive Internal -- Repair Kit (30 hp/sec increased repair rate)
Functional Internal -- Thrusters (2.2 m/s increased forward boost speed)

Optimizations:
Offense -- 0 Points
Defense -- 8 Points
-3/3 Decrease Repair Startup Time (-.45s)
-2/2 Increase Dodge Speed (+3 m/s)
-3/3 Increase Repair Rate (+15 hp/s)
Movement -- 17 Points
-3/3 Increase Walk Speed (+1.5 m/s)
-3/3 Increase Accelleration Rate (-.5s)
-3/3 Increase Thruster Regen Rate (+.15 r/s)
-3/3 Increase Boost Forward Speed (+ 1.98 m/s)
-2/2 Increase Max Thruster Energy (+1.5)
-1/1 Reduced Dodge Cooldown (-.25s)
-1/1 Decrease Radar Signature Distance (-12m)
-1/1 Increase Walk/Run/Boost speed (2 m/s)

Stacked Bonuses:
+45 hp/s armor regen
+6.18 m/s boost speed
+3.5 m/s Walk/Run speed

Breakdown -- First I'll start off by saying that high mobility is crucial for any mech, A-Classes in particular due to having the lowest base health in the game. I run a heat cannon because of how easy it is to manage your weapon heat when rapidly deploying grenades and charged heat salvos, granting far and away increased combat persistence and greater potential damage over time due to not having to intentionally slow down shots due to high heat generation. H.E. Grenades as a compliment to the secondary create a high burst potential versus unaware foes (an ideal situation for the infiltrator) or for deploying a chain hazardous to follow grenades in your getaway route in the event things get hairy and you need to take advantage of that +6.18 m/s increased boost speed. Running the repair charge internal allows you to set up a high capacity repair torch that you can use to bait foes that are suspecting a heavily weakened target around a corner, or to increase your already VERY rapid heal regeneration speeds. I use EMP mainly to disable a foe that may have found that I had snuck up on them before deploying H.E. charges or to hinder a foe that may be successively landing shots despite the mech's high mobility.

Weaknesses -- Dealing with foes at long range and open terrain. A smart sharpshooter or sniper (if they bring it back) user can make very, very quick work of your mech if they've caught you at range. Counter this by attempting to navigate to your desired destination by utilizing built-in camouflage or erratic cover-to-cover travel paths.

Strengths -- Able to unleash considerable damage in simultaneous salvo dispensing. Due to the heat cannon not having a stable or constant sound signature--unlike the main primary for this loadout, the assault rifle--and being able to be charged up without being revealed on radar, it can be difficult for enemies to pinpoint your location without first consulting the radar to ascertain your location, at which point you've already put a considerable amount of hurt on them.

Final notes: At a distance this build SCREAMS boost in, engage, boost out-- and this is a viable tactic for some--but the key point to remember is that this build is more about arriving at your location undetected; walking/running is slower, but doesn't reveal your location on the radar. Being able to slip in behind your enemy, or from a lateral flank can give you a crucial advantage over your foes in a TDM or Siege, and walking up to a 1v1 or group fight in DM engaging multiple foes with simultaneous grenade salvos allow you to quickly gain the upper hand in what may have been a fair fight.

Please feel free to critique or use this build as your own!

Edited by Kyrzon, October 28 2012 - 09:44 PM.

[Phos]

I have a hard time telling where heat cannon projectiles go.  No idea if it's lag or the projectile is slow or what.

[Juodvarnis]

To be honest i feel that Infiltrator should get a certain NDA forbidden smaller version of Flak and the SMC. A mech that can flank so easily shouldn't have such powerful burst damage weaponry.

[Orihalcon]

Juodvarnis, on October 28 2012 - 10:15 PM, said:

To be honest i feel that Infiltrator should get a certain NDA forbidden smaller version of Flak and the SMC. A mech that can flank so easily shouldn't have such powerful burst damage weaponry.

Except thats the whole point of a class that is skilled at flanking.

See: TF2 Scout, and to a different extent, Spy

[Juodvarnis]

Orihalcon, on October 28 2012 - 10:42 PM, said:

Juodvarnis, on October 28 2012 - 10:15 PM, said:

To be honest i feel that Infiltrator should get a certain NDA forbidden smaller version of Flak and the SMC. A mech that can flank so easily shouldn't have such powerful burst damage weaponry.

Except thats the whole point of a class that is skilled at flanking.

See: TF2 Scout, and to a different extent, Spy

Except Infiltrator is more like the soldier with cloak. Just remember that Scout and Spy from tf2 are MUCH more vulnerable. They have only about 100 health, compared to soldiers 200 and heavies 300. And here infiltrators have 500 health compared to 650 of mediums and 850 of heavies.

