140 replies to this topic

[LordofNosgoth]

AsianJoyKiller, on November 13 2012 - 10:14 AM, said:

Also, I'd like to apologize.
My mother's funeral was this weekend, so I've been a little... on edge as of recent. At 3am, or whenever I posted, I should probably think a little more before I post.

You know, I just saw you post almost verbatim one of the things I said, found it condescending and reacted.

Not my best moment, and, like I said, I'm sorry.

Heartily accepted. And I've noticed you and Beeman working together a lot. It's a real...(wait for it) "Buzz-kill". (Queue the drum for the corny joke).

Anyways, I look forward to many good games to come.

Deuces.

[Crimson_Corsair]

I've noticed that in using my vulcan, I don't have a "Spin-down time" (only visually).
Releasing the trigger and firing again resets the spin-up time to 0. Anyone else getting the same thing or should I report it as a bug_

[DarkPulse]

Zeshi, on November 13 2012 - 10:44 AM, said:

Everything you have described here are not specific counters to the Vulcan, they are counters to machine-gun type weaponry. And its already been stated (proved i would say) that the Vulcan is simply better than the AR or smg, meaning that it is too powerful.

You don't have to buy the AR or SMC. You have to buy the Vulcan. And you can't buy it with MP, either - you have to buy it the hard way, 3750 HP, which even with a booster will take a fairly long time to get, considering a good game of Siege will met you perhaps 250 or so. You're then looking at nearly 20 "good" siege games before you can nab it - and this isn't even counting the time it takes to get to Level 20 to buy it.

Regardless, they are still counters. The fact that you feel it's OP and needs to be nerfed doesn't magically dismiss the fact that there are anti-machinegun tactics you can use to reduce its advantages and force it back.

Zeshi, on November 13 2012 - 10:44 AM, said:

If your going to make a weapon that punishes players that hard for "charging in" as you say (even though it is able to do much more that), it needs to have significant disadvantages like the flak cannon does. Currently its only disadvange is a start up time which barely even matters because you can just pre-charge it. (this could be mitigated by it generating heat during spin up.)

It also builds up heat like mad. So does the Flak Cannon. The Flak Cannon packs just about as much punch, realistically (13 per shard x 12 shards fired = 156 damage, fires once every 1.2 seconds meaning a DPS of 130 which is negligible in terms of difference), but obviously it counts on all shots hitting, which is easier to do with a minimum spread of 0.08 minimum and 0.195 maximum, compared to the Vulcan's 0.035 low and 0.225 high, with a default of 0.85, meaning that effectively, the Flak Cannon starts with less minimum spread and finishes with less maximum spread. And unlike the Vulcan, it actually has no apparent maximum range at all, while producing 1.1 more heat per use.

And yet, we don't see people railing against the Flak Cannon, do we_

Zeshi, on November 13 2012 - 10:44 AM, said:

P.S. You suggested that 2 snipers be used to counter one primary weapon. That is just silly.
Also, Vulcan users are currently anything but slow and big.

Like I said before, I fully agree they have no business being on A-Class, and we know them being on Assaults is something the devs confirmed should not happen. I'm forthwith assuming they will be restricted to C-Class mechs only.

And hey, snipers are snipers. They're the best "safe" class for taking out a Vulcan. People 2v1 stronger players all the time; what's so different about this scenario_

Zeshi, on November 13 2012 - 10:44 AM, said:

Edit- EVERYTHING can be countered in one way or another, when something becomes op is when you have to game plan for a specific weapon significantly more than other weapons of a similar type.

Really_ So everyone who's played Halo, or CS, or UT, or Quake and changed their play accordingly were playing against OP weapons and never knew it_

Zeshi, on November 13 2012 - 10:44 AM, said:

Edit part two- The majority of the people in this thread are not "crying its op", they are giving valid reasons like 50% higher dps than the smg, greater heat efficiency, etc.

As was said, it's a weapon you have to buy with HP (meaning you earned time played), and it's not going to be on as many classes as it is now. Considering what you have to go through to buy it and use it, are you saying it shouldn't feel like a bit of a reward_

After all, nothing is stopping anyone from doing the exact same thing.

Zeshi, on November 13 2012 - 10:44 AM, said:

Edit part three (i realize this is getting ridiculous)-  In alot of your posts you suggest things like that the way to defeat a vulcan is to do things to distract it and hit it from its blind slide.  You should not need two people to kill a vulcan user. If a vulcan user necessitates two people to neutralize it then something is wrong.

And as I indicated, you don't need it. You can do it with smart play. I've taken out Vulcans as a Sharpshooter - in close combat. Admittedly, my skill level is rather high, though, so I can reasonably get away with it. I simply presented more realistic strategies that can be used. Two snipers, or a couple rocketeers, or one of each will seriously ruin a Vulcan user's day, and if you want to be a little more risky, you can always do things like grenades and HE charges and so on.

