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Turret mode should deploy a third, bigger gun


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#41 Gont

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Posted November 14 2012 - 08:37 AM

View Postdefekt, on November 14 2012 - 07:14 AM, said:

View PostGont, on November 14 2012 - 07:00 AM, said:

I think that those shields that c-class shields should be deployed much faster than now. Movement speed penalty shouldn't be higher than 50%. They could have own health pool and get destroyed (or retracted) when sustaining enough damage. They could even obscure vision with their bulkiness, that would give a tanky feeling to those mechs.
That’s missing the point slightly, and even though I’ve suggested similar things myself this suggestion would still result in a ‘trade-off’ ability that none of the other classes of mech need to suffer.  Plug a weakness (a speed boost) or enhance a strength (damage boost).  Or do a bit of both and let that bulldozer blitz roll!
I've assumed that devs want to keep the current idea of c-class special ability. Giving a blitzkrieg abilities to c-class may bring serious balance issues in the long term.

#42 defekt

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Posted November 14 2012 - 08:39 AM

View PostoSPANNERo, on November 14 2012 - 08:26 AM, said:

View Postdefekt, on November 14 2012 - 08:08 AM, said:

That's a fair point.  The thinking behind that comment was two-fold: i) C-class abilities don’t need to be trade-offs and ii) it mustn’t break the suspension of disbelief.  Point (i) is satisfied from the established precedent that none of the other mech abilities are trade-offs, and point (ii) could be satisfied with the application of rocket assist motors fitted to the rim of the blades that fire and slam the blades down rapidly*, the mech then afterburns its thrusters and physics does the rest!

* If nothing else its an opportunity to apply some funky looking SFX.
That sounds awesome! And when the blade "slams" up or down it should rock the POV for a few half-seconds. Both for the visual effect and to give some "response time" where the dozer is a little weak.
Something like that, yes.  I see it [Blitz] being used as a way to close with the enemy, as all Brawlers need to do, but in doing so mitigate a bit of damage on the way in (a current Brawler weakness) and have the chance to do a bit of damage and maybe cause a bit of disorganisation (knockback).  If it can be engaged swiftly enough it would be a viable, one-shot, forward thrust replacement.  The skill would come in judging when to engage the charge because you’d not want to fall short - unless you’re only after the damage mitigation dash aspect of the ability to traverse a killing field.

#43 defekt

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Posted November 14 2012 - 08:40 AM

View PostGont, on November 14 2012 - 08:37 AM, said:

View Postdefekt, on November 14 2012 - 07:14 AM, said:

View PostGont, on November 14 2012 - 07:00 AM, said:

I think that those shields that c-class shields should be deployed much faster than now. Movement speed penalty shouldn't be higher than 50%. They could have own health pool and get destroyed (or retracted) when sustaining enough damage. They could even obscure vision with their bulkiness, that would give a tanky feeling to those mechs.
That’s missing the point slightly, and even though I’ve suggested similar things myself this suggestion would still result in a ‘trade-off’ ability that none of the other classes of mech need to suffer.  Plug a weakness (a speed boost) or enhance a strength (damage boost).  Or do a bit of both and let that bulldozer blitz roll!
I've assumed that devs want to keep the current idea of c-class special ability. Giving a blitzkrieg abilities to c-class may bring serious balance issues in the long term.
All ideas are subject to the impact of the Balance Hammer™.  Blitz would be no exception.

#44 3Jane

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Posted November 14 2012 - 08:42 AM

Yeah I'm also afraid they plan on keeping it in.. its just so so useless in most situations.

#45 D20Face

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Posted November 14 2012 - 08:56 AM

View Post3Jane, on November 14 2012 - 07:29 AM, said:

Would be true if aiming/turning in hawken wasn't inhibited and there was no aim shake, camera shake, bullet spread slow projectiles etc etc.

Look forward to seeing you post a video of you hitting 100% in the open.
Aiming is responsive enough to follow a dodge. Camera shake isn't enough to stop you from hitting the massive mech hitboxes. Bullet spread is almost nonexistant outside sabot noscopes. Projectiles are still infinitely faster than mechs.

Hitting and missing isn't about aim, it's about dodging. Dodging isn't about confusing enemies, it's about pressing a button when you see a grenade.

