151 replies to this topic

[DarkPulse]

Beemann, on November 15 2012 - 06:25 PM, said:

But that's only on a 1v1 basis
and ITYM 200, because you're not going to kill that thing in a second
Proper MG turret use = using it to flank, distract and/or harass opponents while you bring out the big guns
right now it does that TOO well. It can take an A mech down pretty quickly on its own if left to its own devices, and when combined with a decent player on any mech it's basically a 2v1 fight

Well, if a team's got a turret farm up, there's not much you can do except get at an angle where you can take them out one at a time (or call in a Sharpshooter to pick them off). If an enemy team can use tactics to lay them in a group, you can also use tactics to take them out as a group.

Lastly, there is no such thing as "proper" MG use. I use mine for a lot of things, not all of them for direct suppressive fire.

That and an A-Class should be taking the thing out from a distance, and be ready to turn and burn if need be. It's really not that hard.

[RudaForce]

DarkPulse, on November 15 2012 - 06:05 PM, said:

AsianJoyKiller, on November 15 2012 - 06:00 PM, said:

If the owner, or at least a teammate, is not near it, the turret is not being used properly.
It's like a HE charge lying out in the middle of nowhere, or a shield being placed away from combat.

When balancing items you have to consider how they perform in proper circumstances.
You can't think about the turret just sitting there by itself, you have to consider how powerful it is when used properly as a 3rd source of damage.

Ah, but see... that assumes one playstyle.

My turret is many things.

• Sometimes it's suppressive fire, in which case it's out-front and obvious.
  
• Sometimes it's part of a trap, in which case the enemy who is trying to slink away walks right into it, setting them up for an easier kill by making them panic. (In case you didn't notice, I love mind games.)
  
• Sometimes it's cleverly hidden, predicting where an enemy is likely to go, pecking them with damage when it does.
  
• Sometimes it's an early warning system, placed away on purpose so that I know when someone has gone to a certain place.
  
• In a pinch, it's the perfect momentary blockade, along with a tight corridor, to ensure I escape safely and can fight a little longer.

There are tons of uses for the turret. They're not strictly for pure offense.

Well that right there could easily be taken as OP; How many different uses it has. The HE Charge just does damage. The missile turret sucks. With an MG turret, just like you so clearly pointed out, you can accomplish many different things. You can use it as Offense, Defence, and Support. You can turn the tides of almost any battle, scout enemies out and more. Hell, put a shield around it and it's near invincible too; something that you can't do with an HE Charge.

[Beemann]

DarkPulse, on November 15 2012 - 06:32 PM, said:

Beemann, on November 15 2012 - 06:25 PM, said:

But that's only on a 1v1 basis
and ITYM 200, because you're not going to kill that thing in a second
Proper MG turret use = using it to flank, distract and/or harass opponents while you bring out the big guns
right now it does that TOO well. It can take an A mech down pretty quickly on its own if left to its own devices, and when combined with a decent player on any mech it's basically a 2v1 fight

Well, if a team's got a turret farm up, there's not much you can do except get at an angle where you can take them out one at a time (or call in a Sharpshooter to pick them off). If an enemy team can use tactics to lay them in a group, you can also use tactics to take them out as a group.

Lastly, there is no such thing as "proper" MG use. I use mine for a lot of things, not all of them for direct suppressive fire.

That and an A-Class should be taking the thing out from a distance, and be ready to turn and burn if need be. It's really not that hard.

It's not a team thing, and it's not a "farm" thing
It's just one guy and a turret
And I'm supposed to engage S1 and S3 in Titan from range how exactly_
The point is that it gives a disproportionate advantage compared to the other items when used in the most efficient way possible
Even without that, it still has a comparable output
And it doesn't take much effort to use. A newbie and a pro will get the same results from a turret placed in the same spot

[D20Face]

I honestly can't imagine a scenario where a turret would be able to survive more than three seconds against an opponent that knows what they're doing.

