151 replies to this topic

[DarkPulse]

AsianJoyKiller, on November 17 2012 - 12:26 PM, said:

I'm all for making every weapon show up on radar.
Showing up on radar_ That should just be a disadvantage to using a turret. They're not there to maintain stealth.
And it's only a "Kill me" sign if you leave your turret undefended. And if you do, then you have no one to blame but yourself.

I'd be a lot more fine with turrets showing up on radar if there was a way to repair them (like, y'know, with a Repair Torch...) but as-is, they're dead if someone pinpoints one, and I feel the sound and placements make that obvious enough without the radar having to point it out too.

On the other hand, if it can be repaired, then yes, showing up on the radar is fine since if I kill the guy who tries to take it out, I can then heal it, whereas right now, it will take at most two tries for a reasonably skilled player to take out any single turret once they know where it is.

Beemann, on November 17 2012 - 01:18 PM, said:

Oh dear
Not only did you fail to come up with any comp videos that show exclusively rocket and rail, but you've also shown your true colours
UT  has an inferior jerky movement system, and a comp scene that honestly does revolve around 2 guns (shock rifle and sniper rifle)
And I can post videos of that being the case

Only in UT2003/UT2004. UT99 is a lot more varied, as is UT3.

Then again, UT2003/UT2004 is a lot more like Quake... which should say something if Shock/Lightning Gun became the weapons everyone used in high level play.

And yes, sorry that we didn't have bunny hopping. It's what made your game more fun for some and less fun for others.

(Critics would argue UT won that battle by a narrow margin, by the way - even if it was technically inferior and less refined, it was more varied, and it's put out three sequels to Quake's two - one of which wasn't exactly played competitively online... not to mention this game is running on UDK and not id Tech 5. )

Sparkard, on November 17 2012 - 05:49 PM, said:

Yeah, you see the guy and his turret, if you'll start running right away, the turret will tear through 100 armor of your armor in 1s, while you're running the enemy will tear another 100 of it, and then you'll just kill him_
You might be good or he might bad but i see no balance in here.

A 200 armor loss is a disadvantage, but not an insurmountable one, considering that I'm basically one secondary weapon hit away from bringing him down to parity... if not lower than mine with some (TOW, GL). That's nothing.

Secondary weapons deal plenty of meaty damage, but they're slow. The primary is what does most of the work, and with good movement you can largely negate it.

And yes, I would consider myself one of the stronger players in the beta. I do play mind games with my enemies, so more often than not, I come out on top, even if I'm at bad disadvantages. And if I lose... hey, it's just a death, but I know he took a good pounding too; someone else will no doubt clean him up.

Sparkard, on November 17 2012 - 05:49 PM, said:

If someone puts a turret out in the open, without any need, and leaves it unattended, then it's like throwing HE at no enemy. If they want to waste it it's their problem. But lets say im boosting to some nice and cosy sniping spot and i get in range of a properly placed turret. Now let's asume the bad scenario -> it takes me 1,5 - 2s to find that little fuzzy bunny (fuzzy bunny intended) (especially if i just went into sniping mode and i have to quickly go out of it, also i haven't tested that out yet but it seemed to me that there was something wrong with firing direction indicators in that mode but nvm ) so -200armor -> now i miss with my sabot riffle, not because i'm a s**t at aiming but because you can sometimes miss a C-class with it if it's too close to you and you're zoomed out, ->5s cd = -500armor for me_ yeah...

With all due respect, if you find the thing when zoomed in, you should be shooting Sabot and Slug (please tell me you're not using the SA Hawkins) as one of each will take the turret out or bring it nearly to its knees, and if that's the case, a second Slug will take it out. Then you hide a titch away and heal.

Running away without shooting it just leaves it there to do more damage and gives the owner of the turret psychological advantage; worse, it points you out if you peep back into its LOS. Blowing it up is worth eating a few extra bullets because it's better long-term.

Sparkard, on November 17 2012 - 05:49 PM, said:

Whoah, you're soo underestimating MG and shotgun, especially the MG with it's awesome precision and pushing power.
(And even plasma can be used on q3dm17  for quad to rail rocket SWOB or simply ground boosting but that's another story... and a little bit of an over-kill).

I don't play Q3. I find it boring as hell to be honest. It would've been a lot more interesting to me without bunny hopping, but what made the game awesome for others effectively ruined it for me, because it made it almost too easy to control things and run loops, plus it forces everyone who wants to do good to use it or lose - two players of equal skill, but one who can bunny hop for speed versus one who cannot, the hopper will win because he'll get to the weapons/items quicker.

But I digress. This isn't supposed to be an argument about Q3. You have your likes and I have mine.

