151 replies to this topic

[D20Face]

TheChaffeemancer, on November 16 2012 - 10:07 AM, said:

Early warning, Distraction, and aimbotting mech. The two you picked out were the two it could not do indefinitely.

Sorry, misread it there.

Though I still doubt it'll do those indefinitely seeing as how it can't take hits.

[AsianJoyKiller]

Should it be acceptable to have a item that does as much damage as a primary weapon, and has more utility than any other offensive item when it requires no more skill to use beyond basic positioning knowledge and pressing a key_ I don't believe so. The MG Turret is a highly versatile device with amazing potential and very few drawbacks. I intend to cover why the MGT is superior to the HE Charge, Rocket Turret and Detonator, how you can easily minimize it's drawbacks, and why it should not do as much damage as a primary weapon.

So why is the MGT better than the other offensive devices_ Well, simply put, it is a very versatile device. Both the Detonator and HE Charge are used for unleashing large amounts of burst damage, but beyond the ability to hit targets around cover, usually only with splash damage which is a waste of the item, they don't have very much utility. Then there's the Rocket Turret, which we all know is next to useless.

On the other hand, the MGT has many uses, some simple, some advanced and some that are part of emergent gameplay, never intended in the first place. The most obvious uses are related to using the MGT for pure damage. These sort of uses include putting it on the frontlines for supplemental DPS, placing it defensively for area denial and placing it off the beaten path to bait enemies into a trap. More advanced tactics use it as a way of spotting enemies, and physically blockading paths. Unintended mechanics are things like using the turrets for better mobility.

Then there's the fact that you use turrets as a force multiplier. More turrets deployed at the same time is always better than less. The same can not be said about other items. More than 2 or 3 HE Charges is wasteful, no one is going to be fooled by multiple holograms and one EMP is as good as three. However, multiple turrets means more DPS, more area denial and more time wasted by the enemy team as they have to take them out.

Now some people are arguing that the low health and static nature of turrets are balancing factors. The problem is, is that those factors can be mostly and fairly easily mitigated by proper placement of a turret, and in some cases can turn it's weaknesses into an advantage. A properly placed turret will not be visible from long ranges which make them easy to take out, and will require the target to expose themselves to the MGT's line of sight in order to spot it.

There is the argument of "use cover and take it out with a burst", but that is a flawed argument. It assumes that the turrets owner will not push as soon as they know a target is in the area and that the mech has adequate weapons to take it out in one burst. Mechs with out two burst weapons must expose themselves to sustained fire from a MGT. Even in that brief exposure, an A-mech can lose a large chunk of it's health, and losing 100-200 health is nothing to sniff at on other classes. And it's not a guarantee that the owner will give you time to take it out. A good player will push and take advantage of your split attention. If they start to lose the fight, they can retreat to the area covered by their turret. The enemy must take the time to deal with turret, which can give the defending mech much needed breathing space and a chance to do some critical repairs, enough to help regain an edge. A good turret user doesn't just allow people to take out their turrets, they protect them in order to maximize their potential.

There's been the argument that you can predict areas where turrets may be and use splash weapons to do exploratory pokes for them. A well placed turret isn't going to be easy to hit with splash, in fact, with clever placement, it won't be hit at all. And besides that, these sort of "pokes" give away your position and once again allow the owner to push before the enemy can take out their turret.

And this brings me to the skill portion of the MGT. The skill requirement is very minimal.

The greatest portion comes with map knowledge. After a few hours of play on each map, placing a smart turret isn't hard. Even if you suck at figuring out where to put them, it is easy to look up a guide on where to place turrets effectively. You can memorize exact locations where it's good to put a turret. With other offensive items, you can learn general circumstances where it can be effective to use them, but you can't memorize the exact moment or location to do so, because they are dynamic.

After it’s placed, the MGT takes no skill to use. The turret is an aimbot and triggerbot wrapped in one nice little package. It doesn't require you to have good aim to make sure it will hit, or good timing to know when to fire it. It does all of this for you, without any user input beyond deploying it. As far as making a turret do what it does effectively, there is literally no difference between a pro who uses it, or a casual player because it requires no input.

That is why the damage can do is unbalanced. It does at least as much damage as a SMC, roughly 80 damage per second, but unlike a human player, it does not miss and it will not overheat. If you are in the turret's line of sight, you are guaranteed to take damage that is equivalent to someone with an aimbot. This is why it's not a problem that the HE charge and detonator do so much damage. They can miss. They require human input and all that entails. The MGT however doesn't have these sorts of problems, and will do the same damage as a primary weapon without the balancing factor of human error.

This is why the MGT is overpowered, not greatly, but still somewhat overpowered. Its incredible utility when used properly in combination with it’s ability to match the DPS of an aimbotter is overwhelming, especially since it requires very little skill to use effectively. Using a MGT properly guarantees a win when it should only give an edge. Since it works like an aimbot, it can effectively increase the damage you do by 50%, since it does primary weapon DPS.

Edited by AsianJoyKiller, November 16 2012 - 02:28 PM.

[Beemann]

Asian addressed a good chunk of my MG concerns specifically (and reworded a lot of the points we've both been making in essay form)
However this bit kinda bugged me

DarkPulse, on November 16 2012 - 06:44 AM, said:

• Q3: Railgun and Rocket Launcher. And lots of timing the Megahealth and Red Armor.

The FPS with the best weapon balance to date was actually probably Doom, where even the Pistol would work in a pinch. I can't say that about any Quake game.

I'm sorry, what_
Show me a Quake 3 comp match where only the RL and Rail are used, or even where they're the only weapons that truly matter
Plasma and GL get used for harassment and area denial, LG gets used EXCESSIVELY in straight fights and quite a few fights have come down to a good short-range burst from the Shotgun
And even then, you're dealing with a game in which both teams have access to the SAME weapons. To compare it, just for a moment, to SC, you don't have a game that's imbalanced just because someone queues up more of one unit than another. It's all about proper utilization of the resources you have

Mega and RA are both centralizing factors to an otherwise chaotic deathmatch mode. 1v1s in Quake need to be grounded. If you watch the attempts at Rocket Arena comp you'll know that it took ages to get anything done, because everyone just camped out after a certain point and waited for the enemy to come to them. Outside of that you could play an eternal game of cat and mouse and nobody would ever get anything done
RA and Mega force conflicts, and give an advantage to the victor. They aren't even a deciding factor at THAT point
There are MANY matches that you can look up yourself on youtube in which players like Rapha make up for a lost RA by cycling Yellows, and slowly build a big enough stack to match their opponents
And again, they're equally available to everyone

Quake 3 is built for high-end play, particularly when you factor in CPM
Strafe jumping is a little tricky for some folks to learn initially, but it's fairly simple to do it on a basic level once you know what the proper mouse and keyboard movements are, and it's part of a movement system with nigh-infinite potential
The guns all work well for their given niche, and with the exception of the CG they're all completely reliable. The LG, Shotgun, Railgun, Plasma, Rocket Launcher and Grenade Launcher will always fire in the same manner. It's entirely up to the player to get them to hit the target, and to fire them at their optimal range/in the right setting

[AsianJoyKiller]

I should also mention that the matter of turrets showing up on radar is one of consistency.
What other gun in the game (and the turret is a gun, even if it's in item form), doesn't show up on radar when you shoot_
Why would turrets magically be immune_ They aren't silenced.

