64 replies to this topic

[3Jane]

D20Face, on November 14 2012 - 07:01 AM, said:

3Jane, on November 14 2012 - 06:07 AM, said:

For every other class there are no disadvantages to using their ability. If you feel you might die there is absolutely no reason not to use the ability, but the same cannot be said for C Class.

And every other class has, at best, a 10% boost.

Turret modes gives you a wopping 35% damage reduction.

A boost is a boost for other classes, there are no drawbacks to being invisible, have unlimited cooling or increased damage.

Post almost feels like a troll man, just read the post of above of the guy Hipnox listing the drawbacks.. 35% damage reduction is nothing when its almost certain that someone can hit you

[defekt]

Gont, on November 14 2012 - 07:00 AM, said:

I think that those shields that c-class shields should be deployed much faster than now. Movement speed penalty shouldn't be higher than 50%. They could have own health pool and get destroyed (or retracted) when sustaining enough damage. They could even obscure vision with their bulkiness, that would give a tanky feeling to those mechs.

That’s missing the point slightly, and even though I’ve suggested similar things myself this suggestion would still result in a ‘trade-off’ ability that none of the other classes of mech need to suffer.  Plug a weakness (a speed boost) or enhance a strength (damage boost).  Or do a bit of both and let that bulldozer blitz roll!

[oSPANNERo]

defekt, on November 12 2012 - 08:45 AM, said:

The Brawler for example, is all about staying mobile; the moment you stop you’re dead.  I would like to see those armoured baffles semi-deployable as a form of riot shield that bestows 30% damage mitigation from the forward arc at the cost of cockpit visibility, 50% dash distance and turn speed (no general speed reduction – makes no sense to slow it down if it can move normally carrying the same weight in ‘walk’ mode).

I *LOVE* the idead but I am not sure I agree there would be no movement penalty if I had a shield deployed in a "riot" configuration.

If we are thinking IRL about this, when I am carrying something like a riot shield I am probably going to strap it to my back so that its out of the way and closer to my center of gravity. However, when I am actively using it, the shield is out infront of me:

1) Obscuring my vision (you mentioned this)
2) About a foot away from my body to absorb shock (This changes my center of balance)
3) Getting in the way of my legs/feet (it would be a crappy riot shield if it didn't at least come to my knees)
4) Changing my stance (If I took a good shot to a riot shield and I wasn't in a semi "braced" stance it would knock me on my butt)

This all affects my mobility directly. Not to mention I have never seen anyone even *attempt* to run with a "deployed" riot shield. Its usually short choppy steps forward so that you maintain a solid base.

Now apply that to a mech. I would argue it would do all the same things. Even if you were using the boosters/thrusters, you would have to contend with #2 and #4. Otherwise, if you were boosting and got hit, it should knock you on your 4th point of contact!

defekt, on November 14 2012 - 05:15 AM, said:

knorp, on November 14 2012 - 04:54 AM, said:

defekt, on November 12 2012 - 08:45 AM, said:

The Brawler for example, is all about staying mobile; the moment you stop you’re dead.  I would like to see those armoured baffles semi-deployable as a form of riot shield that bestows 30% damage mitigation from the forward arc at the cost of cockpit visibility, 50% dash distance and turn speed (no general speed reduction – makes no sense to slow it down if it can move normally carrying the same weight in ‘walk’ mode).

This !

As an hotfix, turret mode should just be granted PROPER damage reduction, like 90% ! 10 % of the currently received damage everytime you go "oh I'm bored, let's try it again, this time I have the perfect corner spot, I should be able to last at least 10...KABOOM" will still kill you in a matter of seconds. At least, make it so you can force an enemy to actually run, not just turn around you laughing and blasting this HUGE, STATIC target (yeah, you in turret mode). More damage reduction, and I could handle it, sitting at a safe distance; can't tell about the brawler which I haven't tried, but Rocketer is perfectly fine at range. Well, make turret mode kind of immune to sharpshooter fuzzy bunny, maybe...

Also like the supergun idea.

