140 replies to this topic

[Timber_Wolf]

I'm not going to lie, I hate the idea of having weight classes for guns.
Each weapon+secondary+weight class+ability needs to be weighed separately.  Now, most C class mechs, since you can escape from them, most weapon combinations are going to be perfectly fine.  Other combinations are going to have to be more restrictive for lighter classes, of course, and some weapons might not be suited for A class mechs and there can be all sorts of ways to balance it.

What about a berserker with just the vulcan and no secondary_  No TOW to chunk your health means he's spending at least twice the time with the vulcan.  What about B class with the vulcan and hellfire_  Would that be terribly unbalanced_  The flak cannon, HEAT cannon, sabot rifle, and vulcan are probably all the most likely candidates to not deserve a place on an A class, each for their own reasons.  Flak cannon and vulcan do enough damage that combined with the ability to escape makes it terrifying.  The HEAT cannon allows an A class to pop in and out of cover and never expose themselves.  The sabot rifle lets an A class play indefinite keepaway and stay in their preferred range.  I'm not starting debate on these, but you get my drift.

Weapon restriction based solely on class is silly, there's WAY more to it than that.

EDIT:  As others have said, there is much, MUCH more to weapon balance than DPS.  This is 1000% true.  Most people, though, aren't claiming it's JUST the DPS.  It's the combination of accuracy, DPS, heat efficiency, and total damage dealt.  At first, I didn't think it was imba either, as you'll see earlier in this thread, but after reviewing the numbers, it's pretty clear that it is.

EDIT 2:  On class restriction.  If you restrict the best guns to C class, there's really not a reason to not play C class.  Mobility, sure, but if you chew anything that gets near you apart with a hitscan weapon, then who needs mobility, really_  I spent the first half of this beta as a rocketeer, and I can say that dodging grenades, TOW missiles, or hellfire rockets, while harder than as a berserker, is far, far from impossible.  To beat you, every other weight class would have to resort to hit and run tactics, which, honestly, really isn't that much fun.  This in turn means the only real way is to play as a sharpshooter, to stay away from them.  Sort of a doom n' gloom scenario, I know, and maybe a little exaggerated, but not implausible.  A class gets the mobility, C class gets the health, B class is in the middle, weapon availability needs to be determined on a case-to-case basis.  And honestly, if you feel that only one class should get a weapon, it probably means that that weapon is a bit over the top.

EDIT 3:  (I'm so sorry, last one I promise)  What about slight changes in the different weight classes guns_  C class vulcan stays as it is, B class get's an approximately 10% drop in power, and the A class gets 10% power drop and more heating issues.  That could work, too.  But, I stand by the weapon needing an accuracy drop overall.

Edited by Timber_Wolf, November 13 2012 - 05:13 PM.

[Zeshi]

DarkPulse, on November 13 2012 - 04:31 PM, said:

Zeshi, on November 13 2012 - 03:37 PM, said:

1. I'm actually a pretty good pilot and can beat (some) Vulcan users using poke tactics. The issue is that those poke tactics work just the same against an AR or smg user, and those weapons are undeniably weaker than the vulcan.

But that's how you beat high-ROF weapons, period - by not standing there and getting shot. The fact that it's Vulcan, AR, or SMC has nothing to do with this - the simple fact is they live or die by Line-of-Sight, and if you can keep that minimized, you can beat them as long as you got adequate cover and play smart. On the other hand, if you rush them, then yes you're going to get your butt kicked.

This is why, by the way, I'm all for removing it from A-Class and B-Class. There the maneuverability of the A-Class and the heat-killing abilities of Assault absolutely combine to make it OP. But in both those cases, the simpler solution is to simply not let it be equipped on those classes (...Hmm, there's an idea, devs. Make it so that guns, items, and internals have classes of mechs they can be equipped on...) rather than just nerfing the Vulcan. It's fine as it is on the C-Class because you expect the C-Class to be slow, powerful, and hulking in general, but a speedier mech (especially an A-Class) can give it serious trouble.