The usual "consistent damage" is not going to work against Vulcans. You want high, burst damage. Sabots, HEAT, Grenades. Ticking them with fast ROF weapons just makes you a target. Punching holes in them is much more effective.

Crimson_Corsair, on November 13 2012 - 12:16 PM, said:

I've noticed that in using my vulcan, I don't have a "Spin-down time" (only visually).
Releasing the trigger and firing again resets the spin-up time to 0. Anyone else getting the same thing or should I report it as a bug_

If you do it immediately, it doesn't spin down. The only time spin-up kicks in is when it more or less fully spins down.

Edited by DarkPulse, November 13 2012 - 12:40 PM.

[Timber_Wolf]

Having to buy it means NOTHING.  All weapons, especially weapons in the same category, should be sidegrades.  Right now there is no reason to pick an AR or SMG over the vulcan.

Edited by Timber_Wolf, November 13 2012 - 12:58 PM.

[KaszaWspraju]

Timber_Wolf, on November 13 2012 - 12:57 PM, said:

Having to buy it means NOTHING.  All weapons, especially weapons in the same category, should be sidegrades.  Right now there is no reason to pick an AR or SMG over the vulcan.

THIS !

[Zeshi]

Darkpulse, the fact that would suggest that the vulcan is okay being more powerful than the AR or smg because you have to buy it has made you lose all credibility in my eyes. I'm done.

Edit- i do need to point out a few errors you made in your post.

1. The flak cannon actually has a higher minimum spread than the vulcan.

2. Yes people 2v1 stronger players all the time, but they shouldnt been considered the stronger player just because of the weapon they are holding.

3. I said game plan SIGNIFICANTLY more. Please read more closely in the future. That means you have to be more worried about a Vulcan than an AR when they should both be viable options.

Now I'm done arguing with the brick wall.

Edited by Zeshi, November 13 2012 - 01:18 PM.

[Skylead]

Timber_Wolf, on November 13 2012 - 12:57 PM, said:

Having to buy it means NOTHING.  All weapons, especially weapons in the same category, should be sidegrades.  Right now there is no reason to pick an AR or SMG over the vulcan.

We already know that balancing needs to occur in the chain weapons because right now there is no real reason to take the SMG over the AR as the slight extra damage you can produce before an overheat is not worth the distance trade. So make a mental note of what the ability is and do your best to fight against it. That is what a BETA is for you know, balance and testing to see how the community approaches and solves problems. Not so you can QQ when you lose to a strategy that you haven't encountered before and think is ZOMG SUPER OP!!!!!



TLDR: If you can't calmly test a game and take the imperfections in stride without getting bent out of shape then you probably want to avoid anything with the tag of BETA and stick to release products.

Edited by Skylead, November 13 2012 - 01:17 PM.

[NotKjell]

Crimson_Corsair, on November 13 2012 - 12:16 PM, said:

I've noticed that in using my vulcan, I don't have a "Spin-down time" (only visually).
Releasing the trigger and firing again resets the spin-up time to 0. Anyone else getting the same thing or should I report it as a bug_

I obviously can't know for sure, but I believe that's by design. Without that, with good play you'll be able to keep the vulcan primed to shoot at all times, eliminating it's weakness.

And yes, the vulcan IS a bit strong. I wish I played against it more, as I don't have it unlocked on any of my mechs. There's also one issue some of you do seem to be ignoring, it IS the ultimate pub-stomper. A good player can pub-stomp hard anyways, but average players will beat other average players if they use the vulcan. Good players can beat it and force it to be a balanced weapon, but anyone else does die. That isn't a positive thing for the community at large, particularly because of how out-of-reach the vulcan is for most players.

I'd ideally like a fix for the vulcan that preserves it as a weapon that in the right hands is top-tier, but not so dominating under all conidtions against normal players. A plain DPS drop could do this though I don't quite like it. Increased heat generation could be good, maybe combined with a lengthened spinup time. This won't hurt it's use too much in the hands of good players, but for normal players the heat would ensure you couldn't string together kill after kill. Spinup time would make the weakness easier to exploit and the gun harder to master in general.

Side note that's a more advanced tactic is I love the sound design of the vulcan. It lets you know when it's around, and the spinup of the barrels is actually quite loud. This spinup sound alone has let me keep track of where a vulcan user is. I play infiltrator and already use hit-and-run tactics, but if you follow the rhythm of them spinning, releasing and re-spinning you can time your shots when their gun is un-reved. Quite fun.

Edited by NotKjell, November 13 2012 - 01:17 PM.

