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Oh that Vulcan..


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Poll: Oh Vulcan.. oh... (142 member(s) have cast votes)

A "bit too" overpowered_...

  1. Yes. (103 votes [72.54%])

    Percentage of vote: 72.54%

  2. No. (33 votes [23.24%])

    Percentage of vote: 23.24%

  3. I'm on it... (6 votes [4.23%])

    Percentage of vote: 4.23%

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#41 Zeshi

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Posted November 12 2012 - 10:20 AM

People who voted no just like being op i guess
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#42 DarkPulse

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Posted November 12 2012 - 10:24 AM

View PostZeshi, on November 12 2012 - 10:20 AM, said:

People who voted no just like being op i guess
Right, and the people who voted for Obama are socialists.
Reason as my minor ego, and opposite my desire to be a murderer.
A coagulated, gloomy thinking in the intelligence, as my major ego.
An antinomian theorem of behaviorism, in all of my thinkings.
It's what we call "The Inversion Impulse."

#43 Zeshi

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Posted November 12 2012 - 10:31 AM

View PostDarkPulse, on November 12 2012 - 10:24 AM, said:

View PostZeshi, on November 12 2012 - 10:20 AM, said:

People who voted no just like being op i guess
Right, and the people who voted for Obama are socialists.

While i get you point, i still say most of the people who voted no are likely avid Vulcan users who don't want to see it taken away from their preferred class or nerfed in general.

Edit- And before you go all rage mode, i don't think its THAT op. It just needs to be taken off assaults and have its heat gen increased a bit. And maybe have its spread increased a bit but that could be pushing it. Right now we have a situation where anyone using a smg or an AR would trade it in for a vulcan in a heart beat, thats not good imo

Edited by Zeshi, November 12 2012 - 10:35 AM.

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#44 The_Silencer

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Posted November 12 2012 - 10:33 AM

Again, got my arse kicked well via Vulcan.. definitely a pain in the ass that Vulcan... I think this weapon should go to Heavies and in turret mode only.

Edited by The_Silencer, November 12 2012 - 10:34 AM.

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#45 Zeshi

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Posted November 12 2012 - 10:42 AM

View PostDarkPulse, on November 11 2012 - 07:51 PM, said:

View PostNIGHTRAV3N, on November 11 2012 - 06:41 PM, said:

Rollin with a couple Brawlers equipped with Vulcans can get pretty ridiculous on Siege matches.
You saying you'd rather I didn't_ :P

It's not OP, I feel. While it does do very good damage, here's the downsides.
  • EXTREMELY noticeable. While you may wonder what the hell hit you sometimes, you'll never wonder who's got a Vulcan. You'll always know.

  • It does generate massive amounts of heat. To down a C-Class I'm usually nearly maxing out heat on my Brawler - and this is with heatsinks equipped. I still manage to overheat quite a bit, and the cooldown for that is nasty. On the upside, hitting me with an EMP is basically a free enforced cool-off. :P

  • Their power is greatly mitigated in multi-man situations. 2-3 players working together will be able to take the single Vulcan user out. It's a big reason I lost a Siege match last night that, on paper, we should've absolutely won.
That said, it's definitely OP on the Assault (due to the heat ignore ability) and on the Infiltrator (due to their speed). Keep them as-is but basically limit it to C-Class. It's a heavy gun so that's natural.

1 and 3 are not even weaknesses imo.

1. If you are actually paying attention, you may not know exactly what hit you, but you should know what direction its coming from and if its bullets or explosives. The vulcans sound is a very minor disadvantage at best. Its saying "im a huge threat and need to be dealt with." But why is the player a huge threat_ Because Vulcan is op.

3. Anythings power is mitigated in multi man situations. The reason why vulcan users need to focused first is because they are more powerful compared to any other weapon (except for a flak in a only cqc situation)
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#46 DarkPulse

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Posted November 12 2012 - 11:00 AM

View PostZeshi, on November 12 2012 - 10:42 AM, said:

1 and 3 are not even weaknesses imo.

1. If you are actually paying attention, you may not know exactly what hit you, but you should know what direction its coming from and if its bullets or explosives. The vulcans sound is a very minor disadvantage at best. Its saying "im a huge threat and need to be dealt with." But why is the player a huge threat_ Because Vulcan is op.
I disagree. The Vulcan is designed really to be point defense and heavy punching. They're basically designed to bust sieges and to put up an intimidating wall of defense. There are still ways to deal with them - Sharpshooters, Rocketeers, and if you want someone a little insane, maybe even an Infiltrator. Or another Vulcan, of course.

