151 replies to this topic

[D20Face]

Actually a 2 second cooldown means it should take 2 seconds to use. The first use has no cooldown.

So that's 370 damage in two seconds.

Edited by D20Face, November 15 2012 - 09:23 PM.

[Zeshi]

DarkPulse, on November 15 2012 - 09:15 PM, said:

Zeshi, on November 15 2012 - 09:03 PM, said:

Darkpulse, nobody is arguing for gimping turrets to the point where they are not useful it all. They are simply too useful compared to the H.E. charge at this point. Reducing their damage is not going to ruin the game or make them worthless. I think we both remember a nda protected time when turrets did not do this much damage and yet were still useful for the tactics you have described.

Edit- I think there is a happy medium between them shooting bb gun pellets and OH MY GOD MY FACE YOU BLEW OFF MY FACE!

It was useful as everything but a deterrent, yes. There's a reason they got buffed between then and now - because... well, they stunk. They gave you the detection and all that but nobody feared the things. You laughed as they exploded in all sorts of pretty colors, kind of like Pyroland.

The basic point of this is that the HE Charge is massive, up-front damage, while the turret is smaller, sustained damage. In the case of the HE Grenade, you get two of them; they do 185 apiece. If you land both and nail direct hits, you just landed 370 damage, which is enough (with some shooting) to very likely wreck most any A-Class and be wanting to make a B-Class scramble for some cover. On the other hand, you'd have to be pretty green, or incredibly distracted, to ever have 370 damage done to you by the turret. You can do it in four seconds with the HE Grenade (due to the two second use cooldown), and if we assume 14 x 6 = 84 is an accurate DPS for the turret, it'd take... wait for it... about 4.5 seconds to do!

Therefore, if anything, DPS is higher on the HE Grenade, meaning that technically, it's more useful short-term. Few players will ever take 4.5 seconds to take out a turret, meaning that ultimately, the turret is far less of a threat than the grenades are; it only becomes a threat when people don't focus on taking it out, which is pretty much a top priority for any skilled player if there's no bigger target nearby.

Zeshi, on November 15 2012 - 09:13 PM, said:

Btw, everything else shows up on the mini map when firing. Even cloaked infiltrators lose their cloak and show up on radar when firing. Turrets need to show up when firing as well (but only when firing. Having this show up all the time would be completely ridiculous)

This is just a "Kill me" button. If you can't find the turret by sound and noticing which direction you're being shot from, do you really need your hand held by the radar pointing it out_ Should it flash a day-glo color, too_

The reason mechs are shown is mechs move. Turrets don't. Use your eyes and your ears and you'll have no problems.

Right...except thats assuming two perfectly landed h.e. grenades (not an easy feat to pull off unless the enenmy is boosting straight towards you), whereas a turret does its damage with no input/skill from the user whatsoever.

And you should really try taking down a turret with a GL and an AR at medium range whilst dodging enemy fire, i think you will find it taking on average AT least 4.5 secs (obviously very dependent on aim, but still even the most skilled player will have problems landing Ar rounds on such a small target due to head bob)

And no, mechs are shown when firing even if they don't move.  But for the record, i could live with turrets not showing up on radar (although i wouldn't like it) if they had a very distinct sound. Currently they sound either just like regular AR/SMG or too close to really tell.

P.S. Please stop implying people who want it rebalanced need to L2P (day glo comment). Its not constructive and only serves to alienate people from your position.

Edit- I personally subscribe to the theory that they were actually buffed on accident when buffing the in-base turrets. I doubt we will ever get confirmation on that though

Edited by Zeshi, November 15 2012 - 09:31 PM.

[D20Face]

Zeshi, on November 15 2012 - 09:28 PM, said:

Right...except thats assuming two perfectly landed h.e. grenades (not an easy feat to pull off unless the enenmy is boosting straight towards you)

It's as easy as hitting with the GL, only you get more of them.

Zeshi, on November 15 2012 - 09:28 PM, said:

even the most skilled player will have problems landing Ar rounds on such a small target due to head bob)

Nope. I'm not skilled and I can do it way sooner than that.

[Zeshi]

D20Face, on November 15 2012 - 09:36 PM, said:

Zeshi, on November 15 2012 - 09:28 PM, said:

Right...except thats assuming two perfectly landed h.e. grenades (not an easy feat to pull off unless the enenmy is boosting straight towards you)

It's as easy as hitting with the GL, only you get more of them.

Zeshi, on November 15 2012 - 09:28 PM, said:

even the most skilled player will have problems landing Ar rounds on such a small target due to head bob)

Nope. I'm not skilled and I can do it way sooner than that.

Its not as easy as hitting with GL. GL nades fire in a very predictable, medium distance. H.e. nades fire a very short distance. To land them confortably you have to get into the turrets death zone.

As far as your second response, whatever you say D20. Whatever you say.