[D20Face]

AsianJoyKiller, on November 16 2012 - 02:18 PM, said:

There is the argument of "use cover and take it out with a burst", but that is a flawed argument. It assumes that the turrets owner will not push as soon as they know a target is in the area and that the mech has adequate weapons to take it out in one burst. Mechs with out two burst weapons must expose themselves to sustained fire from a MGT. Even in that brief exposure, an A-mech can lose a large chunk of it's health, and losing 100-200 health is nothing to sniff at on other classes. And it's not a guarantee that the owner will give you time to take it out. A good player will push and take advantage of your split attention. If they start to lose the fight, they can retreat to the area covered by their turret. The enemy must take the time to deal with turret, which can give the defending mech much needed breathing space and a chance to do some critical repairs, enough to help regain an edge. A good turret user doesn't just allow people to take out their turrets, they protect them in order to maximize their potential.

This annoys me.

It doesn't matter what the owner of the turret does, the only ways to stop somebody from shooting at a turret are
A EMP (Using another item)
B Shield (Using another item)
C Standing in front of it, blocking it's line of sight.

The ways to stop a shield from shooting at you
A EMP(using 1 item to stop 1)
B Shield(using 1 item to stop 1)
C Hologram(using 1 item to stop 1)
D HE+Secondary
E Two burst weapons(conditional, but valid)

If somebody uses two consumables in a short timespan you're pretty much boned in almost any scenario.

Anybody can kill it an MG at close range in one burst if they choose the HE charge. HE charge+secondary at close is a guaranteed kill. Since close is the only range the turret is a threat then I don't see the issue. If you chose an MG turret instead of an HE charge(because let's be honest, the other two options suck) then there's no reason for to be whining anyway. Sticking with HE charges gives you two guaranteed turret kills at close range while your opponents only get one turret per life. You're also not going to miss unless you're so bad that you can't even hit a stationary target.

When a person uses a consumable you should expect the other person to need to use a consumable to even the odds. An HE charge will kill it, a hologram will distract it, an EMP is probably a waste, and shields are 100% hitscan immunity which helps on more than just the turret.

Shields take no skill to use either and nobody is whining about them. Way above the MG in terms of relative damage impact and usable scenarios.

It can be killed easily at close with burst, it can be killed easily at long because it can't hurt you at long. I fail to see the possible "good" placements that put it at a range where it'll do damage and not die. In order to hit you it has to be able to be hit.

EDIT:WOOPS, Expected something to get filtered and it didn't. That was almost bad.

Edited by D20Face, November 17 2012 - 06:19 AM.

[DarkPulse]

Conquistador, on November 16 2012 - 07:26 AM, said:

Correct me for being dense, but aren't these two related_ I could interpret your statement several ways. If you mean hitting someone by lobbing a grenade over a vertical wall, they're technically hiding behind cover, which you've already suggested before. And if you mean someone standing on top of a vertical wall that you have no line of sight for, that's exactly as if they were in cover, which is again something you've covered by the first statement.

If you mean hitting a person standing on top of a vertical wall and exposed, last I checked the MG turret has enough gun depression to also fire upwards. Which means it will track enemies standing above it so long as it has line-of-sight.

I'm not really seeing something you haven't mentioned before or something the HE grenade can do the MG turret can't. Cover is a fairly broad blanket term, and vertical cover (high walls) is still cover.

Well, in the first case I was thinking of someone hiding behind a corner (people do this, after all). I can either try to hit them with direct splash, or if I think they hid further, I can bank it off the far wall.

In my second example, I was thinking of a vertical wall that covers the mech's height and not much more (Think of the base walls in Titan). If you know someone's there, you can lob it over the top of the wall and hit them.

AsianJoyKiller, on November 16 2012 - 02:18 PM, said:

Should it be acceptable to have a item that does as much damage as a primary weapon, and has more utility than any other offensive item when it requires no more skill to use beyond basic positioning knowledge and pressing a key_ I don't believe so. The MG Turret is a highly versatile device with amazing potential and very few drawbacks. I intend to cover why the MGT is superior to the HE Charge, Rocket Turret and Detonator, how you can easily minimize it's drawbacks, and why it should not do as much damage as a primary weapon.

People say "It should not do as much damage," but nobody but me has yet come up with numbers of "acceptable damage" and as I proved, if you tweak it too far downwards, it quickly goes from deterrent to annoyance and little else - taking out a major use of the turret. If the devs only wanted us to be able to do things like distant detection, they'd have implemented an item that does that but no damage, so obviously, they want the thing to have some pop.

So again, what would be, in your minds, "fair damage_" Because anything under 60/second or so is not going to be effective as a deterrent at all, which pulls it back closer to fight club levels and as anyone who was in fight club knows, turrets then were basically little more than scrap, art-deco style.

AsianJoyKiller, on November 16 2012 - 02:18 PM, said:

So why is the MGT better than the other offensive devices_ Well, simply put, it is a very versatile device. Both the Detonator and HE Charge are used for unleashing large amounts of burst damage, but beyond the ability to hit targets around cover, usually only with splash damage which is a waste of the item, they don't have very much utility. Then there's the Rocket Turret, which we all know is next to useless.

On the other hand, the MGT has many uses, some simple, some advanced and some that are part of emergent gameplay, never intended in the first place. The most obvious uses are related to using the MGT for pure damage. These sort of uses include putting it on the frontlines for supplemental DPS, placing it defensively for area denial and placing it off the beaten path to bait enemies into a trap. More advanced tactics use it as a way of spotting enemies, and physically blockading paths. Unintended mechanics are things like using the turrets for better mobility.

Then there's the fact that you use turrets as a force multiplier. More turrets deployed at the same time is always better than less. The same can not be said about other items. More than 2 or 3 HE Charges is wasteful, no one is going to be fooled by multiple holograms and one EMP is as good as three. However, multiple turrets means more DPS, more area denial and more time wasted by the enemy team as they have to take them out.

But even an organized team won't take long to take out a turret farm. The example I mentioned above, we had all the turrets down within about ten seconds. We also had to contend with enemies who, obviously, would have preferred they stay up, so by using a combination of long-distance shooting, a couple of feints to get defenders out of position, and one or two beefy C-Classes, we proved that no, you can't just farm up a CP with turrets and smack the win button.

Even if a team lays down such a heavy net, you can still out-think them. It's exactly what we did, it's why we won the AA point and blew their ship up, and it's why we won the match, since we used our turrets a bit more creatively.