There's ways to take them down, you just do not want to give them a fight they're designed to win - which is close range. You want to get behind cover fast, and plan a strategy. 1v1, you're toast, which is kind of the whole point.

View PostZeshi, on November 12 2012 - 10:42 AM, said:

3. Anythings power is mitigated in multi man situations. The reason why vulcan users need to focused first is because they are more powerful compared to any other weapon (except for a flak in a only cqc situation)
Sure, but I feel other weapons are less mitigated. The whole point is that you focus on the guy with unsurpassable firepower. No Sniper is ever going to cause that much damage. A Rocketeer might if he somehow lands tons of his rockets and provides generous EOC Repeater shots. But you can use both psychology and tactics against a Vulcan user to chop them down. The last thing you want to do is give them clear lines of sight and proximity. In short, counter them like a Sniper, except that with the sniper you don't want distance either. I have killed players using the Vulcan even when I wasn't using one - move like hell, predict, and keep your fuzzy bumpkin out of their sights. EMP also greatly helps, although as I said, it does give the Vulcan user free cool-off.

For what it's worth, I agree it should be restricted to C-Class only. It's way too powerful on A-Class due to their sheer movement and dodge capabilities, and it's overpowered on the Assault since they gain a free 15 seconds of use every 60 seconds. The latter is apparently a mistake, but who knows about the former.

And yeah, it is a "straight-up upgrade," but the slower ROF on Assault Rifle and Submachine Cannon make it more forgiving in terms of heat:
  • Assault Rifle: ROF 0.135 seconds, 1.08 heat per bullet, 12 damage per bullet (~7.4 shots/second, 8 heat/second, 88.88... damage/second)
  • Submachine Cannon: ROF 0.125 seconds, 0.8125 heat per bullet, 10 damage per bullet (8 shots/second, 6.5 heat/second, 80 damage/second
  • Vulcan: ROF 0.105 seconds, 1.05 heat per bullet, 14 damage per bullet (~9.5 shots/second, 10 heat/second, 133.33... damage/second)
Every mech has a overheat cooldown of 8.25 seconds if they max their heat, which I unfortunately cannot find the max value of, but I think it's fairly safe to assume 100. In terms of damage, this means:
  • Assault Rifle: 1,111.11... in 12.5 seconds.
  • Submachine Cannon: 1,230.76 in ~15.38 seconds.
  • Vulcan can deal 1,333 damage in 10 seconds.
So in short, the Vulcan deals it out quicker and a bit harder... but not by too much. It's much stronger in shorter bursts, but the reduced heat of the other two swing the favor towards them if the battle drags out and the Vulcan user can't hit. The Assault Rifle will deal the weakest damage of the three, but it also dishes its damage out a few seconds quicker than the Submachine Cannon - and let's not forget the Assault can activate his ability and ignore all that. The Submachine Cannon fires very quickly, too, but due to its lower damage (and also lower heat buildup), it takes about 5 seconds longer to ultimately deal 100 less damage than the Vulcan.

So even though it seems OP... it's really not. We're talking a difference of ~222 damage or so between these three, and a difference in max firing time of 5.3 seconds. Thus, of all of these, the Assault Rifle is ultimately the best choice due to the heat-killing ability of the class, making it able to fire when the others have to more carefully manage their heat.

Edited by DarkPulse, November 12 2012 - 11:27 AM.

Reason as my minor ego, and opposite my desire to be a murderer.
A coagulated, gloomy thinking in the intelligence, as my major ego.
An antinomian theorem of behaviorism, in all of my thinkings.
It's what we call "The Inversion Impulse."

#47 Zeshi

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Posted November 12 2012 - 11:06 AM

View PostDarkPulse, on November 12 2012 - 11:00 AM, said:

The whole point is that you focus on the guy with unsurpassable firepower.

You basically just admit that its op here...

Why should one primary weapon have "unsurpassable firepower" compared to the other primary weapons_

Who should be focused down should be based on player skill, not who has the most imbalanced weapon.

Edited by Zeshi, November 12 2012 - 11:08 AM.