Edited by Zeshi, November 15 2012 - 09:44 PM.

[Zeshi]

I really don't want to get into another protracted argument that solves nothing so this will hopefully be my last contribution. I actually don't think the mg turret is that op, just needs two things. (edit- actually needs is a strong word. Just things id like to see. Because unlike the Vulcan i don't think its game breaking, its just a teensy bit too powerful and could live with it if it stayed the way it is. But if they don't change it for CB3 i'm definitely lifting my turret embargo and ill start abusing it on a frequent basis myself instead of holding back in the name of fair play)

1. It does need to appear on the mini map when firing darkpulse. Mechs appear when firing, so should turrets. It dosen't even need to look any different from a mech signature. Its not a giant "kill me" alert any more than when another mech is shooting at you (or more importantly someone else)

2. Mechs weapons build up heat, so should turrets as well. Now a turret should not be able to overheat (that would just be silly) but it should have to cool down for say 2 secs for every 6 secs of firing (just throwing numbers out there). Being able to fire forever feels very wrong.

Edited by Zeshi, November 15 2012 - 10:05 PM.

[Beemann]

D20Face, on November 15 2012 - 08:46 PM, said:

I thought we already determined than an MG turret won't last two seconds at close range because it can be instantaneously gibbed at close range by any class.

Even if you catch a person off guard and assume they trip for a second. One second. 80-120 damage. Less than an HE charge.

No, you just made the assertion that it can be instantaneously gibbed at close range by any class
You're going to take damage from that turret no matter what, and factoring in travel time and the like means you're going to be taking at least an HE grenade of damage, which is automatically better than the minimum damage with 2 HE Grenades (IE zero)
You also can't have someone rush you when you drop your turret and have it hit you for just as much damage

D20Face, on November 15 2012 - 08:46 PM, said:

Hit a person inside a shield, down an enemy MG turret, use it twice, burst a light class down.

The first one is the only really valid one, though I'd like to point out that all you have to do is move away from said explosive and you're good to go. A shield will still block the damage if you use it wisely. A turret will bring an enemy turret down just as much as an HE grenade would, barring outside interference
And instead of bursting them down, they can melt them with vulcan fire. Not a huge difference there

As for this nonsense about how good players aren't going to die as a result of turrets being used...
Alright, so if I ever cause anyone to die to a turret, they're bad right_ Cuz everyone should be able to fight an equally skilled player who ALSO has a turret set up, and they should win every time
Cuz nobody good dies to turrets

DarkPulse, on November 15 2012 - 08:56 PM, said:

Splash damage and prediction. After awhile you should know where the popular places for turrets are, so get into the habit of using a splash-damage weapon and blind-firing. If you get a hit pip, you know fun is just around the corner.

So my only option is to constantly shoot around every corner so I don't get 200 health autoshaved off in a fight against a turret
That's really balanced. I can see why that's totally equivalent to two grenades that dish out 185 each

DarkPulse, on November 15 2012 - 08:56 PM, said:

Otherwise, if you really want to check, boost forward into the general area, turn to face some kind of wall, and then side-dash out. You should at least hear it fire, if not plink you once or twice.

Lastly, you do know that you can survey a good half of the point from on top of those points, right..._ And that they kind of suck at shooting upwards..._

If I want to check, I have to take, at minimum, one second of fire, or take a completely different route to the point
Yeah I can see why you would take an HE grenade over a turret

DarkPulse, on November 15 2012 - 08:56 PM, said:

So_ It's a back and forth game. If he got entrenched in there, you force him out. Then you get to entrench.

A player should not be penalized for setting up shop on a silo point, or a EU collection point. Neither should equipment choices be made so that they're magically ineffective for doing so. Otherwise, what's the point of having the thing in the first place_

The simple fact of the matter is that there eventually is a winner and a loser in an evenly skilled battle, and since skill is equal, it'll be whoever out-thinks the opponent. Believe me, you can give him hell. And yes, if the fight is that even, calling backup for support is exactly what you're supposed to do, because it's what he can do too! In this case (Missile Assault or Siege), it's a team game. Stop trying to force a solo player solution as the "end-all, be-all" of what is supposed to be balance in a team-based game mode. Play as a TEAM!

You havent explained how you force an equally skilled opponent out.
Setting up shop on an EU or Silo point is its own reward. You're defending a point you control. You're ALREADY winning, and anyone coming towards you has to do so slowly or you can see them on radar and you have the element of surprise on your side
You don't need an aimbotting vulcan in the corner to provide another advantage on top of it

And the point of having the EU node or the Silo is to win...

If a turret makes fight uneven on a 1v1 level (IE to the point where you honestly have to call in backup), what do I use to counter 6 turrets_
Should a team be able to hold both points because 3 people with 1 turret each is equivalent to 6 people_
How is that balanced_

DarkPulse, on November 15 2012 - 08:56 PM, said:

Still not satisfied with that answer_ Fine, here's a simple one: EMP the damn thing. It stops it from shooting just like an enemy. I remember smoking a few turrets this way (albeit on accident, but I've since incorporated it into my tactics repertoire if need be... though EMPs are usually better saved for more mobile enemies).

