140 replies to this topic

[AsianJoyKiller]

LordofNosgoth, on November 12 2012 - 11:37 PM, said:

textwall ragepost

Just an FYI to all of you are reading this, LordofNosgoth has posted this after I spent a match wrecking with the HEAT cannon.
Both Beeman and [ADH]Shadiradio can tell you this is a fact.

In the match, Nosgoth kindly told me to "fuzzy bunny off with the HEAT cannon" and seeing that he was upset about it, I decided to be myself, and do a little trolling. I love playing mindgames in matches. It makes people do funny things, like overextend themselves or ragequit. One way or another, it can give me an advantage.

So I'm pretty sure I threw in a "umad" somewhere, and I know I'm the one he's referring to with this:

LordofNosgoth, on November 12 2012 - 11:37 PM, said:

"Want me to pwn you with a different class/weapon/character/etc._" <- One more fine example of an individual who belongs underneath a bridge, extorting tolls from unwary passerby. Often spoken by the person who, in their infinite arrogance, believes that you - the 'n00b' - cannot possibly beat them, irregardless of situation because they are "pros" and are clearly superior to you in every way. Spoken clear as a bell here.

My response: "You're welcome to try. But at some point, you're not going to like the outcome. No one wins forever."

If you're going to call someone out, be a man and use their name.

And by the way, it's not arrogant to think that you "the noob" (which I never called you) can't beat me, because when I go up against you, I come out on top. It's just the way things are.

Besides that, my point was, it wasn't the HEAT that was OP, it was the player.
After playing with you and against you in at least a dozen matches, I know that the reason you die to my HEAT consistently is because of the way you play, not because the weapon is overpowered. You are very predictable, your positioning isn't all that great, and judging by the videos you've posted, your accuracy is average at best.

On top of all this nonsense, you don't even articulate why you think these weapons are overpowered. You just claim it is, and that's good enough for you.



P.S.
By the way, this whole thing with your responses to trolls being morally superior, witty and more mature is silly because:
1) You don't act like that in the heat of the moment. Your actual replies were just restating your previous rage, with more incredulity.
2) The whole concept of creating a post where you call out people for being immature and then act like you're the mature one is immature in itself.

Edited by AsianJoyKiller, November 13 2012 - 01:32 AM.

[NotKjell]

I would just like to note that asianjoykiller is by all means mortal in his infiltrator.

The vulcan is a bit strong, slight DPS drop OR preferably increased startup time (like .75 sec over .5) would be nice. That, and Vulcan/HEAT cannon don't belong on an A-class.

And that's pretty much it. There's always going to be a lot of complaining about players better than them, or players capable of using teamwork in a team game (looking at you nosgoth. God you're verbose). Even the vulcan isn't SO bad in it's current form, it's just that most newer players aren't used to having to use counter-strategies against something. The vulcan forces you to. It's meant to dominate mid to short range fights out in the open, which is where most people are used to mindlessly fighting. You can use hit-and-run tactics to prey on the vulcan's startup time. If you nerf it so that other guns can compete with it in it's strength, suddenly the vulcan will be fuzzy bunny against players who can abuse it's weakness.

Edited by NotKjell, November 13 2012 - 01:35 AM.

[LordofNosgoth]

AsianJoyKiller, on November 13 2012 - 01:07 AM, said:

I'm better than you. Keep reading to see why. I've got better aim, I'm a better player and blah blah blah blah...

I see where you're going there. So, lets cover a few things, shall we_

1) I didn't react in anger, but only out of surprise that Heat Cannon - 1 shot - seemed to take 450+ health instantly killing me. The first time this happened_ No reaction. The second time_ Still, no reaction. The 20~ish-th time, when in-game with you_ Yep. Definitely. And my reaction was "Heat Cannon needs to GTFO". It was not a commentary about the player using it. I'm sorry you interpreted it that way. In-game text is very limited. My Bad.