I've gone off the idea of a riot shield now.  (Fickle_  Never.  I just know a better idea when I see it.  I'm not proud!)  I'd like to see a bulldozer blade charge instead!


. . . . . .[TTo  -
. . . . . .(_      

Juodvarnis, on November 14 2012 - 06:05 AM, said:

I want the bulldozer charge too!

Along with a loud metal scraping sound!

This sounds pretty awesome but what would the "penalty" be for using this kind of configuration/ability_ Maybe the "scraping" should do some self-inflicted damage_ (Maybe slightly disproportional to fall damage_) Would you have to put away your "big gun" before doing the dash_ Would it cause your aim to go all wonky for X seconds after the dash_

I can just see people converting to fortress with the 3rd "big gun" and just bulldozing their way across the map if there weren't some kind of penalty beyond repair issues.

Just my two pennys...

Edited by oSPANNERo, November 14 2012 - 07:26 AM.

[D20Face]

3Jane, on November 14 2012 - 07:09 AM, said:

D20Face, on November 14 2012 - 07:01 AM, said:

3Jane, on November 14 2012 - 06:07 AM, said:

For every other class there are no disadvantages to using their ability. If you feel you might die there is absolutely no reason not to use the ability, but the same cannot be said for C Class.

And every other class has, at best, a 10% boost.

Turret modes gives you a wopping 35% damage reduction.

Post almost feels like a troll man, just read the post of above of the guy Hipnox listing the drawbacks.. 35% damage reduction is nothing when its almost certain that someone can hit you

It's always certain that somebody can hit you when there isn't a wall between you. Hawken is a shooter in slow motion.

The only thing I'd be worried about is whether or not turret mode is bugged in it's current state, not reducing as much damage as it should be.

[defekt]

oSPANNERo, on November 14 2012 - 07:19 AM, said:

This sounds pretty awesome [bulldozer clitz] but what would the "penalty" be for using this kind of configuration/ability_ Maybe the "scraping" should do some self-inflicted damage_ (Maybe slightly disproportional to fall damage_) Would you have to put away your "big gun" before doing the dash_ Would it cause your aim to go all wonky for X seconds after the dash_

To clarify, Brawler: bulldozer blitz with no 3^rd gun.  Maybe a Rocketeer ability might incorporate the 3^rd gun idea.

As for trade-offs, why should there be any trade-offs_  None of the other mech special abilities are trade-offs.  Keeping a close eye on its effectiveness would of course be important.

[3Jane]

D20Face, on November 14 2012 - 07:23 AM, said:

3Jane, on November 14 2012 - 07:09 AM, said:

D20Face, on November 14 2012 - 07:01 AM, said:

3Jane, on November 14 2012 - 06:07 AM, said:

For every other class there are no disadvantages to using their ability. If you feel you might die there is absolutely no reason not to use the ability, but the same cannot be said for C Class.

And every other class has, at best, a 10% boost.

Turret modes gives you a wopping 35% damage reduction.

Post almost feels like a troll man, just read the post of above of the guy Hipnox listing the drawbacks.. 35% damage reduction is nothing when its almost certain that someone can hit you

It's always certain that somebody can hit you when there isn't a wall between you. Hawken is a shooter in slow motion.

The only thing I'd be worried about is whether or not turret mode is bugged in it's current state, not reducing as much damage as it should be.

Would be true if aiming/turning in hawken wasn't inhibited and there was no aim shake, camera shake, bullet spread slow projectiles etc etc.

Look forward to seeing you post a video of you hitting 100% in the open.

[DM30]

D20Face, on November 14 2012 - 07:01 AM, said:

3Jane, on November 14 2012 - 06:07 AM, said:

For every other class there are no disadvantages to using their ability. If you feel you might die there is absolutely no reason not to use the ability, but the same cannot be said for C Class.

And every other class has, at best, a 10% boost.

Turret modes gives you a wopping 35% damage reduction.

Ooh, 35%! That will make up for about half the health that a C-class mech loses while it's in transition.