[Timber_Wolf]

You are right skylead, I shouldn't discuss things I feel are unfun in a beta TEST.  It's not QQ, it's testing the game.  Anything that limits fun is what we are here to talk about.

Edited by Timber_Wolf, November 13 2012 - 01:52 PM.

[WarPig]

@Timber_Wolf.

To hit your earlier statement that all upgrades should be side grades... That makes no sense to me other than just flat out saying "leveling is not important." If everything you get is just a side grade then the devs have to address another issue all together .. as in WHY have leveling .. rather just ignore that and have us earn points to purchase things we want.

While I agree in the idea of what you are saying , it just does not make sense in current game to wanna have players level 20 levels for something to just use because they think it looks cool... Cosmetics on the mechs are 1 thing.. actually getting new weapons for "leveling" is another story all together.

So maybe we can agree to disagree_ leveling goes bye bye and all weapons become side grade cosmetics or leveling stays and the effort and time players put in gain them something over the others who have not.

Sounds Fair to me ..

[TheChaffeemancer]

WarPig, on November 13 2012 - 02:05 PM, said:

@Timber_Wolf.

To hit your earlier statement that all upgrades should be side grades... That makes no sense to me other than just flat out saying "leveling is not important." If everything you get is just a side grade then the devs have to address another issue all together .. as in WHY have leveling .. rather just ignore that and have us earn points to purchase things we want.

So maybe we can agree to disagree_ leveling goes bye bye and all weapons become side grade cosmetics or leveling stays and the effort and time players put in gain them something over the others who have not.

A sidegrade is not necessarily cosmetic. An example of what can be considered a sidegrade would be a good number of items in TF2. The standard medi-gun and the Kritzkreig. Both are very strong, yet have pretty different uses.

The point he is getting at is that the new gun should not be flat out better then the alternatives, they should have pros and cons that balance them with the alternatives.

[NotKjell]

Upgrades being sidegrades is just worded badly. However I do feel weapons shouldn't be upgrades over one another. Look at TF2. While many of the weapons they've added since launch are very nice and powerful, the starting weapons are still great, if not generally the best. This has been because all weapons have been side-grades. More useful in some common situations, but less useful in others.

This also lets them avoid power creep over time. If the main justification for a new weapon is it being stronger, if the devs ever want to add new weapons that mean anything they'll have to match or exceed previous weapons. 6 years down the road, the original weapons would be hopelessly outdated. In tf2 though, 6 years down the road the basic weapons are still largely the best. Because of side-grades.

[Timber_Wolf]

Side grade means its not universally better, not cosmetically different.   Lets say the AR is universally good in game X.  It has good range, decent DPS, medium recoil etc.  You have an SMG alternative with less recoil, less damage, less range, but you move faster with it, making it easier to cap flags etc.  You have an LMG alternative, it has more damage, more recoil, a better magazine capacity, slower reload and slows you down.
None of these are UNIVERSALLY better than the others and all have clearly defined  playstyles and roles.  Hawken, and most games, do this.  

Right now the vulcan outperforms the AR and SMC, leaving them with no defined role.  
In regards to leveling, it serves the optimization role, it shouldn't unlock new weapons imo, and if it does, they need to be balanced.

EDIT:  Also, the flexibility of having more weapons available to you on respawn is a direct upgrade as well.  If you play a certain class but have all the weapons available to you and the enemy team is a certain composition, you can select the right weapon for the job.  None of your weapons are better than the others all the time, but this time, one weapon will outperform the others, and that's perfectly fine.

Edited by Timber_Wolf, November 13 2012 - 03:10 PM.

[DarkPulse]

Timber_Wolf, on November 13 2012 - 12:57 PM, said:

Having to buy it means NOTHING.  All weapons, especially weapons in the same category, should be sidegrades.  Right now there is no reason to pick an AR or SMG over the vulcan.

But they're not in the same category, that's the kicker.

I don't know the options off-hand for the A-Class or the B-Class, but I know the options for the Brawler are the following: Flak Cannon as primary. SA Hawkins as alt primary. Once you hit L20, you can buy either a HEAT Cannon or the Vulcan.

Most would consider pretty much 3 of those four weapons (the exception being the SA Hawkins) as, essentially, "heavy weapons." They all produce rather similar levels of heat per use, again, aside from the SA Hawkins.

Therefore, they're not in the "wrong category." You're thinking they are. Three of the Brawler's four possible primary weapons are in the "big damage, big heat" category.

Zeshi, on November 13 2012 - 01:08 PM, said:

Darkpulse, the fact that would suggest that the vulcan is okay being more powerful than the AR or smg because you have to buy it has made you lose all credibility in my eyes. I'm done.