Zeshi, on November 13 2012 - 03:37 PM, said:

2. I've been simply comparing the AR and vulcan, not bringing class into it. You know other classes besides the assault use the AR as well right_

Sure, but those classes don't have the heat-killing ability the Assault does. They're not designed for sustained fire, like the Assault is, and that's what the Vulcan-using C-Class is most akin to.

Zeshi, on November 13 2012 - 03:37 PM, said:

3. For the last time, the Vulcan generates more heat but it has even greater heat effencincy than both ther AR or smg. If it was to be a "high damage high heat weapon" it would need to be something like generate max heat in 6 seconds, but deal out 700 damage in those 6 seconds.   Currently its not a trade off. You get better heat effencicy and much better dps.

Not going to deny it does better DPS (that's its job, after all) but there's still the fact that it assumes perfect hits - which, in practice, do not happen. Not every shot is going to land and any smart player begins evading like crazy if they hear a Vulcan spin-up. In both of these cases, the AR and the SMC is much more forgiving, since they generate less heat, and unlike the Vulcan, effectively have no spin-up time. (While they do have WarmUpTimes listed in the files, there's also an explicit comment next to both - "This is a special case, the weapon starts firing right away.") A Vulcan user who can't keep the crosshair on the enemy is in way more trouble than a AR or SMC user, and if the weapon ever does fully spin down, it's a half-second delay before they can spin it back up and begin firing.

The Vulcan has better heat efficiency with perfect aim, but humans aren't perfect. Even really good shots probably only make 70-80% hit.

Zeshi, on November 13 2012 - 03:37 PM, said:

4. "Nerfing a weapon should never be the answer" . Ok, so i guess if their was a, lets say, flamethrower secondary weapon in the game that did 400 dps and generated heat on the opponent you would just tell people to deal with it and "learn to counter it_"

I actually thought about making such a weapon (a heat-generating weapon) as a suggestion the other day, to be honest.

400 DPS, however, would be incredibly overkill, so if you're going to use such an example, use one that makes sense. My idea was actually more of a support weapon - it did no damage, but it increased the opponent's heat.

Plus, a flamethrower would have a range limitation, so yes, countering it would be as simple as getting out of range.

Zeshi, on November 13 2012 - 03:37 PM, said:

5. Adjusting how good/bad weapons are is not how you "wreck balance". Quite the opposite in fact, its how you achieve it.

But adjusting them to the point where there's no reason to get it is, indeed, how you wreck balance.

Put it this way. Let's say you tone down the Vulcan It loses three points of damage, and gains 0.015 seconds of refire delay - still faster than AR, and still better in heat.

• Assault Rifle: ROF 0.135 seconds, 1.08 heat per bullet, 12 damage per bullet (~7.4 shots/second, 8 heat/second, 88.88... damage/second). 1,111.11... damage in 12.5 seconds.
  
• Point-D Vulcan (with tweak): ROF 0.120 seconds, 1.05 heat per bullet, 11 damage per bullet (~8.3 shots/second, 8.75 heat/second, 91.66... damage/second). 1100 damage in 12 seconds.

How would you ever justify spending 3750 HP on it if you've got a class that can already use the AR and get nearly the same results_ The answer is, you wouldn't - not when the AR does nearly the exact same performance. Comparatively, the Vulcan spits out more bullets and does very slightly more damage with the nerf still - but it's nerfed enough that it's worthless in comparsion, and if they had the choice between the Vulcan or the AR, players who are smart would pick the AR because the Vulcan is way more noticeable while doing nearly the same overall damage.

It then literally becomes a weapon almost nobody uses (a fate that's already befallen the SA Hawkins).

Zeshi, on November 13 2012 - 03:37 PM, said:

6. The AR will not do steadier damage than the vulcan, just significantly slower damage. They both are just point and track.