I agree, there's no win to using the C-class's ability. Sure, you get damage reduction, but not a heck of a lot in reality, from one side only, and not enough to make up for being an impossible to miss target. Personally, my suggestions for fixing it might be the following:

1) Speed up the deployment of the shields, and/or don't kill movement ability while doing so. Maybe have it so that the weapons can't fire while deploying, but have the mech still be able to move around to get out of the line of fire or dodge at least a little bit.

2) Do away with the huge field of view decrease while in turret mode. Maybe just have some sort of drop-down screen that comes over your windscreen to present a video image of what the shields block out. It will still restrict your view a little, but not so much that it's super easy to sneak up on you.

3) Allow the use of jets while in turret mode. Not to lift you off the ground of course (since the centre of balance is shifted so far forward that the mech would just do a somersault), but just to let it counter the weight of the shields to grant you greater movement speed, possibly all the way back to movement speed without being deployed, or even just a touch better.

4) Have no mobility penalty for de-turreting, because as it is if you go into turret mode in a firefight, you're trapped in it until you either win or die. If your health gets low, trying to de-turret is a guaranteed death sentence. Make de-turreting quick, with no delay before getting back up to full mobility and the ability to dodge/boost for cover.

Aside from that, maybe some sort of turret gun or buff for your primary weapon would also be cool, but I feel like it wouldn't be necessary if the rest of these were in place.

Edited by DM30, November 14 2012 - 07:31 AM.

[oSPANNERo]

defekt, on November 14 2012 - 07:28 AM, said:

oSPANNERo, on November 14 2012 - 07:19 AM, said:

This sounds pretty awesome [bulldozer clitz] but what would the "penalty" be for using this kind of configuration/ability_ Maybe the "scraping" should do some self-inflicted damage_ (Maybe slightly disproportional to fall damage_) Would you have to put away your "big gun" before doing the dash_ Would it cause your aim to go all wonky for X seconds after the dash_

To clarify, Brawler: bulldozer blitz with no 3^rd gun.  Maybe a Rocketeer ability might incorporate the 3^rd gun idea.

As for trade-offs, why should there be any trade-offs_  None of the other mech special abilities are trade-offs.  Keeping a close eye on its effectiveness would of course be important.

So Brawler would have 3 configurations then:

1) Normal (shield stowed, no mobility penalty )
2) Riot (shield deployed but mildly reduced mobility)
3) Bulldozer ( fortress but with severely reduced mobility)

Could the primary and secondary weapons be used simultaneously (or at all) in modes 2 and 3_

Edited by oSPANNERo, November 14 2012 - 07:40 AM.

[oSPANNERo]

defekt, on November 14 2012 - 07:28 AM, said:

Maybe a Rocketeer ability might incorporate the 3^rd gun idea.

Yeah... maybe its less about a "3rd gun" and more about "3rd firing option"_ Basically the Rocketeer, when in fortress configuration, could fire a larger battery of missles_

Think TOW missile vs. M270 MLRS: http://en.wikipedia....h_Rocket_System

The MLRS is way bigger and badder but can't fire "on the move".

[defekt]

oSPANNERo, on November 14 2012 - 07:31 AM, said:

defekt, on November 14 2012 - 07:28 AM, said:

oSPANNERo, on November 14 2012 - 07:19 AM, said:

This sounds pretty awesome [bulldozer clitz] but what would the "penalty" be for using this kind of configuration/ability_ Maybe the "scraping" should do some self-inflicted damage_ (Maybe slightly disproportional to fall damage_) Would you have to put away your "big gun" before doing the dash_ Would it cause your aim to go all wonky for X seconds after the dash_

To clarify, Brawler: bulldozer blitz with no 3^rd gun.  Maybe a Rocketeer ability might incorporate the 3^rd gun idea.

As for trade-offs, why should there be any trade-offs_  None of the other mech special abilities are trade-offs.  Keeping a close eye on its effectiveness would of course be important.