So now it's worth wasting an EMP on_ Wow you're really selling this device to me. I can totally see how it's completely balanced compared to the HE grenade. That slot is full of so many optimal solutions

DarkPulse, on November 15 2012 - 08:56 PM, said:

Hit someone who is hiding behind cover. Next_

So that's one to Conquistador's one

DarkPulse, on November 15 2012 - 08:56 PM, said:

Well gee, then I guess we'd better make the Sabot rifle have middling accuracy because some people are good with them. While we're at it, let's make the TOW and Grenade not explode when triggered because some people are good at that, and heck, let's just disable dodging because some people are good with that.

Now you're just strawmanning
There's a difference between trying to nerf good players, and recognizing that proper usage of something is overly powerful. Placing a turret in any decent position gives too much of an advantage for the amount of effort required to use it (read: basically none)
Especially when you compare it to the effort required and output gained with an HE grenade

DarkPulse, on November 15 2012 - 08:56 PM, said:

In a few words: No, you don't balance around the top players. You balance around a middleground. You want to make it so that top players can't use it to the point where it becomes an "I win" button in their hands, but you also don't make it so gimpy that nobody uses it because it's useless. Even you agreed all that most people would need to learn effective turret use would be a few matches tops. Therefore, the item should not be debuffed because a player is simply making intelligent use of it and is placing it so that you take some damage, and you're not as good at it - that's a player skill gap, and that's not the devs' job to make it so that you can beat an opponent if you have inferior skills, tactics, and strategies; you have to improve at some level or another if you can't beat someone. It may well be "place and forget" but that doesn't automatically mean it's a weapon that's so dominant you have no recourse and no way to take it out. I could see if this thing had like double the health, but it doesn't; you can take it out in a handful of seconds, you can EMP it to stop it for five (more than enough to take it out), you can toss down a shield, step inside, and blow it to bunny hell; there's a bunch of ways to counteract the thing.

I'm actually really surprised and disappointed by this, because you've entirely missed the point, and I really didn't expect that
It doesn't take all that much skill to use the turret, it just takes basic map knowledge
It doesn't take a pro player to get proper usage out of a turret, it just takes someone who knows one of the "turret spots"
You don't balance around the middle because then high skilled players break your game
If you want an example of this, go play Firefall (if you need a beta key, I can send you one)
Recons DOMINATE high-end play, because they're balanced around people who are average (and thus not very effective) at recon
Same goes for the Dreadnaught. That class has one of the lowest skill floors and highest outputs in the game because it's balanced around a playerbase that isn't that great at shooting and positioning

Want a good example of a game with good balance based around high end play_ Quake works for that, as does Starcraft

DarkPulse, on November 15 2012 - 08:56 PM, said:

...Until it's blown up, anyway, which takes a couple of seconds to do. Permanence_ Only if the other team can't find where it is and destroy it - which is not so much of a problem with the item as opposed to the lack of experience and/or skill on the enemy team.

Permanence holds other advantages. If you predict poorly and toss a nade where you think an opponent will be, and they don't show_
BAM wasted item, potential damage lowered by 185
Do the same thing with a turret_ S'all good, just wait for the next guy
And again, in that "couple seconds" you have HE grenade damage, and the chance to flank and destroy
A couple seconds of fire from a turret+a conscious player with even mediocre aim = mediocre player wins
Your only choice is to back off, or hope that said player is absolutely terrible


Nobody's saying they shouldn't be viable. What we're saying is that they were viable ALREADY and now they're just too powerful in comparison to the other slot items

[Conquistador]

Beemann, on November 15 2012 - 10:13 PM, said:

DarkPulse, on November 15 2012 - 08:56 PM, said:

Hit someone who is hiding behind cover. Next_

So that's one to Conquistador's one

I resent that! I mentioned TWO things (e.g. Early warning system + Hiding turrets in holograms for hilarious tomfoolery). There's no way we're tied. I should be WINNING.

Edited by Conquistador, November 15 2012 - 10:28 PM.

[AsianJoyKiller]

Beeman pretty much covered absolutely everything I was going to address.

So I'll point to this.

Beemann, on November 15 2012 - 10:13 PM, said:

Nobody's saying they shouldn't be viable. What we're saying is that they were viable ALREADY and now they're just too powerful in comparison to the other slot items

[Beemann]

Conquistador, on November 15 2012 - 10:27 PM, said:

I resent that! I mentioned TWO things (e.g. Early warning system + Hiding turrets in holograms for hilarious tomfoolery). There's no way we're tied. I should be WINNING.

