140 replies to this topic

[haze4peace]

As a berserker with the vulcan I feel that it is way overpowered. I rarely use it because I feel like it isn't fair. The only time I pull it out is when others are using it.

[GunsnButter]

If it's been buffed at all in relation to A2 it's op. Pretty simple.

[Frenotx]

Alpha is still under an NDA, FYI.

[Dyson]

DarkPulse, on November 11 2012 - 07:51 PM, said:

  

Their power is greatly mitigated in multi-man situations. 2-3 players working together will be able to take the single Vulcan user out. It's a big reason I lost a Siege match last night that, on paper, we should've absolutely won.

Is there any mech that can't be easily taken out with 2-3 players_ LOL  No offense but the way the game is setup, it's just not possible for someone to 1 v 3 unless the 3 are totally incompetent.  The reason for this is that no matter what the class or mods, either your armor is going to get worn down or your guns will overheat.  You can only shoot so many bullets to do 1500+ damage (that is assuming 100% accuracy) before your guns overheat.

[DarkPulse]

Immie, on November 12 2012 - 12:18 PM, said:

DarkPulse, I think you're significantly understating how much 5 seconds is worth. The fact that the Vulcan does more damage than the other two weapons in 50% less time is a huge, tremendous, undeniable advantage that you're almost sweeping under the rug.

If you look at the weapons in terms of raw DPS numbers, you get:

• SMC @ 80 DPS
  
• AR @ 88.9 DPS
  
• Vulcan @ 133 DPS

Put that way, the advantage starts to seem a little less trivial, eh_ Being able to stand and fire for 15 seconds to get the full advantage of the SMC's lower heat generation is next to impossible, especially since the Vulcan could have hosed down a heavy without even using a secondary weapon/item in under 8 seconds. Realistically, you're not going to be able to just sit and fire at a good player until he is dead; they're going to use cover. Which gives the vulcan a chance to cool off. How about a more realistic comparison of damage over time, say, damage dealt in 5 second chunks:

• SMC deals 400 damage in 5 seconds
  
• AR deals 444.5 damage in 5 seconds
  
• Vulcan deals 598.5 damage in 4.5 seconds

Even counting the warm-up time, the vulcan outperforms its equivalents drastically. The only redeeming factors for the SMC and AR is that they have less spread, and while that's much harder to formulate numbers on, I'd guess that they only start to outperform the vulcan at such a long range that the heat/damage trade off is quite poor for all of them.

Vulcan does 666.66 damage in 5 seconds, obviously.

As for spread, here's the numbers on those.

• Assault Rifle: Min 0.0025, Max 0.205, Default 0.0025. Increases by 0.005 every bullet fired.
  
• Submachine Cannon: Min 0.0175, Max 0.125, Default 0.01. Increases by 0.0175 every bullet fired.
  
• Vulcan: Min 0.035, Max 0.225, Default 0.085. Not sure on how it increases as it seems to show no value for it.
  
• Range on all three: 50,000 UU.

Vulcan is definitely a high-DPS machine, but as you said, it can take a Brawler down in one clip - but it'll burn through at least 85% of its heat to do so, or over 90% if they got armor-boosting addons. Simply put, while it will slam down A-Class and B-Class, a C-Class is a much tougher proposition, requiring near-perfect aim or else you'll overheat before you down it.

Edited by DarkPulse, November 12 2012 - 04:29 PM.

[Zeshi]

DarkPulse, on November 12 2012 - 04:28 PM, said:

Immie, on November 12 2012 - 12:18 PM, said:

DarkPulse, I think you're significantly understating how much 5 seconds is worth. The fact that the Vulcan does more damage than the other two weapons in 50% less time is a huge, tremendous, undeniable advantage that you're almost sweeping under the rug.