It should be. One's an assault rifle, once's a submachine cannon, the third is a frickin' minigun. Which you have to play lots of games to even unlock, and if you don't have the Hawken Points to buy it, you have to play even more to use it.

I've never heard of a minigun that should be "as weak" as a mere assault rifle, let alone a Submachine Cannon.

It's all about tradeoffs of whether you want less heat or more damage. The Vulcan kicks up way more heat and does way more damage, but it also means that it's much more reliant on the pilot keeping good aim, whereas the other two are more forgiving of spray-and-pray and rapidly dodging enemy tactics.

It's also a lot more reliant on making good use of cover (which you should be doing anyway) to counter his tactics, and fighting a more distanced, evasive fight with the Vulcan user, as opposed to being able to zip up and shoot him like with any other gun.

The point is really simple; ultimately the AR is basically just a weaker version of the Vulcan that does about the same damage at a slower firing rate. Does it add up over a lot of bullets_ Yes. But the fact of the matter is if you're gonna nerf one of them, you might as well nerf at least those two, because believe me, if the Vulcan gets nerfed, then we're just going to see "AR is too powerful!" Hell, I even made that complaint myself back in CBE1, then I wisened up and began fighting them differently. I no longer have a problem with them; seeing a team rolling with Assaults isn't the bane of my existence. In short, I adapted and I learned how to beat them. You can too.

Nerfing a weapon should never be the answer to players who are unwilling to change their play because a player is using a weapon they don't like. That's how weapon balance gets wrecked. You've got to expect that players are going to have at least a reasonable amount of skill when it comes to balancing your guns, and I don't think any of the tactics I mentioned above are exactly pro-level strategy here. In short, I feel it's no reason to weaken the Vulcan in terms of damage, ROF, or heat (though I could see potentially increasing its startup delay).

Zeshi, on November 13 2012 - 01:08 PM, said:

1. The flak cannon actually has a higher minimum spread than the vulcan.

Vulcan's minimum spread ("SpreadLow") is 0.035, but it also has an entry for "SpreadDefault" of 0.085, which neither of the two other classes have. I believe this overrides the minimum spread of the Vulcan, but since I don't know the exact meanings behind the variables, I can't say this for sure. If this is correct, then the Flak Cannon (SpreadLow=0.08) is actually more accurate. The high-end accuracy is also obviously in favor of the Flak Cannon (0.195 vs. 0.225) so overall the Flak Cannon is more accurate.

However, thinking about it more, SpreadDefault could simply be what the "average" shot is,, and as there's no set increment, it will flip between 0.035 and 0.225 for all shots. If that's the case, then it's a much harder question, because while the Vulcan's accuracy is pretty random, at least the Flak's would be controlled and predictable, which a player can account for. (And it'd still end up tighter than the Vulcan.)

Zeshi, on November 13 2012 - 01:08 PM, said:

2. Yes people 2v1 stronger players all the time, but they shouldnt been considered the stronger player just because of the weapon they are holding.

A mediocre Vulcan player won't exactly do very good either, you know. If they don't pay attention to their surroundings or whatever, they're easy to mitigate.

Stronger players are stronger because they have more skill, not because the Vulcan magically turns them into walking death machines. I'm sure if I wanted to I could tear it up nearly as easily with an Assault Rifle, especially when you factor in the heat ignoring abilities of Assault.

Would I still be OP if I did_ You seem to have no problems with the Assault Rifle, after all.

Zeshi, on November 13 2012 - 01:08 PM, said:

3. I said game plan SIGNIFICANTLY more. Please read more closely in the future. That means you have to be more worried about a Vulcan than an AR when they should both be viable options.

And they are. Aside from a few things, a Vulcan-wielding Brawler and an Assault are very similar:

• The Brawler will have an edge in armor of at least 175, and possibly more. They will also have a decrease in speed and momentum.
  
• The Vulcan will do more up-front damage, the AR will do slower but more steady damage.
  
• The Assault can ignore his heat if he needs to; the Vulcan has no such luxury.

So in short_ Play the Vulcan user like an Assault+. You don't charge Assaults and you don't charge Vulcans either. You try to take them out from a reasonable range and you get evasive in a big way. There's no magic formula for defeating either of them here except for playing smart and making use of cover. It's why I said, ultimately, due to the heat-removing ability, the Assault is actualy the superior class over the Vulcan, because while the Vulcan will dish it quicker, the Assault, if need be, can fire it non-stop (including TOW Rockets, which more than make up for the damage decrease!) for up to 22.5 seconds, and he can do it again every sixty seconds. So even though the Vulcan does more up-front damage, in the end, all the Assault user has to do is make use of his ability and voila - he can out-do the Vulcan because the Vulcan user simply put can't use TOW + Vulcan at the same time, whereas the Assault gets 10 free seconds to use both just as much as he wants.

