87 replies to this topic

[OverWolf]

Saunders, while I'd rather withhold my opinions on said changes until they are actually utilized in the game and I can experience them firsthand, I want to continue to spoil you rotten by saying you're a freakin' awesome developer that is a breath of fresh air from games where the devs either outright ignore the community or abandon them midway through the game's progression.  If you guys continue this kind of interaction with our beautifully picky selves then this game is going to have a bright future.  I've rarely felt joy over reading the "Long" version over the "TLDR" one, lol.

Edited by OverWolf, November 16 2012 - 09:57 AM.

[Hipnox]

TemperWolf, on November 16 2012 - 09:18 AM, said:

I made a post just like this weeks ago and didn't get nearly enough positive feedback as this guy! Instead I just got flamed!_ What's wrong yo_

That's because i'm a LVL 20 Ranter with +110 persuasion.

No seriously. Are you talking about your 'Thanks, but no thanks' thread_ (http://community.pla...nks/#entry79910)

Most of your complaints there are practically identical to stuff being discussed in this thread and i agree with you on most points, but i feel your "i'm not feeling this game k bye" tone, both in title and content, might have put people off.

I tried to keep mine as objective as possible (aside from the "atrocious" in the title )

Besides, you got a Meteor Entertainment staff member thanking you for your feedback.

[KejiGoto]

Hipnox, on November 16 2012 - 10:21 AM, said:

TemperWolf, on November 16 2012 - 09:18 AM, said:

I made a post just like this weeks ago and didn't get nearly enough positive feedback as this guy! Instead I just got flamed!_ What's wrong yo_

That's because i'm a LVL 20 Ranter with +110 persuasion.

No seriously. Are you talking about your 'Thanks, but no thanks' thread_ (http://community.pla...nks/#entry79910)

Most of your complaints there are practically identical to stuff being discussed in this thread and i agree with you on most points, but i feel your "i'm not feeling this game k bye" tone, both in title and content, might have put people off.

I tried to keep mine as objective as possible (aside from the "atrocious" in the title )

Besides, you got a Meteor Entertainment staff member thanking you for your feedback.

Not only that but from the sounds of the thread he wants to Mech Warrior and Hawken was never trying to be Mech Warrior. Even the early interviews they talk about how this is going to be a faster paced game that gets away from the simulation gameplay of Mech Warrior. There isn't really much that can be done about that beyond saying "Well then go play Mech Warrior."

Also likening Hawken to the standard FPS affair I think could have turned people off as well. I for one don't think Hawken even remotely compares to the likes of Battlefield, Call of Duty, and all the others that are crowding the market right now. I'm not getting killed in one hit, my health doesn't automatically regenerate (worst gameplay mechanic ever), melee is completely out, and all kinds of other things like boosting, abilities, and more. Hawken is anything but your standard run of the mill FPS.

[LordofNosgoth]

Saunders, on November 14 2012 - 03:26 AM, said:

Hey there Hipnox (and all):

First off, this is awesome.  It's posts like this that only serve to tell us that what we feel in our gut is right.


TLDR Version:
We completely agree.  Shortly after open beta you'll see a huge shift toward higher level mechs having more options instead of getting stronger.  Our goal is to reach TF2 or CoD-level of choice, where everything you do has a benefit and a drawback, and players who are higher level have more options, not more raw strength.  During our next closed beta and during open beta you'll see a LOT of these issues addressed, but we won't be where we want to be until shortly after open beta (which is partly why it's called a beta).  Luckily, if you really hate it in the meantime, Hawken is free and you can ALWAYS come back at zero risk to you  


Long Version:
Player progression is an extremely important topic for us and a huge focus of ours on the game design side over the last few months.  We agree with you 100% and are actively working around the clock to try and get you guys something 1000x more awesome as soon as possible.  For reference, as I begin to write this post it's 2AM, and I usually arrive at work at 8AM - if that gives you any indication of how important I think this is; this is literally something I think about almost 24/7.  The core of what makes Hawken awesome is there - the game is fun!  But it's the meta systems and the general new user experience which is severely lacking.  And that's unacceptable.

