69 replies to this topic

[TheChaffeemancer]

DarkPulse, on November 08 2012 - 04:00 PM, said:

Would be way too loud. It's a rifle, not a cannon. If anything, it should be a sharp crack, not a thundering boom.

Actually, it is a cannon. It's a mech-sized "rifle" but the word "cannon" doesn't really indicate that it has to be a size relative to what it's on.

DarkPulse, on November 08 2012 - 04:00 PM, said:

Unfortunately, that's part of you getting swamped. If you're not using situational awareness and HE/explosions are bringing you down, you're kind of fighting less than optimally.

Funnily enough, HE charges have a distinct bounce sound, and rockets from the rocketeer trigger a warning when you're locked on. Why should these relatively easy to dodge/slow attacks have so much more of a warning then a hitscan weapon that can be shot at long range where people are less likely to notice the shooter.

Edited by TheChaffeemancer, November 08 2012 - 04:36 PM.

[DarkPulse]

Female, on November 08 2012 - 04:14 PM, said:

Unfortunately that isn't it's job. Sharpshooters take out my level 12 armor specced Brawler in 3 shots.

It takes a considerable amount of time for a sharpshooter to take you out (unless you're weakened, which is a whole other story). The Sabot Rifle has a nasty recharge delay. For them to "easily" do this, it takes at least 10-15 seconds, so it's not like they can just snap their fingers and you're toast.

Do you pay attention where you're being shot from at all_ I almost never have snipers picking me off like that.

TheChaffeemancer, on November 08 2012 - 04:35 PM, said:

Actually, it is a cannon. It's a mech-sized "rifle" but the word "cannon" doesn't really indicate that it has to be a size relative to what it's on.

True enough, I guess. But if you can hear the damn thing across half the map, the usefulness of Sharpshooters will be pretty much nil, since everyone will know they're around and start immediately scanning for them.

It doesn't need to be noticeable to the point where you can tell when they're around every time they fire. Their weakness is that they're not able to hold their own on 1v1 combat (unless they're good), so if you eliminate that element there's almost no point to playing them.

TheChaffeemancer, on November 08 2012 - 04:35 PM, said:

Funnily enough, HE charges have a distinct bounce sound, and rockets from the rocketeer trigger a warning when you're locked on. Why should these relatively easy to dodge/slow attacks have so much more of a warning then a hitscan weapon that can be shot at long range where people are less likely to notice the shooter.

Simple: They're a lot closer to you, and not traveling at speeds over the speed of sound.

I know it's poor to bring real-life examples into a videogame, but in real life, a sniper bullet travels faster than the sound from it does. Oftentimes you won't even hear it before it hits unless they're very close by. Even then, though, what Female is basically asking is not only for an auditory clue where they are, but for a visual clue, on the radar. While I could see the sound as long as it's reasonable, if we add in both_ You might as well paint them in day-glo colors, because everyone will just gang on the snipers - which is their weakness.

[TheChaffeemancer]

DarkPulse, on November 08 2012 - 04:50 PM, said:

Do you pay attention where you're being shot from at all_ I almost never have snipers picking me off like that.

Please avoid the ad hominem (in case you don't realize it, comments like this are coming across as a "lrn2play" type)

And no, Kiwi does not die to snipers often like that. It still puts more burden on the attention of the person getting shot at then Kiwi thinks it should.

DarkPulse, on November 08 2012 - 04:50 PM, said:

True enough, I guess. But if you can hear the damn thing across half the map, the usefulness of Sharpshooters will be pretty much nil, since everyone will know they're around and start immediately scanning for them.

The sniper in TF2 has a report like that, you can clearly hear the sound of it firing. Even with that limitation, he still is quite effective when in the hands of someone not incompetent.

DarkPulse, on November 08 2012 - 04:50 PM, said:

It doesn't need to be noticeable to the point where you can tell when they're around every time they fire.

No one said it has to be that loud, that's actually why Kiwi's preference was for a unique sound when the shot landed nearby. It lets you know that someone fired at you with a sabot, but not pinpoint where the shot came from.

DarkPulse, on November 08 2012 - 04:50 PM, said:

but for a visual clue, on the radar. While I could see the sound as long as it's reasonable, if we add in both_ You might as well paint them in day-glo colors, because everyone will just gang on the snipers - which is their weakness.

Gotta say no to the radar warning as well, that is making it too easy.

Edited by TheChaffeemancer, November 08 2012 - 05:05 PM.

[DarkPulse]

TheChaffeemancer, on November 08 2012 - 05:04 PM, said:

Please avoid the ad hominem (in case you don't realize it, comments like this are coming across as a "lrn2play" type)

And no, Kiwi does not die to snipers often like that. It still puts more burden on the attention of the person getting shot at then Kiwi thinks it should.

My point is, you do kind of have to be not paying attention for a sniper to pick you off if you're fresh. If you're weak, it's bound to happen, but realistically, I can't remember the last time that a sniper really gave me a hard time.

Though this could be because I'm probably a better sniper.