Hah
I was trying to make it fair
If you want though, you can counter both D20 and DarkPulse entirely, and then I can just leave those disadvantages the HE grenade has out as a bonus

[Conquistador]

Beemann, on November 15 2012 - 10:42 PM, said:

Conquistador, on November 15 2012 - 10:27 PM, said:

I resent that! I mentioned TWO things (e.g. Early warning system + Hiding turrets in holograms for hilarious tomfoolery). There's no way we're tied. I should be WINNING.

Hah
I was trying to make it fair
If you want though, you can counter both D20 and DarkPulse entirely, and then I can just leave those disadvantages the HE grenade has out as a bonus

Oh, the hilarity of late night conversation.

I would very much like to counter both of them. And I didn't even mention how you can use the turret to complete block off escape routes. LITERALLY so, to the point where you can troll light mechs trying to escape narrow areas like the Siege AA and the corridors of Alleys. You can physically block off some routes with the turret so that they round a corner trying to run from you and headbutt a turret. Unorthodox_ Yes. Utilitarian_ Definitely. Can you do that with the HE grenade_  Nope.

When I play Brawler, nothing fills me with more joy than to corner a sneaky infiltrator between the horrifying flabs of my armoured bulk and the impassable wall of an MG turret I stuck around the corner. (Also, good luck trying to fly over an MG turret when you're in the red or under an AA roof. In fact, I dare you. I DOUBLE dare you. In this case the MG turret transforms into a speedbump. Which fires bullets.)

Edited by Conquistador, November 15 2012 - 11:06 PM.

[Beemann]

Conquistador, on November 15 2012 - 10:46 PM, said:

Oh, the hilarity of late night conversation.

I would very much like to counter both of them. And I didn't even mention how you can use the turret to complete block off escape routes. LITERALLY so, to the point where you can troll light mechs trying to escape narrow areas like the Siege AA and the corridors of Alleys. You can physically block off some routes with the turret so that they round a corner trying to run from you and headbutt a turret. Unorthodox_ Yes. Utilitarian_ Definitely. Can you do that with the HE grenade_  Nope.

I think collision as a whole is an area that could use some fixing
I do use turrets in a similar sort of manner, by placing them in corridors that I sharpshooter in (though I haven't played much sharpshooter since A2)

Conquistador, on November 15 2012 - 10:46 PM, said:

When I play Brawler, nothing fills me with more joy than to corner a sneaky infiltrator between the horrifying flabs of my armoured bulk and the impassable wall of an MG turret I stuck around the corner. (Also, good luck trying to fly over an MG turret when you're in the red or under an AA roof. In fact, I dare you. I DOUBLE dare you.)

Honestly squishing A mechs on a C is one of the most satisfying things I've done in a shooter
It's so fun to bully people when you've got a good health stack

[Conquistador]

Beemann, on November 15 2012 - 11:04 PM, said:

Conquistador, on November 15 2012 - 10:46 PM, said:

When I play Brawler, nothing fills me with more joy than to corner a sneaky infiltrator between the horrifying flabs of my armoured bulk and the impassable wall of an MG turret I stuck around the corner. (Also, good luck trying to fly over an MG turret when you're in the red or under an AA roof. In fact, I dare you. I DOUBLE dare you.)

Honestly squishing A mechs on a C is one of the most satisfying things I've done in a shooter
It's so fun to bully people when you've got a good health stack

I mostly play A-class mechs (i.e. Infiltrator/Berserker) and even I think this is a hilarious utilitarian use of an item for C class mechs. It can be sadistically cruel because it adds insult to injury, like a hot girl totally cockblocking you on a first date. "Thought you were escaping to third base with no clothes and 30 health points, did you_ I don't think so, son!" <insert explosion here>

For EVEN MORE utility: add to this the fact you can use the MG turret to climb things faster when paired with vertical boost. That's how some people exploited the map in previous builds of the game, by using the MG turret as a stool or ladder to get a leg up *snicker* on the competition and reach places past the normal max altitude of the mech you're using, since the turret counts as a piece of terrain when you deploy it. This gets you into high ground vantage points you're not supposed to reach, or can help you climb buildings faster. They haven't implemented grenade jumping in HAWKEN physics, so good luck using your HE grenades as a springboard.

... I can do this all night. The MG turret has RIDICULOUS amounts of utility compared to the HE grenade. It's the swiss army knife item. The HE grenade is more like a... club. That explodes. (And now I have the odd mental image of cavemen hitting each other on the head with HE grenades. Good fun.)

Edited by Conquistador, November 15 2012 - 11:22 PM.

[defekt]

Beemann, on November 15 2012 - 02:43 PM, said:

As for my AR usage, I find that it provides some really nice long range harassment. I pretty much only run into trouble when fighting NotKJell on his HEAT/GL Infil or Asian on his Flak/TOW Brawler in a small space

I'm with you on the AR; it's far more versatile over nearly all ranges than most give it credit for IMO.  I'm planning on going back to an AR Infil for CB3, regardless of whether or not the HEAT Infil gets hit with the Balance Hammer^tm (which I suspect it might).