AsianJoyKiller, on November 16 2012 - 02:18 PM, said:

Now some people are arguing that the low health and static nature of turrets are balancing factors. The problem is, is that those factors can be mostly and fairly easily mitigated by proper placement of a turret, and in some cases can turn it's weaknesses into an advantage. A properly placed turret will not be visible from long ranges which make them easy to take out, and will require the target to expose themselves to the MGT's line of sight in order to spot it.

...So in other words, it's overpowered due to the fact that we can place turrets to factor in places and directions where we predict enemies will be coming from, while also placing them so that you can't just easily shoot it and make it useless_

AsianJoyKiller, on November 16 2012 - 02:18 PM, said:

There is the argument of "use cover and take it out with a burst", but that is a flawed argument. It assumes that the turrets owner will not push as soon as they know a target is in the area and that the mech has adequate weapons to take it out in one burst. Mechs with out two burst weapons must expose themselves to sustained fire from a MGT. Even in that brief exposure, an A-mech can lose a large chunk of it's health, and losing 100-200 health is nothing to sniff at on other classes. And it's not a guarantee that the owner will give you time to take it out. A good player will push and take advantage of your split attention. If they start to lose the fight, they can retreat to the area covered by their turret. The enemy must take the time to deal with turret, which can give the defending mech much needed breathing space and a chance to do some critical repairs, enough to help regain an edge. A good turret user doesn't just allow people to take out their turrets, they protect them in order to maximize their potential.

There's been the argument that you can predict areas where turrets may be and use splash weapons to do exploratory pokes for them. A well placed turret isn't going to be easy to hit with splash, in fact, with clever placement, it won't be hit at all. And besides that, these sort of "pokes" give away your position and once again allow the owner to push before the enemy can take out their turret.

They do, but once again, the psychological value is that they know their trap isn't going to work. If they come storming out after you, guess what you just negated_

That's right! You just took the turret out of the equation because the guy chased you. Congrats, you negated his advantage!

Really, the whole point of the tactics you use against a turret user should be to either get rid of his turret, or get him to fight you away from his turret. Lots of players are easy to psyche out and with a few mind games, you can easily get them to fight you on better terms to you and worse ones for them without them even realizing it.

AsianJoyKiller, on November 16 2012 - 02:18 PM, said:

And this brings me to the skill portion of the MGT. The skill requirement is very minimal.

The greatest portion comes with map knowledge. After a few hours of play on each map, placing a smart turret isn't hard. Even if you suck at figuring out where to put them, it is easy to look up a guide on where to place turrets effectively. You can memorize exact locations where it's good to put a turret. With other offensive items, you can learn general circumstances where it can be effective to use them, but you can't memorize the exact moment or location to do so, because they are dynamic.

Once again, this is mitigated by enemy experience. Odds are if there's a guide for "best turret placement," then people who are going to counter them are going to know where they are, too. Not exactly the best placements anymore, once everyone knows them...

AsianJoyKiller, on November 16 2012 - 02:18 PM, said:

After it’s placed, the MGT takes no skill to use. The turret is an aimbot and triggerbot wrapped in one nice little package. It doesn't require you to have good aim to make sure it will hit, or good timing to know when to fire it. It does all of this for you, without any user input beyond deploying it. As far as making a turret do what it does effectively, there is literally no difference between a pro who uses it, or a casual player because it requires no input.

Though its accuracy falls off rapidly, it is destroyed on owner death or with a few good smacks, and if you're good at mind games, you can pull defenders off their turrets with relative ease. All of this combines for a weapon that is dangerous only against the unaware and unprepared. Someone who's expecting defenses will rarely be surprised, or seriously harmed, by a turret.

AsianJoyKiller, on November 16 2012 - 02:18 PM, said:

That is why the damage can do is unbalanced. It does at least as much damage as a SMC, roughly 80 damage per second, but unlike a human player, it does not miss and it will not overheat. If you are in the turret's line of sight, you are guaranteed to take damage that is equivalent to someone with an aimbot. This is why it's not a problem that the HE charge and detonator do so much damage. They can miss. They require human input and all that entails. The MGT however doesn't have these sorts of problems, and will do the same damage as a primary weapon without the balancing factor of human error.

Turret misses too after a certain distance. It also can't track multiple targets (will always shoot the closest one, IIRC), and it can still be stopped in several other ways, like EMP, Shields, or just plain overwhelming force.

You're making it seem like a win button. It's simply not. I can't remember the last time I took more than about 125 damage from a turret. (Probably during fight club, when I had no experience.)

AsianJoyKiller, on November 16 2012 - 02:18 PM, said:

This is why the MGT is overpowered, not greatly, but still somewhat overpowered. Its incredible utility when used properly in combination with it’s ability to match the DPS of an aimbotter is overwhelming, especially since it requires very little skill to use effectively. Using a MGT properly guarantees a win when it should only give an edge. Since it works like an aimbot, it can effectively increase the damage you do by 50%, since it does primary weapon DPS.

No, it does not give an automatic win. The only way it would give an automatic win is if somehow most of the people playing this game were mediocre players, who somehow don't understand that they have to kill the turret, or to respect the fact that if you get close to them they will chew you up.

Good players will stomp turrets flat in a heartbeat and the only time they'd ever really have problems is if there's two or more. A decent player might take 100-200 damage from it, but that's not exactly enough to kill him, though it does put him at a disadvantage in a fight - but so does any other damaging weapon or item. Only players who aren't used to the things will take lots of damage or die from the things more often than not.

AsianJoyKiller, on November 17 2012 - 06:07 AM, said:

I should also mention that the matter of turrets showing up on radar is one of consistency.
What other gun in the game (and the turret is a gun, even if it's in item form), doesn't show up on radar when you shoot_
Why would turrets magically be immune_ They aren't silenced.

Well then, let's make Grenades and rocket turrets show up too if you're going to talk of consistency. However, that won't hurt those nearly as much, because once again, the MGT fires constantly, and anyone who sees a non-moving, steadily-lit dot knows it's an MG turret. As I said, it amounts to a big ol' "kill me" sign.

==========

And now to reply to two other points, which I will do in a constrained form since I've hit my quotebox limit.

To Beemann on Quake 3: Pretty much any match on Q3DM17. Or, if you prefer, Q3Tourney6. That said, I'm not going to get into an argument on Quake 3 here. Especially since I was a UT player, which makes you a heretic.

Regarding D20Face's post on how holograms can distract turrets: There was my thing I did not know for the day. That actually makes Holograms kind of useful!

[AsianJoyKiller]

D20Face, on November 17 2012 - 06:16 AM, said:

It doesn't matter what the owner of the turret does, the only ways to stop somebody from shooting at a turret are
A EMP (Using another item)
B Shield (Using another item)
C Standing in front of it, blocking it's line of sight.

Or push the enemy, forcing them to focus on you and avoiding your damage.
This is why my turrets last. The moment they're in range of my turret, I'm on them.
And sometimes they take it out, but most of them time, they're punished for not focusing on me, severely punished.

