151 replies to this topic

[Beemann]

defekt, on November 15 2012 - 02:31 PM, said:

AsianJoyKiller, on November 15 2012 - 02:21 PM, said:

defekt, on November 15 2012 - 02:17 PM, said:

Beemann, on November 15 2012 - 01:26 PM, said:

On a 1v1 against a turret, I'm guaranteed to go into the red on my infil, and that IS with cover usage and only really popping out to fire grenades

I'm not going to get bogged down in a slanging match over this because I broadly agree with you that they're a tad on the hot side at the moment but your continual use of exaggeration is beginning to undermine your argument.  Are you seriously expecting me to believe that you can't go 1-on-1 against an MG turret in a HEAT Infil without it taking you into the red_  Either I'm Kryptonite to turrets* or you're doing something very, very wrong.

* I'm not.

Beemann, for some strange reason, doesn't like the HEAT. He uses the AR.
It confuses and bewilders me.

Well that does go some way to explain matters because those turrets do seem to be dog-hard to hit with high ROF weapons at middle to long range.  Even so, I ran an AR Infil for longer than I did with HEAT and although I did need to get a bit closer to make the AR hits count, I was still nowhere near being forced into the red; he must have been headbutting the damn thing!  

The DPS on that thing is definitely over 100, and I'm out of cover 2x (once per nade)
Assuming I don't have ESP, I'll spend probably about a second spotting it, and then maybe another one getting back to cover while shooting it
It all depends on how much fuel I have, where the closest bit of cover is etc.
Then I've gotta pop out again and shoot it
I can either edge out and get shot until I have LOS, or pop out and shoot it and wait for the travel time of the nade
Either of which is another second

Basically unless you're front-loading heat and GL damage you're going to have a sizeable chunk taken out of your health even if your opponent doesn't know you're there
That's dumb, considering the minimum damage of one of those things is equivalent to a direct hit HE, and it's guaranteed
It's especially dumb when you consider the fact that it can (and in Asian's case WILL) last the whole match

As for my AR usage, I find that it provides some really nice long range harassment. I pretty much only run into trouble when fighting NotKJell on his HEAT/GL Infil or Asian on his Flak/TOW Brawler in a small space

I do, however, get kills stolen from me all the time (mostly by Asian)

Edited by Beemann, November 15 2012 - 02:45 PM.

[TheChaffeemancer]

Yeah, but with an AR you get to steal kills too, so it balances out.

[Beemann]

TheChaffeemancer, on November 15 2012 - 02:58 PM, said:

Yeah, but with an AR you get to steal kills too, so it balances out.

Kinda
I actually started hunting Asian's kills to make up for the Kill:Kill Steal discrepancy
Because I was KDR whoring that day to see the kind of difference I could make
For the most part I try to assist, harass and get my own kills, though I'm not going to lose sleep over an accidental steal here or there
Ultimately the enemy being dead is the most important bit, and if I've got a whole bunch of people on my team stealing each others kills, we're probably in good shape as far as getting rid of opposing players goes

Edited by Beemann, November 15 2012 - 03:17 PM.

[AsianJoyKiller]

Beemann is just mad because I can steal his kills across the map with my HEAT.

[Beemann]

Or with your AFKMG that half the team defends

[DarkPulse]

Turrets only do huge chunks of damage if you're next to them. Get even 25m away from then and all of a sudden they can barely touch you. Taking them out from a distance should be your first thought; a TOW rocket can take one down to one bar of health (so I think they only have about 250-300 health).

The spawn problem could be solved by giving spawn protection for a handful of seconds (5 or so) or until a player fires, whatever comes first.

Lastly, STRONGLY disagree with making them show up on radar. If they start showing up on radar, they'll never last, which denies the use of a lot of clever tricks and traps and makes them effectively worthless for all but an extremely minor distraction. They're already loud and spottable enough as it is - we don't need to hold your hands and show people where the turrets are so you can destroy them.

Edited by DarkPulse, November 15 2012 - 03:27 PM.