It does do steadier damage because, ultimately, it's much more forgiving of missed shots than the Vulcan is. Vulcan users have to factor in a spin-up (which is necessary for any sort of real cool-down) and they also have to make much more of their hits count as the AR does have a superior spread, with a relatively predictable spread increase.

Zeshi, on November 13 2012 - 03:37 PM, said:

7. The brick wall comment is the result of you continuing to argue in spite of the fact that the Vulcan does more damage, in a shorter amount of time, and with a higher heat efficiency, than the AR or smg while having no significant disadvantage/counter that the AR and smg do not have.

Much more noticeable, has to be purchased, is eventually going to be limited to the slowest, bulkiest, hardest-hitting mechs... players are not going to be happy if they spend 3750 Hawken Points on something that's ultimately a "slightly-better-than-regular AR."

If people spend 3750 HP on a gun, they're going to expect something that can do some serious firepower. Flak, HEAT Cannon, and so on all pack some wallop - those are the sorts of weapons you can buy. Too much nerfing of the Vulcan will lower it to the point that it's basically a slightly (and not statistically significant) better AR and it essentially becomes a waste of Hawken Points.

Zeshi, on November 13 2012 - 03:37 PM, said:

8. I have never once claimed it is "game breakingly bad" (even though if the Vulcan is left completely as is i will not play in the final product. which is a shame because i am quite a fan)

Your own words just betrayed you. If you didn't think it wasn't game-breakingly bad, why will you refuse to play the game because of its mere presence, without a tweak_

The thing is you have to balance a weapon against other weapons in its class (which is the heavy weapons class, NOT automatic guns), you have to balance the effort taken to obtain it (sidegrade or not, it does need to differentiate itself), and the player needs to feel like it isn't the exact same gun with a different skin. If this is restricted to C-Class, you're already going to see a lot less of it, and it's a distinct risk/reward tradeoff - it's loud, it's obvious, and it should tell you to be ready to be on your toes.

Ergo, while it's devastating, it's also not un-counterable, and it's not going to turn you into a magical stomping machine if you don't have an idea of what you're doing (merely reaching Level 20 is no sign of skill). So ultimately, I feel it's fine as-is, because believe me, does using this thing ever make you a target against someone who knows what they're doing.

Last thing im going to say(because were both just starting to state the same points over and over), my words did not betray me. I meant for it to come out that way, i hadn't said it before but i came to the conclusion while writing.

Edit- when CB3 hits i guess we'll see who the devs agree with.

Edited by Zeshi, November 13 2012 - 05:22 PM.

[Katejina]

16v16 and one person gets 20+ kills with the vulcan every game u know its op.

[DM30]

This back and forth is getting tiresome. Can't we settle on a middle ground_

As it is, I think we can all agree that the Vulcan needs some adjustment (whether that be stats, or simply what chassis it's available on). Myself, I believe that it should be a combination of both. Firstly, some minor stats tweaks so that the so-called 'downsides' of the weapon are actually that because at the moment, they aren't really. A Vulcan may overheat way faster, but at the rate it deals damage it doesn't matter. By the time a target gets under cover (if at all) it has still done multiple times the damage that any other rapid-fire weapon can. Yes, that is it's purpose, but it swings the balance of the game tremendously in the Vulcan's favour, which from a gameplay standpoint I would argue isn't favourable. Not to the extent that it's doing now. The arguments in favour of the Vulcan are saying that the way to beat it is to evade and hide, which is all well and good in theory, but in game this gives the Vulcan mech too much of an ability to control the battlefield.

At the same time, I do not at all believe that it's role as a high damage at high speed weapon should be eliminated completely. It would just seem more reasonable, however, to have it be configured so that it's a specialized weapon for that role, not an all-around better alternative to other rapid-fire weapons. By the numbers it may not fare as well for longer engagements, but let's face it: The game is designed for fast-paced fighting. The vast majority of engagements aren't long enough for this to come into play. A lot of fights happen before someone has time to fully recover health from the last fight, at least from what I've seen and especially in free-for-alls, and with how quickly the Vulcan does damage that gives them a huge, huge edge.