You don't focus down turrets first because they're OP, you focus them down first because in any situation you go after the lowest health target first to mitigate damage.

As has been said, 1 heat+nade and it's dead. 1 tow+flak and it's dead. While both of those are arguably close range, at any decent range it does piss damage. If you have an AR then use the secondary weapon and pop an HE on it at close and it always instantly gibs.

The game broadcasts to you that you're being hit by an MG turret with big, flashing red lights.

And again, if it really, REALLY bothers you that much, use a hologram or a shield. Both make you immune to MG turret fire. One even makes you immune to enemy bullets.

PS:Don't you dare diss my baby HE.

Edited by D20Face, November 15 2012 - 06:40 PM.

[DarkPulse]

RudaForce, on November 15 2012 - 06:32 PM, said:

Well that right there could easily be taken as OP; How many different uses it has. The HE Charge just does damage. The missile turret sucks. With an MG turret, just like you so clearly pointed out, you can accomplish many different things. You can use it as Offense, Defence, and Support. You can turn the tides of almost any battle, scout enemies out and more. Hell, put a shield around it and it's near invincible too; something that you can't do with an HE Charge.

...So now it's more OP because it's versatile_

"If it kills me or hurts me really bad, it's OP!" seems to be a common theme in this place. Snipers, Vulcans, now the MG turret.

I'm not against people having opinions, but why does everyone have to get into this habit of "one defined use_"

The whole point of a turret is to have multiple uses. It shouldn't be getting nerfed because I can use it a bit more creatively and others don't - this isn't my problem if I can out-strategize you and maximize the usefulness of my turret compared to you. You can put up a bunch of turrets in Team Fortress 2 as well, but there's mechanisms to stop the turret farms, like Ubercharging. Hawken doesn't have that, but its MG turrets aren't nearly as powerful.

If there's a turret farm, bust out a sniper and some heavier mechs and go and wreck them. It's not that hard. Really.

I'll go against putting a shield on the things, as well; that'd obviously make it annoying as heck (though even if a shield is dropped on it, it'll not be able to fire out of it). Point of the matter is I think that people are just not thinking about anti-turret farm tactics. Explosives and splash damage will wreck turret farms, and so will snipers. Make use of them!

Beemann, on November 15 2012 - 06:37 PM, said:

It's not a team thing, and it's not a "farm" thing
It's just one guy and a turret
And I'm supposed to engage S1 and S3 in Titan from range how exactly_
The point is that it gives a disproportionate advantage compared to the other items when used in the most efficient way possible
Even without that, it still has a comparable output
And it doesn't take much effort to use. A newbie and a pro will get the same results from a turret placed in the same spot

You don't. You can't put your turret so it can hit everywhere, so you have to make choices. It can help cover one point, but not the others.

It gives no "disproportionate" advantage against anyone who knows what they're doing. If I see a turret, and I have no better target, I smoke the turret. Why_ Precisely because they help lock down control. If you have no enemy nearby, your focus should always be on taking out the turret as quickly as possible. For me, this takes all of 2-3 seconds and I might be out a sliver of health; if it does more, fine, then I go away and heal. I certainly don't freak out because it did about as much damage to me as an HE Grenade (if not less; as I said, I can probably count on one hand the number of times I've died to ANY turrets, including farms, recently).

Lastly, your final point on newbie versus pro isn't quite correct. A newbie won't know the maps, they won't know the optimum placements, and they won't know where to put the turret for maximum use with maximum longevity. You have to learn the optimum placements, sight-lines, etc. A newbie will place it for direct point defense and little else.

Edited by DarkPulse, November 15 2012 - 06:46 PM.

[DM30]

DarkPulse, on November 15 2012 - 06:39 PM, said:

I'll go against putting a shield on the things, as well; that'd obviously make it annoying as heck (though even if a shield is dropped on it, it'll not be able to fire out of it).