2) You should check my other gameplay vids. Generally speaking, my aim is actually pretty close to superb (though some days are definitely better than others). There are those with better aim, it's true; but I can usually go toe-to-toe with them any day of the week and hold my own. If you're actually a better player, then good for you. Would you like a cookie_ Oh, wait, you've sunk more hours into the game than most others here, so you've gotten your cookies already. Anyway... Since I don't recall calling anyone by any dubious names, just that the weapon either needs to go or see some much needed balance changes, you're other comments are beyond unwarranted.

3) I've recorded every match I've ever played in Hawken and reviewed the ones eremarked with your name (yes, if I recognize a player from the forums, I eremark the video). I not only usually do better than you, but when against you, we tend to stand on equal footing. A few times you've gotten the upperhand. Good for you.

4) The only times I've seen you be "OP" as a player are the few times you've resorted to using weapons that EVERYONE ELSE agrees is pretty overpowered. You must feel awesome.

5) I wasn't logging "complaints" - not as of yet, anyway - but feedback. While I admit it's nice to see a troll admitting to being a troll; my posting feedback of any kind is no less valid than any opinion you might have.

6) I shouldn't have a need to justify why I think or agree that a weapon/class is overpowered if it's already been eloquently argued and stated by others.

7) I have never - not now or will I ever - fault a team for working as a team and succeeding because they do so. However, when one high-level player is all it takes to carry an entire team - which has been me on more than one occasion - some balance changes might be in order. In TDM, it's understandable - no fixed spawn rate, unlimited kills, no other objectives to accomplish besides killing - but when this happens in Siege or in Missile, a closer look at the current balancing is in order.

8) AJK, your interpretation of events is wildly hilarious. You seem to think I'm calling you out - and just you - but you're sadly mistaken. I was actually making a commentary of chats I've heard in-game and seen on-screen on more than one occasion. Since our last encounter was the most recent, no doubt you - in your infinite wisdom - thought it was just about you. But it's not. Just a social commentary in general. Though, you have reinforced my points better than I could've dreamed of or hoped for by bringing your righteous indignation to bear. Awesome.

9) My main problem with Heat/Vulcan is primarily the classes they are on at the moment. And giving Berserker some of the highest DPS'ing weapons in the game on the lightest, fastest chassis in the game is also beyond ridiculous. Light mechs get light weapons. Brawlers with Vulcans are annoying, but generally no match.

10) I didn't create a post about maturity while/before/after acting immature. Again, your interpretation of events is wildly hilarious. And so that we're all clear: No human being alive is at their best or most mature if they're frustrated. That having been said, I take out my frustration on my games - and only on my games, as it should be - and not here in the forums.

11) If in anyway, anyone else here has misinterpreted my posts as AJK has, then you have my sincerest of apologies. I would also like to apologize for trying to exemplify proper manners (at least in the forums, if no where else), using the English language as well as my typing skills allow and anything else you've taken offense to. Mayhap, in the future, I'll just denigrate into the trollish behavior you're all so accustomed to reading from everyone else.

And yes, AJK is more than mortal in every mech he/she plays. Prior to this last trollish post of his/her, I enjoyed playing with him/her/whatever and was actually looking forward to doing a friendly frag video (seeing as how I've gotten more than a few kills against him/her, and he/she posted a thread encouraging such) and kind of hoped it would be a friendly back and forth. Which, in my experience, tends to generate good will amongst other players and gives all something to strive to and for. Since that's obviously not going to be the case, I'll have to decide on something else. As for the videos_ For now, at least, I think I'll just archive them. The troll has been fed enough; no need to fan the flames further.

And yes, I can be verbose. I'll take that as a compliment.

FYI: Anyone else here former USMC_ Any combat experience_ Training_ I've plenty of each. With real weapons. It's part of the reason I play games now; helps me sleep at nights. I see the faces less. And, it keeps me calmer during the days. For those of you that games are just games, believe me when I say: I envy you. Truly.

Edited by LordofNosgoth, November 13 2012 - 02:48 AM.

[defekt]

AJK & LoN: Take your e-peens somewhere else please.  Oh, and grow up a bit.

Dragging this ego-mash back on topic...