It needs to be toned down. Not a lot by any means, and definitely not removed from the game entirely, but enough that it works as a specialty weapon for bursts of damage that doesn't completely dominate the dynamic of a battlefield. I agree with what has been posted before in this discussion: No single weapon, level-20 reward or not, should force everyone else on the field to adjust to it, at least to the degree the Vulcan does presently.

Conversely, we could leave the Vulcan as it is but get rid of the level-20 restriction, and do the same for the other bonus weapons as well. Have it so that mechs can buy them sooner, and if they don't then they can have it for free when they hit 20 (or for a significantly discounted price). That would at least level the field more, instead of having 20's holding so much power over everyone else.

[LordofNosgoth]

I just got out of a game with a player using a Vulcan. And dominating. Hard core. He only killed me once (I was playing sharpshooter, with Slug Rifle) while I killed him - or got the assist - for nearly every one of his 27 deaths. So that we're clear: His kills were 134. On a 32 player server in Siege.

Stop.

Think about it.

Do the math.

The weapon is overpowered in it's current form, end of story. I am - on my very best day - an above average player with great aim (IMHO). Yay for me. But when one guy rolls around a map scoring not one, but 7 kills in a row, before having to retreat because his weapon overheated, it's time to take a second look at the weapon he is using. It may just be he's skilled. But then we have this significant wall of posts from players who - aside from Dark Pulse (him generally being the only exception, thereby proving the rule) - all seem to agree that, in it's current form, the Vulcan is overpowered.

On a C-Class mech, it's acceptable; maybe slightly OP given it's apparent range (I got killed at sniper ranges by the damned thing!) but not outside the realm of being countered.

Place that bad boy on an Assault class or - God in Heaven Help Us! - a Berserker A-Class and you will watch the fury of Hell itself unfold. If the server we'd been on had been the standard 12 player server, that one player would've dominated so completely that killing him would've been out of the question entirely and winning merely a fool's dream. As it was, winning was impossible due to the respawn delay and his ability to be able to continually take down between 3 and 7 of our teammates before I could kill him. (Which I greatly relished doing, given the weapon he was using on such an already poorly balanced class). When that player briefly switched to Assault Rifle upon my polite request_ Well, let's say that particular venture didn't last long. Winning is - as has often been noted - infinitely more fun than losing. Arguments of skill aside.

@Dark Pulse: Your arguments have really only served a solitary purpose: Continually proving the points we've all made numerous times and reinforcing the general consensus that the weapon itself either needs a severe nerf or needs removing from lighter classes altogether. All of your counter arguments only serve to show the community at large that you're arguing to keep a weapon you clearly know is OP because you'd feel jilted if someone took something you grinded so hard to get.

So let me be clear: We aren't saying it should go away, only that it should be better balanced. If that means nerfing it so no A or B class mech can single-handedly dominate every game when attatched to a player of average skill, then so be it. If that means limiting it to larger, slower classes who are going to be made walking targets the moment other players hear it spin up_ Again, so be it. Balance in a game is every bit as important as the game having replay value, being challenging, being fair (anti-cheat, please) and retaining the core elements that make it unique.

If nerfing the Vulcan somehow took away the core element of what Hawken is as a game, then I would be among the loudest to voice my outcry against it. But it isn't what the game is based around and nerfing it won't destroy any core elements to the gameplay.

That having been said, I rest my case on this matter: Vulcan, in it's current form is OP and needs some reworking or removing. Choose wisely.

EDIT: I nearly forgot to add this tidbit:

@Dark Pulse: You clearly do not have any understanding of the concept of attrition or, more specifically, a "War of Attrition" which is what skill-based games are. I'll take a brief moment out of my day to clarify and enlighten you:

War of Attrition - Attrition warfare is a military strategy in which a belligerent side attempts to win a war by wearing down its enemy to the point of collapse through continuous losses in personnel, materials and morale.