So Brawler would have 3 configurations then:

1) Normal (no shield)
2) Riot (shield deployed but mobile)
3) Bulldozer (basically a fortress but with boost)

Could the primary and secondary weapons be used simultaneously (or at all) in modes 2 and 3_

Either your getting confused, I'm explaining this very badly or it's a combination of the two.  I’m advocating replacing the current turret abilities completely, lock, stock and several smoking barrels, as per the following:-

Brawler ability: Blitz

Mech near-instantly drops bulldozer blade armour baffles and surges forward causing damage and a knockback effect to all mechs impacted upon (including friendlies).  At the end of the charge the mech quickly lifts the blades and resumes normal function.

Rocketeer ability: <3rd gun idea>

<details about what the third gun is when deployed>

To be completely honest with you I’m not sold on the 3^rd gun idea but this is the 3^rd gun idea thread so I’ve got to at least acknowledge it.  

[defekt]

oSPANNERo, on November 14 2012 - 07:38 AM, said:

defekt, on November 14 2012 - 07:28 AM, said:

Maybe a Rocketeer ability might incorporate the 3^rd gun idea.

Yeah... maybe its less about a "3rd gun" and more about "3rd firing option"_ Basically the Rocketeer, when in fortress configuration, could fire a larger battery of missles_

Think TOW missile vs. M270 MLRS: http://en.wikipedia....h_Rocket_System

The MLRS is way bigger and badder but can't fire "on the move".

Is raw firepower an attractive alternative to being an sitting duck_  I like it, it's definitely an improvement, but I'm still not sold on the idea that more guns does enough/anything to solve what's fundamentally wrong with the C-class abilities as they are right now.

Edit: Perhaps an ability that has the mech hold back, hunker down and lob out missile barrages like that is appealing to the Rocketeer pilots.  Having never used the thing I’d not like to hazard a guess at where its strengths are.  Some have said that it’s mostly a support machine, so perhaps a hunker-chucker ability would be useful.

Edited by defekt, November 14 2012 - 07:51 AM.

[oSPANNERo]

DM30, on November 14 2012 - 07:29 AM, said:

D20Face, on November 14 2012 - 07:01 AM, said:

3Jane, on November 14 2012 - 06:07 AM, said:

For every other class there are no disadvantages to using their ability. If you feel you might die there is absolutely no reason not to use the ability, but the same cannot be said for C Class.

And every other class has, at best, a 10% boost.

Turret modes gives you a wopping 35% damage reduction.

Ooh, 35%! That will make up for about half the health that a C-class mech loses while it's in transition.

I agree, there's no win to using the C-class's ability. Sure, you get damage reduction, but not a heck of a lot in reality, from one side only, and not enough to make up for being an impossible to miss target. Personally, my suggestions for fixing it might be the following:

1) Speed up the deployment of the shields, and/or don't kill movement ability while doing so. Maybe have it so that the weapons can't fire while deploying, but have the mech still be able to move around to get out of the line of fire or dodge at least a little bit.

2) Do away with the huge field of view decrease while in turret mode. Maybe just have some sort of drop-down screen that comes over your windscreen to present a video image of what the shields block out. It will still restrict your view a little, but not so much that it's super easy to sneak up on you.

3) Allow the use of jets while in turret mode. Not to lift you off the ground of course (since the centre of balance is shifted so far forward that the mech would just do a somersault), but just to let it counter the weight of the shields to grant you greater movement speed, possibly all the way back to movement speed without being deployed, or even just a touch better.

4) Have no mobility penalty for de-turreting, because as it is if you go into turret mode in a firefight, you're trapped in it until you either win or die. If your health gets low, trying to de-turret is a guaranteed death sentence. Make de-turreting quick, with no delay before getting back up to full mobility and the ability to dodge/boost for cover.

Aside from that, maybe some sort of turret gun or buff for your primary weapon would also be cool, but I feel like it wouldn't be necessary if the rest of these were in place.

Ya know... this pulls me in both directions. As a "game" I agree with this list entirely. If the C-Class is to be considered truly independent and an "equal match" 1:1 with the others all of the above need to be addressed. (I am thinking Transformer/Gundam/Autobot style transitions.)

