68 replies to this topic

[D20Face]

The turret mode is statistically extremely powerful. It reduces damage by almost double the amount that the damage reduction ability does, autoheals in one form, and damage buffs in another. It's downside is negligible against better players and the benefits are extreme.

The issue is that most people can't shoot a target that dodges, which is sort of sad. A player that CAN shoot a moving target will find the turret ability give them a guaranteed kill in a duel(barring emp).

Edit: On topic, assault is piss since overheating is next to impossible.

Edited by D20Face, October 26 2012 - 06:23 PM.

[Immie]

Assault is a B class now

Berserker (what assault used to be) is weaker then infiltrator

Brawler (C class) is, from my experience, the most powerful mech in the game right now. Nothing competes with the flak cannon except the vulcan, which is currently MIA.


And IMO, A class was never really OP in Alpha either. Better players favor mobility, newer ones like HP pools. Any perceived imbalance was because of the players, not the classes.

Edited by Immie, October 26 2012 - 06:34 PM.

[Coot]

Immie, on October 26 2012 - 06:33 PM, said:

Assault is a B class now

Berserker (what assault used to be) is weaker then infiltrator

Brawler (C class) is, from my experience, the most powerful mech in the game right now. Nothing competes with the flak cannon except the vulcan, which is currently MIA.


And IMO, A class was never really OP in Alpha either. Better players favor mobility, newer ones like HP pools. Any perceived imbalance was because of the players, not the classes.

GL + Flak should just not be a possible combo. No class should be able to 1 shot a Class A mech on demand. Good reason infil lost the flak.

[Beemann]

Jagdwyre, on October 26 2012 - 05:49 PM, said:

That is a bit unfair, virtually every ability is situational, even damage increases. However, the big difference between C class mech abilities and both A and B class abilities(at least currently in the beta) is the fact that the C class abilities are the only abilities that actually have a downside when used. One could argue because of this those abilities need to be more significant than the current A and B class abilities, which of course has been implied throughout the thread.

Er... unless we're using the broadest brush ever to paint things as situational, the other abilities are fine. I don't give up mobility to deal extra damage, nor do I give up the ability to see my own health
The turret mode is good when:
You can guarantee that you wont get hit from behind (because no 180)
You know roughly where enemies are, and can basically guarantee that you wont have to fight a group
You can guarantee that you aren't just going to get beat in a range war

These aren't considerations when using a damage boost, the only consideration is "Do I want to do more damage now, or later_"
You don't lose out on -overheat effectiveness because of where you're positioned, and +prot is effective in any fight

D20Face, on October 26 2012 - 06:22 PM, said:

The issue is that most people can't shoot a target that dodges

Which is why turret mode is bad. Not being able to dodge in a fight is a death sentence. The enemy can make good use of cover and burst you down, and you have no way to stop them other than killing them.
In larger-scale battles, multiple people can then gang up on you for an easy kill where they normally couldn't. If you could dodge, you would have lived, and could have taken out many more enemies

[D20Face]

Beemann, on October 26 2012 - 08:07 PM, said:

D20Face, on October 26 2012 - 06:22 PM, said:

The issue is that most people can't shoot a target that dodges

Which is why turret mode is bad. Not being able to dodge in a fight is a death sentence. The enemy can make good use of cover and burst you down, and you have no way to stop them other than killing them.
In larger-scale battles, multiple people can then gang up on you for an easy kill where they normally couldn't. If you could dodge, you would have lived, and could have taken out many more enemies

But I can hit targets that dodge, so while in turret mode I nullify the dodge advantage to the opponent and always have the upper hand against 1-2 targets.

If you can hit a target that dodges then turret mode has far less disadvantages. It goes from "always dying" to "not being able to chase".

35% damage reduction is HUGE. On top of an innately higher health pool it's just ridiculous.

[Beemann]

D20Face, on October 26 2012 - 08:19 PM, said:

But I can hit targets that dodge, so while in turret mode I nullify the dodge advantage to the opponent and always have the upper hand against 1-2 targets.

If you can hit a target that dodges then turret mode has far less disadvantages. It goes from "always dying" to "not being able to chase".

35% damage reduction is HUGE. On top of an innately higher health pool it's just ridiculous.