If you look at the weapons in terms of raw DPS numbers, you get:

• SMC @ 80 DPS
  
• AR @ 88.9 DPS
  
• Vulcan @ 133 DPS

Put that way, the advantage starts to seem a little less trivial, eh_ Being able to stand and fire for 15 seconds to get the full advantage of the SMC's lower heat generation is next to impossible, especially since the Vulcan could have hosed down a heavy without even using a secondary weapon/item in under 8 seconds. Realistically, you're not going to be able to just sit and fire at a good player until he is dead; they're going to use cover. Which gives the vulcan a chance to cool off. How about a more realistic comparison of damage over time, say, damage dealt in 5 second chunks:

• SMC deals 400 damage in 5 seconds
  
• AR deals 444.5 damage in 5 seconds
  
• Vulcan deals 598.5 damage in 4.5 seconds

Even counting the warm-up time, the vulcan outperforms its equivalents drastically. The only redeeming factors for the SMC and AR is that they have less spread, and while that's much harder to formulate numbers on, I'd guess that they only start to outperform the vulcan at such a long range that the heat/damage trade off is quite poor for all of them.

Vulcan does 666.66 damage in 5 seconds, obviously.

As for spread, here's the numbers on those.

• Assault Rifle: Min 0.0025, Max 0.205, Default 0.0025. Increases by 0.005 every bullet fired.
  
• Submachine Cannon: Min 0.0175, Max 0.125, Default 0.01. Increases by 0.0175 every bullet fired.
  
• Vulcan: Min 0.035, Max 0.225, Default 0.085. Not sure on how it increases as it seems to show no value for it.
  
• Range on all three: 50,000 UU.

Vulcan is definitely a high-DPS machine, but as you said, it can take a Brawler down in one clip - but it'll burn through at least 85% of its heat to do so, or over 90% if they got armor-boosting addons. Simply put, while it will slam down A-Class and B-Class, a C-Class is a much tougher proposition, requiring near-perfect aim or else you'll overheat before you down it.

While it probably will use most of its heat to take down a C class (although i think the number is closer to 75-80%). The real problem is that its able to do that to a defensive C class in about 8 seconds when all you have to do is track someone with your mouse. Thats not even taking into account secodary weapon fire.

Edit- And a A class, even when specked defensively, will be taken out in just over 5 seconds (again not counting secondary weapon fire)

Edited by Zeshi, November 12 2012 - 04:43 PM.

[DM30]

DarkPulse, on November 12 2012 - 04:28 PM, said:

Vulcan is definitely a high-DPS machine, but as you said, it can take a Brawler down in one clip - but it'll burn through at least 85% of its heat to do so, or over 90% if they got armor-boosting addons. Simply put, while it will slam down A-Class and B-Class, a C-Class is a much tougher proposition, requiring near-perfect aim or else you'll overheat before you down it.

So basically, you're saying that those of us who play as the lighter classes are SOL, and should just accept our demises_

Getting more serious, I can't say that I really feel like the Vulcan is actually that much of a terribly over-powered weapon. Perhaps if they increased the spread on it a little bit so that it's not as hard to escape it in open areas or narrower corridors without cover (because for something that does significantly more DPS than other rapid-fire weapons it doesn't seem to have much worse accuracy, making that 'tradeoff' negligible in-game) then it would be easier to accept. The main issue, I feel, is that because of the level 20 lock on getting new weapons, anyone who's at a lower level doesn't have the option to pick other weapons that they may find work better for dealing with tough opponents.

For example, I like the high armour and the Hellfire missiles of the Rocketeer, but neither the HEAT cannon nor the EOC Repeater suit my play style particularly well. I do much better with rapid-fire weapons that have less of a penalty for missing a target (such as when my framerate periodically drops to 'Not a chance in hell of hitting that Infiltrator'). If I had the choice to buy an Assault Rifle for it, or even a Hawkins (which I've never tried but people seem to like complaining about) then I would be happier.

What I would like to see is keep the Vulcan as a level 20 only weapon, along with whatever other bonus guns there are presently, with maybe a few small tweaks and nothing more, but allow purchase of progressively better weapons at lower levels as well so that it's not 'struggle to get to 20, then unlock the god gun'. If a level 10 or so mech can have access to a sort of middle ground between the standard weapons and other alternatives so that they have more choice for something that suits their preference, then I feel like it would make going up against people with their Vulcans more bearable.