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#48 Skylead

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Posted November 12 2012 - 11:07 AM

I think if it had a small heat penalty for being kept spinning with rapid clicking it would be in a better place. The damage trade-off for it is supposed to be that you have to spin it up first, but with just a low amount of micro you can keep it ready for a fight at any moment (when not boosting forward obviously). If the game made it so you could only free-spin for 20 seconds or so seconds then it could still be used tactically to prep for a close duel, but not allow people to camp corners with it ready to go (also introduces a tactical juking strategy to use against a Vulcan user when maybe your build struggles to counter it)

#49 BuDeKai

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Posted November 12 2012 - 11:14 AM

View PostZeshi, on November 12 2012 - 10:20 AM, said:

People who voted no just like being op i guess

dont be so ignorant.

i voted no because the poll is a QQ poll. It may need some tweaking but as far as being broken im not sure. Every time im in a game and someone accuses the vulcan of being overpowered i always try and reproduce my results with the sub machine gun the next round and ive been able to 80-90 percent of the time. people also forget that with the berserkers ability almost any gun will seem overpowered

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#50 Inny

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Posted November 12 2012 - 11:17 AM

Why is this topic still being discussed _

View Post[ADH]Saunders, on November 09 2012 - 11:00 AM, said:

Can you take a screenshot of your assault mech with a vulcan_  There might be something wrong with our database or code - the closed beta 2 assault isn't supposed to have it.

Thx!

http://community.pla...n-from-assault/

Can we move onto other things now_

#51 Zeshi

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Posted November 12 2012 - 11:22 AM

View PostBuDeKai, on November 12 2012 - 11:14 AM, said:

View PostZeshi, on November 12 2012 - 10:20 AM, said:

People who voted no just like being op i guess

dont be so ignorant.


Internet insults, gotta love em. And you just supported my point that people who voted no are usually the ones using its currently op state.

Also, had you read my later posts you would see that i actually agree with you that it is not broken beyond repair.

Edited by Zeshi, November 12 2012 - 11:23 AM.

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#52 DarkPulse

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Posted November 12 2012 - 11:31 AM

View PostZeshi, on November 12 2012 - 11:06 AM, said:

You basically just admit that its op here...

Why should one primary weapon have "unsurpassable firepower" compared to the other primary weapons_

Who should be focused down should be based on player skill, not who has the most imbalanced weapon.
I just backed up my reasoning by editing my post. It's unstoppable firepower in shorter firefights (unless teamed on)... but the longer the fight goes, the more it swings in favor of Assault Rifle/Submachine Cannon. While they won't ever hit as hard, they're much more forgiving on heat (especially the Assault due to his ability), and the difference in terms of damage before topping out heat is ~222 or so from best to worst.

View PostBuDeKai, on November 12 2012 - 11:14 AM, said:

dont be so ignorant.

i voted no because the poll is a QQ poll. It may need some tweaking but as far as being broken im not sure. Every time im in a game and someone accuses the vulcan of being overpowered i always try and reproduce my results with the sub machine gun the next round and ive been able to 80-90 percent of the time. people also forget that with the berserkers ability almost any gun will seem overpowered
And my proofs above show why. As BuDeKai showed, they're all very capable weapons - they don't hit as hard, but they fire for much longer, and all three actually have very similar ROF (they're seperated by 30 thousandths of a second at most).

To be successful at Vulcan, you need to know when to not lay on the trigger. Both the Assault Rifle and (especially) the Submachine Cannon are much more forgiving at this, the former by virtue of +2.5 seconds longer overheat time compared to Vulcan (as well as its cooldown ability), the former by taking nearly a whopping extra 5.4 seconds to overheat. The Vulcan user must be considerably more aware of his heat buildup, at all times, than these two ever have to.

Edited by DarkPulse, November 12 2012 - 11:34 AM.

Reason as my minor ego, and opposite my desire to be a murderer.
A coagulated, gloomy thinking in the intelligence, as my major ego.
An antinomian theorem of behaviorism, in all of my thinkings.
It's what we call "The Inversion Impulse."

#53 Zeshi

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Posted November 12 2012 - 11:37 AM

While the AR and smg do fire longer, that's not really a huge bonus if your dead from a vulcan before you are able to reach that point.

In a team fight situation, its better to have someone on the other team dead and the vulcan user on your team close to overheating rather than having all opposing team members still alive and firing back.
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#54 Skylead

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Posted November 12 2012 - 11:41 AM

View PostZeshi, on November 12 2012 - 11:37 AM, said:

While the AR and smg do fire longer, that's not really a huge bonus if your dead from a vulcan before you are able to reach that point.

In a team fight situation, its better to have someone on the other team dead and the vulcan user on your team close to overheating rather than having all opposing team members still alive and firing back.

It should get better as people learn the game.

Example: Yesterday I was in a siege match where the A-class pilot on the other team was dominating the scoreboard with his Vulcan setup, but not once did I hear/see my team try to deal with him in a good manner, instead of realizing that he would probably be overheated after a 1v1 they would give him wide berth after each kill.