You're missing the point by a mile
People who normally can't hit you CAN while you're in turret mode. I can go through whole fights and only take a small portion of my health in damage
In turret mode, you're a guaranteed hit, even for the most incompetent players
Heck, I can snipe people with the HEAT cannon at long range without leading as long as they're in turret mode

[AsianJoyKiller]

D20Face, on October 26 2012 - 08:19 PM, said:

Beemann, on October 26 2012 - 08:07 PM, said:

D20Face, on October 26 2012 - 06:22 PM, said:

The issue is that most people can't shoot a target that dodges

Which is why turret mode is bad. Not being able to dodge in a fight is a death sentence. The enemy can make good use of cover and burst you down, and you have no way to stop them other than killing them.
In larger-scale battles, multiple people can then gang up on you for an easy kill where they normally couldn't. If you could dodge, you would have lived, and could have taken out many more enemies

But I can hit targets that dodge, so while in turret mode I nullify the dodge advantage to the opponent and always have the upper hand against 1-2 targets.

If you can hit a target that dodges then turret mode has far less disadvantages. It goes from "always dying" to "not being able to chase".

35% damage reduction is HUGE. On top of an innately higher health pool it's just ridiculous.

Let's say I'm using a HEAT/nade combo on an Infiltrator.
35% damage reduction and your accuracy don't matter jack when I can just pop out of cover for a split second, do massive burst damage, and then go to cover again almost immediately.

Basically, if I utilize cover, you'll lose because I'll hitting you with near 100% accuracy since you're so immobile, and I can easily mitigate most of your damage by only coming out of cover to shoot and there's nothing you can do to pressure me.

Turret-mode is mitigated entirely by an opponent using their brain.

[D20Face]

AsianJoyKiller, on October 26 2012 - 08:30 PM, said:

Let's say I'm using a HEAT/nade combo on an Infiltrator.
35% damage reduction and your accuracy don't matter jack when I can just pop out of cover for a split second, do massive burst damage, and then go to cover again almost immediately.

Basically, if I utilize cover, you'll lose because I'll hitting you with near 100% accuracy since you're so immobile, and I can easily mitigate most of your damage by only coming out of cover to shoot and there's nothing you can do to pressure me.

Turret-mode is mitigated entirely by an opponent using their brain.

Who's to stop me from hitting you when you leave cover_

Should somebody use the dodge mechanic to leap from cover then there's a gigantic window for me to hit them. You cannot dodge twice in a short period. Thanks to radar I'll know where you're coming from after the initial burst.

In numbers terms assuming you deal your first volley without any damage before hitting cover
(155+245) x .65 = 260

After that initial hit we start exchanging blows.
Mid range Flak, 75% bullet hit(if you ambush me at close that's an extra 52 damage).
104+225 = 329

That's with Brawler. The Rocketeer does more damage per volley, has longer range, and has 40% damage resistance.

They'll die in two volleys, I'll die in 4.

They will not kill me before I kill them in a 1v1. Period.

The downside is, as you said, the lack of pressure. Turret mode is a defensive maneuver best suited to open field combat and point defense. In objective based modes it's unmatched in terms of usefulness. In dm it still has its uses if you plan for them.

[Rotaken]

D20Face, on October 26 2012 - 08:19 PM, said:

But I can hit targets that dodge, so while in turret mode I nullify the dodge advantage to the opponent and always have the upper hand against 1-2 targets.

If you can hit a target that dodges then turret mode has far less disadvantages. It goes from "always dying" to "not being able to chase".

35% damage reduction is HUGE. On top of an innately higher health pool it's just ridiculous.

oh boy would i like to see you in field. Just came from a match which i was dominating with a ...berserker. There were good amount of people using rocketeers/brawlers but none of them knew how to use it. They actually didn't even notice my great dodging pattern aka left, right, left, etc. Which iI repeated trough 3 matches. Meeting someone who can handle those big chuncks would be interesting.

[Toryne]

Coot, on October 26 2012 - 07:16 PM, said:

GL + Flak should just not be a possible combo. No class should be able to 1 shot a Class A mech on demand. Good reason infil lost the flak.

Infiltrator never 1 shot anyone with that combo from full health....ever...now flak GL Detonate/HE sure that can happen....but not just the other two alone.

[BeefC4ke]

Out of the 10-12 rounds I've played I have yet to see an A class at the top of the leader boards which is way different than alpha.

That might be because I'm playing B atm though

Edited by BeefC4ke, October 26 2012 - 10:06 PM.