That's not what I'd call a "significant strategy shift." That's what I'd call "thinking about the meta-game" which is what I do quite a bit and it's why I ultimately said Assault is the superior class. To you this is a joke, but you did not look into things as deeply as I do.

Zeshi, on November 13 2012 - 01:08 PM, said:

Now I'mdone arguing with the brick wall.

I'm sorry you don't like someone who has a different opinion than you. But I feel the Vulcan, while powerful, is not nearly as game-breakingly bad as you hold it to be. It can be countered, you just need to use skill and a bit of planning to do it, and make use of every tool at your disposal. It is not my fault if you do not wish to (or cannot) do so, and I do not wish to have a weapon nerfed because of people who cannot, as if it does get nerfed to the point of uselessness, I'll just go to my Assault class and do nearly the same thing except for slightly more slowly (and a fair bit less obviously - thus more dangerously - given that the Assault Rifle will never turn heads quite like a Vulcan will).

Edited by DarkPulse, November 13 2012 - 03:15 PM.

[Zeshi]

DarkPulse, on November 13 2012 - 03:08 PM, said:

Timber_Wolf, on November 13 2012 - 12:57 PM, said:

Having to buy it means NOTHING.  All weapons, especially weapons in the same category, should be sidegrades.  Right now there is no reason to pick an AR or SMG over the vulcan.

But they're not in the same category, that's the kicker.

I don't know the options off-hand for the A-Class or the B-Class, but I know the options for the Brawler are the following: Flak Cannon as primary. SA Hawkins as alt primary. Once you hit L20, you can buy either a HEAT Cannon or the Vulcan.

Most would consider pretty much 3 of those four weapons (the exception being the SA Hawkins) as, essentially, "heavy weapons." They all produce rather similar levels of heat per use, again, aside from the SA Hawkins.

Therefore, they're not in the "wrong category." You're thinking they are. Three of the Brawler's four possible primary weapons are in the "big damage, big heat" category.

Zeshi, on November 13 2012 - 01:08 PM, said:

Darkpulse, the fact that would suggest that the vulcan is okay being more powerful than the AR or smg because you have to buy it has made you lose all credibility in my eyes. I'm done.

It should be. One's an assault rifle, once's a submachine cannon, the third is a frickin' minigun. Which you have to play lots of games to even unlock, and if you don't have the Hawken Points to buy it, you have to play even more to use it.

I've never heard of a minigun that should be "as weak" as a mere assault rifle, let alone a Submachine Cannon.

It's all about tradeoffs of whether you want less heat or more damage. The Vulcan kicks up way more heat and does way more damage, but it also means that it's much more reliant on the pilot keeping good aim, whereas the other two are more forgiving of spray-and-pray and rapidly dodging enemy tactics.

It's also a lot more reliant on making good use of cover (which you should be doing anyway) to counter his tactics, and fighting a more distanced, evasive fight with the Vulcan user, as opposed to being able to zip up and shoot him like with any other gun.

The point is really simple; ultimately the AR is basically just a weaker version of the Vulcan that does about the same damage at a slower firing rate. Does it add up over a lot of bullets_ Yes. But the fact of the matter is if you're gonna nerf one of them, you might as well nerf at least those two, because believe me, if the Vulcan gets nerfed, then we're just going to see "AR is too powerful!" Hell, I even made that complaint myself back in CBE1, then I wisened up and began fighting them differently. I no longer have a problem with them; seeing a team rolling with Assaults isn't the bane of my existence. In short, I adapted and I learned how to beat them. You can too.

Nerfing a weapon should never be the answer to players who are unwilling to change their play because a player is using a weapon they don't like. That's how weapon balance gets wrecked. You've got to expect that players are going to have at least a reasonable amount of skill when it comes to balancing your guns, and I don't think any of the tactics I mentioned above are exactly pro-level strategy here. In short, I feel it's no reason to weaken the Vulcan in terms of damage, ROF, or heat (though I could see potentially increasing its startup delay).

Zeshi, on November 13 2012 - 01:08 PM, said:

1. The flak cannon actually has a higher minimum spread than the vulcan.

Vulcan's minimum spread ("SpreadLow") is 0.035, but it also has an entry for "SpreadDefault" of 0.085, which neither of the two other classes have. I believe this overrides the minimum spread of the Vulcan, but since I don't know the exact meanings behind the variables, I can't say this for sure. If this is correct, then the Flak Cannon (SpreadLow=0.08) is actually more accurate. The high-end accuracy is also obviously in favor of the Flak Cannon (0.195 vs. 0.225) so overall the Flak Cannon is more accurate.