[Beemann]

DarkPulse, on November 15 2012 - 03:27 PM, said:

Turrets only do huge chunks of damage if you're next to them. Get even 25m away from then and all of a sudden they can barely touch you. Taking them out from a distance should be your first thought; a TOW rocket can take one down to one bar of health (so I think they only have about 250-300 health).

It's probably too bad that the maps aren't all measured out in such a way that you can guarantee a 25+m engagement then huh
Also try doing damage with an HE grenade at that range. Remember that there are other options in that slot that should be equally viable

[AsianJoyKiller]

DarkPulse, on November 15 2012 - 03:27 PM, said:

Turrets only do huge chunks of damage if you're next to them. Get even 25m away from then and all of a sudden they can barely touch you. Taking them out from a distance should be your first thought; a TOW rocket can take one down to one bar of health (so I think they only have about 250-300 health).

If you can take out a turret from a distance with out being attacked by it's owner, then either it's poorly placed, or unattended.

[DarkPulse]

Beemann, on November 15 2012 - 03:33 PM, said:

It's probably too bad that the maps aren't all measured out in such a way that you can guarantee a 25+m engagement then huh
Also try doing damage with an HE grenade at that range. Remember that there are other options in that slot that should be equally viable

HE Grenade does 185 for a direct hit, so it'd leave it with 2 bars of health.

Even then, if I can't guarantee a 25m engagement, I dash out of its range (i.e; behind cover), dash back in, 1-2 it. It's usually dust, considering what classes I play.

AsianJoyKiller, on November 15 2012 - 03:33 PM, said:

If you can take out a turret from a distance with out being attacked by it's owner, then either it's poorly placed, or unattended.

Yes, and then I kill the owner who placed it for his insolence.

Edited by DarkPulse, November 15 2012 - 03:47 PM.

[Beemann]

DarkPulse, on November 15 2012 - 03:46 PM, said:

Beemann, on November 15 2012 - 03:33 PM, said:

It's probably too bad that the maps aren't all measured out in such a way that you can guarantee a 25+m engagement then huh
Also try doing damage with an HE grenade at that range. Remember that there are other options in that slot that should be equally viable

HE Grenade does 185 for a direct hit, so it'd leave it with 2 bars of health.

Even then, if I can't guarantee a 25m engagement, I dash out of its range (i.e; behind cover), dash back in, 1-2 it. It's usually dust, considering what classes I play.

What I mean is that trying to use the HE grenade in a similar situation will give you no damage, as opposed to some damage
an HE grenade in CQC will do about as much damage as a turret firing for 2 seconds
So in your ideal engagement within 25m, you've taken an aimbotted HE to the face, and the owner could be halfway across the map
All it has to do is survive for 4 seconds in a fight and you've outdone two perfect HE throws
That's silly

[DarkPulse]

Beemann, on November 15 2012 - 04:02 PM, said:

What I mean is that trying to use the HE grenade in a similar situation will give you no damage, as opposed to some damage
an HE grenade in CQC will do about as much damage as a turret firing for 2 seconds
So in your ideal engagement within 25m, you've taken an aimbotted HE to the face, and the owner could be halfway across the map
All it has to do is survive for 4 seconds in a fight and you've outdone two perfect HE throws
That's silly

You'd have to be pretty bad with situational awareness to eat four full seconds of MG Turret fire, considering that the game will at least show you the direction it's hitting you from.

Don't get me wrong, I get your points, but again, making the thing too obvious or too underpowered means it's just a waste of space. If we're going to make them do weak damage, and show up on radar, then they're not threats - only annoyances. They need to have some kind of punch to be effective deterrents.

[AsianJoyKiller]

DarkPulse, on November 15 2012 - 05:12 PM, said:

Beemann, on November 15 2012 - 04:02 PM, said:

What I mean is that trying to use the HE grenade in a similar situation will give you no damage, as opposed to some damage
an HE grenade in CQC will do about as much damage as a turret firing for 2 seconds
So in your ideal engagement within 25m, you've taken an aimbotted HE to the face, and the owner could be halfway across the map
All it has to do is survive for 4 seconds in a fight and you've outdone two perfect HE throws
That's silly

You'd have to be pretty bad with situational awareness to eat four full seconds of MG Turret fire, considering that the game will at least show you the direction it's hitting you from.