However keeping it semi true to IRL, I feel like all of these are pretty much "normal" limitations for the process. A unit like a C-Class would never be off wandering solo or even as an assault unit. Just thinking about it, it sounds like most of the problems would be mitigated just by thinking that the C-Class should *NEVER EVER* be alone and probably not on the front line. Instead it should have an A or B Class, or two or three, kicking around "protecting" it.

Man... its almost "Arcade" vs "Strategy" decision IMHO at this point.

[oSPANNERo]

defekt, on November 14 2012 - 07:42 AM, said:

Brawler ability: Blitz

Mech near-instantly drops bulldozer blade armour baffles and surges forward causing damage and a knockback effect to all mechs impacted upon (including friendlies).  At the end of the charge the mech quickly lifts the blades and resumes normal function.

Rocketeer ability: <3rd gun idea>

<details about what the third gun is when deployed>

Got it!  Yeah, I think I was being thick and hung up on the Riot idea. (Because I liked it so much!) Maybe split it off to a configuration option where you can choose either "Riot" or "Blitz" in the garage. (Or just spin it off as a different Mech all together.)

Just not sure I like the "near instantly" idea for deploying the dozer... might be too arcade for me.

defekt, on November 14 2012 - 07:48 AM, said:

Is raw firepower an attractive alternative to being an sitting duck_  I like it, it's definitely an improvement, but I'm still not sold on the idea that more guns does enough/anything to solve what's fundamentally wrong with the C-class abilities as they are right now.

Edit: Perhaps an ability that has the mech hold back, hunker down and lob out missile barrages like that is appealing to the Rocketeer pilots.  Having never used the thing I’d not like to hazard a guess at where its strengths are.  Some have said that it’s mostly a support machine, so perhaps a hunker-chucker ability would be useful.

Yep... your edit nailed exactly what I was thinking and talked about here:

oSPANNERo, on November 14 2012 - 07:49 AM, said:

Ya know... this pulls me in both directions. As a "game" I agree with this list entirely. If the C-Class is to be considered truly independent and an "equal match" 1:1 with the others all of the above need to be addressed. (I am thinking Transformer/Gundam/Autobot style transitions.)

However keeping it semi true to IRL, I feel like all of these are pretty much "normal" limitations for the process. A unit like a C-Class would never be off wandering solo or even as an assault unit. Just thinking about it, it sounds like most of the problems would be mitigated just by thinking that the C-Class should *NEVER EVER* be alone and probably not on the front line. Instead it should have an A or B Class, or two or three, kicking around "protecting" it.

Man... its almost "Arcade" vs "Strategy" decision IMHO at this point.

[defekt]

oSPANNERo, on November 14 2012 - 07:49 AM, said:

However keeping it semi true to IRL, I feel like all of these are pretty much "normal" limitations for the process. A unit like a C-Class would never be off wandering solo or even as an assault unit. Just thinking about it, it sounds like most of the problems would be mitigated just by thinking that the C-Class should *NEVER EVER* be alone and probably not on the front line. Instead it should have an A or B Class, or two or three, kicking around "protecting" it.

Man... its almost "Arcade" vs "Strategy" decision IMHO at this point.

You're dead right, and it works in practice too.  There are few things more effective than a C-class supporting a couple of A/B-class mechs.  It’s all about team composition and once the game settles down it will be important factors such as this that will begin to define the metagame.  A lonely C-class is often a soon-to-be-dead C-class, more so than would be true for any other mech class (almost entirely because it can’t escape from a competent A/B attack).

[3Jane]

The real problem with any turret mode is it has so many limitations if movement is negated and there is a setup time. Currently turret mode only guarantees free damage to your enemy.

All other abilities can be used instantaneously in any situation that you need a kill. Fairness/balance/gameplay dictates something similar for C class, not something you'd only use in Siege/Missile Assault. An ability that is universally useful in a fight.

While logic would suggest ordnance/turret/support abilities, as you are discussing.