Historically, this is done by making the enemy sacrifice no less than 2 for every 1 that the belligerent side sacrifices. By your own logic, Dark Pulse, this would mean that the Vulcan - in it's current form - allows a solitary player to single-handedly wage a "War of Attrition" thus carrying his teammates to victory while the enemy team can do nothing except play the hand they've been forcibly dealt.

^^ This, I predict, is enough to single-handedly kill any hopes of a lasting and growing community. It should be fairly obvious by now the gun is insanely powerful... to the point of automatically demoralizing any player who hasn't had the time to endlessly grind to level 20 in the what_ 8 total days of CBE1 & 2_ Now imagine, if you can, everyone who doesn't get sick of the BS and quit, having it. What need or use would they have of playing with any other weapon; ever_ ^^

Edited by LordofNosgoth, November 14 2012 - 12:57 AM.

[DarkPulse]

LordofNosgoth, on November 14 2012 - 12:38 AM, said:

@Dark Pulse: Your arguments have really only served a solitary purpose: Continually proving the points we've all made numerous times and reinforcing the general consensus that the weapon itself either needs a severe nerf or needs removing from lighter classes altogether. All of your counter arguments only serve to show the community at large that you're arguing to keep a weapon you clearly know is OP because you'd feel jilted if someone took something you grinded so hard to get.

So let me be clear: We aren't saying it should go away, only that it should be better balanced. If that means nerfing it so no A or B class mech can single-handedly dominate every game when attatched to a player of average skill, then so be it. If that means limiting it to larger, slower classes who are going to be made walking targets the moment other players hear it spin up_ Again, so be it. Balance in a game is every bit as important as the game having replay value, being challenging, being fair (anti-cheat, please) and retaining the core elements that make it unique.

If nerfing the Vulcan somehow took away the core element of what Hawken is as a game, then I would be among the loudest to voice my outcry against it. But it isn't what the game is based around and nerfing it won't destroy any core elements to the gameplay.

That having been said, I rest my case on this matter: Vulcan, in it's current form is OP and needs some reworking or removing. Choose wisely.

I've been quite clear in my points that I absolutely agree it should be removed from A-Class and B-Class mechs. I won't deny that and I agree it has no place on there. (If you read my posts, I'm sure I say this once or twice.)

I feel that, on the C-Class, it's pretty much fine, owing to their much lower mobility, being a big, meaty target, and so on. I even said I could see an increase in the spin-up delay, but the one thing we want to make sure of is that it's not so nerfed it's basically another AR. Tone down the damage too much and you will get exactly that - as I pointed out, a 3-point damage nerf actually makes it weaker than the AR in everything but ROF (by one hundredth of a second) and in Heat Generation, but the faster ROF means it spits out more, but weaker, bullets.

ROF is going to be the key thing for any sort of minigun, but how do you balance that along with not making it seem pointless_ While some people will use it just becuase it sounds like someone's ripping ass on a microphone, there are the players who seek out things like DPS, and in that sense it'd be laughable.

Even if it does get nerfed, it won't be the end of the world for me. I'd just switch back to the Flak Cannon, which does nearly the same amount of damage albeit in a more burstlike form. Nobody seems to complain about that (which I find strange, considering that ultimately they have nearly the same DPS... ROF 1.2, 11.1 heat per shot, 13 x 12 = 156 max damage per shot, ~0.833... shots/second, 9.25 heat/second, 130 damage/second, 1,171.17 damage in 9 seconds) so I find complaints over the Vulcan on a C-Class very frivolous.

But I 100% agree A-Classes (Looking at you, BuDeKai...) and B-Classes should not have access to it.