This meant that he had time to cool down before the next engagement and helped him stack kills. He wasn't inordinately good and could be out-dueled like any other player, but the way the team engaged him allowed him to fight in his ideal scenario.

Edited by Skylead, November 12 2012 - 11:42 AM.


#55 WarPig

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Posted November 12 2012 - 11:52 AM

Zeshi and others who I have been in games with...

is it OP...

yes. & no

Plain n simple it needs "Small" Tweaks to make it something viable without making it pointless to get.
the whole point of hitting 20 is to work towards something better than others for your effort I don't undertstand the point of people QQ'ing over this in closed beta so much.

ITS OP ITS OP OMFG... wahhhhh

really , this is how people make suggestions now to get things maybe fixed for the better_
Try spending more time posting suggestions and giving ideas for a fix that the community would rather see than leaving it to the Devs to guess what we want based on "IT's OP Cuz I can't Win" threads.

With or Without this gun I still manage to avg the same amount of Kills per game which is like 25-30 per game only difference is I die less, so I don't see this as OP just not handling the way it should.

My suggestion for it ..

It's suppose to do less dmg at long range or spread in it's firing.. this really does not happen the gun is highly accurate at long range and this is something that needs to be fixed.

This gun should allow for complete destruction close range, but cause the player to become very stationary with limited movement... I will suggest concept Heavyweapons guy from Team Fortress classic/ or TF2. as a model to go by.. anyone using this would be doing a good amount of dmg but ur mobility hindered and long range .. pfft forget it.

This is my suggestion to make it still useful/ and a gain without punishing players for earning it.

Please move in a positive Creative direction on things rather than rallying people behind the QQ fest .. Time to grow up and help things move forward!!
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#56 BlackCephie

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Posted November 12 2012 - 12:10 PM

Vulcan Zerks are a thing of nightmares.
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#57 Immie

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Posted November 12 2012 - 12:18 PM

DarkPulse, I think you're significantly understating how much 5 seconds is worth. The fact that the Vulcan does more damage than the other two weapons in 50% less time is a huge, tremendous, undeniable advantage that you're almost sweeping under the rug.

If you look at the weapons in terms of raw DPS numbers, you get:
  • SMC @ 80 DPS
  • AR @ 88.9 DPS
  • Vulcan @ 133 DPS
Put that way, the advantage starts to seem a little less trivial, eh_ Being able to stand and fire for 15 seconds to get the full advantage of the SMC's lower heat generation is next to impossible, especially since the Vulcan could have hosed down a heavy without even using a secondary weapon/item in under 8 seconds. Realistically, you're not going to be able to just sit and fire at a good player until he is dead; they're going to use cover. Which gives the vulcan a chance to cool off. How about a more realistic comparison of damage over time, say, damage dealt in 5 second chunks:
  • SMC deals 400 damage in 5 seconds
  • AR deals 444.5 damage in 5 seconds
  • Vulcan deals 598.5 damage in 4.5 seconds
Even counting the warm-up time, the vulcan outperforms its equivalents drastically. The only redeeming factors for the SMC and AR is that they have less spread, and while that's much harder to formulate numbers on, I'd guess that they only start to outperform the vulcan at such a long range that the heat/damage trade off is quite poor for all of them.



All that said, I only think the vulcan is moderately OP... I'd like to see the wind-up time increased, somewhere between 0.7-1 seconds, which would allow it to keep its face-melting properties but make it actually possible to abuse its disadvantages with smart use of cover. It would still absolutely annihilate any other weapon in open combat.

Edited by Immie, November 12 2012 - 12:38 PM.

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#58 defekt

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Posted November 12 2012 - 12:36 PM

View PostBlackCephie, on November 12 2012 - 12:10 PM, said:

Vulcan Zerks are a thing of nightmares.
A Zerker with a Vulcan is the silliest thing I've seen yet.  Sense will prevail, in one form or another.

#59 Crimson_Corsair

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Posted November 12 2012 - 01:18 PM

The Vulcan's greatest power... is Terror.
When you hear the buzz of death, you run. Once you panic in this game, its over.

Its silly to be suggesting balance changes when all the mechs and weapons aren't even on the table yet.

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#60 Timber_Wolf

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Posted November 12 2012 - 02:02 PM

I voted no. The gun  could use some tweaking, yes, but it's the combination of speed, in the  berserkers case, and ability with the assault, that make it op.  Imagine, if you will, an assault with the vulcan, no ability, or a defensive one or something, and a secondary thats less useful in cqc.  I really doubt the vulcan  would be that op in this circumstance.
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