However, thinking about it more, SpreadDefault could simply be what the "average" shot is,, and as there's no set increment, it will flip between 0.035 and 0.225 for all shots. If that's the case, then it's a much harder question, because while the Vulcan's accuracy is pretty random, at least the Flak's would be controlled and predictable, which a player can account for. (And it'd still end up tighter than the Vulcan.)

Zeshi, on November 13 2012 - 01:08 PM, said:

2. Yes people 2v1 stronger players all the time, but they shouldnt been considered the stronger player just because of the weapon they are holding.

A mediocre Vulcan player won't exactly do very good either, you know. If they don't pay attention to their surroundings or whatever, they're easy to mitigate.

Stronger players are stronger because they have more skill, not because the Vulcan magically turns them into walking death machines. I'm sure if I wanted to I could tear it up nearly as easily with an Assault Rifle, especially when you factor in the heat ignoring abilities of Assault.

Would I still be OP if I did_ You seem to have no problems with the Assault Rifle, after all.

Zeshi, on November 13 2012 - 01:08 PM, said:

3. I said game plan SIGNIFICANTLY more. Please read more closely in the future. That means you have to be more worried about a Vulcan than an AR when they should both be viable options.

And they are. Aside from a few things, a Vulcan-wielding Brawler and an Assault are very similar:

• The Brawler will have an edge in armor of at least 175, and possibly more. They will also have a decrease in speed and momentum.
  
• The Vulcan will do more up-front damage, the AR will do slower but more steady damage.
  
• The Assault can ignore his heat if he needs to; the Vulcan has no such luxury.

So in short_ Play the Vulcan user like an Assault+. You don't charge Assaults and you don't charge Vulcans either. You try to take them out from a reasonable range and you get evasive in a big way. There's no magic formula for defeating either of them here except for playing smart and making use of cover. It's why I said, ultimately, due to the heat-removing ability, the Assault is actualy the superior class over the Vulcan, because while the Vulcan will dish it quicker, the Assault, if need be, can fire it non-stop (including TOW Rockets, which more than make up for the damage decrease!) for up to 22.5 seconds, and he can do it again every sixty seconds. So even though the Vulcan does more up-front damage, in the end, all the Assault user has to do is make use of his ability and voila - he can out-do the Vulcan because the Vulcan user simply put can't use TOW + Vulcan at the same time, whereas the Assault gets 10 free seconds to use both just as much as he wants.

That's not what I'd call a "significant strategy shift." That's what I'd call "thinking about the meta-game" which is what I do quite a bit and it's why I ultimately said Assault is the superior class. To you this is a joke, but you did not look into things as deeply as I do.

Zeshi, on November 13 2012 - 01:08 PM, said:

Now I'mdone arguing with the brick wall.

I'm sorry you don't like someone who has a different opinion than you. But I feel the Vulcan, while powerful, is not nearly as game-breakingly bad as you hold it to be. It can be countered, you just need to use skill and a bit of planning to do it, and make use of every tool at your disposal. It is not my fault if you do not wish to (or cannot) do so, and I do not wish to have a weapon nerfed because of people who cannot, as if it does get nerfed to the point of uselessness, I'll just go to my Assault class and do nearly the same thing except for slightly more slowly (and a fair bit less obviously - thus more dangerously - given that the Assault Rifle will never turn heads quite like a Vulcan will).

Cmon man, you just had to draw me back in.

1. I'm actually a pretty good pilot and can beat (some) Vulcan users using poke tactics. The issue is that those poke tactics work just the same against an AR or smg user, and those weapons are undeniably weaker than the vulcan.

2. I've been simply comparing the AR and vulcan, not bringing class into it. You know other classes besides the assault use the AR as well right_

3. For the last time, the Vulcan generates more heat but it has even greater heat effencincy than both ther AR or smg. If it was to be a "high damage high heat weapon" it would need to be something like generate max heat in 6 seconds, but deal out 700 damage in those 6 seconds.   Currently its not a trade off. You get better heat effencicy and much better dps.

4. "Nerfing a weapon should never be the answer" . Ok, so i guess if their was a, lets say, flamethrower secondary weapon in the game that did 400 dps and generated heat on the opponent you would just tell people to deal with it and "learn to counter it_"

5. Adjusting how good/bad weapons are is not how you "wreck balance". Quite the opposite in fact, its how you achieve it.

6. The AR will not do steadier damage than the vulcan, just significantly slower damage. They both are just point and track.

7. The brick wall comment is the result of you continuing to argue in spite of the fact that the Vulcan does more damage, in a shorter amount of time, and with a higher heat efficiency, than the AR or smg while having no significant disadvantage/counter that the AR and smg do not have.

8. I have never once claimed it is "game breakingly bad" (even though if the Vulcan is left completely as is i will not play in the final product. which is a shame because i am quite a fan)

Edited by Zeshi, November 13 2012 - 03:41 PM.