Actually, it can fire out. That's one of the main functions of shields: one way fire. So that'll bump up the 'annoying' factor that extra bit, I think (And I will admit to being guilty of doing this when I'm really in a bind, so I would know. )

[DarkPulse]

DM30, on November 15 2012 - 07:08 PM, said:

Actually, it can fire out. That's one of the main functions of shields: one way fire. So that'll bump up the 'annoying' factor that extra bit, I think (And I will admit to being guilty of doing this when I'm really in a bind, so I would know. )

...Well, there's my thing learned for the day.

Guess I'll be using them more in CBE3.

[h0B0]

Woa this thread quickly became a monster.
I am glad everyone has shared their opinions and hope the devs will take a look at them.

Thank you.

[Beemann]

DarkPulse, on November 15 2012 - 06:39 PM, said:

You don't. You can't put your turret so it can hit everywhere, so you have to make choices. It can help cover one point, but not the others.

I mean from the perspective of the attacking A mech
How do I long range a turret set up at S1 or S3_ All angles of fire on decent turret placement require CQC fighting

DarkPulse, on November 15 2012 - 06:39 PM, said:

It gives no "disproportionate" advantage against anyone who knows what they're doing. If I see a turret, and I have no better target, I smoke the turret.

And within the context of there being an actual target there_ (IE the context I was referring to)
If you have someone there, it's a disproportionate power boost compared to HE and Detonator

DarkPulse, on November 15 2012 - 06:39 PM, said:

Lastly, your final point on newbie versus pro isn't quite correct. A newbie won't know the maps, they won't know the optimum placements, and they won't know where to put the turret for maximum use with maximum longevity. You have to learn the optimum placements, sight-lines, etc. A newbie will place it for direct point defense and little else.

You can learn turret placement in about 2 matches
You can learn turret placement from seeing a map layout
You can learn turret placement from watching a video on turret placement
You can't do the same thing with the H.E or the Detonator, and a pro will outdo a newbie with both of those
They can't outdo said newbie with the turret, in terms of pure turret output

[TheChaffeemancer]

Beemann, on November 15 2012 - 07:40 PM, said:

They can't outdo said newbie with the turret, in terms of pure turret output

Pssssh, what a scrub. Whenever Kiwi's in a game he outturrets all the newbies. Have you considered that you are bad at turret output_

[DarkPulse]

Beemann, on November 15 2012 - 07:40 PM, said:

I mean from the perspective of the attacking A mech
How do I long range a turret set up at S1 or S3_ All angles of fire on decent turret placement require CQC fighting

You predict your opponent's paths. Place them in the blind corners. Place them so they're looking at likely exit points.

The thing doesn't need to be on S1 or S3 to let you know someone's near it. That's part of the key.

Beemann, on November 15 2012 - 07:40 PM, said:

And within the context of there being an actual target there_ (IE the context I was referring to)
If you have someone there, it's a disproportionate power boost compared to HE and Detonator

If there's a turret firing at me and a target, my first instinct is not "fight," it's "get out of the way of the turret." If the target chases me, great, I got a fight without a turret. If not, I stick-and-move and pepper him while trying to ensure I'm minimally exposed to the turret, as (presuming the turret is from the guy who's there) killing him also kills the turret.

It's just a change in tactics; that's all you have to adopt. Believe me, you can neuter a guy who depends on turrets and cripple his ability to use them, and if he insists on not chasing, you can harrass him and pop him enough that he isn't going to get out of there alive.

That's not even going into things like calling for backup...

Beemann, on November 15 2012 - 07:40 PM, said:

You can learn turret placement in about 2 matches
You can learn turret placement from seeing a map layout
You can learn turret placement from watching a video on turret placement
You can't do the same thing with the H.E or the Detonator, and a pro will outdo a newbie with both of those
They can't outdo said newbie with the turret, in terms of pure turret output

They can't outdo them with the damage, but they can outdo them with the versatility of use.

A lot of people place turrets in rather obvious places - I've only seen a few real clever ones. Those are the ones that catch me.