The short answer is we have a plan that we are rolling out step by step that I think you'll be happy with.  You'll see a WHOLE BUNCH of changes for our next closed beta.  A lot of the new features you'll see have been completed for a while now, and a lot of them are very new (as in, will be implemented sometime this week - super duper late to add things to a build, but that's how important we feel it is), and there are even more that you won't see until open beta or shortly after.

There are a lot of legacy reasons why the progression system feels so disjointed (many of the systems were implemented prior to the game having a leveling system at all).  It wasn't designed to feel broken, believe me.  But we DO have a design to fix it  


I'll give more details in a bit, but I'm going to respond to each of your comments individually.
1.    Attributes & Internal Upgrades are Too Small
2.    Weapon Levels Are Redundant
3.    High Level Mechs are Too Strong
The above comments can be answered together to some degree.  The difficulty is #1 is in direct conflict with #3 - under the current system if we reduce the strengths of the high level mechs, then #1 is a problem (upgrades are too small).  If we make #1 big, then #3 is a problem.

And #2 (weapon levels being redundant with optimizations & internals) is right on the mark.

Internals make you stronger.  Optimizations make you stronger.  Weapon levels make you stronger.  In all the same ways.

SOLUTION (shortly after open beta):

Expect to see a complete rework of the way these systems work.  Our general goal is:

• Internals are for tweaking risk / rewards.  Do you want to do more damage_  Fine, but you'll generate a whole lot more heat.  Do you want more FUEL_  Fine, but you'll have to do so at the cost of armor.  We don't want these to be crazy good, or else new players will just get decimated (you probably won't see +60% damage but -80% armor, for example, although that'd be fun to try.  Glass Chassis.).  TF2-style balance is our goal for these, and we have some great solutions and interesting tradeoffs.
  
• Optimizations are for offering more OPTIONS instead of pure stat increases (tho there may be a few things, such as increased EU capacity).  Would you like the ability to about-face in the air_  How about decrease the cooldown of your abilities_  Neither of those actively make you stronger unless you use them in the right situations.  Specifically, in a 1 on 1 fight there's no clear winner between someone who has those abilities and doesn't.  That's our goal for optimizations.
  
• Weapon Levels are for Weapon Sidegrades.  This is where weapon specialization and interesting choice really comes into play.  Say you get to level 2 with your hellfire - now you unlock the ability to keep the hellfire the way it is, or to increase the speed of the missiles at the cost of the ability for them to seek.  Another example is something simple like increasing the zoom on the Sabot, which is a pretty clear tradeoff between mid and long-range support.

You won’t see all of the above for the next closed beta but you’ll see some of it.  In the short-term we’ll be keeping the Internals numbers pretty small so we can keep testing it, but expect these to gradually get stronger as we roll out the changes to the optimizations and weapons systems.

4) It’s Impossible to tell a Player’s Level
Answer: You’ll see this fixed in the next closed beta and HUGELY better version of it in the open beta.  Every time you get killed you’ll know what level they are and what mech they are, as well as when you look at the scoreboard.  We also have a system for identifying the “arsenal” of other players, but we’ll detail that more closer to open beta.

5) You can’t buy weapons
Answer: Yes, and I don’t think you should be able to buy weapons.  Some mechs just shouldn’t have some weapons if we want the game to feel balanced (imagine if you could have the Infiltrator with the flak cannon and the grenade launcher - instadeath).  An easier solution would be to make it much easier to get net mechs, so you can pick from a wide variety of different feeling mechs at any time, wouldn’t you say_

Also, our goal is to make each mech feel unique.  That’s for another post, but expect to see more strongly defined roles for new mechs that we release in the future, as well as updates to existing ones.

6) HP rewarded for playing, not for performance
Answer:  You’ll see some systems in open beta (such as daily achievements) that will help you gain HP for epic skillz.  Ultimately, I think it’s more important for everyone to be able to get every mech if they really want to, even if they suck.  Sure, they’ll have to work harder at it, but if someone wants to make Hawken a daily part of their lives, then I will PERSONALLY give them mechs.  We have some good solutions for this which we’ll roll out in the future that I think will make everyone happy (i.e. rewards for support roles, etc).