As I said, I could see with maybe giving it a noise, but when you go to steps like "make them visible on the radar," then it's making them useless just for shooting.

TheChaffeemancer, on November 08 2012 - 05:04 PM, said:

The sniper in TF2 has a report like that, you can clearly hear the sound of it firing. Even with that limitation, he still is quite effective when in the hands of someone not incompetent.

Maps in TF2 are way bigger and have way more sniping points. Hawken's a lot simpler and smaller in comparison.

TheChaffeemancer, on November 08 2012 - 05:04 PM, said:

No one said it has to be that loud, that's actually why Kiwi's preference was for a unique sound when the shot landed nearby. It lets you know that someone fired at you with a sabot, but not pinpoint where the shot came from.

Well, if that's the case, then yes, it's an obvious bullet ricochet or something.

[Metalo]

any hawken mech would crash your tanks and wouldnt even notice it

[Pursang]

If you're just standing around waiting to be hit, then I'm sorry to say but you're just doing it wrong. With its increased damage ability, the Sharpshooter has a lot of front-end damage that can easily be mitigated by taking cover for a few seconds. One of the developers on this forum (it may have been Scapes) mentioned that the Sharpshooter actually produces some of the least DPS of any mech currently in the game (I'm paraphrasing).

What to take away from this: Don't rely on your armor to hold up in combat. Be mobile, be flexible. Get right up into the grill of that Sharpshooter and I can almost guarantee you'll win almost every single time.

Edited by Pursang, November 08 2012 - 09:20 PM.

[Cyclonus]

Geez, and I thought 595 armor was good.

[CakeBandit]

I'm feeling that the sharpshooter is a little over-powered myself.

I roll assault most of the time, and I found that even in close quarters, in a head to head DPS-off, the Sharpshooter comes out the victor. I don't know what my opponent had, but I have 10 ranks put into the defensive skill tree and another 7 in mobility. I'm running the Assault rifle and the TOW.

I think that it's a lack of risk on the Sharpshooter's part though.

They have a few things I don't.

• Range.
  
  
• More damage per hit
  
  
• Less heat per second it seems.
  
  
• A damage booster on top of that lack of heat and extra punch
  
  
• No risk of damaging themselves with their biggest gun.

I was playing against a really good pilot in a deathmatch environment as well, but some of the all out slugfests we got into felt pretty lopsided. I pretty well had to ambush him at close range and land a direct hit with my TOW right at the start of an engagement or death was guaranteed.

Doable, but really freakin' hard. I'm going to play more, but I'm keeping my attention on this issue. Right now the sharpshooter in capable hands seems a little too dangerous. It seems to be able to deal damage on par with the infiltrator without any of the uncertainty of a grenade launcher or a heat cannon.

If I were to make a change, I'd suggest changing out one of the sharpshooter's weapons for something that isn't hitscan. Even that weirdfuzz canister launcher thingy would feel better to tangle with.

Edited by CakeBandit, November 09 2012 - 01:08 AM.

[DarkPulse]

CakeBandit, on November 09 2012 - 01:08 AM, said:

I'm feeling that the sharpshooter is a little over-powered myself.

I roll assault most of the time, and I found that even in close quarters, in a head to head DPS-off, the Sharpshooter comes out the victor. I don't know what my opponent had, but I have 10 ranks put into the defensive skill tree and another 7 in mobility. I'm running the Assault rifle and the TOW.

I think that it's a lack of risk on the Sharpshooter's part though.

They have a few things I don't.

• Range.
  
  
• More damage per hit
  
  
• Less heat per second it seems.
  
  
• A damage booster on top of that lack of heat and extra punch
  
  
• No risk of damaging themselves with their biggest gun.

I was playing against a really good pilot in a deathmatch environment as well, but some of the all out slugfests we got into felt pretty lopsided. I pretty well had to ambush him at close range and land a direct hit with my TOW right at the start of an engagement or death was guaranteed.

Doable, but really freakin' hard. I'm going to play more, but I'm keeping my attention on this issue. Right now the sharpshooter in capable hands seems a little too dangerous. It seems to be able to deal damage on par with the infiltrator without any of the uncertainty of a grenade launcher or a heat cannon.

If I were to make a change, I'd suggest changing out one of the sharpshooter's weapons for something that isn't hitscan. Even that weirdfuzz canister launcher thingy would feel better to tangle with.

Actually, one of the devs went on record as saying that of all the classes, Sharpshooter has lowest DPS. They do, however, have very high burst damage - they can't consistently deal hurt, but when they can shoot, if they hit, PAIN!

Sniper Weapons tend to be moderate in terms of heat, but as an Assault, your ability is to pretty much ignore heat for several seconds. Are you making use of it_

Damage boost, see above. Sharpshooters are very high in burst damage, but their sustained DPS is pretty much dead last. The damage boost from their ability is actually rather small - in fact, more often than not, I never use it!

Also, I almost never damage myself with the TOW missile. In fact, I don't think I've ever legitimately suicided in this game (not counting where falling damage has killed me; apparently the game doesn't either).