[AsianJoyKiller]

D20Face, on October 26 2012 - 09:23 PM, said:

AsianJoyKiller, on October 26 2012 - 08:30 PM, said:

Let's say I'm using a HEAT/nade combo on an Infiltrator.
35% damage reduction and your accuracy don't matter jack when I can just pop out of cover for a split second, do massive burst damage, and then go to cover again almost immediately.

Basically, if I utilize cover, you'll lose because I'll hitting you with near 100% accuracy since you're so immobile, and I can easily mitigate most of your damage by only coming out of cover to shoot and there's nothing you can do to pressure me.

Turret-mode is mitigated entirely by an opponent using their brain.

Who's to stop me from hitting you when you leave cover_

Should somebody use the dodge mechanic to leap from cover then there's a gigantic window for me to hit them. You cannot dodge twice in a short period. Thanks to radar I'll know where you're coming from after the initial burst.

In numbers terms assuming you deal your first volley without any damage before hitting cover
(155+245) x .65 = 260

After that initial hit we start exchanging blows.
Mid range Flak, 75% bullet hit(if you ambush me at close that's an extra 52 damage).
104+225 = 329

That's with Brawler. The Rocketeer does more damage per volley, has longer range, and has 40% damage resistance.

They'll die in two volleys, I'll die in 4.

They will not kill me before I kill them in a 1v1. Period.

The downside is, as you said, the lack of pressure. Turret mode is a defensive maneuver best suited to open field combat and point defense. In objective based modes it's unmatched in terms of usefulness. In dm it still has its uses if you plan for them.

If you were in turret mode, I wouldn't even have to go from cover to cover.
I can literally peek out of cover, shoot and then dodge back in before you'll be able to react, and even if you do react in time, most of your shot will be hitting the wall I'm peeking out from behind and not me.
Not to mention, if I fuzzy bunny up, I have the option to repair and regain some health to keep chipping away at you.
Or heck, I could just run away, it's not like you'll catch up.
You see, I'm not stupid enough to try and go 1v1 head on with a heavy in turret mode. I will use all available means to circumvent the advantage that turret-mode gives in a straight up fight, and fact is, there's plenty of options.

I'm going to keep disbelieving your claim that turret-mode is good because I have extensive experience in the C-mechs and the fact I have only been killed by turreted mechs about 2-3 times and that is when I first started playing.

Also, I love how you imply that any competent player would actually get hit by a Rocketeer volley, especially at a range.

Edited by AsianJoyKiller, October 26 2012 - 10:35 PM.

[D20Face]

AsianJoyKiller, on October 26 2012 - 10:07 PM, said:

If you were in turret mode, I wouldn't even have to go from cover to cover.
I can literally peek out of cover, shoot and then dodge back in before you'll be able to react, and even if you do react in time, most of your shot will be hitting the wall I'm peeking out from behind and not me.

In order to hit me I have to be able to hit you. Actually, in order to hit me more than half your hitbox needs to be exposed.

Radar blips will give you away.

AsianJoyKiller, on October 26 2012 - 10:07 PM, said:

Not to mention, if I fuzzy bunny up, I have the option to repair and regain some health to keep chipping away at you.

The repair startup time is about the same as the turret mode deactivation time. You'd essentially be letting me catch up to you. The turret mode of the Brawler also heals you over time, so the more time you spend doing that... yeah.

AsianJoyKiller, on October 26 2012 - 10:07 PM, said:

Or heck, I could just run away, it's not like you'll catch up.

It's not like the heavy could catch up while not being a turret.

AsianJoyKiller, on October 26 2012 - 10:07 PM, said:

You see, I'm not stupid enough to try and go 1v1 head on with a heavy in turret mode. I will use all available means to circumvent the advantage that turret-mode gives in a straight up fight, and fact is, there's plenty of options.

And any heavy mech properly using turret mode will know all of those options and make full use of your actions. In team modes it allows you to filter enemies to choke points.

And like I said, objective based modes. It's easy to force an encounter in those modes. You act as though zoning isn't a factor for both sides.

AsianJoyKiller, on October 26 2012 - 10:07 PM, said:

I'm going to keep disbelieving your claim that turret-mode is good because I have extensive experience in the C-mechs and the fact I have only been killed by turreted mechs about 2-3 times and that is when I first started playing.

Anecdotal evidence is best evidence. Especially in a game where most styles of play have barely been explored.

AsianJoyKiller, on October 26 2012 - 10:07 PM, said:

Also, I love how you imply that any competent player would actually get hit by a Rocketeer volley, especially at a range.