However, a player who is able to use an item better should not have that item automatically barkered because some people aren't so good at using it. That's the whole point. Why should the turret have to become less of a tactical choice and more of a nerf blaster because some people aren't as good at placing it/avoiding it/countering it_ It makes no sense.

Edited by DarkPulse, November 15 2012 - 08:07 PM.

[Beemann]

DarkPulse, on November 15 2012 - 08:06 PM, said:

The thing doesn't need to be on S1 or S3 to let you know someone's near it. That's part of the key.

I guess I wasn't clear enough
I'll try again
How do I attack a turret that is set up at S1 or S3 from long range_
The answer is that I can't feasibly do that, because they're MEANT to be close quarters regions

DarkPulse, on November 15 2012 - 08:06 PM, said:

If there's a turret firing at me and a target, my first instinct is not "fight," it's "get out of the way of the turret." If the target chases me, great, I got a fight without a turret. If not, I stick-and-move and pepper him while trying to ensure I'm minimally exposed to the turret, as (presuming the turret is from the guy who's there) killing him also kills the turret.

It's just a change in tactics; that's all you have to adopt. Believe me, you can neuter a guy who depends on turrets and cripple his ability to use them, and if he insists on not chasing, you can harrass him and pop him enough that he isn't going to get out of there alive.

That's not even going into things like calling for backup...

I'm talking about two skilled players here. Nobody decent is going to stand there like an fuzzy bunny while you whittle them down when they have the point, a firepower advantage, and cover. He doesn't need to leave, you need to get IN

And I'm not going to even get into how wrong it is to suggest that forcing the other team to use two players to beat one of equal skill when we're having a discussion concerning balance

DarkPulse, on November 15 2012 - 08:06 PM, said:

They can't outdo them with the damage, but they can outdo them with the versatility of use.

lolwut_ Name something you can do with an HE that you can't do more easily with an MG turret

DarkPulse, on November 15 2012 - 08:06 PM, said:

A lot of people place turrets in rather obvious places - I've only seen a few real clever ones. Those are the ones that catch me.

That's irrelevant. We don't balance things based off of poor usage
We base them off of what good players do with them

DarkPulse, on November 15 2012 - 08:06 PM, said:

However, a player who is able to use an item better should not have that item automatically barkered because some people aren't so good at using it. That's the whole point. Why should the turret have to become less of a tactical choice and more of a nerf blaster because some people aren't as good at placing it/avoiding it/countering it_ It makes no sense.

Except the skill curve with a turret is MUCH lower than that of the H.E or Detonator, and the maximum and minimum outputs are much lower

We shouldn't let something do that much damage when it takes so little effort to use, particularly when it's so versatile AND when it has permanence

And you shouldn't have a situation where turret spam becomes an acceptable and viable practice. If it's acceptable to have turrets remain powerful enough that backup is needed, that's what you'll get

[Conquistador]

D20Face, on November 15 2012 - 06:39 PM, said:

You don't focus down turrets first because they're OP, you focus them down first because in any situation you go after the lowest health target first to mitigate damage.

Actually, this is incorrect. You focus down turrets first because if you ignore them, they will PUNISH you severely. They do way too much sustained damage for any mech to operate under their umbrella and just ignore them.

I go after turrets first because they always kill me if I don't. This is especially true in light mechs like the Berserker. Ignoring a turret is tantamount to suicide if you want to fight in a certain area. You either take it out or run to more advantageous ground. There's no in-between.

Beemann, on November 15 2012 - 08:28 PM, said:

DarkPulse, on November 15 2012 - 08:06 PM, said:

They can't outdo them with the damage, but they can outdo them with the versatility of use.

lolwut_ Name something you can do with an HE that you can't do more easily with an MG turret

I can think of one: Build situational awareness by using it like an early warning system. Turrets auto-track. When was the last time your HE grenade told you a berserker was sneaking up behind your sharpshooter_

Additionally: when was the last time you hid an HE grenade inside a hologram_

Edited by Conquistador, November 15 2012 - 08:48 PM.