[D20Face]

Honestly I'm fine with the damage and heat numbers where they are.

Range should be the defining balance point. Vulcan for close, SMG/AR for medium, Heat/Slug for long.

Since we don't know what those numbers are I refuse to argue how balanced they are.

tl;dr Balance isn't just dps.

Edited by D20Face, November 13 2012 - 03:49 PM.

[NotKjell]

D20Face, on November 13 2012 - 03:49 PM, said:

HEAT for close, HEAT for medium, HEAT for long.

Fixed XD. ignore me, being dumb

D20Face, on November 13 2012 - 03:49 PM, said:

tl;dr Balance isn't just dps.

Seriously though, this is very true. I do feel the vulcan is a bit too powerful, but increasing it's spread could also be a nice balance. Again, there's a weird point because at the moment I don't feel the vulcan would rule high-level play. Be used for sure, but it would be more balanced. However it's more than a bit dumb at the normal public play level. Most nerfs that would reduce the vulcan to be publicly balanced would make it useless at a higher level.

[Entity]

I've played many games with my vulcan brawler, and in one, a guy even started acting rather uncivilized. I then decided to "entertain" this person by switching back to the flak, and still got out on top in that match with a similar score I would have gotten with the vulcan.

I will say the vulcan is quite possibly a bit OP but only because of its spread being that small. I have no issues "sniping" people with it at medium to long range.

That said, I got my rear handed to me on many occasions by good berzerker and infiltrator pilots making good use of cover and not engaging me in open areas. With the slower brawler it's quite a challenge to win the peekaboo duels.

Now, the vulcan on the assault and berserker is an entirely different story

[DarkPulse]

Zeshi, on November 13 2012 - 03:37 PM, said:

1. I'm actually a pretty good pilot and can beat (some) Vulcan users using poke tactics. The issue is that those poke tactics work just the same against an AR or smg user, and those weapons are undeniably weaker than the vulcan.

But that's how you beat high-ROF weapons, period - by not standing there and getting shot. The fact that it's Vulcan, AR, or SMC has nothing to do with this - the simple fact is they live or die by Line-of-Sight, and if you can keep that minimized, you can beat them as long as you got adequate cover and play smart. On the other hand, if you rush them, then yes you're going to get your butt kicked.

This is why, by the way, I'm all for removing it from A-Class and B-Class. There the maneuverability of the A-Class and the heat-killing abilities of Assault absolutely combine to make it OP. But in both those cases, the simpler solution is to simply not let it be equipped on those classes (...Hmm, there's an idea, devs. Make it so that guns, items, and internals have classes of mechs they can be equipped on...) rather than just nerfing the Vulcan. It's fine as it is on the C-Class because you expect the C-Class to be slow, powerful, and hulking in general, but a speedier mech (especially an A-Class) can give it serious trouble.

Zeshi, on November 13 2012 - 03:37 PM, said:

2. I've been simply comparing the AR and vulcan, not bringing class into it. You know other classes besides the assault use the AR as well right_

Sure, but those classes don't have the heat-killing ability the Assault does. They're not designed for sustained fire, like the Assault is, and that's what the Vulcan-using C-Class is most akin to.

Zeshi, on November 13 2012 - 03:37 PM, said:

3. For the last time, the Vulcan generates more heat but it has even greater heat effencincy than both ther AR or smg. If it was to be a "high damage high heat weapon" it would need to be something like generate max heat in 6 seconds, but deal out 700 damage in those 6 seconds.   Currently its not a trade off. You get better heat effencicy and much better dps.

Not going to deny it does better DPS (that's its job, after all) but there's still the fact that it assumes perfect hits - which, in practice, do not happen. Not every shot is going to land and any smart player begins evading like crazy if they hear a Vulcan spin-up. In both of these cases, the AR and the SMC is much more forgiving, since they generate less heat, and unlike the Vulcan, effectively have no spin-up time. (While they do have WarmUpTimes listed in the files, there's also an explicit comment next to both - "This is a special case, the weapon starts firing right away.") A Vulcan user who can't keep the crosshair on the enemy is in way more trouble than a AR or SMC user, and if the weapon ever does fully spin down, it's a half-second delay before they can spin it back up and begin firing.

The Vulcan has better heat efficiency with perfect aim, but humans aren't perfect. Even really good shots probably only make 70-80% hit.

Zeshi, on November 13 2012 - 03:37 PM, said:

4. "Nerfing a weapon should never be the answer" . Ok, so i guess if their was a, lets say, flamethrower secondary weapon in the game that did 400 dps and generated heat on the opponent you would just tell people to deal with it and "learn to counter it_"

I actually thought about making such a weapon (a heat-generating weapon) as a suggestion the other day, to be honest.