Quote

The ways to stop a shield turret from shooting at you
A EMP(using 1 item to stop 1)
B Shield(using 1 item to stop 1)
C Hologram(using 1 item to stop 1)
D HE+Secondary
E Two burst weapons(conditional, but valid)

If somebody uses two consumables in a short timespan you're pretty much boned in almost any scenario.

Anybody can kill it an MG at close range in one burst if they choose the HE charge. HE charge+secondary at close is a guaranteed kill. Since close is the only range the turret is a threat then I don't see the issue. If you chose an MG turret instead of an HE charge(because let's be honest, the other two options suck) then there's no reason for to be whining anyway. Sticking with HE charges gives you two guaranteed turret kills at close range while your opponents only get one turret per life. You're also not going to miss unless you're so bad that you can't even hit a stationary target.

When a person uses a consumable you should expect the other person to need to use a consumable to even the odds. An HE charge will kill it, a hologram will distract it, an EMP is probably a waste, and shields are 100% hitscan immunity which helps on more than just the turret.

Tell me, what other item requires the use of another item or a specific weapons loadout to complete mitigate it's advantage_

That's right. None.
All other items' advantages can be mitigated by either out-thinking your opponent or out-maneuvering them. It is binary. You are either in a turrets sights, or your not.
For it to be the only item that requires a rock, paper, scissors sort of balance is bad design.

Quote

Shields take no skill to use either and nobody is whining about them. Way above the MG in terms of relative damage impact and usable scenarios.

Shields don't take "no skill" to use.
You have to consider deploying placement, like you would a turret, but on top of that, you also have to consider timing, at least aiming in a general direction, or aiming carefully if you want to place it on a ally.
Shields can also be mitigated by good movement and playing smart.

Quote

It can be killed easily at close with burst, it can be killed easily at long because it can't hurt you at long.

If you're killing it close range, then your guaranteed to take damage.

Quote

I fail to see the possible "good" placements that put it at a range where it'll do damage and not die. In order to hit you it has to be able to be hit.

Then you do not know how to place turrets.



P.S.
Addressing DarkPulse after I get lunch on the stove.

[DM30]

AsianJoyKiller, on November 17 2012 - 11:17 AM, said:

Shields don't take "no skill" to use.
You have to consider deploying placement, like you would a turret, but on top of that, you also have to consider timing, at least aiming in a general direction, or aiming carefully if you want to place it on a ally.
Shields can also be mitigated by good movement and playing smart.

Not to mention the fact that they can be used against you by your enemy if you let them.

[AsianJoyKiller]

DarkPulse, on November 17 2012 - 06:46 AM, said:

Well, in the first case I was thinking of someone hiding behind a corner (people do this, after all). I can either try to hit them with direct splash, or if I think they hid further, I can bank it off the far wall.

In my second example, I was thinking of a vertical wall that covers the mech's height and not much more (Think of the base walls in Titan). If you know someone's there, you can lob it over the top of the wall and hit them.

The point is, they're not two different things.
They're just different ways of doing the same thing.

Quote

People say "It should not do as much damage," but nobody but me has yet come up with numbers of "acceptable damage" and as I proved, if you tweak it too far downwards, it quickly goes from deterrent to annoyance and little else - taking out a major use of the turret. If the devs only wanted us to be able to do things like distant detection, they'd have implemented an item that does that but no damage, so obviously, they want the thing to have some pop.

So again, what would be, in your minds, "fair damage_" Because anything under 60/second or so is not going to be effective as a deterrent at all, which pulls it back closer to fight club levels and as anyone who was in fight club knows, turrets then were basically little more than scrap, art-deco style.

Just because you aren't able to make club turrets work out effectively, does not mean they aren't effective. Both Beemann and I were able to use them quite well. However, I will agree that club turrets could be a little hard to use for some people.

But that does does not validate pushing an item that is a aimbot with the advantage of permanence to be able to do the same damage as a primary weapons.

And for the record, the only people who think that what we mean by "nerf the turret" is "make it useless for damage" are on the side defending turrets.

Take a step back, and stop thinking in extremes. Nobody, at least no one reasonable, is asking for the MGT to be nerfed into oblivion.
We just don't want it to be doing the same sort of damage as a primary weapon.

Quote

But even an organized team won't take long to take out a turret farm. The example I mentioned above, we had all the turrets down within about ten seconds. We also had to contend with enemies who, obviously, would have preferred they stay up, so by using a combination of long-distance shooting, a couple of feints to get defenders out of position, and one or two beefy C-Classes, we proved that no, you can't just farm up a CP with turrets and smack the win button.

Even if a team lays down such a heavy net, you can still out-think them. It's exactly what we did, it's why we won the AA point and blew their ship up, and it's why we won the match, since we used our turrets a bit more creatively.

Unfortunately, unless I see proof otherwise, I have to doubt that the teams were almost equally balanced.

I won't argue balance and tactics when, from what I can tell, the hypothetical teams in question are of at least moderately different skill levels.

Quote

...So in other words, it's overpowered due to the fact that we can place turrets to factor in places and directions where we predict enemies will be coming from, while also placing them so that you can't just easily shoot it and make it useless_

My argument for why turrets are unbalanced is a whole.
Here, you have ignored the points I've made about autoaim and primary weapon DPS.
You cannot take one part out of context and claim that's why I think it is unbalanced, you must consider everything.

To do otherwise is to debate poorly.

Quote

They do, but once again, the psychological value is that they know their trap isn't going to work. If they come storming out after you, guess what you just negated_

That's right! You just took the turret out of the equation because the guy chased you. Congrats, you negated his advantage!

Really, the whole point of the tactics you use against a turret user should be to either get rid of his turret, or get him to fight you away from his turret. Lots of players are easy to psyche out and with a few mind games, you can easily get them to fight you on better terms to you and worse ones for them without them even realizing it.

This argument started out strong, but failed once I read the third paragraph.
Again, you assume disparate levels of skill and intelligence.



Part. II of my reply below.

[AsianJoyKiller]

Quote

Once again, this is mitigated by enemy experience. Odds are if there's a guide for "best turret placement," then people who are going to counter them are going to know where they are, too. Not exactly the best placements anymore, once everyone knows them...

Once everyone knows them, yes, they make know where a turret may possibly be. But that is no guarantee that they'll know exactly where it will be or even if there will be one at all, so that knowledge will be of limited usefulness.

That knowledge also will not help make a cleverly placed turret any easier to take out.

Quote

Though its accuracy falls off rapidly, it is destroyed on owner death or with a few good smacks, and if you're good at mind games, you can pull defenders off their turrets with relative ease. All of this combines for a weapon that is dangerous only against the unaware and unprepared. Someone who's expecting defenses will rarely be surprised, or seriously harmed, by a turret.

Once again, assuming differing levels of skill and intillegence.

Quote

Turret misses too after a certain distance. It also can't track multiple targets (will always shoot the closest one, IIRC), and it can still be stopped in several other ways, like EMP, Shields, or just plain overwhelming force.

A turret that misses after a certain distance is either poorly placed or shooting an enemy that somehow made it behind allied lines (which in that case, kudos to the clever bugger).