7) No renting system
Answer:  This was actually an oversight during the last closed beta and totally our bad.  We already have this system in place, and you’ll be able to try it out during the next closed beta.  In the future we’ll offer additional options for renting & trying out new stuff as well.

8) Progression discourages playing without boosters
Answer:  I personally find boosters a huge problem for balance.  Either you balance your progression for the boosed player and everyone else goes slow, or you make everyone go fast and the boosted player megafast.  We’ll have some systems during open beta which should help ease the difference between boosted and non-boosted accounts.

Also, as I mentioned before, I’d like players to be able to get all the mechs quicker than they do, and there are a number of ways we can solve this.  Expect to see changes on the above for open beta.

9)  It’s too late to see major changes
Answer:  Actually no, luckily it’s not!  We’re a small, independent developer, and although that means it’s a lot harder work for us, it also means that we can do what we want when we want without having to ask anybody.  It’s awesome!

Well, we do ask people, and that’s you, our fans.  Without you guys we wouldn’t be here, so thank you so much for posts like this.  You write this stuff because you care, and we care too!  We want to make the best mech game ever conceived by the big brains of man, and you’re actively helping us.  So yes, KEEP RANTING PLEASE and expect us to RANT BACK.  

<3 Saunders


p.s. Do you think the above is a good shift for player progression_

Saunders, thank you for the awesome post.

It's actually good to hear from a game developer that cares what the players think. It's also - honestly - good to hear from a dev who's not "consolizing" their game and getting lazy in the development and implementation. I've seen far too many games with potential for being excellent washed down the toilet because the developer would rather make a large paycheck and damn the consequences as opposed to be known for having a quality game and being a quality developer.

It's also good to know our rants are being heard and considered. I admit to ranting a few times myself. At the moment, given your huge post regarding changes, I'd like for some advice; from you or the community, whichever will work out best (and actually be viable in Hawken) would be great:

In other games, I'm a successful and ruthless sniper for one reason: I "quickscope". A lot. And I've gotten pretty good at it. But in Hawken, it's just not at all possible due to the weapons' set up. I'd like <- (huge emphasis on the word "like") to be able to have QS'ing in some form on this game.

I'd also like to note that - while I might be average, above average, epic, whatever - as a player (I'll let others be the judge of that), I've made it a point over the last 2 CBE's to make Hawken a part of my daily life. Often this has meant many, many late nights after work and scooting out of bed in just enough time to get there in the afternoon. And, of course, talking to the dozens of nerdy gamers I work with and bragging about Hawken. Seriously. You know what I tell them Hawken is_ "Imagine Mech Warrior... if it was good." Or "Imagine if Mech Warrior didn't move like molasses in January" and, my personal favorite: "Imagine playing a game that feels like the developers actually tried for once; instead of dumbing everything down to sell more copies on consoles".

Now, everyone wants a key. So you understand: I work Tech Support for Samsung Laptops, Galaxy Tablets, Galaxy Players and Samsung Printers for the entire US. So when I say my co-workers are all a bunch of nerdy, tech happy gamer geeks, I'm really not joking.

And I'm rooting for you.

And I will keep ranting (unless some of the gents here beat me to it, which it seems several have).

[Ace4225]

Subdivision, on November 16 2012 - 09:09 AM, said:

Ace4225, on November 14 2012 - 08:36 PM, said:

Hipnox, on November 13 2012 - 02:25 PM, said:

• You can't buy weapons, you have to buy an entire mech

As if i even have to tell you why this feels so wrong.

Umm... yes you can buy weapons. It's called reach lvl 20.

and as for your "opinion" that low-level mechs are outclassed by higher-level ones, this is not true.

I know guys that beat everyone with a lvl 2 mech. I've BEEN the lvl 2 mech that beat lvl 15 mechs. Please explain how your opinion is still valid.

What we are talking about in this thread is the issue when balanced players, ie players of the same skill level play off. If one has a higher level mech that is fully kitted out and the other is a blank zero, the upgraded one will always win. This is a hypothetical situation where essentially someone would be playing themselves to make it so each  mech was pilotted by an identically skilled pilot but you get the idea. The suggested changes to be implemented will balance this out by making trade-off's for benefits gained, meaning new players jumping into the game aren't going to be purely out classed by a high tech mech.
Also, don't call people out like that, its rude. If someone wishes to express their opinion you can't say its wrong by stating your opinion as fact (and just so you know, your opinion isn't fact). This is an open forum and a place where we can all express our opinions and discuss what is best for the game going forward.