[D20Face]

Beemann, on November 15 2012 - 08:28 PM, said:

DarkPulse, on November 15 2012 - 08:06 PM, said:

The thing doesn't need to be on S1 or S3 to let you know someone's near it. That's part of the key.

I guess I wasn't clear enough
I'll try again
How do I attack a turret that is set up at S1 or S3 from long range_
The answer is that I can't feasibly do that, because they're MEANT to be close quarters regions

I thought we already determined than an MG turret won't last two seconds at close range because it can be instantaneously gibbed at close range by any class.

Even if you catch a person off guard and assume they trip for a second. One second. 80-120 damage. Less than an HE charge.

Beemann, on November 15 2012 - 08:28 PM, said:

DarkPulse, on November 15 2012 - 08:06 PM, said:

They can't outdo them with the damage, but they can outdo them with the versatility of use.

lolwut_ Name something you can do with an HE that you can't do more easily with an MG turret

Hit a person inside a shield, down an enemy MG turret, use it twice, burst a light class down.

Beemann, on November 15 2012 - 08:28 PM, said:

DarkPulse, on November 15 2012 - 08:06 PM, said:

A lot of people place turrets in rather obvious places - I've only seen a few real clever ones. Those are the ones that catch me.

That's irrelevant. We don't balance things based off of poor usage
We base them off of what good players do with them

Good players won't die to MG turrets.

[Beemann]

Conquistador you done got it mixed up. I'm saying the HE grenade has less utility, and you're just agreeing with me by showing examples that support my statement
I do appreciate it though

[Conquistador]

Beemann, on November 15 2012 - 08:48 PM, said:

Conquistador you done got it mixed up. I'm saying the HE grenade has less utility, and you're just agreeing with me by showing examples that support my statement
I do appreciate it though

... I TOTALLY MISSED THE POINT. Must've misread it somewhere.

You clever dog! And here you had me worried for a moment.

Also yes. I do totally agree with you.

Edited by Conquistador, November 15 2012 - 09:17 PM.

[DarkPulse]

Beemann, on November 15 2012 - 08:28 PM, said:

I guess I wasn't clear enough
I'll try again
How do I attack a turret that is set up at S1 or S3 from long range_
The answer is that I can't feasibly do that, because they're MEANT to be close quarters regions

Splash damage and prediction. After awhile you should know where the popular places for turrets are, so get into the habit of using a splash-damage weapon and blind-firing. If you get a hit pip, you know fun is just around the corner.

Otherwise, if you really want to check, boost forward into the general area, turn to face some kind of wall, and then side-dash out. You should at least hear it fire, if not plink you once or twice.

Lastly, you do know that you can survey a good half of the point from on top of those points, right..._ And that they kind of suck at shooting upwards..._

Beemann, on November 15 2012 - 07:40 PM, said:

I'm talking about two skilled players here. Nobody decent is going to stand there like an fuzzy bunny while you whittle them down when they have the point, a firepower advantage, and cover. He doesn't need to leave, you need to get IN

And I'm not going to even get into how wrong it is to suggest that forcing the other team to use two players to beat one of equal skill when we're having a discussion concerning balance

So_ It's a back and forth game. If he got entrenched in there, you force him out. Then you get to entrench.

A player should not be penalized for setting up shop on a silo point, or a EU collection point. Neither should equipment choices be made so that they're magically ineffective for doing so. Otherwise, what's the point of having the thing in the first place_

The simple fact of the matter is that there eventually is a winner and a loser in an evenly skilled battle, and since skill is equal, it'll be whoever out-thinks the opponent. Believe me, you can give him hell. And yes, if the fight is that even, calling backup for support is exactly what you're supposed to do, because it's what he can do too! In this case (Missile Assault or Siege), it's a team game. Stop trying to force a solo player solution as the "end-all, be-all" of what is supposed to be balance in a team-based game mode. Play as a TEAM!