I addressed the problem of using items to counter items in my reply to D20.

Also, overwhelming force should not be needed to counter one item.

Quote

You're making it seem like a win button. It's simply not.

Perhaps that is a bit extreme, but the advantage it gives when used properly is quite major.

Also, you have, without a doubt, implied that we (pro-nerf people) advocate making the turret useless.
I am not the only one here guilty of being extreme in my remarks.

Quote

I can't remember the last time I took more than about 125 damage from a turret. (Probably during fight club, when I had no experience.)

A likely story. And I've never EMP'd myself.

Unless you want to upload and present every match you have played since Alpha to prove you never been shot by a turret 3+ times, I'm going to call BS on this.

Quote

No, it does not give an automatic win. The only way it would give an automatic win is if somehow most of the people playing this game were mediocre players, who somehow don't understand that they have to kill the turret, or to respect the fact that if you get close to them they will chew you up.

Good players will stomp turrets flat in a heartbeat and the only time they'd ever really have problems is if there's two or more. A decent player might take 100-200 damage from it, but that's not exactly enough to kill him, though it does put him at a disadvantage in a fight - but so does any other damaging weapon or item. Only players who aren't used to the things will take lots of damage or die from the things more often than not.

200 damage is a loss of 20% health to a health stacked C-Class. That is nothing to sniff at.
100 damage is a loss of 20% health to a A-class without any health additions. Again, nothing to sniff at.
I don't see how the loss of 20% (or more) of your health is a "minor" disadvantage when you're talking about a fight between equally skilled players.

And consider that the 20% loss of health is on top of anything that the owner/defender of a properly placed turret will be doing to you.

Quote

Well then, let's make Grenades and rocket turrets show up too if you're going to talk of consistency. However, that won't hurt those nearly as much, because once again, the MGT fires constantly, and anyone who sees a non-moving, steadily-lit dot knows it's an MG turret. As I said, it amounts to a big ol' "kill me" sign.

I'm all for making every weapon show up on radar.
Showing up on radar_ That should just be a disadvantage to using a turret. They're not there to maintain stealth.
And it's only a "Kill me" sign if you leave your turret undefended. And if you do, then you have no one to blame but yourself.

[Beemann]

DarkPulse, on November 17 2012 - 06:46 AM, said:

To Beemann on Quake 3: Pretty much any match on Q3DM17. Or, if you prefer, Q3Tourney6. That said, I'm not going to get into an argument on Quake 3 here. Especially since I was a UT player, which makes you a heretic.

Oh dear
Not only did you fail to come up with any comp videos that show exclusively rocket and rail, but you've also shown your true colours
UT  has an inferior jerky movement system, and a comp scene that honestly does revolve around 2 guns (shock rifle and sniper rifle)
And I can post videos of that being the case

Edited by Beemann, November 17 2012 - 01:18 PM.

[BuDeKai]

at least u have to aim the vulcan, this one does that for you. /end thread

[3Jane]

Those q3 maps are just stupid pub maps made for people to basically practice spawn fuzzy bunny and aim with rail though lol

I miss UT. I miss translocating inside someone else body and making the blow up from the inside. CTF <3

[Sparkard]

@DarkPulse:
It's late for me and i've stopped reading at text-walls on page 5 so i haven't read all your arguments but just let me reply to that:

DarkPulse, on November 15 2012 - 03:46 PM, said:

Yes, and then I kill the owner who placed it for his insolence.

Yeah, you see the guy and his turret, if you'll start running right away, the turret will tear through 100 armor of your armor in 1s, while you're running the enemy will tear another 100 of it, and then you'll just kill him_
You might be good or he might bad but i see no balance in here.
--------------------------------------------------

Anyway i think turrets should be nerfed, much. And by this i mean what already have been said - about -20% in damage and radar presence (but only when they're firing).
There's no point in showing them on radar when they're firing because you have to be sleeping not to notice them (or something similiar that someone here said) _
I'm a sharpshooter, i shouldn't have any problems with turrets due to what some of you guys are saying right_ Wrong.
If someone puts a turret out in the open, without any need, and leaves it unattended, then it's like throwing HE at no enemy. If they want to waste it it's their problem. But lets say im boosting to some nice and cosy sniping spot and i get in range of a properly placed turret. Now let's asume the bad scenario -> it takes me 1,5 - 2s to find that little fuzzy bunny (fuzzy bunny intended) (especially if i just went into sniping mode and i have to quickly go out of it, also i haven't tested that out yet but it seemed to me that there was something wrong with firing direction indicators in that mode but nvm ) so -200armor -> now i miss with my sabot riffle, not because i'm a s**t at aiming but because you can sometimes miss a C-class with it if it's too close to you and you're zoomed out, ->5s cd = -500armor for me_ yeah...
Now, it's not that i'll stay there and wait for it to kill me of cours, and if i'm not testing something or trying to learn something but i'm just normaly playing my sharpie at my beloved siege mode my avarage k/d is about 10-15/1-2 so i don't think that the problem lies in my skills.

I think that mg turret IS OP and should be nerfed the way described above, the example showed above is about a well placed turret that stands alone and tbh if it was the only problem with it then i couldn't care less but when used properly in tandem with actual enemy it's way too power full.
Saying that it's not OP because one turret alone can't take you out is stupid because if it was the case then you'd call it a BUG and not an OP feauture.

The fact that detonator and missle turrets are UP is another case and should be aproached respectively.
(athough i'm not sure about the detonator which i must admit, i haven't tested thoroughly)

EDIT://

DarkPulse, on November 17 2012 - 06:46 AM, said:

To Beemann on Quake 3: Pretty much any match on Q3DM17. Or, if you prefer, Q3Tourney6.

Whoah, you're soo underestimating MG and shotgun, especially the MG with it's awesome precision and pushing power.
(And even plasma can be used on q3dm17  for quad to rail rocket SWOB or simply ground boosting but that's another story... and a little bit of an over-kill).

Edited by Sparkard, November 17 2012 - 06:13 PM.

[Beemann]

@Sparkard
I think you mean LG
MG makes it sound like you're talking about the CG, which actually does have a small CoF
LG is pinpoint-accurate and pushes targets

3Jane, on November 17 2012 - 02:54 PM, said:

Those q3 maps are just stupid pub maps

Pretty much

Edited by Beemann, November 17 2012 - 06:42 PM.

[Dreizehn]

Turrets are pretty powerful, but frankly I think they are balanced by their limitations.

Only 1 use.

It's completely static. Thus completely useless in a more mobile firefight.

Made of paper mache.

Sure it's powerful when used right and put in right places, but if so - their users deserve to reap the benefits. It's like saying the HE Charge is too powerful when someone who has learned to aim the thing starts pounding your ass with it.

[Beemann]

Dreizehn, on November 17 2012 - 07:25 PM, said:

Turrets are pretty powerful, but frankly I think they are balanced by their limitations.

Only 1 use.

It's completely static. Thus completely useless in a more mobile firefight.

Made of paper mache.