So, in summary, let the 20's have their Vulcans as a reward for putting in the time to get there. Just give the rest of us some options too, if only to take away the excuse that people died because they were locked to a specific set of weapons.

[Nitris]

I don't like there being "one gun to rule them all" situations. No weapon should be a direct upgrade in all aspects.

Sidegrades, specialisation, and tradeoffs should be what you consider when choosing weapons, nothing more.

EG:
The SMG is optimal in close to mid range, decent damage, decent accuracy, high firerate, medium heat generated.
The AR is optimal in close to mid range too, but has a lower firerate, more damage per bullet, and slightly lower heat generated. Overall it should have the same DPS.
The reason you would want to pick AR over the SMG is for damage per hit.
You have to hit less shots in total to do the same damage.
Why would you take the SMG_ It is less important to hit every shot so even if you miss a few, you haven't missed out on as much potential damage as you would have done with the AR.
Its risk - reward when picking between them, and this is the way all weapons should be balanced.

As it currently stands, the vulcan is a pure upgrade due to being superior in both damage and firerate than both the AR and SMG. Sure it makes more heat, but when you are kicking out THAT much damage THAT fast the pros outweigh the cons.

[TheChaffeemancer]

Nitris, on November 12 2012 - 05:13 PM, said:

Why would you take the SMG_

Because it's the standard weapon of Mech SG-1

[DarkPulse]

Zeshi, on November 12 2012 - 04:40 PM, said:

While it probably will use most of its heat to take down a C class (although i think the number is closer to 75-80%). The real problem is that its able to do that to a defensive C class in about 8 seconds when all you have to do is track someone with your mouse. Thats not even taking into account secodary weapon fire.

Edit- And a A class, even when specked defensively, will be taken out in just over 5 seconds (again not counting secondary weapon fire)

For the C-Class, 850 armor, so divide that into 133.33 and you get ~6.375 seconds for a kill. For an A-Class, this is 500 armor, so it's about 3.75 seconds.

Still, that's almost 40% heat for the A-Class, and almost 2/3 heat for the C-Class. Though, again, that assumes perfect firing, which obviously doesn't happen (especially for the A-Class if the pilot knows anything).

Nitris, on November 12 2012 - 05:13 PM, said:

I don't like there being "one gun to rule them all" situations. No weapon should be a direct upgrade in all aspects.

Sidegrades, specialisation, and tradeoffs should be what you consider when choosing weapons, nothing more.

EG:
The SMG is optimal in close to mid range, decent damage, decent accuracy, high firerate, medium heat generated.
The AR is optimal in close to mid range too, but has a lower firerate, more damage per bullet, and slightly lower heat generated. Overall it should have the same DPS.
The reason you would want to pick AR over the SMG is for damage per hit.
You have to hit less shots in total to do the same damage.
Why would you take the SMG_ It is less important to hit every shot so even if you miss a few, you haven't missed out on as much potential damage as you would have done with the AR.
Its risk - reward when picking between them, and this is the way all weapons should be balanced.

As it currently stands, the vulcan is a pure upgrade due to being superior in both damage and firerate than both the AR and SMG. Sure it makes more heat, but when you are kicking out THAT much damage THAT fast the pros outweigh the cons.

It kicks out way more heat and requires better heat management. Overheat and you're not shooting anything for eight seconds - and that's all someone good will need to wipe you out.

[Zeshi]

DarkPulse, on November 12 2012 - 05:58 PM, said:

Zeshi, on November 12 2012 - 04:40 PM, said:

While it probably will use most of its heat to take down a C class (although i think the number is closer to 75-80%). The real problem is that its able to do that to a defensive C class in about 8 seconds when all you have to do is track someone with your mouse. Thats not even taking into account secodary weapon fire.