The Vulcan feels like a natural weapon for the C-class, and the various gods know that the C-class is in much need of some lovin'.  Chances are strong that the weapon will be nerfed a bit, and perhaps its availability adjusted to suit.  There is a strong argument for giving the least manoeuvrable mechs the highest ROF hitscan weapons as a counterbalancing measure; after all, escaping from a C-class is fairly easy for a B and almost assured in an A.

[D20Face]

I still don't have those range numbers.

The vulcan DPS could very well be half of what the numbers say at ranges further than humping distance. It could never lose enough damage to be below the other MGs in terms of DPS.

Without all the numbers these DPS charts are pointless.

And I'm still of the opinion that the Flak is a better weapon then the Vulcan. It's just not on the A class mechs for some odd reason

EDIT

Timber_Wolf, on November 12 2012 - 10:24 PM, said:

the hawkins... exists.

Made my day.

Edited by D20Face, November 13 2012 - 07:22 AM.

[Timber_Wolf]

I seem to recall that they all had the same effective range. But can't find where or proof. :/

The flak cannon's the main rival to the vulcan in DPS, and probably the best in close combat.

Glad I could make your day, D20Face!

[D20Face]

Timber_Wolf, on November 13 2012 - 07:35 AM, said:

I seem to recall that they all had the same effective range. But can't find where or proof. :/

The flak cannon's the main rival to the vulcan in DPS, and probably the best in close combat.

Glad I could make your day, D20Face!

I remember the start falloff numbers, and both Flak and Vulcan had fairly close effective ranges(Flak had lower DPS and slightly lower range, but burst more than made up for it). The others had similar ranges and the Hawkins was always just for some reason all around slightly worse.

The numbers I really want are the end falloff ranges of the Vulcan, where it does the minimum damage and what range that is at, and the start falloff ranges of the other weapons.

If the Vulcan truly is better I think the same solution as the flak would be fine. I just don't know if it's truly better or not without real numbers. Any good sharpshooter will tell you it's possible to keep a target at your preferred range to beat out the close quarters rabble.

Edited by D20Face, November 13 2012 - 07:41 AM.

[The_Silencer]

I'm gonna be straight... a Vulcan takes 3 seconds to kill a level 13 Assault mech.  1-2-3.. if there's another guy supporting the Vulcan's guy then.. in 1 second_

Noobies are going to flip with that.. in case many of them are not already flipping rightnow.

P.S. Not everything must be good, ideal, nice and good news. Although.. In AG/ME we trust.

[Cottonmouth]

[DarkPulse]

The_Silencer, on November 13 2012 - 08:20 AM, said:

I'm gonna be straight... a Vulcan takes 3 seconds to kill a level 13 Assault mech.  1-2-3.. if there's another guy supporting the Vulcan's guy then.. in 1 second_

Noobies are going to flip with that.. in case many of them are not already flipping rightnow.

P.S. Not everything must be good, ideal, nice and good news. Although.. In AG/ME we trust.

No it doesn't. I doesn't do nearly enough DPS for that.

B Class = 675 armor, Vulcan @ 133.33 DPS = 5 seconds. Two would bring it down to 2 1/2 seconds. It's powerful, but it's not THAT powerful.

For those asking for ranges, I don't see any sort of thing showing range falloff in the files. I just see a maximum effective range, which is the same for all weapons (50,000 UU). The spread does increase as the weapon's being fired, but I'm not sure how the Vulcan's spread increases, as while the other two had clear entries for "Go up this much spread per shot," the Vulcan seemingly had that missing.

[The_Silencer]

Numbers, numbers... how not. Although I'd say.. get in the game and post first hand experiences (too).

[TheChaffeemancer]

Kiwi has to admit, he got the Vulcan and played with it for a bit. He found it to be really powerful, especially against living things. Though he just didn't like it. Didn't have the satisfying thump of the Hawkins or the flak gun. He'll have to give the HEAT cannon for the Brawler a go later, but he has a feeling that it will be a terrible fit.

Please add more autocannons.

[DarkPulse]

The_Silencer, on November 13 2012 - 09:23 AM, said:

Numbers, numbers... how not. Although I'd say.. get in the game and post first hand experiences (too).