Sure it's powerful when used right and put in right places, but if so - their users deserve to reap the benefits. It's like saying the HE Charge is too powerful when someone who has learned to aim the thing starts pounding your ass with it.

Compare them to the other items
Not as powerful, can be countered more easily, almost as limited or just as limited in their use
You can also reap the benefits without actually being there. The skill floor for using an MG turret is practically non-existent  and there's not much of a learning curve when it comes to figuring out the "where" of using them

[D20Face]

AsianJoyKiller, on November 17 2012 - 11:17 AM, said:

D20Face, on November 17 2012 - 06:16 AM, said:

It doesn't matter what the owner of the turret does, the only ways to stop somebody from shooting at a turret are
A EMP (Using another item)
B Shield (Using another item)
C Standing in front of it, blocking it's line of sight.

Or push the enemy, forcing them to focus on you and avoiding your damage.
This is why my turrets last. The moment they're in range of my turret, I'm on them.
And sometimes they take it out, but most of them time, they're punished for not focusing on me, severely punished.

How is you shooting at me preventing me shooting at your turret_ It's not.

If I can't pay attention to two targets(with one being stationary) at a time I've failed as a human being. Focusing your turret for all of two clicks(1 and m2) that can be pressed at the exact same time isn't rocket science.

Pressure only matters when the person responds with fear. I am guaranteed to survive your first burst as any class since you don't have detonators/HE charges. I still have time to maneuver myself properly and rectify my position.

ALL of the worthwhile items tip the scale in favor of the user the second they're used. Heck, even if they don't hit directly the ones that need to be dodged at least force a dodge and guarantee a secondary attack hit.

AsianJoyKiller, on November 17 2012 - 11:17 AM, said:

Tell me, what other item requires the use of another item or a specific weapons loadout to complete mitigate it's advantage_

That's right. None.
All other items' advantages can be mitigated by either out-thinking your opponent or out-maneuvering them. It is binary. You are either in a turrets sights, or your not.
For it to be the only item that requires a rock, paper, scissors sort of balance is bad design.

It's not rock/paper/scissors. It's any worthwhile consumable but itself.

Any time a person uses an item in a non-retarded situation they tip the balance in their favor. Even a dodged HE charge contributes to a fight. I'm not talking mind games. I'm talking straight up, "dodge or get hit but the second you dodge I hit you with something else." Both people know there are only two options.

Pubs will die to anything. Good players will only die when faced with decisions that leave them no outs that don't include a loss. HE charges force those scenarios. MG turrets do not. A person can always, ALWAYS, choose not to go within it's sight after they see it. And no, it doesn't take over a second to backstep out of the line of fire when you see damage blips.

AsianJoyKiller, on November 17 2012 - 11:17 AM, said:

Shields don't take "no skill" to use.

Aiming straight down will net you an extreme amount of effectiveness. Moreso in my opinion that placing a turret in most cases.

The rest of the stuff is a skill ceiling, which is way higher than the turret with way more uses. It's more powerful in good hands and just as powerful in unskilled hands.

AsianJoyKiller, on November 17 2012 - 11:17 AM, said:

Then you do not know how to place turrets.

Please tell me this magical position that exists where they can hit you without being hit. In order to hit somebody with non-splash they have to be able to see you.

It can be gibbed at close range assuming they've taken anything BUT the MG turret. It can be taken out at long range with minimal hassle.

And if a shield is the answer then I have one too that will last just as long. I also have an offensive consumable that can damage through shields and you don't.

Edited by D20Face, November 17 2012 - 09:08 PM.

[AsianJoyKiller]

D20Face, on November 17 2012 - 09:03 PM, said:

How is you shooting at me preventing me shooting at your turret_ It's not.

If I can't pay attention to two targets(with one being stationary) at a time I've failed as a human being. Focusing your turret for all of two clicks(1 and m2) that can be pressed at the exact same time isn't rocket science.

Pressure only matters when the person responds with fear. I am guaranteed to survive your first burst as any class since you don't have detonators/HE charges. I still have time to maneuver myself properly and rectify my position.

Pressure works, even if you don't react with fear.
If you decide to go for the turret first, that guarantees at least some damage on you, plus in the time it takes you to react and take out the turret, I've had that same amount of time to react and attack you. This gives me the time to alpha strike first and even if you survive it, you are at a significant disadvantage.

However, this is an advantage of using a turret, and I see no problem with it.

Quote

ALL of the worthwhile items tip the scale in favor of the user the second they're used. Heck, even if they don't hit directly the ones that need to be dodged at least force a dodge and guarantee a secondary attack hit.

But how many of the items aim and shoot all by themselves_
And the second hit is not a guarantee, I've had good players miss me when they've forced a dodge.

Quote

AsianJoyKiller, on November 17 2012 - 11:17 AM, said:

Tell me, what other item requires the use of another item or a specific weapons loadout to complete mitigate it's advantage_

That's right. None.
All other items' advantages can be mitigated by either out-thinking your opponent or out-maneuvering them. It is binary. You are either in a turrets sights, or your not.
For it to be the only item that requires a rock, paper, scissors sort of balance is bad design.

It's not rock/paper/scissors. It's any worthwhile consumable but itself.

Any time a person uses an item in a non-retarded situation they tip the balance in their favor. Even a dodged HE charge contributes to a fight. I'm not talking mind games. I'm talking straight up, "dodge or get hit but the second you dodge I hit you with something else." Both people know there are only two options.

Pubs will die to anything. Good players will only die when faced with decisions that leave them no outs that don't include a loss. HE charges force those scenarios. MG turrets do not. A person can always, ALWAYS, choose not to go within it's sight after they see it. And no, it doesn't take over a second to backstep out of the line of fire when you see damage blips.

a) You never actually answer the question.
Forcing a dodge, like I said above, doesn't guarantee a hit.
c) Utilize a turret properly, and you can force a loss.
d) Yes, you can run away, but running away doesn't win objectives.
e) Yes, you can break LoS quicker than a second, but if you want to take out the turret, that means reengaging LoS and the defender is also now aware of you.

Quote

Aiming straight down will net you an extreme amount of effectiveness. Moreso in my opinion that placing a turret in most cases.

A properly utilized turret will last much longer than a shield and be doling out damage for quite a while, doing way more than any HE nade.

Quote

The rest of the stuff is a skill ceiling, which is way higher than the turret with way more uses. It's more powerful in good hands and just as powerful in unskilled hands.

Thanks for supporting my point_
Why should something with such a low skill ceiling be so effective_
If it has that low a skill ceiling, it should be one of the least effective items, not most effective.

Quote

Please tell me this magical position that exists where they can hit you without being hit. In order to hit somebody with non-splash they have to be able to see you.

Now you are making things up.
I never, never said they could hit people with out people being able to strike back.

Quote

It can be gibbed at close range assuming they've taken anything BUT the MG turret. It can be taken out at long range with minimal hassle.

If you take it at close range, you will take damage.
If you take it at long range, then it is a poorly placed turret, and I am not talking about poorly placed turrets.