[AsianJoyKiller]

DarkPulse, on November 14 2012 - 01:14 AM, said:

LordofNosgoth, on November 14 2012 - 12:38 AM, said:

@Dark Pulse: Your arguments have really only served a solitary purpose: Continually proving the points we've all made numerous times and reinforcing the general consensus that the weapon itself either needs a severe nerf or needs removing from lighter classes altogether. All of your counter arguments only serve to show the community at large that you're arguing to keep a weapon you clearly know is OP because you'd feel jilted if someone took something you grinded so hard to get.

So let me be clear: We aren't saying it should go away, only that it should be better balanced. If that means nerfing it so no A or B class mech can single-handedly dominate every game when attatched to a player of average skill, then so be it. If that means limiting it to larger, slower classes who are going to be made walking targets the moment other players hear it spin up_ Again, so be it. Balance in a game is every bit as important as the game having replay value, being challenging, being fair (anti-cheat, please) and retaining the core elements that make it unique.

If nerfing the Vulcan somehow took away the core element of what Hawken is as a game, then I would be among the loudest to voice my outcry against it. But it isn't what the game is based around and nerfing it won't destroy any core elements to the gameplay.

That having been said, I rest my case on this matter: Vulcan, in it's current form is OP and needs some reworking or removing. Choose wisely.

I've been quite clear in my points that I absolutely agree it should be removed from A-Class and B-Class mechs. I won't deny that and I agree it has no place on there. (If you read my posts, I'm sure I say this once or twice.)

I feel that, on the C-Class, it's pretty much fine, owing to their much lower mobility, being a big, meaty target, and so on. I even said I could see an increase in the spin-up delay, but the one thing we want to make sure of is that it's not so nerfed it's basically another AR. Tone down the damage too much and you will get exactly that - as I pointed out, a 3-point damage nerf actually makes it weaker than the AR in everything but ROF (by one hundredth of a second) and in Heat Generation, but the faster ROF means it spits out more, but weaker, bullets.

ROF is going to be the key thing for any sort of minigun, but how do you balance that along with not making it seem pointless_ While some people will use it just becuase it sounds like someone's ripping ass on a microphone, there are the players who seek out things like DPS, and in that sense it'd be laughable.

Even if it does get nerfed, it won't be the end of the world for me. I'd just switch back to the Flak Cannon, which does nearly the same amount of damage albeit in a more burstlike form. Nobody seems to complain about that (which I find strange, considering that ultimately they have nearly the same DPS... ROF 1.2, 11.1 heat per shot, 13 x 12 = 156 max damage per shot, ~0.833... shots/second, 9.25 heat/second, 130 damage/second, 1,171.17 damage in 9 seconds) so I find complaints over the Vulcan on a C-Class very frivolous.

But I 100% agree A-Classes (Looking at you, BuDeKai...) and B-Classes should not have access to it.

All of my yes. Take it.

[AeroA10]

It's not at all op, just a higher level weapon that requires a higher level of defensive play and it's easy to use. Deal with it.

[defekt]

AeroA10, on November 14 2012 - 10:38 AM, said:

It's not at all op, just a higher level weapon that requires a higher level of defensive play and it's easy to use. Deal with it.

I remember when my first posts in game fora used to be this indignant.  Ah, thems were the days... *reminisce*

[DM30]

AeroA10, on November 14 2012 - 10:38 AM, said:

It's not at all op, just a higher level weapon that requires a higher level of defensive play and it's easy to use. Deal with it.

The clear bias of this comment aside, I'll take one more stab at this argument before I fall into silence on this thread, since I'm repeating myself.

1-A higher level, more powerful weapon: Fine. Vulcan users worked to get it, so there should be at least a little bit of 'reward' to it.

2-Requires a higher level of defensive play to counter: Acceptable. I agree that players should need to adapt to whatever weapons they come up against. If I'm fighting a sharpshooter, I'll charge in for a close-range fight. If I run into a brawler with a flak cannon, I'll start dodging around buildings taking pot shots with my TOW missile to wear him down, then go in for the kill. I can envision doing similar for a Vulcan.