Edited by Juodvarnis, October 28 2012 - 11:13 PM.

[Beemann]

TF2 scout takes considerably more skill than the Infiltrator does...
And it's not like you can rocket/sticky jump away, or push the infiltrator away with explosives, or nearly instagib it with a machinegun etc. etc. etc.

Edited by Beemann, October 28 2012 - 11:15 PM.

[Sumrs]

I dont like that they decrease GLauncher's projectile speed, and damage.
I dont really care about primary weapon choices, but the new GL has no more advantages than TOW Rocket.

Edited by Sumrs, October 29 2012 - 01:08 AM.

[Beemann]

Sumrs, on October 29 2012 - 01:08 AM, said:

I dont like that they decrease GLauncher's projectile speed, and damage.
I dont really care about primary weapon choices, but the new GL has no more advantages than TOW Rocket.

Um... what_
The projectile speed starts out higher but maxes out earlier. The damage is higher, while the AOE radius is lower and the GL has more utility but less range

...That sounds suspiciously like balance to me

[Sumrs]

Beemann, on October 29 2012 - 01:17 AM, said:

Sumrs, on October 29 2012 - 01:08 AM, said:

I dont like that they decrease GLauncher's projectile speed, and damage.
I dont really care about primary weapon choices, but the new GL has no more advantages than TOW Rocket.

Um... what_
The projectile speed starts out higher but maxes out earlier. The damage is higher, while the AOE radius is lower and the GL has more utility but less range

...That sounds suspiciously like balance to me

So now GL deals less damage than TOW, and im nearly sure that projectile speed was decreased a bit, than it was in alfa.

[Kyrzon]

I think the grenade launcher also happens to have a larger damage radius than the tow launcher does, giving more forgiveness for inaccurate shots.

[AsianJoyKiller]

Sumrs, on October 29 2012 - 01:46 AM, said:

Beemann, on October 29 2012 - 01:17 AM, said:

Sumrs, on October 29 2012 - 01:08 AM, said:

I dont like that they decrease GLauncher's projectile speed, and damage.
I dont really care about primary weapon choices, but the new GL has no more advantages than TOW Rocket.

Um... what_
The projectile speed starts out higher but maxes out earlier. The damage is higher, while the AOE radius is lower and the GL has more utility but less range

...That sounds suspiciously like balance to me

So now GL deals less damage than TOW, and im nearly sure that projectile speed was decreased a bit, than it was in alfa.

On direct hit GL (245) does more damage than the TOW (225).
The projectile speed is a flat 12000, which I believe is unchanged.

The GL is better at close and mid ranges since it has a linear flight speed and a higher speed than the TOW missles starts at. That means at short range, it will reach your target faster than a TOW, and since it doesn't accelerate like the TOW, it's easier to predict where to aim.
On top of that, you can detonate it, bounce it off walls, lay one on the floor like a mine and it has a smaller AOE which makes it safer to use in close quarters.
I'd say the TOW is the one with the disadvantages...

[Sumrs]

AsianJoyKiller, on October 29 2012 - 01:56 AM, said:

On direct hit GL (245) does more damage than the TOW (225).
The projectile speed is a flat 12000, which I believe is unchanged.

What source this information from_

I can see in game description 170 for GL, and 185 for TOW.
And i saw the damage they did by direct hits. GL became weaker.

As for projectile speed, i played enough with GL in alfa, to remember the projectile dynamics, and after the first shot by GL in beta i immediately felt this slowdown.
Now it requires even more predicting in the close range, and almost ineffective at mid range.

Edited by Sumrs, October 29 2012 - 04:47 AM.

[PiVoR]

TOW is definitely not 185, it feels stronger than from alpha.

[AsianJoyKiller]

Sumrs, on October 29 2012 - 04:38 AM, said:

What source this information from_
I can see in game description 170 for GL, and 185 for TOW.

PiVoR, on October 29 2012 - 05:00 AM, said:

TOW is definitely not 185, it feels stronger than from alpha.

Straight from the config files


[HawkenGame.R_Proj_GrenadeLauncher]
SpeedDefault=12000
MinSpeedDefault=12000.0
MaxSpeedDefault=12000.0
DamageDefault=245.0
DamageRadiusDefault=750
Bounciness=0.4
CooldownTime=1.0
ExplodeTime=9.75
ProximityDistance=250.0
ExplosionCameraShakeRadius=2200

[HawkenGame.R_Proj_Rocket]
SpeedDefault=2500.0
MaxSpeedDefault=25000.0
AccelRateDefault=2000
DamageDefault=225.0
DamageRadiusDefault=950.0
ExplosionCameraShakeRadius=2200.0