Edit- And a A class, even when specked defensively, will be taken out in just over 5 seconds (again not counting secondary weapon fire)

For the C-Class, 850 armor, so divide that into 133.33 and you get ~6.375 seconds for a kill. For an A-Class, this is 500 armor, so it's about 3.75 seconds.

Still, that's almost 40% heat for the A-Class, and almost 2/3 heat for the C-Class. Though, again, that assumes perfect firing, which obviously doesn't happen (especially for the A-Class if the pilot knows anything).

Just to clarify, i did say defensively specced which means an extra 75 hp. I also assumed the +50 hp internal but it was my fault for not clarifying.


Edit- Also you act like AR and SMG require no heat management, which is absolutely not the case. Because they are doing less damage before they overheat, they actually have MORE overheat problems because it takes so long for the enemy to die. (not so much on the smg but def on the AR)

Edited by Zeshi, November 12 2012 - 07:07 PM.

[Immie]

Yep, technically the Vulcan is in fact more heat efficient than the AR/SMC; divide the DPS by the HPS. The AR suffers at 11.1, the SMC holds 12.3, and the Vulcan leads with 13.3.

[D20Face]

Give me range numbers.

Start falloff, end falloff, damage difference.

As far as DPS is concerned Vulcan and Flak are the kings and yet the Slug Rifle gets whined about on just as frequent a basis.

If the range values are too similar between the MGs I'll hop on the bandwagon. Without them I won't.

[Zeshi]

Immie, on November 12 2012 - 07:33 PM, said:

Yep, technically the Vulcan is in fact more heat efficient than the AR/SMC; divide the DPS by the HPS. The AR suffers at 11.1, the SMC holds 12.3, and the Vulcan leads with 13.3.

So i guess that pretty much leaves its weaknesses at...

1. The spin up time (which a skilled player can easily compensate for)

2. A slightly higher spread, but still able to kill things at least decently well at range.

Not really enough to justify its strengths.

Random idea to help balance it- Cause it to generate heat during the spin up time (possibly less heat than normal firing time).

[Zeshi]

D20Face, on November 12 2012 - 08:05 PM, said:

Give me range numbers.

Start falloff, end falloff, damage difference.

As far as DPS is concerned Vulcan and Flak are the kings and yet the Slug Rifle gets whined about on just as frequent a basis.

If the range values are too similar between the MGs I'll hop on the bandwagon. Without them I won't.

I actually haven't heard people whining about the slug rifle as much (or snipers in general) now that more people are getting the Vulcan lol.

[Sylhiri]

Sylhiri, on November 11 2012 - 09:48 PM, said:

Hell no. C-Class right now can rip through people easily. People vastly overrate mobility, sure it's great and you can dodge quite a bit but it's completely limited. Mobility is limited by the amount of fuel you currently have and what area your in, like hallways and what not. In an open space you can dodge normal attacks pretty easy but the explosives are what can kill you. Health and armor is functional all the time, it's not as limited as fuel. If you played against a team of all C-Classes then you know that mobility counts for nothing when you are constantly bombarded by Hellfire Missiles, I shudder to think what happens when they all have Vulcans too. Heat is pretty consistent throughout all classes but having the health to tank through multiple attacks is not.

After playing a full day of Rocketeer I'll correct myself (only level 1 though). C-Class would to well with a rapid fire gun for close range combat but I still think having a Vulcan on one is a little over the top if they managed to fully correct the Turret mode. They are actually really great when you have more then one working together and some maps are easier to manage with them then others, the mobility wasn't that bad really (this coming from someone who plays A and B classes) but have limited DPS output, they have burst damage just not fantastic DPS. If they made a minigun type specially for the C-class that is near Assault Rifle damage then I would be all over that, just don't let them have more DPS then HP. I did do better in multiple encounters though which was nice.

Edited by Sylhiri, November 12 2012 - 09:26 PM.

[Lord_Trent_Kellan]

Immie, on November 12 2012 - 07:33 PM, said:

Yep, technically the Vulcan is in fact more heat efficient than the AR/SMC; divide the DPS by the HPS. The AR suffers at 11.1, the SMC holds 12.3, and the Vulcan leads with 13.3.