I have terrible aim, and anybody who has played other shooters with me will back up. I still hit most of my shots in Hawken because aim means next to nothing. Good players with better aim than me will be looking at above 95% hit rates barring dodges.

A person in turret mode just gives up on dodge based mitigation in favor of number based mitigation. They can still hit with every single primary weapon and still outdps an opponent who uses both assuming the damage numbers work properly.

PS: Totally for bulldozer mode. Just sounds fun.

Edited by D20Face, November 14 2012 - 08:57 AM.


#46 3Jane

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Posted November 14 2012 - 09:06 AM

Can't say I agree with you. I was just parodying your troll manner man in that post man (:

#47 oSPANNERo

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Posted November 14 2012 - 09:09 AM

View PostHipnox, on November 14 2012 - 08:12 AM, said:

I think the real problem with Turret mode is that it's usefulness is not universal. Why do all C mechs have to have a turret mode variant_ Each other mech in the game has a unique ability: extra damage for SS, coolant for Berserk, cloack for infiltrator, etc..
But C classes are hardwired to have a turret mode variant. Why_ Can't there be a heavy mech WITHOUT turret mode_

Of the two C mech weapon configurations currently in the game, only the Rocketeer benefits somewhat from the ability to turret yourself because, like i said in the op, mobility is less important at range. (which is also why i believe the abilities should be switched around)

Giving Turret mode to the brawler was a mistake from the get go. Do they even played their own game_ CQC revolves around dashing like mad and going in and out of cover. A stationary target at CQC range is as good as dead.

I certainly agree with you and I think @defekt does/will too. Now we just gotta decide what the Brawler *should* have instead:

1) Dozer Attack
2) Riot Shield
3) Both (Different modes of the same special ability)
4) Either (Equipable in the garage.)

Because we all know those are the *ONLY* options! ;)

#48 oSPANNERo

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Posted November 14 2012 - 09:42 AM

View PostGont, on November 14 2012 - 08:37 AM, said:

View Postdefekt, on November 14 2012 - 07:14 AM, said:

View PostGont, on November 14 2012 - 07:00 AM, said:

I think that those shields that c-class shields should be deployed much faster than now. Movement speed penalty shouldn't be higher than 50%. They could have own health pool and get destroyed (or retracted) when sustaining enough damage. They could even obscure vision with their bulkiness, that would give a tanky feeling to those mechs.
That’s missing the point slightly, and even though I’ve suggested similar things myself this suggestion would still result in a ‘trade-off’ ability that none of the other classes of mech need to suffer.  Plug a weakness (a speed boost) or enhance a strength (damage boost).  Or do a bit of both and let that bulldozer blitz roll!
I've assumed that devs want to keep the current idea of c-class special ability. Giving a blitzkrieg abilities to c-class may bring serious balance issues in the long term.

I would imagine that Blitz ability would probably be tied to fuel availability since its just a forward dash except with a wall of spiked steel. Since you are using fuel for things like dodging, ascending, and generally moving around the board quickly I can't image a situation that using the Blitz would require some serious modification in how you played the game.

I also imagine that Blitzing might use 1.5x the fuel of dodging or ascending and maybe even add heat that you have to manage. Since "IRL" the blitz would need to be faster than a general dodge or ascension so would require more BOOST.

Other option is to have a recharge on the Blitz itself, almost like you had a "special" secondary fuel tank just for boosting but I am not sure that would make as much sense in the "Suspension of Disbelief" that @defekt mentioned earlier.

Any which way you look at it, there is always *something* you could do to balance out the mechs and keep it "realistic".

Edited by oSPANNERo, November 14 2012 - 09:47 AM.


#49 defekt

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Posted November 14 2012 - 09:46 AM

View PostoSPANNERo, on November 14 2012 - 09:42 AM, said:

Other option is to have a recharge on the Blitz itself, almost like you had a "special" secondary fuel tank just for boosting but I am not sure that would make as much sense in the "Suspension of Disbelief" that @defekt mentioned earlier.
Wouldn't the usual ability cooldown timer mechanic make for a convenient fulcrum point upon which to balance these factors_

#50 oSPANNERo

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Posted November 14 2012 - 09:53 AM

View Postdefekt, on November 14 2012 - 09:46 AM, said:

View PostoSPANNERo, on November 14 2012 - 09:42 AM, said:

Other option is to have a recharge on the Blitz itself, almost like you had a "special" secondary fuel tank just for boosting but I am not sure that would make as much sense in the "Suspension of Disbelief" that @defekt mentioned earlier.
Wouldn't the usual ability cooldown timer mechanic make for a convenient fulcrum point upon which to balance these factors_

Certainly an option and one that is available in game today.