RedVan, on November 15 2012 - 01:58 PM, said:

Hipnox, on November 13 2012 - 02:25 PM, said:

• High level mechs have too many advantages over low level ones:

I was playing as a level 15 assault the other day in a DM, some dude was bitching because he thought it unfair that I was "so high a level".  So I logged on to my other account and played as a level 0 assault.  I still won.

I have a level 20 SS that I'll generally wind up ending a match with an astronomical KD ratio (no, I don't sit behind everyone stealing kills, I'm a front line fighter with the SS).  So I decided to test the level difference between a level 20 and 0 SS.  I logged on to my other account, level 0 SS, same KD at the end.

While there is a difference between levels, it's far from being game breaking.

Again, that's a player skill gap that will occur less frequently with more people playing. Even if the level gap doesn't break the game, it can ruin it for poorer players and especially brand new ones. The game has to welcome new players in order for it to grow and flourish. I'd hate to be in a game that discourages new players and gives them a cliff face to climb as soon as they do if they wish to process and better themselves.

Sorry if I came off as rude... [I did sound that way a little] and I know I'll LOVE the changes Saunders mentioned...

but when I read the OP the whole thing just reminded me of a lot of experiences I had like RedVan, where noobs thought that because my mech was higher-level, that was the reason I was winning, and spent the majority of a match complaining until they ragequit. On average, I won 6/10 matches I played, and in virtually all the rest placed in the top 3-5. I did this as a lvl 2 berserker, a lvl 5 assault, and a lvl 15 brawler. I didn't do significantly better with one mech or another, regardless of lvl.

I like where the devs are taking this, but I also didn't see the current system as being too much of a problem. Like I said, my success wasn't a fluke "skill gap" that would disappear with more players; I guess I'm just good at this game [which came as a surprise to me considering I haven't played anything online in a long time] can't say I'm amazing, but.. I'm not the only one, either.

I've been in matches where skilled players dominated with brand-new lvl 2 mechs consistently for match after match.

My only complaint about the optimization system would be that there isn't ENOUGH of an effect on stats to make a difference. But, seeing how things are going to become "side-grades" rather than upgrades, I can't wait to see how that turns out.

Edited by Ace4225, November 18 2012 - 05:20 PM.

[D20Face]

I really don't see how anybody would be unable to feel the performance boost from a high level mech.

It took me from a ratio of around 1.5(and always winning) to 5+(and always winning).

My only explanation for anybody not feeling things would be taking points in the offensive skill tree, which is just silly. Or taking some internals other than repair drone which is also silly.

It's not like I was ever losing, but I sure as hell wasn't winning as hard.

LordofNosgoth, on November 17 2012 - 10:02 PM, said:

You know what I tell them Hawken is_ "Imagine Mech Warrior... if it was good." Or "Imagine if Mech Warrior didn't move like molasses in January"

If you're only talking about MWO I'll let those comments slide.

If you mean 1-4 I WILL get out my shooty stick. That's right, caps, bolded, italic, and underlined. All of them.

Edited by D20Face, November 18 2012 - 06:06 PM.

[Ace4225]

D20Face, on November 18 2012 - 06:05 PM, said:

LordofNosgoth, on November 17 2012 - 10:02 PM, said:

You know what I tell them Hawken is_ "Imagine Mech Warrior... if it was good." Or "Imagine if Mech Warrior didn't move like molasses in January"

If you're only talking about MWO I'll let those comments slide.

If you mean 1-4 I WILL get out my shooty stick. That's right, caps, bolded, italic, and underlined. All of them.

I second this. MW4 [esp the MekTek free release] was probably the best mech game I've ever played... and while Hawken is faster-paced, it's not finished, and it will never be as complex.

[DM30]

Ace4225, on November 18 2012 - 06:40 PM, said:

D20Face, on November 18 2012 - 06:05 PM, said:

LordofNosgoth, on November 17 2012 - 10:02 PM, said:

You know what I tell them Hawken is_ "Imagine Mech Warrior... if it was good." Or "Imagine if Mech Warrior didn't move like molasses in January"

If you're only talking about MWO I'll let those comments slide.