Problem area - Allowing players to dominate a match through sheer firepower with no significant degree of skill involved ("It's easy to use"): No! No single weapon type should let people do this. Each kind of weapon needs to fall into some kind of specialized category, not provide an all-around means to frag people.

Let me put it this way: In every single match I have played where a Vulcan was present (on my team or not, or just in free for all), that player has topped the scoreboard in both kills and XP, either for their team or overall, with zero exceptions. Zero. Regardless of the player's ability level, they come out on top because of the weapon they're using. This. Is. Not. Right. Regardless of whatever arguments that may be made about the Vulcan's weaknesses, that doesn't change the results in the actual game. When a situation like this occurs, there is a balance issue. I don't care what anyone says to the contrary. The leaderboards speak for themselves.

So, again, I will posit that the Vulcan needs some small adjustments to decrease its victory-boosting effect (tweaking, not nerfing), so that a Vulcan user has to rely on skill to win games with it, not have easy kills handed to them, just as with any other weapon.

[D20Face]

DM30, on November 14 2012 - 01:37 PM, said:

Let me put it this way: In every single match I have played where a Vulcan was present (on my team or not, or just in free for all), that player has topped the scoreboard in both kills and XP, either for their team or overall, with zero exceptions. Zero. Regardless of the player's ability level, they come out on top because of the weapon they're using. This. Is. Not. Right. Regardless of whatever arguments that may be made about the Vulcan's weaknesses, that doesn't change the results in the actual game. When a situation like this occurs, there is a balance issue. I don't care what anyone says to the contrary. The leaderboards speak for themselves.

I almost always top the board and I don't use it.

[Deu]

IMO -The problem is trying to fight in a closed space, like how most fights usually go down, against a Vulcan. It's really as simple as out ranging it. I can do the same thing with the AR I do with the Vulcan but with the AR I get a bit more range and accuracy (obviously a given nerds.) I find the AR more ideal for some maps than the Vulcan, like Sahara. Just happens that the maps released, right now, are better suited for the Vulcan.-

When using my Vulcan the #1 fail mistake I've noticed is people trying to fight me face to face even though they can hear that roar of the Vulcan. You wonder what the repercussions will be_!

I feel like an exploiter far more when I use the flaking Brawler.

Edited by Deu, November 14 2012 - 08:10 PM.

[nonsiccus]

D20Face, on November 14 2012 - 07:28 PM, said:

I almost always top the board and I don't use it.

I can say the same - in most games I am topping by a good amount. That being said, I always have a tough time when a Vulcan shows up. I am a substantially better-than-average pilot (to be incredibly blunt), yet I will suffer a massive performance drop around Vulcans. The amount of damage output they have, coupled with the speed and ability to heat-dump on an Assault chasis made for an incredibly potent combination that was impossible to beat when piloted by even a mediocre player. When facing someone who's actually good, you really stand no chance outside of plinking with a SS or something equally long range.

Hitscan, mostly ignoring heat, enormous damage on a quick frame. These factors combine to make for one very deadly weapon that kills very easily when used by even unskilled players. It gets even more pronounced at the hands of someone who can maneuver.

[145154151164145]

I think the best thing to do with this gun would be to simply increase the spread slightly along with its complete removal from A class mechs. Make its effective range mildly higher than the flak.  If it is to stay on a B class mech, it cannot be assault (maybe they will revive bruiser). Only class that I can actually say its a real problem being used by is A because of their mobility.  It is completely pointless to even engage a skilled player in an A class them even from across the map because they will either: a. find their way over to you and turn you into small metal bits or b. just run away and find closer quarry (COWARD!! lol).  As big headed as this sounds I think I am VERY good at this game, but when someone in a berserker pulls out the vulcan I simply cannot go toe to toe on even ground with them.  Even if im playing as a SS on sahara, a good player can dodge between buildings and then even lay shields as temp cover to get anywhere they need.  The best I can do against a skilled berserker with a vulcan is probably 1 kill to 3 deaths, or even less if the server is full and he comes around shootin me in the back.  Assault classes aren't nearly as hard to kill as a berserker because of their lower mobility but combined with their active ability lesser players that don't know how to dodge or take cover get completely steam rolled.  C class actually seems fine with the vulcan I don't find playing against them a problem at all.