[Sparkard]

DarkPulse, on November 18 2012 - 01:54 AM, said:

A 200 armor loss is a disadvantage, but not an insurmountable one, considering that I'm basically one secondary weapon hit away from bringing him down to parity... if not lower than mine with some (TOW, GL). That's nothing.

Secondary weapons deal plenty of meaty damage, but they're slow. The primary is what does most of the work, and with good movement you can largely negate it.

And yes, I would consider myself one of the stronger players in the beta. I do play mind games with my enemies, so more often than not, I come out on top, even if I'm at bad disadvantages. And if I lose... hey, it's just a death, but I know he took a good pounding too; someone else will no doubt clean him up.

"a disadvantage" - yes, "That's nothing." - certainly not. You're kinda skipping over the fact that we're just taking 1s into consideration here. A disadvantage is all that offensive item should be for your enemy through the cours of battle, not an insumountable obstacle that is another player with aimbot vulcan that you can deploy whenever you want.

DarkPulse, on November 18 2012 - 01:54 AM, said:

With all due respect, if you find the thing when zoomed in, you should be shooting Sabot and Slug (please tell me you're not using the SA Hawkins) as one of each will take the turret out or bring it nearly to its knees, and if that's the case, a second Slug will take it out. Then you hide a titch away and heal.

Running away without shooting it just leaves it there to do more damage and gives the owner of the turret psychological advantage; worse, it points you out if you peep back into its LOS. Blowing it up is worth eating a few extra bullets because it's better long-term.

If i find the thing when zoomed in and far away from then the turret was wrongly placed or just the owner had no luck, but that's not the situation we're talking about here.
And yes i'm using Hawkins... whenever i forget to change it to Slug riffle :/ . But tbh it can be used effectively in some situations :S .

OFFTOP://

DarkPulse, on November 18 2012 - 01:54 AM, said:

I don't play Q3. I find it boring as hell to be honest. It would've been a lot more interesting to me without bunny hopping, but what made the game awesome for others effectively ruined it for me, because it made it almost too easy to control things and run loops, plus it forces everyone who wants to do good to use it or lose - two players of equal skill, but one who can bunny hop for speed versus one who cannot, the hopper will win because he'll get to the weapons/items quicker.

But I digress. This isn't supposed to be an argument about Q3. You have your likes and I have mine.

Although i'm now about 2(-3) years into defrag (if you know what i mean) i still think that's not very biased to say that you saying that strafe jumping is stupid because it gives an advantage to people who can do it is like saying that proper aiming is stupid because it gives an advantage to players that are skilled.

Nonetheless, i perfectly understand why you dislike Q3 and idk why are you so defensive about that, really no one here tries to force you into liking it. For me it just looks like you've been involved into too many "Q3 vs UT" topics in the past .

Beemann, on November 17 2012 - 06:41 PM, said:

@Sparkard
I think you mean LG
MG makes it sound like you're talking about the CG, which actually does have a small CoF
LG is pinpoint-accurate and pushes targets

Puting aside that there's no LG on dm17, it have a crappy range.
The TA CG_ Meh, still not too accurate, and kinda not my thing but that's not the point.
Anyway, don't tell me that no one ever "helped" you to the rail platorm (or bfg on Tourney6) ... and beyond it.
If there was more players knowing what they're doing at dm17, MG would eat you before you'd even get to RL... no to mention the rail.
MG ->really<- have a decent damage AND pushing power. Don't tell me you're one of those guys that keeps spaming rockets when enemy is on a railgun range (and you don't have rail)... :S .

Edited by Sparkard, November 18 2012 - 02:48 AM.

[Beemann]

Sparkard, on November 18 2012 - 01:58 AM, said:

Puting aside that there's no LG on dm17, it have a crappy range.
The TA CG_ Meh, still not too accurate, and kinda not my thing but that's not the point.
Anyway, don't tell me that no one ever "helped" you to the rail platorm (or bfg on Tourney6) ... and beyond it.
If there was more players knowing what they're doing at dm17, MG would eat you before you'd even get to RL... no to mention the rail.
MG ->really<- have a decent damage AND pushing power. Don't tell me you're one of those guys that keeps spaming rockets when enemy is on a railgun range (and you don't have rail)... :S .

I play CPM/QLive. There IS no MG
I also make a point of not playing DM17 though... that is, when I'm not running around in DeFraG like a kid in a candy shop

@DarkPulse
This IS actually relevant to Hawken, but not relevant to this thread itself. I've made a new thread here http://community.pla...for-spectators/

Also, you still have yet to prove that Q3 was all about the rail and rocket launcher

[Sparkard]

Then what IS this Oo http://quake.wikia.c...achine_Gun_(Q3)
EDIT://
And CG ability to push ppl into the void on space maps is just bad, works only at close range, when it's already spinning and you haven't yet ran out of ammo (but by NO means i'm saying that this weap is bad or something)
EDIT2://
Anyway, i don't think that there's much more to say, yet if you'd liek to continue then make a topic on that matter in offtop, before something bad happens

Edited by Sparkard, November 18 2012 - 03:48 AM.