Still not satisfied with that answer_ Fine, here's a simple one: EMP the damn thing. It stops it from shooting just like an enemy. I remember smoking a few turrets this way (albeit on accident, but I've since incorporated it into my tactics repertoire if need be... though EMPs are usually better saved for more mobile enemies).

Beemann, on November 15 2012 - 07:40 PM, said:

lolwut_ Name something you can do with an HE that you can't do more easily with an MG turret

Hit someone who is hiding behind cover. Next_

Beemann, on November 15 2012 - 07:40 PM, said:

That's irrelevant. We don't balance things based off of poor usage
We base them off of what good players do with them

Well gee, then I guess we'd better make the Sabot rifle have middling accuracy because some people are good with them. While we're at it, let's make the TOW and Grenade not explode when triggered because some people are good at that, and heck, let's just disable dodging because some people are good with that.

In a few words: No, you don't balance around the top players. You balance around a middleground. You want to make it so that top players can't use it to the point where it becomes an "I win" button in their hands, but you also don't make it so gimpy that nobody uses it because it's useless. Even you agreed all that most people would need to learn effective turret use would be a few matches tops. Therefore, the item should not be debuffed because a player is simply making intelligent use of it and is placing it so that you take some damage, and you're not as good at it - that's a player skill gap, and that's not the devs' job to make it so that you can beat an opponent if you have inferior skills, tactics, and strategies; you have to improve at some level or another if you can't beat someone. It may well be "place and forget" but that doesn't automatically mean it's a weapon that's so dominant you have no recourse and no way to take it out. I could see if this thing had like double the health, but it doesn't; you can take it out in a handful of seconds, you can EMP it to stop it for five (more than enough to take it out), you can toss down a shield, step inside, and blow it to bunny hell; there's a bunch of ways to counteract the thing.

Chopping it is not the answer here - using your noodle is the answer.

Beemann, on November 15 2012 - 07:40 PM, said:

Except the skill curve with a turret is MUCH lower than that of the H.E or Detonator, and the maximum and minimum outputs are much lower

We shouldn't let something do that much damage when it takes so little effort to use, particularly when it's so versatile AND when it has permanence

...Until it's blown up, anyway, which takes a couple of seconds to do. Permanence_ Only if the other team can't find where it is and destroy it - which is not so much of a problem with the item as opposed to the lack of experience and/or skill on the enemy team.

Beemann, on November 15 2012 - 07:40 PM, said:

And you shouldn't have a situation where turret spam becomes an acceptable and viable practice. If it's acceptable to have turrets remain powerful enough that backup is needed, that's what you'll get

But if they're not viable, what use are they_ What good is it if the turrets shoot a string of BBs, or rubber bullets_

The turret needs to have some oomph, or it's not a deterrent, which is ultimately what the point of using the turret is - "I don't want you here." If nobody fears/respects the things, then they're worthless and should be removed or revamped. However, somebody putting down a turret isn't an automatic "I win" button - you can still counter the turret, you can destroy the turret, and if you're that bad at fighting them you can EMP them and blow them up with ease.

Turrets aren't hard. Turrets are easy. They're in a good position where they are of being something to be reckoned with, without being too powerful or too cheap. Simply put, if you can't deal with someone who lays down a turret, then that means you probably need to practice countering that situation a bit better, because if the devs wanted just gun fights, we'd have no items at all.

Edited by DarkPulse, November 15 2012 - 09:00 PM.

[Zeshi]

DarkPulse, on November 15 2012 - 08:56 PM, said:

Beemann, on November 15 2012 - 08:28 PM, said:

I guess I wasn't clear enough
I'll try again
How do I attack a turret that is set up at S1 or S3 from long range_
The answer is that I can't feasibly do that, because they're MEANT to be close quarters regions

Splash damage and prediction. After awhile you should know where the popular places for turrets are, so get into the habit of using a splash-damage weapon and blind-firing. If you get a hit pip, you know fun is just around the corner.