To add to your point:
How many people, throughout the match, fire constantly until they overheat_  Not many.  How many people fire until they have taken out a mech or can use cover to cooldown_  Anyone who knows what they're doing.  With that DPS vs HPS efficiency, and with relatively skilled players simply being able to keep the extremely short spin-up from damaging their effectiveness much, what does that make this weapon_

I liked your suggestion of increasing the spin-up time.

[Timber_Wolf]

Alright, we already know that the vulcan is not meant to be on the assault, so let's rule that one out for purposes of discussing the vulcan and I'm going to use DarkPulse's numbers he posted earlier.

• Assault Rifle: 1,111.11... in 12.5 seconds.
  
• Submachine Cannon: 1,230.76 in ~15.38 seconds.
  
• Vulcan can deal 1,333 damage in 10 seconds.

Now, these numbers do clearly show that the vulcan is easily the best.  Heat mitigation isn't -too- difficult to do, especially if you're a heavier class and the enemy will be dodging around you, hiding behind cover, and allowing you to cool off.  As others have said, the spread is fairly low if you fire on bursts with the vulcan as well, meaning it's not too hard to pick enemies off who are escaping.  I'm not sure what the exact spin up time for the vulcan is, but it's probably just short of one second.
First, I think the spread should be increased, making it harder to pick off retreating enemies.  Second, a slight reduction in damage to reduce it's dps to around ~ 115 would help too.  I think the most health a C class can get (before mitigation) is 1020, correct me if I'm wrong, but this means that currently, assuming all shots hit, a class C can be killed in roughly 8 seconds and with a slight drop in damage, roughly 9.

With that, you get a few changes:

• SMC: 80 DPS/1230.76 @ 15.38 Seconds/Heat efficiency @ 12.3
  
• AR: 89.9 DPS/1,111.11 damage before overheat @12.5 seconds/Heat efficiency @ 11.1
  
• Vulcan:  115 DPS (ignoring spin up time)/1150 damage @10 seconds/Heat efficiency @11.5

Now, let's also assume that the vulcan's spin up time is ~.5 seconds.  This means the vulcan has to fire for ~2.29 seconds before it overtakes the AR in damage.  Currently, it only takes the vulcan ~1.6 seconds before it over takes the AR, again assuming .5 second spin up.  
But, if you take accuracy reduction into account so that the vulcan can't reliably take out enemies at a distance, it leaves the AR in a nice role with no spin up time and the ability to hit mid-range enemies.  The SMC now does the most total damage and is the most heat efficient, lending itself the unique ability of hopping easily from fight to fight without needing to stop and cool down.  And the vulcan gets the role it's meant for of being a high damage, close range, high heat, rapid fire minigun.  The flak cannon stays best in extreme CQC, and the hawkins... exists.

I did this instead of math homework.

EDIT:  Looking back at the numbers, I forgot there's also an effective range stat.  Instead of an accuracy drop you could just give it significantly less effective range than the other two guns.  Also, I don't think it should stay limited to C class only.  I do agree that most C mechs should have it as an option because you can escape them easily, but certain class B mechs should have it as an option, -especially- if future A class mechs will make use of the flak cannon (just speculation, though).  I probably wouldn't give A class the option to equip it though.

Edited by Timber_Wolf, November 12 2012 - 11:34 PM.

[LordofNosgoth]

Everyone seems to be missing the larger point that the Vulcan out DPS's every other weapon in the game by nearly 45%. Think about that for a second. Then imagine you're the guy/gal who can only afford to play 2-4hrs every 2 or 3 days (average amount of time gamers spend weekly). Now imagine a world where everyone who's had the time to endlessly grind to Lv20 (inspite of the horrid leveling bug) is already part of a clan that's not inviting, plays together quite frequently, (insert any other downside here) and all you want to do is have fun...