Don't get me wrong, I get your points, but again, making the thing too obvious or too underpowered means it's just a waste of space. If we're going to make them do weak damage, and show up on radar, then they're not threats - only annoyances. They need to have some kind of punch to be effective deterrents.

We're not saying their ridiculously OP, but wouldn't you consider them having Primary Weapon damage to be on the overdone side of things_

[Beemann]

DarkPulse, on November 15 2012 - 05:12 PM, said:

Beemann, on November 15 2012 - 04:02 PM, said:

What I mean is that trying to use the HE grenade in a similar situation will give you no damage, as opposed to some damage
an HE grenade in CQC will do about as much damage as a turret firing for 2 seconds
So in your ideal engagement within 25m, you've taken an aimbotted HE to the face, and the owner could be halfway across the map
All it has to do is survive for 4 seconds in a fight and you've outdone two perfect HE throws
That's silly

You'd have to be pretty bad with situational awareness to eat four full seconds of MG Turret fire, considering that the game will at least show you the direction it's hitting you from.

Don't get me wrong, I get your points, but again, making the thing too obvious or too underpowered means it's just a waste of space. If we're going to make them do weak damage, and show up on radar, then they're not threats - only annoyances. They need to have some kind of punch to be effective deterrents.

It`s not about dealing that damage all to one person on a 1v1 basis, just like you don`t expect to instantly hit all of your HE shots
Over the course of the match you get better mileage out of a turret if you play alongside it. It`s a free flanking tool with killer DPS, and it`s pretty hard to use it at the wrong time
You can use it to force your enemy into a corner and just kinda have your way with them. It allows for excessively aggressive play in fights where normally caution would win out, making the fights less thinky and more run-and-gun

Honestly, they were still a pain to deal with in previous iterations, and they felt like a good trade-off for the H.E given that one is for front-loading damage and the other is good for pressuring, spotting and harassing

[DarkPulse]

AsianJoyKiller, on November 15 2012 - 05:19 PM, said:

We're not saying their ridiculously OP, but wouldn't you consider them having Primary Weapon damage to be on the overdone side of things_

It'd really help if I could find an entry for the minigun turret, but I can't. I can find entries for the Rocket turret and another turret I'd better not talk about, but not that one...

Point is, how much do you reduce the thing_ Even a change of 3 damage per second has big, long-term repercussions.

Let's assume then, for the sake of argument, that it does 14 per bullet, and hits six times a second. This means 14*6 = 84 damage. It would take approximately 6 seconds to take out a standard A-Class, 8 seconds to take out a standard B-Class, and 10 seconds to take out a standard C-Class.

Change the damage to 11, so 11*6 = 66 damage. The times now go up to about 7.5 seconds for A-Class, 10.2 for B-Class, and nearly 13 seconds for C-Class.

Obviously, you can't factor in if the owner is nearby or not, but you can't say the turret is OP just because of that possibility. The simple fact is, even for a lighter class, you'd have to be pretty much TRYING to be seriously hurt by it for it to do more than affect a little bit of your armor. One grenade and one HEAT shot later, this thing is toast. Same with a TOW and either a flak shot or a burst of Assault Rifle fire. Pretty much nearly any class can 1-2 it by hitting it with their secondary, then their primary - even the Sharpshooter.

To put things in reference, the Submachine Cannon does 10 per hit, and it fires 8x a second, so exactly 80 damage. Assault Rifle does closest to this, at 88.88... a second. So really, it's closest to those two weapons in terms of strength - powerful, but not any more game breaking than they are.

The simple fact of the matter is that if you find a turret, and you've got no bigger priorities, your priority should be on making it dead as quickly as possible - and, just in case, trying to figure out where the owner would likely show up.