If you mean 1-4 I WILL get out my shooty stick. That's right, caps, bolded, italic, and underlined. All of them.

I second this. MW4 [esp the MekTek free release] was probably the best mech game I've ever played... and while Hawken is faster-paced, it's not finished, and it will never be as complex.

Thirded. MW 3 and 4 are still ranked among the very top favourite games I've owned, despite how long it's been since they were released.

Haven't had time to try MWO yet, so can't comment on that one.

[Ace4225]

unfortunately, I have tried MWO. It's not worth it imo. Graphics aren't bad, but the physics feel as old as MW2's and the control scheme is really weird: you have to group weapons/cycle weapon groups during a match, you drive the legs with WASD while turning the torso/arms with your mouse. I just found it really annoying compared to the 360 controller setup I recently used with MW4 [MekTek release]

btw, if you haven't played the MekTek free release of MW4 Mercs, it's great. It comes with everything MW4 Mercs came with stock, plus all released expansions and a ton of extra content made by MekTek. runs on almost any computer nowadays too.

Edited by Ace4225, November 18 2012 - 11:03 PM.

[DM30]

Well, that's disappointing to hear. I'll probably give it a try just to see for myself what I think, but from what I'm hearing it doesn't sound promising so far...

And yes, I did play Mektek's Mercs. Those guys did a great job with the free release of it, IMO. Never got online multiplayer to work, but just for the campaigns or LAN it was great.

[LordofNosgoth]

Mech Warrior games always felt too clunky and unresponsive. The customization options were great (generally) but trying to pilot the damned things with a KB/M combo was less fun than "Crysis Driving" which always annoyed me. Mech Warrior also had no focus other than the customization. Hawken keeps the focus on the combat - albeit with mechs - more so than customization. It's faster paced and doesn't require a 4+ month learning curve in order to hit top-tier skill-wise, not saying anything about earning enough to unlock the parts needed in order to reach said Tier.

I like Hawken better... so far. I couldn't get into MW inspite of how much time I put into it. I always regretted that waste of time. But it was a trail-blazer and as such will always have my begrudging respect. Compared to what I consider "good" games_ Nope. It doesn't make the cut; none of the MW's do. But, that's my humble opinion.

NOTE: Go get your shooty stick. Mine's bigger. I promise. And I've had lots of practice using it.

[D20Face]

LordofNosgoth, on November 19 2012 - 06:31 AM, said:

Heresy

Light mechs in Mechwarrior move fast. Not just normal fast, but in many cases faster than you are allowed to turn your torso. Aiming isn't just a matter of moving your mouse, it requires real prediction.

On top of that you've obviously never touched multiplayer, which is almost sad since you're going to be put to death for your remarks. You get everything from the start and you've got craploads of options to even battlefields.

Either in a US East pure DM or a semi-official planned team match against RWM, if I see you you will die.

[The_Silencer]

Tell me if I'm wrong on it but this is how I understand this should work at the end and in general and axiomatic terms...:

1.- Light mechas: Pretty difficult to catch them due to their inherent movement class plus extra "gear". Little armour and little punch.

2.- Medium mechas: Moderately difficult to catch them. Considerable armour and punch.

3.- Heavies: Caught with ease. Very tough and with serious punch.

*4.- Prototype mechas_: No frakking idea.. I'm very very curious on these; I've to admit...

Then you have the whole universe of extra gear, upgrades, abilities, internals, and so forth... but the raw balancing scheme should mutate and subsequently evolve from such class axioms through gameplay.

[KejiGoto]

The_Silencer, on November 19 2012 - 08:24 AM, said:

Tell me if I'm wrong on it but this is how I understand this should work at the end and in general and axiomatic terms...:

1.- Light mechas: Pretty difficult to catch them due to their inherent movement class plus extra "gear". Little armour and little punch.

2.- Medium mechas: Moderately difficult to catch them. Considerable armour and punch.

3.- Heavies: Caught with ease. Very tough and with serious punch.

*4.- Prototype mechas_: No frakking idea.. I'm very very curious on these; I've to admit...