Everytime I hear, see or make the arguement of a weapon, class, ability, etc. being "OP" there's always someone who has (in some form or another) the typical gamer responses:

"UMadbro_" <- This often is heard from the mouths of trolls whose time is better spent under bridges. And it has been said here, though more politely.

My response: "Nope. Any reason I should be_"

"N00b" <- This is generally spoken by the arrogant jackanape who thinks that because you don't spend as much time in game as they do, you not only can't compare but have no right to voice an opinion. And, yet again, it has been said in this very thread - again, more politely.

My response: "Says the guy who spends 30+ hours a week on a video game that's meant to entertain, not become a life style"

"Get a life" <- This particular piece of hilarity is often spoken by the same jerk who cried 'n00b' only seconds before learning that the person they're talking to has spent nearly double the amount of time in-game as they have and/or in the same genre of games and is their way of covering up for sudden feelings of inadequacy and guilt. Once again, while spoken more politely, I have seen this comment in this thread as well as several others.

My response: "Coming from someone who spends almost as much time in-game as me, that is hilarious. Thanks for playing!"

"Want me to pwn you with a different class/weapon/character/etc._" <- One more fine example of an individual who belongs underneath a bridge, extorting tolls from unwary passerby. Often spoken by the person who, in their infinite arrogance, believes that you - the 'n00b' - cannot possibly beat them, irregardless of situation because they are "pros" and are clearly superior to you in every way. Spoken clear as a bell here.

My response: "You're welcome to try. But at some point, you're not going to like the outcome. No one wins forever."


I could go on for days here, but the bottom line is simple: Those who have and/or enjoy using OP weapons - be it the Heat Cannon or Vulcan, both excessively OP - or classes (Berserker needs a very serious tone down, poste haste) are always going to defend it with endless debate and BS. But these days, the vast majority of gamers are rapidly approaching their 30's (if not already in them) and have families, college, careers and other concerns that consume the lion's share of their time. It's also this very same group of people who have the most disposable income to fork over for games. So, if the majority of us hop online and go "Dude, that shizz is OP" it is definitely worth taking a look at.

Let's get back to our "Imagine this..." scenario: Here you are, a casual gamer looking to have a good time, wanting to get in-game and blow off some steam. And along comes a Spider with a giant gun that is pretty much unbeatable. Sure, if there are 2 or 3 of you working in concert, you might be able to take one down... One. And there's Six of them on a team. Out of the 2 of you working towards this end, you lost one and the other is heavily damaged. Along comes the spider's arachnid friends and you're out of fuel from dashing around... You're done. For the enemy team, this is considered an acceptable loss. For you, your team just lost 2 to their 1. As long as that keeps happening, game mode really isn't going to matter, you simply won't have the man-power to rally an appropriate response.

For now, due to the limited nature of the CB's; the Vulcan, while annoying, isn't an obstacle that can't be overcome with some ingenuity and a few savvy teammates. Left unchecked, however... you think matches are plagued with Berserkers and Heat Cannon Infiltrators are bad_ Just you wait. Hawken will be one battlefield you'll never want to return to.

Which, I've found, is the problem with all gamers everywhere. You can't seem to see past the here and now. I very clearly remember how Crysis 2 players griped about the suit getting nerfed into oblivion defeated the point of playing a Crysis game and that if the madness continued, the game would die. Here we are, about one year later, and sure enough it's dead. And it isn't the only game that's died because of the stupidity of the people whining in the forums and the devs giving into their stupidity blindly.

So, go on. Argue to keep OP weapons. When the game dies only a few months after launch and you're left with hundreds of empty servers and the same, boring community members to play with, you'll know why.

And no one will be able to say I didn't warn you.

Edited by LordofNosgoth, November 12 2012 - 11:41 PM.

[BuDeKai]

Zeshi, on November 12 2012 - 08:52 PM, said:

I actually haven't heard people whining about the slug rifle as much (or snipers in general) now that more people are getting the Vulcan lol.

if its not one thing its another. i bet people would have called op on the lighting gun in quake being overpowered if they had done alphas, betas, etc.