Edited by 3Jane, November 14 2012 - 08:05 AM.

[defekt]

oSPANNERo, on November 14 2012 - 07:57 AM, said:

defekt, on November 14 2012 - 07:42 AM, said:

Brawler ability: Blitz

Mech near-instantly drops bulldozer blade armour baffles and surges forward causing damage and a knockback effect to all mechs impacted upon (including friendlies).  At the end of the charge the mech quickly lifts the blades and resumes normal function.

Just not sure I like the "near instantly" idea for deploying the dozer... might be too arcade for me.

That's a fair point.  The thinking behind that comment was two-fold: i) C-class abilities don’t need to be trade-offs and ii) it mustn’t break the suspension of disbelief.  Point (i) is satisfied from the established precedent that none of the other mech abilities are trade-offs, and point (ii) could be satisfied with the application of rocket assist motors fitted to the rim of the blades that fire and slam the blades down rapidly*, the mech then afterburns its thrusters and physics does the rest!

* If nothing else its an opportunity to apply some funky looking SFX.

[Hipnox]

I think the real problem with Turret mode is that it's usefulness is not universal. Why do all C mechs have to have a turret mode variant_ Each other mech in the game has a unique ability: extra damage for SS, coolant for Berserk, cloack for infiltrator, etc..
But C classes are hardwired to have a turret mode variant. Why_ Can't there be a heavy mech WITHOUT turret mode_

Of the two C mech weapon configurations currently in the game, only the Rocketeer benefits somewhat from the ability to turret yourself because, like i said in the op, mobility is less important at range. (which is also why i believe the abilities should be switched around)

Giving Turret mode to the brawler was a mistake from the get go. Do they even played their own game_ CQC revolves around dashing like mad and going in and out of cover. A stationary target at CQC range is as good as dead.

[oSPANNERo]

3Jane, on November 14 2012 - 08:02 AM, said:

The real problem with any turret mode is it has so many limitations if movement is negated and there is a setup time. Currently turret mode only guarantees free damage to your enemy.

Fairness/balance/gameplay dictates something similar for C class, not something you'd only use in Siege/Missile Assault. An ability that is universally useful in a fight.

While logic would suggest ordnance/turret/support abilities, as you are discussing.

I wonder if we could think of a C-Class Rocketeer the same way we think of the Sniper mech except using an area weapon_ Need to put it up high with a great field of view and its back against a wall.

Then mitigate the movement, setup time, and field of vision of the fortress mode with something like a 60% reduction in damage from the front, 35% damage reduction from the sides, 0% reduction from the top and back (Grenade anyone_) and give it the MLRS firepower. (Would even be better if FF/TK was enabled because you would have to use some sound judgement to pull the trigger.)

This is not unprecedented since the Sniper is basically the polar opposite on the configuration spectrum: Very mobile, point weapon, but hyper allergic to incoming Steel/HE.

The other mechs would almost "need" the setup time to dissuade the Rocketeer from getting in place. Otherwise its going to pose a very unique tactical problem on the map.

[oSPANNERo]

defekt, on November 14 2012 - 08:08 AM, said:

That's a fair point.  The thinking behind that comment was two-fold: i) C-class abilities don’t need to be trade-offs and ii) it mustn’t break the suspension of disbelief.  Point (i) is satisfied from the established precedent that none of the other mech abilities are trade-offs, and point (ii) could be satisfied with the application of rocket assist motors fitted to the rim of the blades that fire and slam the blades down rapidly*, the mech then afterburns its thrusters and physics does the rest!

* If nothing else its an opportunity to apply some funky looking SFX.

That sounds awesome! And when the blade "slams" up or down it should rock the POV for a few half-seconds. Both for the visual effect and to give some "response time" where the dozer is a little weak.

[Nitris]

Having a gigantic cannon on the top of a C class in turret mode is reason enough for me to use turret mode.

I'd finally have a reason to bellow "YARR!! EAT MY CANNON!!" and other such shenanigans.

Edited by Nitris, November 14 2012 - 08:27 AM.