Edited by 145154151164145, November 14 2012 - 11:52 PM.

[BuDeKai]

DarkPulse, on November 14 2012 - 01:14 AM, said:

But I 100% agree A-Classes (Looking at you, BuDeKai...) and B-Classes should not have access to it.

hey! thats me!

[DM30]

D20Face, on November 14 2012 - 07:28 PM, said:

DM30, on November 14 2012 - 01:37 PM, said:

Let me put it this way: In every single match I have played where a Vulcan was present (on my team or not, or just in free for all), that player has topped the scoreboard in both kills and XP, either for their team or overall, with zero exceptions. Zero. Regardless of the player's ability level, they come out on top because of the weapon they're using. This. Is. Not. Right. Regardless of whatever arguments that may be made about the Vulcan's weaknesses, that doesn't change the results in the actual game. When a situation like this occurs, there is a balance issue. I don't care what anyone says to the contrary. The leaderboards speak for themselves.

I almost always top the board and I don't use it.

That's wonderful. That makes you a skillful player in my eyes, which is absolutely fine and good. It's when it's the weapon and not the skill that gets players to that position that I feel there's a problem. If you earned that top spot consistently, then all's good and if you beat me getting there I will readily congratulate you.

Edited by DM30, November 15 2012 - 06:29 AM.

[3Jane]

DM30, on November 15 2012 - 05:34 AM, said:

D20Face, on November 14 2012 - 07:28 PM, said:

DM30, on November 14 2012 - 01:37 PM, said:

Let me put it this way: In every single match I have played where a Vulcan was present (on my team or not, or just in free for all), that player has topped the scoreboard in both kills and XP, either for their team or overall, with zero exceptions. Zero. Regardless of the player's ability level, they come out on top because of the weapon they're using. This. Is. Not. Right. Regardless of whatever arguments that may be made about the Vulcan's weaknesses, that doesn't change the results in the actual game. When a situation like this occurs, there is a balance issue. I don't care what anyone says to the contrary. The leaderboards speak for themselves.

I almost always top the board and I don't use it.

That's wonderful. That makes you a skillful player in my eyes, which is absolutely fine and good. It's when it's the weapon and not the skill that gets players to that position that I feel there's a problem. If you earned that top spot consistently, then all's good and if you beat me getting there I will readily congratulate you.

Haha yeah the point is that as soon as they equip a vulcan they are doing so much better.
Not that you can't be good with other weapons, just that its WAY easier.

[TheChaffeemancer]

Kiwi does have to say, he didn't like the Vulcan all that much on the Brawler, even if it was strong. It felt kind of unsatisfying once Kiwi got past the "BRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRT" of it since it was "Did you keep crosshair on mech_" "Yes= You win! No=Enemy lost half his health and ran away." The Flak Gun just suited Kiwi so much better. Kiwi doesn't really think he's that good of a pilot, but he is sneaky.

[RedVan]

IMO there is no reason to have level 20 weapons in the game at all.  Being level 20, people are going to assume they are special (and probably should have some benefit because "you have arrived").  People will outright stop using other weapons when they can use a better one.  Why do we need that at all_

[DarkPulse]

BuDeKai, on November 15 2012 - 12:16 AM, said:

hey! thats me!

Yes, I made an example using you as to why it should be off A-Class. It's way too powerful on that chassis (neither of the other weapons are guaranteed damage unlike the Vulcan) and they're way too maneuverable.

The combination of the two makes for something that can hit you like crazy but you have a very difficult time hitting it. Dealing with an A-Class is hard enough; the Vulcan makes it downright annoying.