I do have one, so I know from first-hand experience how it is.

I also know how it can be defeated, and it has been by skilled players.

[Zeshi]

DarkPulse, on November 13 2012 - 09:36 AM, said:

The_Silencer, on November 13 2012 - 09:23 AM, said:

Numbers, numbers... how not. Although I'd say.. get in the game and post first hand experiences (too).

I do have one, so I know from first-hand experience how it is.

I also know how it can be defeated, and it has been by skilled players.

So people who cant consistently beat the primary weapon that does the most damage, in the shortest amount of time, with the highest heat efficiency, who main disadvantage is a start up time that is easily compensated for, just aren't skilled_ Okay....

Edited by Zeshi, November 13 2012 - 10:01 AM.

[Subdivision]

TheChaffeemancer, on November 13 2012 - 09:28 AM, said:

Kiwi has to admit, he got the Vulcan and played with it for a bit. He found it to be really powerful, especially against living things. Though he just didn't like it. Didn't have the satisfying thump of the Hawkins or the flak gun. He'll have to give the HEAT cannon for the Brawler a go later, but he has a feeling that it will be a terrible fit.

Please add more autocannons.

I alternate between the vulcan and flak. I prefer the flak as it's terribly satisfying watching the health bar disappear. I use the vulcan when I'm lazy or feel I'm in need of a leg up. As a brawler I only need to get a TOW hit and couple hits with a flak to take down most smaller mechs. Vulcan just makes things easy and is actually a really boring weapon to use for me. Aim, click........... Flak is much more rewarding, especially those tiny mechs who think they can dodge it in the open. You can try and circle me but I will kill you

[DarkPulse]

Zeshi, on November 13 2012 - 09:56 AM, said:

So people who cant consistently beat the primary weapon that does the most damage, in the shortest amount of time, with the highest heat efficiency, who main disadvantage is a start up time that is easily compensated for, just aren't skilled_ Okay....

If they try to fight it like a normal gun_ Yes.

The Vulcan isn't a normal gun. It's a gun whose purpose is to chew you up and do lots of direct damage. In a one-on-one gunfight, it's designed to win. The only weapon that should ever go toe-to-toe with it is another Vulcan.

Now, what other counters are there_

• Hellfire Missiles. Lock on, fire, retreat. C-Classes are slow as heck, they'll eat damage from at least some of these. Do this a few times and you force it back.
  
• Snipers. Sabot + Slug at the same instant = 265 damage. They're slow, big targets, which are a Sniper's dream. If you get two snipers out, you can do over 500 damage to this thing in a few seconds, and that will definitely make it pull back.
  
• HEAT Cannon, EOC Repeater, Grenade Launcher. These are more along the lines of annoyance tactics. Regardless, they pack a punch, and they'll also draw the Vulcan's attention - which can set him up for further attacks from his blind sides.
  
• Rocket or MG Turrets. Momentary distractions, but distractions nonetheless.

The key to beating a Vulcan is to stick and move. Zip in, take your shot, and get the hell out of there. If you charge in like so many players do, then yes you're not skilled, because this is what the gun is excellent at countering.

Instead of crying about "It's OP!" people should be learning how to counter its strengths. It can be done, I've had it done to me, and I've done it to other Vulcan players while having inferior weaponry (right Spiderz_) so there's really no excuse just because you want to think that you should be able to ignore a few bullets while you charge in. I feel that, if I have this gun, I have the ability to send you right back to the respawn queue to punish non-tactical play, and until you learn how to counter it, I'll do it over and over and over again.

You do not toe-to-toe with a Vulcan and win. You win the war by attrition, by hitting him and getting away so he can't hit you. Lather, rinse, and repeat, and you eventually have a dead Vulcan user.

Or just keep rushing him and he'll rack up the kills. Your choice.

Edited by DarkPulse, November 13 2012 - 10:21 AM.