Repeater deals 270 burst damage and you can't dodge it at mid range. That's if none of your Hellfire spread(competent players don't lock on with the hellfire, they spray them) hits.

[dsi1]

That feel when people use the agility based mech in the agility based gamemode and say it's OP

[AsianJoyKiller]

D20Face, on October 27 2012 - 12:06 AM, said:

Anecdotal evidence is best evidence. Especially in a game where most styles of play have barely been explored.

And that's the only evidence you really have that say turret mode is great.
You state numbers and statistics, but you don't account for missing shots or any other sort of variables.

I want you to prove to me that turret mode is as good as you say it is, because I have dozens of experiences and opinions on top of my own showing me that turret mode is pants.

[Falanin]

Honestly, as a new beta tester who A: is not super familiar with the control scheme (for example, the snap turn on shift+S gives me fits), and B: is not a terribly good shot anyway; I'm really enjoying the Brawler.  

Specifically, it does really well in the objective-based modes, since it can stand in the open and cap/gather energy and actually be able to take a shot or two before having to retreat.  Also, and obviously... close counts with the flak cannon, which tends to mitigate my terrible shooting.

I'm actually fairly happy with the turret mode's changes.  Being able to see your health (and the battleship progress bar on Siege maps!) would be nice.  

The one thing I really want though, is to get into and out of turret mode faster.  Unlike everything else in the game, it takes a good 5 seconds to set up and break down... which makes it completely impossible to switch modes in the middle of a firefight.  I think you'd see a lot more use out of the turret mode if you weren't locked in place for LONG PERIODS OF TIME while you take the shields off your back.

Edited by Falanin, October 27 2012 - 01:31 AM.

[Beemann]

D20Face, on October 27 2012 - 12:06 AM, said:

In order to hit me I have to be able to hit you. Actually, in order to hit me more than half your hitbox needs to be exposed.

Radar blips will give you away.

Oddly enough, using cover properly allows you to not get hit at all so long as you're depending on burst and not sustained damage
That and there's the fact that I can just wait for my blip to disappear, or use indirect fire like GL and the like assuming you're not just out in the open where I can easily run circles around you

D20Face, on October 27 2012 - 12:06 AM, said:

The repair startup time is about the same as the turret mode deactivation time. You'd essentially be letting me catch up to you. The turret mode of the Brawler also heals you over time, so the more time you spend doing that... yeah.

It's too bad that in repair mode I can corner peek and see you coming out of turret mode eh_ That combined with my faster speed means... well... I win the race for survival

D20Face, on October 27 2012 - 12:06 AM, said:

It's not like the heavy could catch up while not being a turret.

The slowest mech in the game catching up to the fastest with a large lead_ You're right, totally feasible strategy

D20Face, on October 27 2012 - 12:06 AM, said:

And any heavy mech properly using turret mode will know all of those options and make full use of your actions. In team modes it allows you to filter enemies to choke points.

I've yet to find a useful spot in the entire game immune to flanking or ambush from anywhere, so unless you've developed long-range ESP...

D20Face, on October 27 2012 - 12:06 AM, said:

Repeater deals 270 burst damage and you can't dodge it at mid range. That's if none of your Hellfire spread(competent players don't lock on with the hellfire, they spray them) hits.

And spraying hellfire from mid-long range still means you don't hit competent players
Same goes for the repeater for the most part, though I have been hit with the odd 'nade

You still havent addressed the fact that not dodging subjects you to more than 35% more damage due to how easy you are to hit
A first time FPS player can hit a static target

Edited by Beemann, October 27 2012 - 03:01 AM.

[Lithium03]

BeefC4ke, on October 26 2012 - 10:06 PM, said:

Out of the 10-12 rounds I've played I have yet to see an A class at the top of the leader boards which is way different than alpha.

That might be because I'm playing B atm though

In alpha you start with an A, in beta you start with a B. In alpha A's were on top, in beta they're not....coincidence_

[Conquistador]

Immie, on October 26 2012 - 06:33 PM, said:

Berserker (what assault used to be) is weaker then infiltrator

With Assault's current B-class chassis, the fight seems much more balanced. I can't talk about the Alpha, but. Not much else has changed.

Edited by Conquistador, October 27 2012 - 03:05 AM.

[aWk8]

D20Face, on October 26 2012 - 09:23 PM, said:

Mid range Flak, 75% bullet hit

HA; What kind of fantasy world do you live in_