Edited by DarkPulse, November 15 2012 - 05:48 PM.

[nonsiccus]

defekt, on November 15 2012 - 08:44 AM, said:

Treat the cause of a problem, not a symptom of it.  In your scenario the cause is spawn point abuse and the dual MG turrets are merely a symptom of that.

If this is merely a symptom, why was this not prevalent before the increase in damage_ Spawn mechanics are the same then as now, the variable having changed being the turrets.

[AsianJoyKiller]

DarkPulse, on November 15 2012 - 05:47 PM, said:

Obviously, you can't factor in if the owner is nearby or not, but you can't say the turret is OP just because of that possibility. The simple fact is, even for a lighter class, you'd have to be pretty much TRYING to be seriously hurt by it for it to do more than affect a little bit of your armor. One grenade and one HEAT shot later, this thing is toast. Same with a TOW and either a flak shot or a burst of Assault Rifle fire. Pretty much nearly any class can 1-2 it by hitting it with their secondary, then their primary - even the Sharpshooter.

If the owner, or at least a teammate, is not near it, the turret is not being used properly.
It's like a HE charge lying out in the middle of nowhere, or a shield being placed away from combat.

When balancing items you have to consider how they perform in proper circumstances.
You can't think about the turret just sitting there by itself, you have to consider how powerful it is when used properly as a 3rd source of damage.

[DarkPulse]

AsianJoyKiller, on November 15 2012 - 06:00 PM, said:

If the owner, or at least a teammate, is not near it, the turret is not being used properly.
It's like a HE charge lying out in the middle of nowhere, or a shield being placed away from combat.

When balancing items you have to consider how they perform in proper circumstances.
You can't think about the turret just sitting there by itself, you have to consider how powerful it is when used properly as a 3rd source of damage.

Ah, but see... that assumes one playstyle.

My turret is many things.

• Sometimes it's suppressive fire, in which case it's out-front and obvious.
  
• Sometimes it's part of a trap, in which case the enemy who is trying to slink away walks right into it, setting them up for an easier kill by making them panic. (In case you didn't notice, I love mind games.)
  
• Sometimes it's cleverly hidden, predicting where an enemy is likely to go, pecking them with damage when it does.
  
• Sometimes it's an early warning system, placed away on purpose so that I know when someone has gone to a certain place.
  
• In a pinch, it's the perfect momentary blockade, along with a tight corridor, to ensure I escape safely and can fight a little longer.

There are tons of uses for the turret. They're not strictly for pure offense.

Edited by DarkPulse, November 15 2012 - 06:06 PM.

[Beemann]

So basically turrets should be balanced around their least effective usage_
Doesn't sound very fair to me

[DarkPulse]

Beemann, on November 15 2012 - 06:08 PM, said:

So basically turrets should be balanced around their least effective usage_
Doesn't sound very fair to me

No, just saying that really if you know what you're doing, they have no real chance in doing anything more than about 100, 150 damage tops to you. That's nothing really. Tons of weapons can do more damage than that, instantly.

For an example of how not to do turrets, see the Rocket Turret, which pretty much everyone agrees is useless and needs a massive buff. Its sole advantage_ Quieter and a lot harder to notice, but its rockets only do 45 damage each - a pittance.

Edited by DarkPulse, November 15 2012 - 06:18 PM.

[Beemann]

DarkPulse, on November 15 2012 - 06:17 PM, said:

Beemann, on November 15 2012 - 06:08 PM, said:

So basically turrets should be balanced around their least effective usage_
Doesn't sound very fair to me

No, just saying that really if you know what you're doing, they have no real chance in doing anything more than about 100, 150 damage tops to you. That's nothing really. Tons of weapons can do more damage than that, instantly.

But that's only on a 1v1 basis
and ITYM 200, because you're not going to kill that thing in a second
Proper MG turret use = using it to flank, distract and/or harass opponents while you bring out the big guns
right now it does that TOO well. It can take an A mech down pretty quickly on its own if left to its own devices, and when combined with a decent player on any mech it's basically a 2v1 fight