I personally just never liked the arbitrary "cooldown" mechanism. Would much rather have it tied to something that is more user controllable and logical. "Because you ran out of fuel and you need to get more." or "Because you overheated and the mech is self protecting till it cools off." always makes me feel more satisfied than "Because the developers said this is the amount of time you have to wait."

For example, with the Blitz, if its tied to fuel, maybe I have the choice to do one long attack or two shorter ones back-to-back. I just have to keep an eye on my fuel levels. Whereas a "cool down timer" might prevent that saying that any use, short or long, is a use and it requires "cool down" time.

I would love for all the special abilities (http://hawken.wikia.com/wiki/Abilities) to be tied to some in-game, user manageable, metric but i think that is a different thread.

Guess I am one of those guys who never out grew the "Why_" stage of my life. ;)

Edited by oSPANNERo, November 14 2012 - 12:46 PM.


#51 Nitris

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Posted November 14 2012 - 05:06 PM

Interesting idea... How about tieing it to EU_
Currently the only game mode that utilizes it is Siege. If all the other game modes gave you a full tank of EU for you to use "special" abilities with on spawn, you could actually have a use for the +EU internal and optimisation outside of Siege mode.

In order to replenish your EU tanks, you'd have to kill someone else and suck up the juice they drop.

It would mean that in siege you'd have the option of doing some fancy abilities or dropping it into your base- making it more valuable, and also presenting a tactical/strategical decision.

As we know on respawn in Siege you take 10 EU from your base's reserve, and that even if you die without picking up any EU during your life, you will drop 10 EU.
So, if the first idea is a bid farfetched or perhaps too game changing, how about tie the abilities into that small amount of EU, rather than the main tank_ This small EU tank could be filled up simply by your mech's generator/engines over time. Maybe we could have internals and optimisations that increase the recharge rate of the EU, or even the max capacity (again of the mini EU tank, not the main tank)
Don't fight back. Fight forward.

#52 oSPANNERo

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Posted November 14 2012 - 07:03 PM

At the risk of completely derailing and hijacking the thread (Sorry @Hipnox, please forgive me):

Maybe the "mini tank" would be mech specific or at least special ability specific_ For some examples:

Blitz/Riot (Proposed) - Fuel for boosters
MLRS/3rd "Big Gun"/Enhanced Turret (Proposed) - Coolant (to cool down the launchers since the multiple rockets/big gun would create more heat load)
Camouflage - EU for Camo Generators
Weapons Coolant - Coolant

The hard ones for me would be:

Fortified Turret - Maybe its less about "Armor" and more about "Shield"_ Then EU would make sense. Or maybe its just about additional damage that the Armor can take and the repair drone would "automatically" repair the only the Special Ability Armor and not the Mech itself. So instead of a storage tank, it would be a damage meter for the Special Ability Armor.
Mobile Turret - Same as Fortified Turret

(However the existing Turret modes would be replaced with the proposed MLRS and Blitz abilities so it could be moot.)

Weapon Damage - Maybe EU if the rounds are "charged" in some way to make them more damaging_ Not sure what else would be "added" to give the rounds more damage...

#53 oSPANNERo

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Posted November 15 2012 - 07:15 AM

Looks like this thread isn't the only one thinking along these kinds of lines:

http://community.pla...__20#entry93739

#54 Hipnox

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Posted November 15 2012 - 08:23 AM

View PostoSPANNERo, on November 15 2012 - 07:15 AM, said:

Looks like this thread isn't the only one thinking along these kinds of lines:

http://community.pla...__20#entry93739

Both threads where started by me...

#55 GunsnButter

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Posted November 15 2012 - 11:42 AM

Might have been mentioned already, but a free MG / Rocket turret mounted on top that deploys in turret mode would be neat.

#56 3Jane

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Posted November 15 2012 - 11:47 AM

Hahaha Guns thats quite a funny idea, at least in my head it looks funny.