Quote

And if a shield is the answer then I have one too that will last just as long. I also have an offensive consumable that can damage through shields and you don't.

How do you counter a well placed shield and completely mitigate its advantage_ Flank it, charge it, or out-wait it. No item needed.
How do you counter a well placed MGT and completely mitigate its advantage_ Avoid that area or use a item.
And yeah sure, I can't damage through a shield with my offensive item, but unless I am a Sharpshooter, I do have other options.
You know those things on your right arm_
The ones that shoot explosives.
Yeah.

[DarkPulse]

AsianJoyKiller, on November 17 2012 - 12:26 PM, said:

But that does does not validate pushing an item that is a aimbot with the advantage of permanence to be able to do the same damage as a primary weapons.

And for the record, the only people who think that what we mean by "nerf the turret" is "make it useless for damage" are on the side defending turrets.

Take a step back, and stop thinking in extremes. Nobody, at least no one reasonable, is asking for the MGT to be nerfed into oblivion.
We just don't want it to be doing the same sort of damage as a primary weapon.

Then, again, what is "acceptable damage_" There is a pretty fine line between it being a useful item and it being essentially useful only for detection as opposed to deterrence.

Again, the current assumption (which I sadly can't back up with numbers; the relevant entries are missing) is that it's 14x6 = 84 damage/sec. Reducing it even in small amounts has a profound effect on DPS:

• 13x6: 78 DPS
  
• 12x6: 72 DPS
  
• 11x6: 66 DPS
  
• 10x6: 60 DPS

Past the 60 DPS range, it's pretty much ineffective, but I have a feeling the people who feel it's too strong would say 78 or 72 DPS is still too strong (since the SMC can do 80 DPS). Thus, the minimum I think they would call for would be the 66 DPS option, which is still effective, but if it goes much lower than that, there's not much point in bothering with the thing for damage.

It does need to trade off damage over time. As it currently stands, it takes about 2.2 seconds to equal the damage of an HE Charge (again, assuming the 84 DPS figure is correct). If we reduce this down to a 66 DPS level, it takes 2.8 seconds to do the same amount of damage - it's a moderate nerf, but without making it useless. Dip to 60 DPS, though, and we're talking 3.1 seconds to do the damage - about as long as it would take a decent player to take it out, meaning that a good player can probably crack the thing in about two if he's predicting its location. This then makes them increasingly less dangerous against good players - which, arguably, is more harmful than it being too strong, because then it's an item that will only be dangerous to some players and not others.

120 damage is fairly small, though. Without any sort of boosts, you heal 35 armor per second in repair mode, with a two second delay to start repairing. This means that If you can get away from fire for 5.4 seconds (at worst), you've completely negated its damage; a more combat-focused player will no doubt have heal rate boosters and heal startup reducers.

Everyone has different levels of skill, and there's definitely arguments of why it's imbalanced over its semi-permanence, but I still feel that it's overall far less of a threat (unless encountered in groups) than someone who's good at slinging HE charges is. They may only get two, but if you get hit by both, you're at a pretty harsh disadvantage if you're in an A-Class or a B-Class, and even a C-Class will feel the sting. The only ones who really have to worry about turrets like that as they currently are, are the A-Class mechs... who are the best suited to getting away to heal.

So in the end, I feel it boils down to people not wanting to retreat to heal, which really should be one of the things that separates an average player from a good one.

AsianJoyKiller, on November 17 2012 - 12:26 PM, said:

Unfortunately, unless I see proof otherwise, I have to doubt that the teams were almost equally balanced.

I won't argue balance and tactics when, from what I can tell, the hypothetical teams in question are of at least moderately different skill levels.

That's fine and all; admittedly I'm probably one of the better players so I can handle myself better and as a result it's harder to put myself in more average levels. However, I still don't think it's really that hard for an average player to learn anti-turret tactics, or at least call one out if he spots one.

The way the game is balanced, you don't ever have a class that can do everything - you make tradeoffs for some things versus others. With an HE Grenade, you get massive up-front damage, but they take skill to use well, and you only get two, but if you manage to successfully hit both of those you'll do far more damage than the turret will to most people. With turrets, it does stick around and it does good damage, but it can be destroyed fairly quickly by a smart player, and it by no means guarantees victory any more than any other item, I feel. They are meant to be a deterrence weapon, and against someone of more average skill they may indeed be very powerful, but I feel that is only until someone learns the game.

AsianJoyKiller, on November 17 2012 - 12:26 PM, said:

My argument for why turrets are unbalanced is a whole.
Here, you have ignored the points I've made about autoaim and primary weapon DPS.
You cannot take one part out of context and claim that's why I think it is unbalanced, you must consider everything.

To do otherwise is to debate poorly.

Yet when I asked "what is fair DPS" you did not provide an answer. So again: What would you consider fair DPS_ 78_ 72_ 66_ 60_ Lower_

What does it take to trade off the autoaim (because I don't think that's going away - not unless they make the turret a manual item like in Planetside 2, in which case I'd expect way higher DPS because it makes you a sitting duck) for what you consider "fair" damage_

AsianJoyKiller, on November 17 2012 - 12:26 PM, said:

This argument started out strong, but failed once I read the third paragraph.
Again, you assume disparate levels of skill and intelligence.

The third part applies more for a stronger level of play, yes, but the first two can be done by just about anyone with an average level of skill. To do the mind games reliably takes an advanced level of play, but the simple fact of "either blow his turret up or draw him out" can be done by even an average player. So can forcing the guy out through some other tactic.

You can't deny there's ways to counter the turret, after all. There's no less than four, even if it's placed well. Some are more useful than others, but they do all work, more or less, and all provide enough time to get rid of the turret if nothing else. And if all else fails, you can always call for backup... though the player would have to be godly skilled to keep his turret and himself alive against a good player.

AsianJoyKiller, on November 17 2012 - 12:26 PM, said:

Once everyone knows them, yes, they make know where a turret may possibly be. But that is no guarantee that they'll know exactly where it will be or even if there will be one at all, so that knowledge will be of limited usefulness.

That knowledge also will not help make a cleverly placed turret any easier to take out.

Which is why you should be doing things like flinging HE Charges only if you're at least 90% sure something will be there, or else peek to see if it is. That said, if you got a GL or a TOW, you can check for free (since they do about the same damage, or even more in the TOW or GL's case, than a HE Charge).

That said, using items in general to turret check is a waste. You should be using your secondary weapon, if you can, to do most turret checks. And sometimes, it won't be there indeed - you just have to trust your gut, or else peek.

AsianJoyKiller, on November 17 2012 - 12:26 PM, said:

Once again, assuming differing levels of skill and intillegence.

And this is a problem how_ A better player is going to be smarter about it, yes, but taking out a turret isn't exactly as high-level as playing mind games.