[defekt]

nonsiccus, on November 15 2012 - 05:49 PM, said:

defekt, on November 15 2012 - 08:44 AM, said:

Treat the cause of a problem, not a symptom of it.  In your scenario the cause is spawn point abuse and the dual MG turrets are merely a symptom of that.

If this is merely a symptom, why was this not prevalent before the increase in damage_ Spawn mechanics are the same then as now, the variable having changed being the turrets.

With all due respect, you're still missing the point.

[DarkPulse]

Going to split my reply into two posts here; the forum apparently doesn't like the fact I used so many quoteboxes.

D20Face, on November 15 2012 - 09:22 PM, said:

Actually a 2 second cooldown means it should take 2 seconds to use. The first use has no cooldown.

So that's 370 damage in two seconds.

Math never was my best subject.

Zeshi, on November 15 2012 - 09:28 PM, said:

Right...except thats assuming two perfectly landed h.e. grenades (not an easy feat to pull off unless the enenmy is boosting straight towards you), whereas a turret does its damage with no input/skill from the user whatsoever.

And you should really try taking down a turret with a GL and an AR at medium range whilst dodging enemy fire, i think you will find it taking on average AT least 4.5 secs (obviously very dependent on aim, but still even the most skilled player will have problems landing Ar rounds on such a small target due to head bob)

Difference is, I'm not going to use the AR first - I'm going to use the GL first. Actually, if I'm playing the classes the way I'd play them, I'm not going to be using the AR at all - I'd be running HEAT and GL on that Infiltrator, and between the grenade and a charged HEAT shot, the turret is toast, generally from a distance where I'll take minimal damage.

Zeshi, on November 15 2012 - 09:28 PM, said:

And no, mechs are shown when firing even if they don't move.  But for the record, i could live with turrets not showing up on radar (although i wouldn't like it) if they had a very distinct sound. Currently they sound either just like regular AR/SMG or too close to really tell.

P.S. Please stop implying people who want it rebalanced need to L2P (day glo comment). Its not constructive and only serves to alienate people from your position.

Edit- I personally subscribe to the theory that they were actually buffed on accident when buffing the in-base turrets. I doubt we will ever get confirmation on that though

They're not really that close - then again, I never really try to differentiate. To me, fire is fire. Usually the only people I see with ARs are Assault classes; I almost never see SMCs being used.

And I'm really not trying to go to a "Learn2Play" thing, but I get kind of incensed when I go "Call for backup if you can't beat him" and the response is "lolno, it's about a 1v1 fight and it should be absolutely balanced!"

No it isn't.

It's a team game mode, so it's a team game. If you can't force someone off a point, you call for help. It has nothing to do with that not being "balanced," it's what the game's designed for, or we wouldn't have a "Request Help" button. Lone wolfing isn't going to get you very far, but if people want to play He-Man in a mech, I guess it's their choice. Me, on the occasions I do need help, hell yes I'll call for help.

My point is that really, turrets are a threat only if you're constantly caught by surprise by them somehow. Realistically, I'd expect most players to catch on to the tactics and tricks most people use them for, after which their threat level plummets like a barrel over Niagara Falls.

Zeshi, on November 15 2012 - 09:59 PM, said:

1. It does need to appear on the mini map when firing darkpulse. Mechs appear when firing, so should turrets. It dosen't even need to look any different from a mech signature. Its not a giant "kill me" alert any more than when another mech is shooting at you (or more importantly someone else)

Except for the fact enemy mechs move. See a nearly steady dot (because it's firing constantly) that never moves_ You know it's a turret. Might as well head over there and blow it up...

Zeshi, on November 15 2012 - 09:59 PM, said:

2. Mechs weapons build up heat, so should turrets as well. Now a turret should not be able to overheat (that would just be silly) but it should have to cool down for say 2 secs for every 6 secs of firing (just throwing numbers out there). Being able to fire forever feels very wrong.

I could somewhat see this, but that relies on the argument that this thing will actually be firing that long, and unless it can see a whole enemy team, that almost never happens. A player who's aware smashes these things fast. Even then, it really doesn't do much, since to be honest, once a team knows where it is, the turret is not long for this world. All you're doing is saving them from a pittance of damage.

Beemann, on November 15 2012 - 10:13 PM, said:

As for this nonsense about how good players aren't going to die as a result of turrets being used...
Alright, so if I ever cause anyone to die to a turret, they're bad right_ Cuz everyone should be able to fight an equally skilled player who ALSO has a turret set up, and they should win every time
Cuz nobody good dies to turrets

No, but if they were dumb enough to leave it alive and focus on you while getting chewed up, they probably deserve to have been killed. Especially since instead of trying to draw you out or hit-and-run the turret, they engaged. That's just plain bad tactics.