[DarkPulse]

Beemann, on November 18 2012 - 03:37 AM, said:

Also, you still have yet to prove that Q3 was all about the rail and rocket launcher

Put it this way: If UT is all Shock and Sniper/Lightning Gun, Quake is all Railgun and Rocket Launcher.

Maybe not true in a technical sense, but very likely the first weapons you'll think of unless you're a fan of the series. Me, I'd personally think stuff like Translocator, Flak Cannon, GES Biorifle... but yes, the Shock Rifle is there; however, not just as the "Shock Rifle," but as the "ASMD Shock Rifle."

Even funnier if you remember what "GES" and "ASMD" stand for. Quake doesn't have a monopoly on naughty weapon acronyms, after all.

Edited by DarkPulse, November 18 2012 - 05:42 AM.

[Beemann]

DarkPulse, on November 18 2012 - 05:41 AM, said:

Put it this way: If UT is all Shock and Sniper/Lightning Gun, Quake is all Railgun and Rocket Launcher.

Maybe not true in a technical sense, but very likely the first weapons you'll think of unless you're a fan of the series. Me, I'd personally think stuff like Translocator, Flak Cannon, GES Biorifle... but yes, the Shock Rifle is there; however, not just as the "Shock Rifle," but as the "ASMD Shock Rifle."

Even funnier if you remember what "GES" and "ASMD" stand for. Quake doesn't have a monopoly on naughty weapon acronyms, after all.

Except I'm talking about actual competitive play
I managed to find a match where Flak got used, but it was only because everyone kept hopping into CQC
All the heavy lifting was done with the Shock Rifle
You won't see that n Quake. The LG plays too important a role, as does the GL
The remainder of the weapons in UT see less use in the comp games I've watched than the Quake shotgun

Sparkard, on November 18 2012 - 03:41 AM, said:

Then what IS this Oo http://quake.wikia.c...achine_Gun_(Q3)
EDIT://
And CG ability to push ppl into the void on space maps is just bad, works only at close range, when it's already spinning and you haven't yet ran out of ammo (but by NO means i'm saying that this weap is bad or something)
EDIT2://
Anyway, i don't think that there's much more to say, yet if you'd liek to continue then make a topic on that matter in offtop, before something bad happens

And apparently I've gone and got my quake guns mixed up
It's the Chaingun that I don't really see on the QLive and CPM games I play, and the MG that I should have been referring to this whole time
My bad

Serves me right for bailing on sleep

[DarkPulse]

Beemann, on November 18 2012 - 12:41 PM, said:

Except I'm talking about actual competitive play
I managed to find a match where Flak got used, but it was only because everyone kept hopping into CQC
All the heavy lifting was done with the Shock Rifle
You won't see that n Quake. The LG plays too important a role, as does the GL
The remainder of the weapons in UT see less use in the comp games I've watched than the Quake shotgun

And_ That doesn't make it better, merely different. Different sort of game, different sort of weapons needed for good play. UT really has no rapid-fire weapons except for the Minigun. Well, and the Ripper in the original UT, but people cried because people could bank shots off walls and chop your head off with it, so it got tossed.

[Sparkard]

Guys, i've let myself "move" that discussion about UT and q3 to off-topic before it gets too big to handle:
http://community.pla...t-moved-anyway/
I hope i haven't overcome my rights/qualifications, but i think it'd be good if devs read that discussion and what everybody thinks about MG turret, but even if they try to read through all of those walls of text i don't think they'd be happy to manoeuvre through all the q3 and ut discussion and other offtop in order to get get actual content.
At the same time i think that q3 and UT, also when it comes to comparising their balance against hawken balance, is another interesting topic itself, and decided to "move" that discussion to its own dedicated topic.
I hope you don't dislike what i did and if you don't have anything against that, please write about q3 and ut in the given topic, i'd also be happy to join that discussion if any matter that i can reply to and that isn't too much of a rage X vs Y arise.

[AsianJoyKiller]

No worries, it's a good idea.

[Frenotx]

I'd just like to toss out the fact that a fully charged EOC kills turrets in one salve, at literally any range.

[BuDeKai]

Frenotx, on November 19 2012 - 09:52 AM, said:

I'd just like to toss out the fact that a fully charged EOC kills turrets in one salve, at literally any range.

cool so we will all run eoc repeaters. sounds amazing...

[Vertigo]

I think a slight nerf on the damage side of thing might be warranted, along its visibility on radar, but otherwise I think the turret is fine.

It has a few hard counters like the hologram and shield.