A player who is not as good will get better with practice, as with all things. If anything, the more damage it does, the better it will be in training them of the threat of the turret and in making it a priority target. That's not to say I feel it should be boosted for this (I definitely don't feel it should be boosted) but I don't see why it should be reduced that much either. It's a potent threat that is to be respected and handled with care, but far from invincible or untouchable, even in farms. I've played other games that have had way, way worse turrets than Hawken's - to the point where a team farming a control point with turrets could pretty much keep the point until the enemy team brought a heavy vehicle in to take them out.

AsianJoyKiller, on November 17 2012 - 12:26 PM, said:

A turret that misses after a certain distance is either poorly placed or shooting an enemy that somehow made it behind allied lines (which in that case, kudos to the clever bugger).

I addressed the problem of using items to counter items in my reply to D20.

Also, overwhelming force should not be needed to counter one item.

Well, the simple fact is that the turret does have an effective range - which is actually only moderate at best. As I said, it begins to rapidly fall off after 20 meters. After 40, it's pretty much just asking to be destroyed. Unless this thing is placed extremely cleverly (and really, most places in the map don't let it be that close without being obvious), most turrets tend to be striking at targets at least 10 meters away, if not somewhat more.

Overwhelming force isn't needed to destroy a turret, but if the players are lower in skill, that's going to be how they have to counter it. Let's face it, even a 60 DPS turret will be a threat to a lower-skilled player, and I'm pretty sure even you would agree that lowering it past that would really make it not very effective as an item for actual defense/deterrence.

AsianJoyKiller, on November 17 2012 - 12:26 PM, said:

Perhaps that is a bit extreme, but the advantage it gives when used properly is quite major.

Also, you have, without a doubt, implied that we (pro-nerf people) advocate making the turret useless.
I am not the only one here guilty of being extreme in my remarks.

I'm not going to say I'm not either as that would be the pot calling the kettle black; however, I simply feel that it's not as powerful as people make it out to be.

It seems like every thing, class, or item that has some kind of perceived advantage is getting cries of nerf lately. In A2 and CBE1, it was Sharpshooters, because they can peck you from across the map and nobody knew how to fight them. Then people learned and I saw it far less. Same with Assaults in CBE1 - saw them everywhere at the start, they thinned out as people learned to counter the things and by CBE2 teams were a lot more varied in terms of classes. Then it became the Vulcan being OP - it does have very high DPS but the Flak Cannon is almost as strong yet nobody seems to be targeting Flak Cannon for nerfing, so I find complaints about the Vulcan silly since a properly-used Flak Cannon will do nearly as much damage (from nearly the same distances!) as the Vulcan, yet I've seen very few calls to nerf the Flak Cannon, and the only real difference is a handful of damage (Anywhere from 3-25 less perhaps assuming ideal aim and accounting for distance) when properly used and that the Flak Cannon takes 1.2 seconds to re-fire, while the Vulcan is constant tick damage.

Now here we are with turrets. I'm almost wondering what's next (I'm betting on the HEAT Cannon to be honest, or possibly the Grenade Launcher as it has some of the highest burst damage in the game at 245 per direct hit, even though it takes 5-6 seconds of cooldown) because it seems like anytime a weapon is perceived as too strong, there is a group of players who want to tone it down. I can see a lot of the arguments, but to me, none of the arguments have been very convincing; then again, I'm sure mine aren't convincing them, either. C'est la vie.

The problem is that while they're all strong, they're all strong in certain ways, and that when you take care to reduce or eliminate those strengths, they're not nearly as strong as they seem to be. Sharpshooters, get out of LOS and pay attention to your cover, while trying to get closer to engage as most Sharpshooters are worse at CQC. Assaults, make sure you move quite a bit and don't get pinned down by their TOWs. Vulcan, don't friggin' fight them face-to-face. MG Turret is almost the same except it does only about 60% of the Vulcan's DPS and has a much lower range, not to mention is far more immobile, though unlike the Vulcan, it can't overheat and it autoaims. But like the Sharpshooters and the Vulcan, when you get out of what they're good at, they become much less dangerous.

So simply put, I feel that while it may seem stiff at first, ultimately, it's not insurmountable, and that a player with a reasonable level of skill can destroy them before they take much more than 150 damage from them, as to take that much damage, they'd have to be very close to it or very poor at hitting a stationary target. If the enemy rushes them, then I would also think they'd be smart enough to try to run a bit to open up some space to fight, and unless the enemy is smart, the enemy will likely chase them... which negates their turret advantage.

AsianJoyKiller, on November 17 2012 - 12:26 PM, said:

A likely story. And I've never EMP'd myself.

Unless you want to upload and present every match you have played since Alpha to prove you never been shot by a turret 3+ times, I'm going to call BS on this.

My point was that I don't die to them, not that I don't get shot. They peck me a fair amount of the time, but then they become my priority target unless there's a better one, and I make it a mission to swiftly take them out. If there's a defender around, I do some tactics to discourage him from pursuing me; at worst I call for backup and do what damage I can to him before dying.

Keep in mind that I often use a Sharpshooter, though, so more often than not, I'm a great class for taking out turrets. Even if they kill me once, they definitely don't do it twice.

AsianJoyKiller, on November 17 2012 - 12:26 PM, said:

200 damage is a loss of 20% health to a health stacked C-Class. That is nothing to sniff at.
100 damage is a loss of 20% health to a A-class without any health additions. Again, nothing to sniff at.
I don't see how the loss of 20% (or more) of your health is a "minor" disadvantage when you're talking about a fight between equally skilled players.

And consider that the 20% loss of health is on top of anything that the owner/defender of a properly placed turret will be doing to you.

"Equally skilled players" to me is a very weak argument. It's very rare to find someone EXACTLY as good as you, so really this is not a likely scenario. That's probably why I mostly scoff at it. To me, such a hypothetical argument is little more than glorified strawmanning.

Most of the time, you will have someone either better or worse than you. If they're better than you, then obviously there's not much you can do because even if you take out their turret, odds are they're going to kill you anyway; if they're worse than you you'll likely take their turret out and kill them too, or you'll possibly kill them and the turret by killing them.

This still does not make up for the fact that even in this magical "Equal skill" situation, you can still take out the turret even if you're taken out. You may sacrifice a death to do it, but it will be gone, because while the mech will be moving, the turret will not. EMP it, put up a shield, throw up a hologram to confuse it, or just plain call for backup. In a team game, you have to make use of every avenue available to you; calling in backup or using an item is a flawed argument for claiming the turret is OP, because you're either negating its ability to fire, negating its ability to damage, or spreading the damage between yourself and another mech (which makes it do less to a given one). The only time your scenario works is in a pure free-for-all, i.e; DM - and turrets never, ever last long in DM if there's anyone playing intelligently due to the sheer number of people it will attack.

So simply put, the "equal skill" scenario that keeps getting postulated is silly, because if we're talking TRULY equal skill, then the odds are going to be with the aggressor, and the better ways to take out a turret means that, from a mech vs. mech POV, you're on the defensive. But either way, it should take most people a maximum of two tries to take out the turret if they know what they're doing.

Edited by DarkPulse, November 18 2012 - 01:58 AM.