Therefore, yes, if you kill someone in this way, they made a bad tactical play. They deserve to get punished by re-entering the respawn queue accordingly.

Beemann, on November 15 2012 - 10:13 PM, said:

So my only option is to constantly shoot around every corner so I don't get 200 health autoshaved off in a fight against a turret
That's really balanced. I can see why that's totally equivalent to two grenades that dish out 185 each

For the turret to take off over 200 health, you'd have to be very close to this thing (like within 20 meters; the accuracy falls off pretty sharply around then), and somehow have a weapon combination that's just plain not suited to taking these things out. Thing is, pretty much any class's secondary weapon is guaranteed to do most of the damage, meaning it should take only a burst of fire from your primary to finish it.

Again, there are weapons that can hit it from a distance. There's angles you can use to investigate blind corners sometimes, but on occasion you're just going to have to rely on gut instincts to tell you if a turret is there or not and prepare accordingly.

Also, you're completely ignoring the bits I said about EMPs or shields.

Beemann, on November 15 2012 - 10:13 PM, said:

If I want to check, I have to take, at minimum, one second of fire, or take a completely different route to the point
Yeah I can see why you would take an HE grenade over a turret

...They're turrets. They're designed to deter you from routes to a point. Are they not supposed to_

Also, no, you can do this in about 1/3rd to 1/2 second with practice. Even then, a few pips of damage shouldn't be end of the world stuff, man.

Beemann, on November 15 2012 - 10:13 PM, said:

You havent explained how you force an equally skilled opponent out.
Setting up shop on an EU or Silo point is its own reward. You're defending a point you control. You're ALREADY winning, and anyone coming towards you has to do so slowly or you can see them on radar and you have the element of surprise on your side
You don't need an aimbotting vulcan in the corner to provide another advantage on top of it

You're winning that point. If the other team has the other two points, then all you're doing is giving your team a chance. You're not magically improving their chances of winning, since if the other team holds the other two silos, or collects EU faster, you lose.

As for my strategy_ Simple, I blow up the turret. The player is another factor entirely. If it means taking a hit or two, fine - it's not like it will be a problem for me except in a purely theoretical situation like this one. I call out to my team there's a guy at this point; they arrive to help me flush him out or, if I get killed, I've weakened him enough so that for them it's easy mop-up work.

It's a team game. I use my team. If he doesn't, it doesn't matter that he's evenly skilled to me. That's how I win.

[DarkPulse]

Beemann, on November 15 2012 - 10:13 PM, said:

And the point of having the EU node or the Silo is to win...

If a turret makes fight uneven on a 1v1 level (IE to the point where you honestly have to call in backup), what do I use to counter 6 turrets_
Should a team be able to hold both points because 3 people with 1 turret each is equivalent to 6 people_
How is that balanced_

I don't have to call in backup over the turret, and in practice, rarely do I have to call it on due to the player (as I'm probably one of the better players around here). Thus, this situation is all very theoretical to me, because in practice, I'll get the player and the turret at least 70% of the time.

Turrets simply are not the powerful stomping machines you think they are. They're deadly only if you focus on the owner of the turret first and take tons of shots as a result. The turret should ALWAYS be your target first, because the human target is affected by human aim and heat. The turret is not.

It's a simple prioritization.

And I've also told you other ways to help you get rid of it. You don't even need to risk yourself to fire if you got a shield handy. Of course, the enemy will rush into your shield if he's smart, but by that time you should have the turret dead.

Beemann, on November 15 2012 - 10:13 PM, said:

So now it's worth wasting an EMP on_ Wow you're really selling this device to me. I can totally see how it's completely balanced compared to the HE grenade. That slot is full of so many optimal solutions

As I said, usually it's not worth wasting it on the turret. Regardless, you wanted a way to stop it without taking damage; I gave you one (actually, I gave you two). Beggars can't be choosers.

Beemann, on November 15 2012 - 10:13 PM, said:

So that's one to Conquistador's one

What, you want another_ Okay. Hitting somebody over a vertical wall. You can chuck an HE over a wall, assuming that it has a top you can see. Turret can't do that.

Beemann, on November 15 2012 - 10:13 PM, said:

Now you're just strawmanning
There's a difference between trying to nerf good players, and recognizing that proper usage of something is overly powerful. Placing a turret in any decent position gives too much of an advantage for the amount of effort required to use it (read: basically none)
Especially when you compare it to the effort required and output gained with an HE grenade

The problem is the HE Grenade does its damage instantly, immediately, and in a lump sum. The HE turret takes over two seconds (if we assume the rate of 14 x 6 is correct) to do the same, and generally for it to do that much to have to be within like 10-20 meters of it. Anything past that, accuracy drops off sharply, and really past 40 or so it'll almost never hit you.