Otherwise, if you really want to check, boost forward into the general area, turn to face some kind of wall, and then side-dash out. You should at least hear it fire, if not plink you once or twice.

Lastly, you do know that you can survey a good half of the point from on top of those points, right..._ And that they kind of suck at shooting upwards..._

Beemann, on November 15 2012 - 07:40 PM, said:

I'm talking about two skilled players here. Nobody decent is going to stand there like an fuzzy bunny while you whittle them down when they have the point, a firepower advantage, and cover. He doesn't need to leave, you need to get IN

And I'm not going to even get into how wrong it is to suggest that forcing the other team to use two players to beat one of equal skill when we're having a discussion concerning balance

So_ It's a back and forth game. If he got entrenched in there, you force him out. Then you get to entrench.

A player should not be penalized for setting up shop on a silo point, or a EU collection point. Neither should equipment choices be made so that they're magically ineffective for doing so. Otherwise, what's the point of having the thing in the first place_

The simple fact of the matter is that there eventually is a winner and a loser in an evenly skilled battle, and since skill is equal, it'll be whoever out-thinks the opponent. Believe me, you can give him hell. And yes, if the fight is that even, calling backup for support is exactly what you're supposed to do, because it's what he can do too! In this case (Missile Assault or Siege), it's a team game. Stop trying to force a solo player solution as the "end-all, be-all" of what is supposed to be balance in a team-based game mode. Play as a TEAM!

Still not satisfied with that answer_ Fine, here's a simple one: EMP the damn thing. It stops it from shooting just like an enemy. I remember smoking a few turrets this way (albeit on accident, but I've since incorporated it into my tactics repertoire if need be... though EMPs are usually better saved for more mobile enemies).

Beemann, on November 15 2012 - 07:40 PM, said:

lolwut_ Name something you can do with an HE that you can't do more easily with an MG turret

Hit someone who is hiding behind cover. Next_

Beemann, on November 15 2012 - 07:40 PM, said:

That's irrelevant. We don't balance things based off of poor usage
We base them off of what good players do with them

Well gee, then I guess we'd better make the Sabot rifle have middling accuracy because some people are good with them. While we're at it, let's make the TOW and Grenade not explode when triggered because some people are good at that, and heck, let's just disable dodging because some people are good with that.

In a few words: No, you don't balance around the top players. You balance around a middleground. You want to make it so that top players can't use it to the point where it becomes an "I win" button in their hands, but you also don't make it so gimpy that nobody uses it because it's useless. Even you agreed all that most people would need to learn effective turret use would be a few matches tops. Therefore, the item should not be debuffed because a player is simply making intelligent use of it and is placing it so that you take some damage, and you're not as good at it - that's a player skill gap, and that's not the devs' job to make it so that you can beat an opponent if you have inferior skills, tactics, and strategies; you have to improve at some level or another if you can't beat someone. It may well be "place and forget" but that doesn't automatically mean it's a weapon that's so dominant you have no recourse and no way to take it out. I could see if this thing had like double the health, but it doesn't; you can take it out in a handful of seconds, you can EMP it to stop it for five (more than enough to take it out), you can toss down a shield, step inside, and blow it to bunny hell; there's a bunch of ways to counteract the thing.

Chopping it is not the answer here - using your noodle is the answer.

Beemann, on November 15 2012 - 07:40 PM, said:

Except the skill curve with a turret is MUCH lower than that of the H.E or Detonator, and the maximum and minimum outputs are much lower

We shouldn't let something do that much damage when it takes so little effort to use, particularly when it's so versatile AND when it has permanence

...Until it's blown up, anyway, which takes a couple of seconds to do. Permanence_ Only if the other team can't find where it is and destroy it - which is not so much of a problem with the item as opposed to the lack of experience and/or skill on the enemy team.