400 DPS, however, would be incredibly overkill, so if you're going to use such an example, use one that makes sense. My idea was actually more of a support weapon - it did no damage, but it increased the opponent's heat.

Plus, a flamethrower would have a range limitation, so yes, countering it would be as simple as getting out of range.

Zeshi, on November 13 2012 - 03:37 PM, said:

5. Adjusting how good/bad weapons are is not how you "wreck balance". Quite the opposite in fact, its how you achieve it.

But adjusting them to the point where there's no reason to get it is, indeed, how you wreck balance.

Put it this way. Let's say you tone down the Vulcan It loses three points of damage, and gains 0.015 seconds of refire delay - still faster than AR, and still better in heat.

• Assault Rifle: ROF 0.135 seconds, 1.08 heat per bullet, 12 damage per bullet (~7.4 shots/second, 8 heat/second, 88.88... damage/second). 1,111.11... damage in 12.5 seconds.
  
• Point-D Vulcan (with tweak): ROF 0.120 seconds, 1.05 heat per bullet, 11 damage per bullet (~8.3 shots/second, 8.75 heat/second, 91.66... damage/second). 1100 damage in 12 seconds.

How would you ever justify spending 3750 HP on it if you've got a class that can already use the AR and get nearly the same results_ The answer is, you wouldn't - not when the AR does nearly the exact same performance. Comparatively, the Vulcan spits out more bullets and does very slightly more damage with the nerf still - but it's nerfed enough that it's worthless in comparsion, and if they had the choice between the Vulcan or the AR, players who are smart would pick the AR because the Vulcan is way more noticeable while doing nearly the same overall damage.

It then literally becomes a weapon almost nobody uses (a fate that's already befallen the SA Hawkins).

Zeshi, on November 13 2012 - 03:37 PM, said:

6. The AR will not do steadier damage than the vulcan, just significantly slower damage. They both are just point and track.

It does do steadier damage because, ultimately, it's much more forgiving of missed shots than the Vulcan is. Vulcan users have to factor in a spin-up (which is necessary for any sort of real cool-down) and they also have to make much more of their hits count as the AR does have a superior spread, with a relatively predictable spread increase.

Zeshi, on November 13 2012 - 03:37 PM, said:

7. The brick wall comment is the result of you continuing to argue in spite of the fact that the Vulcan does more damage, in a shorter amount of time, and with a higher heat efficiency, than the AR or smg while having no significant disadvantage/counter that the AR and smg do not have.

Much more noticeable, has to be purchased, is eventually going to be limited to the slowest, bulkiest, hardest-hitting mechs... players are not going to be happy if they spend 3750 Hawken Points on something that's ultimately a "slightly-better-than-regular AR."

If people spend 3750 HP on a gun, they're going to expect something that can do some serious firepower. Flak, HEAT Cannon, and so on all pack some wallop - those are the sorts of weapons you can buy. Too much nerfing of the Vulcan will lower it to the point that it's basically a slightly (and not statistically significant) better AR and it essentially becomes a waste of Hawken Points.

Zeshi, on November 13 2012 - 03:37 PM, said:

8. I have never once claimed it is "game breakingly bad" (even though if the Vulcan is left completely as is i will not play in the final product. which is a shame because i am quite a fan)

Your own words just betrayed you. If you didn't think it wasn't game-breakingly bad, why will you refuse to play the game because of its mere presence, without a tweak_

The thing is you have to balance a weapon against other weapons in its class (which is the heavy weapons class, NOT automatic guns), you have to balance the effort taken to obtain it (sidegrade or not, it does need to differentiate itself), and the player needs to feel like it isn't the exact same gun with a different skin. If this is restricted to C-Class, you're already going to see a lot less of it, and it's a distinct risk/reward tradeoff - it's loud, it's obvious, and it should tell you to be ready to be on your toes.

Ergo, while it's devastating, it's also not un-counterable, and it's not going to turn you into a magical stomping machine if you don't have an idea of what you're doing (merely reaching Level 20 is no sign of skill). So ultimately, I feel it's fine as-is, because believe me, does using this thing ever make you a target against someone who knows what they're doing.

[KaszaWspraju]

Rather, it is obvious "Vulcan" is little bit of OP.

Now describe one of the matches I played as Assault Mech in Sige mode - map Sahara.

bzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz fuzuuzyshhhhhhhhhh bzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz, use ability Assault Mech, bbbbbzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz. fbbfuzshsssssssssss bzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz, and so on.

Effect 30:0, I am sure that the "ar" and "smg" would not gave me this result. I assumes that i will be end of 25:3 or 23:6 score.

Edited by KaszaWspraju, November 13 2012 - 04:48 PM.