Personally I'm all for a charge attack for Brawlers. Totally fits with the style, or 10 seconds of the upper chassis reducing damage from the front. Would be sweet and still feel really cool. Thats one of the things I hate about Turret mode, it looks so freaking awful.

#57 defekt

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Posted November 15 2012 - 11:53 AM

View Post3Jane, on November 15 2012 - 11:47 AM, said:

Thats one of the things I hate about Turret mode, it looks so freaking awful.
Agreed.  Every other aspect of the game's design is bang on but those turrets look like they've taken an ill-advised speederbike ride through the ugly forest, and the way that they slowly slide around like they're on ice only exacerbates the problem for me.

Mind you, I now have huge, sparking, afterburner-powered bulldozer blades surging forward on the brain and my god it looks f__king kewl from where I'm sitting!  :lol:

#58 KazumaSaru

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Posted November 15 2012 - 12:08 PM

ok, i read about almost every post and here are my thoughts on this.

Hi, I'm a Brawler.

In CBE1 i was so excited about Hawken and Brawlers that i got from lvl 1 to 15 in one night or about 10 hours of straight game play. I would always either come in 1st or 2nd in every map, and my favorite part of my brawler was "Turret Mode".
I would lay down my turret, drop a shield barrier, and go into "Turret Mode". I could get about 4 to 5 kills before i was shut down.

Now in CBE2, Which i was having withdraws about btw. Disappointed me so much, that i literally did not play the last 3 days of the beta.
My Brawler would get shut down so fast. i would die in about 3 shots, Event in "Turret Mode".
I thought i was crazy at first and did not believe it as i would, like i mentioned, used to fuzzy bunny Da Face.
I really hope something get's done to help out Brawlers & Rocketeers, because i do not plan on playing any other class.
(I strongly believe that these classes got secretly nerfed) <---- have no idea why, but that's what i believe.

After reading everyone's thoughts on the situation, the only solution that came to mind is the only weapon that helped me kick so much ass during CBE1.

My Item: THE TURRET!!

So, the option that comes to my mind would be to have a constant turret on top of my head when i go into "Turret Mode" (see what i did there_)

That way it can be combined with your Turret item, and it can be a constant output of damage, SINCE there is a constant INPUT of damage from the other mech's.

then it would really come down to that 35% of damage mitigation to help you survive the battle.
it would also help with the fact that you loose almost your entire mobility and it's very hard to detect where the enemy is located.
It can also help you figure out the location of the Mech with a some sort of yellow arrow in your HUD pointing at the enemy.
That way you can "try" to turn around and shot them, but even if you don't!! your turret will lay down some damage, hopefully about 50% of their health. while you have about 25% health left_ Then all you have to do is aim :)!

I really hope something get's done either way, but this was the only thing that made sense to me.
Even thought i do kind of the like the whole battle charge idea.

Thank you for you time! :)

sorry about the grammar and punctuation, i'm at work and everybody keeps walking to my desk LOL

#59 KazumaSaru

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Posted November 15 2012 - 12:11 PM

View PostGunsnButter, on November 15 2012 - 11:42 AM, said:

Might have been mentioned already, but a free MG / Rocket turret mounted on top that deploys in turret mode would be neat.

Dang you Guns!! you posted my idea while i was writing it :(!
either way i agree, if you don't want to read my long ass stupid post here you go ^^^^^ :wub:

#60 3Jane

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Posted November 15 2012 - 12:24 PM

I just don't see turret mode as fun... I get the idea, it could even be fun if you changed it enough. Most of the time it isn't though, even in a team mode, even in siege or sitting on a point.
  Standing still and getting shot at/shooting things just feels like a point and click flash game, not cool, not engaging or difficult, no thrill to it.

No excitement of being invisible, can they see me_ Will I escape/evade them_

No thrill of the hunt using weapons coolant to clinch that kill.

No joy as my damage soars with sharpshooter.

Personally when I've played B or C class for a few games and jump in to A class again.. that speed, the maneuverability. THAT is pure fun.
Give me 5 seconds of that on a C mech as an ability any day, hell even 3 seconds.

Sorry I keep repeating the same stuff in a couple threads guys but it feels like so many suggestions are just people trying to polish the fuzzy bunny that is turret mode.




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