Beemann, on November 15 2012 - 07:40 PM, said:

And you shouldn't have a situation where turret spam becomes an acceptable and viable practice. If it's acceptable to have turrets remain powerful enough that backup is needed, that's what you'll get

But if they're not viable, what use are they_ What good is it if the turrets shoot a string of BBs, or rubber bullets_

The turret needs to have some oomph, or it's not a deterrent, which is ultimately what the point of using the turret is - "I don't want you here." If nobody fears/respects the things, then they're worthless and should be removed or revamped. However, somebody putting down a turret isn't an automatic "I win" button - you can still counter the turret, you can destroy the turret, and if you're that bad at fighting them you can EMP them and blow them up with ease.

Turrets aren't hard. Turrets are easy. They're in a good position where they are of being something to be reckoned with, without being too powerful or too cheap. Simply put, if you can't deal with someone who lays down a turret, then that means you probably need to practice countering that situation a bit better, because if the devs wanted just gun fights, we'd have no items at all.

Darkpulse, nobody is arguing for gimping turrets to the point where they are not useful it all. They are simply too useful compared to the H.E. charge at this point. Reducing their damage is not going to ruin the game or make them worthless. I think we both remember a nda protected time when turrets did not do this much damage and yet were still useful for the tactics you have described.

Edit- I think there is a happy medium between them shooting bb gun pellets and OH MY GOD MY FACE YOU BLEW OFF MY FACE!

Edit part 2- This thread should have a poll like the vulcan one

Edited by Zeshi, November 15 2012 - 09:08 PM.

[Zeshi]

Btw, everything else shows up on the mini map when firing. Even cloaked infiltrators lose their cloak and show up on radar when firing. Turrets need to show up when firing as well (but only when firing. Having this show up all the time would be completely ridiculous)

[DarkPulse]

Zeshi, on November 15 2012 - 09:03 PM, said:

Darkpulse, nobody is arguing for gimping turrets to the point where they are not useful it all. They are simply too useful compared to the H.E. charge at this point. Reducing their damage is not going to ruin the game or make them worthless. I think we both remember a nda protected time when turrets did not do this much damage and yet were still useful for the tactics you have described.

Edit- I think there is a happy medium between them shooting bb gun pellets and OH MY GOD MY FACE YOU BLEW OFF MY FACE!

It was useful as everything but a deterrent, yes. There's a reason they got buffed between then and now - because... well, they stunk. They gave you the detection and all that but nobody feared the things. You laughed as they exploded in all sorts of pretty colors, kind of like Pyroland.

The basic point of this is that the HE Charge is massive, up-front damage, while the turret is smaller, sustained damage. In the case of the HE Grenade, you get two of them; they do 185 apiece. If you land both and nail direct hits, you just landed 370 damage, which is enough (with some shooting) to very likely wreck most any A-Class and be wanting to make a B-Class scramble for some cover. On the other hand, you'd have to be pretty green, or incredibly distracted, to ever have 370 damage done to you by the turret. You can do it in four seconds with the HE Grenade (due to the two second use cooldown), and if we assume 14 x 6 = 84 is an accurate DPS for the turret, it'd take... wait for it... about 4.5 seconds to do!

Therefore, if anything, DPS is higher on the HE Grenade, meaning that technically, it's more useful short-term. Few players will ever take 4.5 seconds to take out a turret, meaning that ultimately, the turret is far less of a threat than the grenades are; it only becomes a threat when people don't focus on taking it out, which is pretty much a top priority for any skilled player if there's no bigger target nearby.

Zeshi, on November 15 2012 - 09:13 PM, said:

Btw, everything else shows up on the mini map when firing. Even cloaked infiltrators lose their cloak and show up on radar when firing. Turrets need to show up when firing as well (but only when firing. Having this show up all the time would be completely ridiculous)

This is just a "Kill me" button. If you can't find the turret by sound and noticing which direction you're being shot from, do you really need your hand held by the radar pointing it out_ Should it flash a day-glo color, too_

The reason mechs are shown is mechs move. Turrets don't. Use your eyes and your ears and you'll have no problems.

Edited by DarkPulse, November 15 2012 - 09:19 PM.