[Skylead]

Zeshi, on November 13 2012 - 09:56 AM, said:

So people who cant consistently beat the primary weapon that does the most damage, in the shortest amount of time, with the highest heat efficiency, who main disadvantage is a start up time that is easily compensated for, just aren't skilled_ Okay....

Kind of yea, it's not that hard to beat (plus it makes a distinct sound so you can plan for it) and right now it is just chain killing new players who haven't nailed down dynamic fights yet. It will appear much less op once people get better at the game.

[AsianJoyKiller]

LordofNosgoth, on November 13 2012 - 02:41 AM, said:

7) I have never - not now or will I ever - fault a team for working as a team and succeeding because they do so. However, when one high-level player is all it takes to carry an entire team - which has been me on more than one occasion - some balance changes might be in order. In TDM, it's understandable - no fixed spawn rate, unlimited kills, no other objectives to accomplish besides killing - but when this happens in Siege or in Missile, a closer look at the current balancing is in order.

Just an FYI, Beeman and I are almost always going to be working together. We're about the same skill level, and who does better depends on whether we're playing east or west coast.

EDIT:

LordofNosgoth, on November 13 2012 - 02:41 AM, said:

Prior to this last trollish post of his/her, I enjoyed playing with him/her/whatever and was actually looking forward to doing a friendly frag video (seeing as how I've gotten more than a few kills against him/her, and he/she posted a thread encouraging such) and kind of hoped it would be a friendly back and forth. Which, in my experience, tends to generate good will amongst other players and gives all something to strive to and for. Since that's obviously not going to be the case, I'll have to decide on something else. As for the videos_ For now, at least, I think I'll just archive them. The troll has been fed enough; no need to fan the flames further.

Go ahead and make it, I'd still like to see it.

Also, I'd like to apologize.
My mother's funeral was this weekend, so I've been a little... on edge as of recent. At 3am, or whenever I posted, I should probably think a little more before I post.

You know, I just saw you post almost verbatim one of the things I said, found it condescending and reacted.

Not my best moment, and, like I said, I'm sorry.

Edited by AsianJoyKiller, November 13 2012 - 10:32 AM.

[Zeshi]

DarkPulse, on November 13 2012 - 10:11 AM, said:

Zeshi, on November 13 2012 - 09:56 AM, said:

So people who cant consistently beat the primary weapon that does the most damage, in the shortest amount of time, with the highest heat efficiency, who main disadvantage is a start up time that is easily compensated for, just aren't skilled_ Okay....

If they try to fight it like a normal gun_ Yes.

The Vulcan isn't a normal gun. It's a gun whose purpose is to chew you up and do lots of direct damage. In a one-on-one gunfight, it's designed to win. The only weapon that should ever go toe-to-toe with it is another Vulcan.

Now, what other counters are there_

• Hellfire Missiles. Lock on, fire, retreat. C-Classes are slow as heck, they'll eat damage from at least some of these. Do this a few times and you force it back.
  
• Snipers. Sabot + Slug at the same instant = 265 damage. They're slow, big targets, which are a Sniper's dream. If you get two snipers out, you can do over 500 damage to this thing in a few seconds, and that will definitely make it pull back.
  
• HEAT Cannon, EOC Repeater, Grenade Launcher. These are more along the lines of annoyance tactics. Regardless, they pack a punch, and they'll also draw the Vulcan's attention - which can set him up for further attacks from his blind sides.
  
• Rocket or MG Turrets. Momentary distractions, but distractions nonetheless.

The key to beating a Vulcan is to stick and move. Zip in, take your shot, and get the hell out of there. If you charge in like so many players do, then yes you're not skilled, because this is what the gun is excellent at countering.

Instead of crying about "It's OP!" people should be learning how to counter its strengths. It can be done, I've had it done to me, and I've done it to other Vulcan players while having inferior weaponry (right Spiderz_) so there's really no excuse just because you want to think that you should be able to ignore a few bullets while you charge in. I feel that, if I have this gun, I have the ability to send you right back to the respawn queue to punish non-tactical play, and until you learn how to counter it, I'll do it over and over and over again.