Edited by DarkPulse, November 09 2012 - 01:13 AM.

[NotKjell]

Um... at least from the old stats slug+sabot was around 96 dps with poor heat generation while tow+AR was around 146 with better heat management. Stats wise you shouldn't lose a shoot-out, you might have just been missing more than you realize.

[JustJake]

Are we having the "Sharpshooter is OP" conversation again_ My friend Beemann outlined why the Sharpshooter is well-balanced in this CB1 thread: http://community.pla...__20#entry80561

Key take-away points:

• You'll always get destroyed by people better than you.
  
• The Sharpshooter is not as OP as you think it is.
  
• Nothing is OP (except maybe a HEAT Infiltrator)
  
• AR + TOW is the highest starting damage output overall.

Once you learn to adapt to sharpshooters (hint: use cover then bum-rush us, we hate that) they cease to be a huge threat.

Obligatory troll screenshot:

[killyg]

DarkPulse, on November 08 2012 - 04:50 PM, said:

I know it's poor to bring real-life examples into a videogame, but in real life, a sniper bullet travels faster than the sound from it does. Oftentimes you won't even hear it before it hits unless they're very close by.

this is not how super-sonic projectiles work at all, it's pure hollywood bullshit.

stand downrange from any rifle that shoots super sonic rounds, you'll hear the sonic boom arrive at the same time as the projectile, followed later by the muzzle blast.

[PiVoR]

funny, another topic deriled into SS op, how it can be op if it got lowest dps in the game_ ;o

[Dreizehn]

If you're standing out in the open, letting a sharpshooter peg you 3 times in a row - you are doing it wrong. Considering how clusterfrumped up the maps are, its easy to dash into cover, even as a Brawler. And if you spot them_ Just fling a TOW at them. Then they will dash for cover, while you're free to get closer or disengage. Either way, they can't get a second shot and you can go repair yourself or something.

Last few games of Missile Assault as a Brawler, I haven't died once. Played right, they can hammer through most classes if you manage to force an attrition battle.

[AsianJoyKiller]

CakeBandit, on November 09 2012 - 01:08 AM, said:

It seems to be able to deal damage on par with the infiltrator without any of the uncertainty of a grenade launcher or a heat cannon.

What uncertainty_

[Juodvarnis]

PiVoR, on November 09 2012 - 05:45 AM, said:

funny, another topic deriled into SS op, how it can be op if it got lowest dps in the game_ ;o

The same way, 90% of the tribes: ascend community call Sentinels overpowered, there you have to shoot people flying at 200-300kph. You also have to shoot them 3 times with a sniper rifle that takes a couple of seconds scoped in to do full damage.
The main problem in my opinion is that it's hitscan. If i was in charge, I'd probably try to make the Sabot rifle into a fast projectile.

[defekt]

Juodvarnis, on November 09 2012 - 06:14 AM, said:

PiVoR, on November 09 2012 - 05:45 AM, said:

funny, another topic deriled into SS op, how it can be op if it got lowest dps in the game_ ;o

The main problem in my opinion is that it's hitscan. If i was in charge, I'd probably try to make the Sabot rifle into a fast projectile.

Exactly, its weapons are all hitscan and it’s all ‘no risk’ (cf. self splash), front-loaded damage; DPS is almost irrelevant given the arena within which these weapons excel.  (Calculate the DPS at range, factoring in things like bullet spread, dodge chance [projectile speed], weapon range [lob], and the ‘lowest dps in the game’ counterargument falls flat on its face; hitscan weapons with almost no spread retain near 100% of their DPS at any range whereas almost nothing else does.)  All you need is a good frame rate and the ability to aim straight (really not difficult with a hitscan weapon) to make the Sabot/Slug pair work well for you.  They're by no means easy weapons to master but they certainly reward practice more than most other weapon combos do and they become particularly forgiving when mounted on a B-Class chassis.

Even if you accept the above, the weapons aren’t really the problem; if anything it’s map design and the chassis that these weapons can be mounted on that contribute to the lion’s share of OP complaints.

Oh, to be able to talk about the Alpha.  

[RedVan]

I've never had a problem taking out a sharpshooter with an assault...

[Dreizehn]

Hitscan doesn't mean 100% hit. Sure if the player is really that good. But it can be very hard to draw a bead on a light that's circle strafing you. Or people super far away dashing everywhere.

In a game where its all about rapid burst movement in a variety of directions, making the Sabot/Slug not-hitscan is probably too much of a nerf.

[Juodvarnis]

Dreizehn, on November 09 2012 - 06:53 AM, said:

Hitscan doesn't mean 100% hit. Sure if the player is really that good. But it can be very hard to draw a bead on a light that's circle strafing you. Or people super far away dashing everywhere.

In a game where its all about rapid burst movement in a variety of directions, making the Sabot/Slug not-hitscan is probably too much of a nerf.

If they were made projectile, they could be buffed in damage or rof to counteract the "nerf" as you called it.