Then you have the whole universe of extra gear, upgrades, abilities, internals, and so forth... but the raw balancing scheme should mutate and subsequently evolve from such class axioms through gameplay.

I think you are fairly spot on besides damage. All mechs have the ability to pack a pretty good punch but what varies is how long they can keep it up. Light mechs aren't hitting as hard as the heavies but they can still do some serious damage however their weapons are either assault rifles, weapons that require a charge to pack a punch, or something that has an extended reload time. I feel like the heavy mechs can keep the damage output going at a far better rate than the light mechs, not only because they can stand there and take it up their weapon design works for that as well. The Rocketeer can keep pounding away with Hellfires while keep the ECP Repeater or Heat Cannon charged to alternate blasts for some great damage stacking.

[Ace4225]

D20Face, on November 18 2012 - 06:05 PM, said:

I really don't see how anybody would be unable to feel the performance boost from a high level mech.

It took me from a ratio of around 1.5(and always winning) to 5+(and always winning).

My only explanation for anybody not feeling things would be taking points in the offensive skill tree, which is just silly. Or taking some internals other than repair drone which is also silly.

I think this is more likely due to getting used to the game over a few days. On my first day, I rarely ever dodged or touched items and did pretty well. Then, by my third day, I was making considerable use of dodging and dropping items whenever appropriate. Then, I was able to control my environment and secure wins more consistently.

I often changed mechs on a match-ly basis because of different opponents' play styles, and all my mechs were diff levels. Sometimes my lvl 15 brawler couldn't do fuzzy bunny to a skilled opponent, but my lvl 4 berserker could.

Also, I took points in offense and did feel minor changes in heat reduction and damage dealt; just not enough to really be game-changing. Not sure what you mean by "repair drone." I thought different repair drones were an aesthetic purchase.

Edited by Ace4225, November 19 2012 - 02:59 PM.

[Ace4225]

LordofNosgoth, on November 19 2012 - 06:31 AM, said:

Heresy

Mechwarrior may have been more sim-like, but NEVER clunky. There's tons of strategy even in single-player [as you really have to keep your lance well-balanced] I dare you to call my game-breaking Thor "clunky" and see what happens.

Hawken is quite fun.. but I can't say it's a better game. The Battletech mechlab system was a genius of balance between heat, firepower, armor, and speed imo... not to mention TONS of weapons to pick from.. yet never one mech variant that could totally outperform other variants.

Edited by Ace4225, November 19 2012 - 03:12 PM.

[TheChaffeemancer]

Ace4225, on November 19 2012 - 03:07 PM, said:

LordofNosgoth, on November 19 2012 - 06:31 AM, said:

Heresy

Mechwarrior may have been more sim-like, but NEVER clunky. There's tons of strategy even in single-player [as you really have to keep your lance well-balanced] I dare you to call my game-breaking Thor "clunky" and see what happens.

Hawken is quite fun.. but I can't say it's a better game. The Battletech mechlab system was a genius of balance between heat, firepower, armor, and speed imo... not to mention TONS of weapons to pick from.. yet never one mech variant that could totally outperform other variants.

Jump and shoot gauss mechs are a myth perpetuated by butt-hurt Inner Sphere surats.

[3Jane]

Ace4225, on November 19 2012 - 02:57 PM, said:

D20Face, on November 18 2012 - 06:05 PM, said:

I really don't see how anybody would be unable to feel the performance boost from a high level mech.

It took me from a ratio of around 1.5(and always winning) to 5+(and always winning).

My only explanation for anybody not feeling things would be taking points in the offensive skill tree, which is just silly. Or taking some internals other than repair drone which is also silly.

Also, I took points in offense and did feel minor changes in heat reduction and damage dealt; just not enough to really be game-changing. Not sure what you mean by "repair drone." I thought different repair drones were an aesthetic purchase.

Repair internal gives you a sick repair rate especially with the base stat and the +5's on top of that. Means you repair a lot faster than some classes can damage depending on their weapon and distance.

[Frenotx]

Repair kit internal. FTFY

But yeah, the repair kit internal + the repair optimizations feel absolutely necessary, to me- especially when driving a c-class,

[Ace4225]

ah. didn't know that.