You do not toe-to-toe with a Vulcan and win. You win the war by attrition, by hitting him and getting away so he can't hit you. Lather, rinse, and repeat, and you eventually have a dead Vulcan user.

Or just keep rushing him and he'll rack up the kills. Your choice.

Everything you have described here are not specific counters to the Vulcan, they are counters to machine-gun type weaponry. And its already been stated (proved i would say) that the Vulcan is simply better than the AR or smg, meaning that it is too powerful.

If your going to make a weapon that punishes players that hard for "charging in" as you say (even though it is able to do much more that), it needs to have significant disadvantages like the flak cannon does. Currently its only disadvange is a start up time which barely even matters because you can just pre-charge it. (this could be mitigated by it generating heat during spin up.)

P.S. You suggested that 2 snipers be used to counter one primary weapon. That is just silly.
Also, Vulcan users are currently anything but slow and big.

Edit- EVERYTHING can be countered in one way or another, when something becomes op is when you have to game plan for a specific weapon significantly more than other weapons of a similar type.

Edit part two- The majority of the people in this thread are not "crying its op", they are giving valid reasons like 50% higher dps than the smg, greater heat efficiency, etc.

Edit part three (i realize this is getting ridiculous)-  In alot of your posts you suggest things like that the way to defeat a vulcan is to do things to distract it and hit it from its blind slide.  You should not need two people to kill a vulcan user. If a vulcan user necessitates two people to neutralize it then something is wrong.

Edited by Zeshi, November 13 2012 - 10:54 AM.

[Conquistador]

(The following is a commentary on A class mechs and balancing in lieu of the Vulcan. Feel free to skip this if you're interested in b class or c class Mechs.)

Am I the only one here who thinks that the flak cannon (or a certain indescribable weaker variant from ages past) seems to sit on the Berserker a lot better in terms of play style as opposed to its current alternate primary choices_ This, of course, includes the Vulcan (and the SMG, which needs to be rethought but that's a topic for another day).

Having mained assault rifle infiltrator in CB1 and assault rifle berserker in CB2, the current alternate weapons for both Mechs are extremely Odd (though I do understand the logic behind giving the infiltrator heat, which lets the infiltrator hit long range opponents). I've been forced to use the Vulcan primary on the berserker to break stalemates, so admittedly it's pretty powerful. Perhaps too powerful. I'd rather see a shotgun-type flak unlocked on the berserker as an alternate primary, particularly in berserker vs infiltrator matchups.

So let's talk about balance for a moment: the TOW is a swiss-army-knife of a weapon. I'm sure that was the intent behind it. Does decent damage, travels in a relatively straight line, decent  long range with accuracy falloff over time, predictable projectile velocity. And that's fine, but it pales in comparison to the infiltrator grenade at medium to close range, because the grenade has optimum performance exceeding that of the Tow in those engagements due to more DPS, faster projectile travel, and more utilitarian choices (no line of sight, arched fire and rebounds). Infiltrators with heat also nullify what should be the berserker's only advantage, which is ranged combat. The heat acts like a faster travelling tow in many respects with faster reload time. The damage increasing special ability does very little to supplement this incredibly skewed matchup: a heat infiltrator simply has MORE options to do damage than a berserker with the assault rifle. This is one extremely outclassed pairing.

Now, back to the Vulcan: I hate having to refer to a broken primary weapon to even the score, but playing with the assault rifle against a competent infiltrator player is a one way ticket to horrible death. The balance of available weapons is just so broken that fighting fire with more fire seems the only option. The Vulcan is a terrible, terrible solution to this problem, however. I am all for removing it, with the express suggestion that it should be replaced with the flak cannon. Flak Berserker vs heat grenadier would be a fairly balanced matchup, I think, with tow countering heat and flak countering grenade at the long and close combat scenarios, respectively.

In short: remove the Vulcan from the berserker, but replace it with the flak cannon. And leave the infiltrator and its weapons  as is, it's a nice Mech to base balancing on, and other Mechs should balance toward it (as opposed to nerfing the infiltrator).

I probably should make a topic about this.

Edited by Conquistador, November 13 2012 - 11:52 AM.