It is indeed "Set it and forget it" but as I said before, a player who knows what he's doing, if that turret is out somewhere where he can shoot it from, it's toast. If it's hidden behind a choke point, he's going to shoot it from some kind of cover if he can, or if not, he's going to try to splash it to death or else simply drop a shield or an EMP and end it.

The simple fact of the matter is that it's designed to be a deterrent, and if it doesn't do any consequential damage, it fails at being that. If you took only 100 damage from this thing in 3 seconds, you'd shrug it off unless you were an A-Class perhaps, and even in that case you can drop into healing and be back up to speed after five seconds or so.

Beemann, on November 15 2012 - 10:13 PM, said:

I'm actually really surprised and disappointed by this, because you've entirely missed the point, and I really didn't expect that
It doesn't take all that much skill to use the turret, it just takes basic map knowledge
It doesn't take a pro player to get proper usage out of a turret, it just takes someone who knows one of the "turret spots"
You don't balance around the middle because then high skilled players break your game
If you want an example of this, go play Firefall (if you need a beta key, I can send you one)
Recons DOMINATE high-end play, because they're balanced around people who are average (and thus not very effective) at recon
Same goes for the Dreadnaught. That class has one of the lowest skill floors and highest outputs in the game because it's balanced around a playerbase that isn't that great at shooting and positioning

You're missing my point, though: People who play also know the "turret spots." Therefore, they'll go in betting on if a turret will be there, and to that effect, might even check the area with a splash damage weapon for their hit indicator to go off.

The better players are always going to be better, period - they have more skill, better tactics, and so on. But if you balance the weapons so it's "even" in their hands, that means for all but the top 10% or so, the things are effectively useless. Saunders had a post regarding optimizations that described the need to balance them: If you make the stat boosts too big, it makes higher-level mechs more powerful, but if you moderate the stat boosts at the high level, it makes the stat boosts ultimately too small to be worthwhile.

That's basically the point to avoid here: If you make it so only "the best of the best" can get maximum use out of the things, most players won't even blink when they see one because they'll nuke it before it does anything really. However, if they make it stronger, it runs the risk to the point that it is now of some people crying it's too strong.

Personally, I feel it's about where it needs to be. It's potent, but not too potent; you can take it out with relative ease, though you might get a few scratches along the way. However, it's neither too hard to take down, nor is it impossible to shoot with any measure of safety (unless you have to close in, which is a totally different story) so realistically, it's probably pretty balanced, if it's to the point where most people are fine with it as-is, since there will always be a certain amount of players who will speak out against any given rule/item/weapon/etc. they don't like.

Beemann, on November 15 2012 - 10:13 PM, said:

Want a good example of a game with good balance based around high end play_ Quake works for that, as does Starcraft

Won't comment on Starcraft, but Quake_ You're joking.

• Q1: Rocket Launcher and Lightning Gun.
  
• Q2: Hyperblaster, SSG, Rocket Launcher, Grenade Launcher, Railgun.
  
• Q3: Railgun and Rocket Launcher. And lots of timing the Megahealth and Red Armor.

The FPS with the best weapon balance to date was actually probably Doom, where even the Pistol would work in a pinch. I can't say that about any Quake game.

Beemann, on November 15 2012 - 10:13 PM, said:

Permanence holds other advantages. If you predict poorly and toss a nade where you think an opponent will be, and they don't show_
BAM wasted item, potential damage lowered by 185

That's the risk you take with that tactic. How confident are you that it's there_ If you're not confident, you shouldn't be tossing your HE Grenade, but then you either have to risk finding out more directly or coming up with a new plan.

There should be no risk-free way to find out if there's a turret or not, though eventually with knowing the usual spots and your own gut, you can get a surprising degree of accuracy.

Beemann, on November 15 2012 - 10:13 PM, said:

Do the same thing with a turret_ S'all good, just wait for the next guy

Yes, if the enemy doesn't communicate, it keeps them blind and ignorant and it'll trap a few people. Me_ If I did somehow die to the thing (rather unlikely), I'm telling them a guy is on S3 with a turret hidden on the one edge. 2-3 people come and convince him to leave, either by choice or by force.

Teamwork: Muscling campers off the silos, one explosion at a time.

That doesn't mean the turret is "imbalanced." After all, in wars, you never see a commander go "Well, we only got 5000 men, so you send only 5000 of your force!" The other side laughs and crushes them with numerical superiority. It just means you're giving them overwhelming force in kind - since, after all, the turret can only hit one person at once, and if they insist on camping up one point with a farm to make that more difficult, then a smart team will simply focus on the other two points and force them to come to them - which will also remove their turrets as they die.

That said, again, I expect that any player who has played for more than a handful of hours will be able to take the turret back down with his next life, and if the enemy pilot is still there, give him a good fight for his life too.

Beemann, on November 15 2012 - 10:13 PM, said:

And again, in that "couple seconds" you have HE grenade damage, and the chance to flank and destroy
A couple seconds of fire from a turret+a conscious player with even mediocre aim = mediocre player wins
Your only choice is to back off, or hope that said player is absolutely terrible

No, it's not that simple. Again, the turret is not a win button. If the player is that mediocre, I can count on drawing him out away from his little automechanical friend and kicking his butt on friendlier ground. Even if not, he's a mediocre player - he might hit me once, perhaps twice before I destroy his toy, but then I whirl around and give him lots of pumping hot lead as soon as I have.

Really, I've fought dudes who set up turrets before and won, easily. It could be because of my high skill, but reasonably, I don't think it takes high skills to be able to pull the feat off reliably. You're at a slight armor disadvantage if it does chew you up a bit, but hey, you're in an armor disadvantage for a lot of fights. If you want to be 100% all the time, it ain't going to happen, which is why the smart play is to make use of healing every bit of downtime you get.

Beemann, on November 15 2012 - 10:13 PM, said:

Nobody's saying they shouldn't be viable. What we're saying is that they were viable ALREADY and now they're just too powerful in comparison to the other slot items

I disagree to them having been "already" viable. A weaker turret, if anything, makes those weapons more overpowered. Even if you take the "it takes skill to throw a grenade" argument into effect, the simple fact is that, if your aim is good, you can shave off something like 75% of an A-Class' health in two seconds... and that assumes you're not firing your own weapons at it. Yes, you can only get away with it once, but the turret isn't going to last for a long time against anyone but the ignorant or the green.

Good players routinely stomp turrets and make sure they're not a threat. I honestly can't think of a single situation in my nearly 40 hours of Hawken play over these tests, starting with A2, that ever had a team lock down a place so completely. The closest one I can remember is when a team set up a three-turret farm in the AA on a Siege match in Sahara, and we routed them by taking out their turrets and the guys who were waiting with them, which we did by ignoring the guys (at first) and focusing on their turrets, then once we had their turrets down, we opened up on them.

They lost 3 turrets and 3 defenders, being wiped out. I think we lost two attackers, which still left two to begin to pull the point back in our favor. By the time they could get back, our respawns had arrived, and it was a very brutal four-man defense that stopped anything they tried.

Edited by DarkPulse, November 16 2012 - 06:55 AM.

[Conquistador]

Beemann, on November 15 2012 - 10:13 PM, said:

DarkPulse, on November 15 2012 - 08:56 PM, said:

Hit someone who is hiding behind cover. Next_

So that's one to Conquistador's one

DarkPulse, on November 16 2012 - 06:44 AM, said:

What, you want another_ Okay. Hitting somebody over a vertical wall. You can chuck an HE over a wall, assuming that it has a top you can see. Turret can't do that.

Correct me for being dense, but aren't these two related_ I could interpret your statement several ways. If you mean hitting someone by lobbing a grenade over a vertical wall, they're technically hiding behind cover, which you've already suggested before. And if you mean someone standing on top of a vertical wall that you have no line of sight for, that's exactly as if they were in cover, which is again something you've covered by the first statement.

If you mean hitting a person standing on top of a vertical wall and exposed, last I checked the MG turret has enough gun depression to also fire upwards. Which means it will track enemies standing above it so long as it has line-of-sight.

I'm not really seeing something you haven't mentioned before or something the HE grenade can do the MG turret can't. Cover is a fairly broad blanket term, and vertical cover (high walls) is still cover.

Edited by Conquistador, November 16 2012 - 07:34 AM.

[TheChaffeemancer]

The HE has pretty much one use, that's hitting people with an explody thing. They can't act as early warning devices, bullet sponges, shields, distractions, or as a stand in for an aimbotting mech. Turrets can keep doing three of these things indefinitely. H.E., explode once and done.

[D20Face]

TheChaffeemancer, on November 16 2012 - 09:40 AM, said:

Turrets can keep doing three of these things indefinitely.

Please explain to me how a turret with a tiny hitbox and little health acts as a valid bullet sponge and shield.

And again, the HE is explode TWICE and you're done. Two times, not one.

[TheChaffeemancer]

D20Face, on November 16 2012 - 10:02 AM, said:

TheChaffeemancer, on November 16 2012 - 09:40 AM, said:

Turrets can keep doing three of these things indefinitely.

Please explain to me how a turret with a tiny hitbox and little health acts as a valid bullet sponge and shield.

And again, the HE is explode TWICE and you're done. Two times, not one.

Early warning, Distraction, and aimbotting mech. The two you picked out were the two it could not do indefinitely.

Ok, fine you get two uses of the H.E. It's still a two use thing that requires aiming, as opposed to just going "There's a place to fuzzy bunny out a turret." And a not bad spot will last for quite a while.

Edited by TheChaffeemancer, November 16 2012 - 10:08 AM.