125 replies to this topic

[Beemann]

Dread_Lord_Pitr, on November 27 2012 - 05:08 PM, said:

Uhm, every map has ample opportunity for ranged combat, even with the new changes.
Look at Bazaar; lots of places to go stationary with an SS (not that that helps, but still), ample opportunity for ranged combat, i mean, with the Rocketeer i can get many ranged kills on it, sometimes even on par with distances i used to use the SS on...
Only problem being that if i actually use the SS the actual landing point of the shot is so bleeding far off the reticule that i can't even snipe a stationary turret without building my heat up to red levels...
And that's at a decent range where the turret can't hit me, and with me standing still.

Prosk too, many elevated positions that would be ideal for long range shots; but again, ruined by the alterations to SS.
I'd rather sit my Rocketeer down in spots where i'd sit and snipe, and just spam Hellfire and Seeker all match long.
It's boring, but at least i can make some kills.

Prosk has the advantage on Bazaar, due to the fact that you honestly can't have the same amount of SS support playing Sent. and you can block off any frontal attack via chokepoints. So Bazaar would be a good example if everyone played with Prosk's side of the map
Titan is even worse

Dread_Lord_Pitr, on November 27 2012 - 05:08 PM, said:

As for objective based games, i prefer not to play glorified CTF/CTP variants.
I'll stick with TDM, and if there's no one playing TDM, just plain old DM.
If everyone plays Siege and Missile, well then i take the night off Hawken to play TDM in UT3, ET, ET:QW or some other FPS.

So balance should be based around something that isn't going to be the primary competitive game-mode_

Dread_Lord_Pitr, on November 27 2012 - 05:08 PM, said:

Not if they boost out of sight every few seconds, which with the new map layouts is....
Well, rather inevitable.

How do they boost out of sight if there's so many good places to fight at long range_

Dread_Lord_Pitr, on November 27 2012 - 05:08 PM, said:

And i'm not going to go into a discussion about leading targets in a game that isn't Hawken, especially since you already state that the comparison basically is non-existant.

Actually I was saying that the firerate wasn't an issue because you have to deal with relative speed, not the speed of one factor of the game. I'm sorry that you misunderstood

[Dread_Lord_Pitr]

Beemann, on November 27 2012 - 06:24 PM, said:

Prosk has the advantage on Bazaar, due to the fact that you honestly can't have the same amount of SS support playing Sent. and you can block off any frontal attack via chokepoints. So Bazaar would be a good example if everyone played with Prosk's side of the map
Titan is even worse

Spawn points change during DM and TDM, so sides don't matter.
Can't speak for Siege or Missile, because, again, i don't play those modes.
If i want to play CTF i'd rather play TF2 than this game.

Beemann, on November 27 2012 - 06:24 PM, said:

So balance should be based around something that isn't going to be the primary competitive game-mode_

Who says that TDM and DM won't be the most played game modes _
And if you mean E-sports with 'competitive' then you're talking to the wrong person.

Beemann, on November 27 2012 - 06:24 PM, said:

How do they boost out of sight if there's so many good places to fight at long range_

Are you being deliberately thick here _
Just because there are ample places to fight long range, doesn't mean there aren't also plenty of spots to hide from long range fire.
It's not as if the two are mutually exclusive in ANY decent FPS that has spots that can be used for long range combat.

Beemann, on November 27 2012 - 06:24 PM, said:

Actually I was saying that the firerate wasn't an issue because you have to deal with relative speed, not the speed of one factor of the game. I'm sorry that you misunderstood

What you're saying now doesn't add up to what you said in your previous post.
It had and has no real bearing on the current discussion, because all your example shows is how a lead a target and needing to compensate for range in that particular game.
Tell me how it relates to how the EXACT ballistics now work in Hawken _
Yes, we need to lead targets and compensate now, but if you honestly think i still need to have that explained to me at this point in the conversation, then i might as well stop here.

Beyond that i see no reason to drag another game into this as an example, especially if that game's ballistics (and gameplay) are so utterly different...
So again, i don't see the point.
And i don't read what you just said out of that short post and that equally short video at all.

Edited by Dread_Lord_Pitr, November 27 2012 - 08:40 PM.

[Beemann]

So to be clear here, you're complaining because you play a gamemode that isn't ever meant to be the flagship competitive gamemode and the game ISN'T ACTUALLY BALANCED AROUND THAT GAMEMODE
It doesn't matter if they're the most played, your most competitive gamemode played at the highest level is what you balance for, not deathmatch

And if people can always find ample cover from long range fighters, it means that the maps are not helping out those long range fighters. If there's no risk on the part of the short-range attacker, then the map needs to get looked at

As for the GA thing, at what point was it ever said that it worked in a completely different manner_ The fire-rate of the two recon rifles is higher than that of the Sabot, but so is EVERYTHING ELSE, meaning if we work on rough relative terms, it's still a slow-firing high burst weapon
And it manages to work in an environment with a fairly similar level of mobility while firing projectiles much slower than what I would advise for Hawken

It is simply an example of properly implemented projectile sniping at work. Proof, ultimately, that you CAN actually have a straight-moving projectile sniper without the world ending or the speedy short range players winning

Edited by Beemann, November 27 2012 - 08:55 PM.

[Dread_Lord_Pitr]

Beemann, on November 27 2012 - 08:54 PM, said:

So to be clear here, you're complaining because you play a gamemode that isn't ever meant to be the flagship competitive gamemode and the game ISN'T ACTUALLY BALANCED AROUND THAT GAMEMODE
It doesn't matter if they're the most played, your most competitive gamemode played at the highest level is what you balance for, not deathmatch

I believe that the game needs to find a balance that works for all modes, not just TDM OR Siege.
Hell, i believe that this game sorely needs some other game types other than CTF and (T)DM derivates.
I also believe that the current SS model just doesn't cut it in either existing game mode, and considering the amount of negative commentary about the SS class FUBAR both in game and on the forums, both from TDM players and folks who play either all game modes or play a lot of Siege and Missile, i'd say something needs to be done.

Also, currently, i don't see Hawken going E-sports, as much as some of you guys might want it, there are still too many issues as is, and i don't think all of them can be adressed in the short time to Open Beta.
Maybe once Hawken goes RC and there has been a lot more data taken in, and adjustments made to enable proper competitive play, it might be viable.
Or maybe even some time during open beta, when things have been ironed out, but as it stands _
I don't think it would be taken very serious.


Now, let me explain one thing about my stance on the SS: i didn't mind the weapons having less damage, needing to fire off more shots, having to take cover, but i do mind inaccurate weapons that miss even if i am standing still, with the reticule over a stationary target, and then still missing like there's some kind of unseen weapon sway.
If i get the chance i'll see about getting a friendly match going some time to illustrate this one point; i've managed to entirely miss a gun turret several times, while the zoomed in reticule was directly over it.
Didn't matter what rifle i use, or if i use Sabot; kept missing like the Mech was swaying up, down, left and right.
It'd make sense if the screen/reticule actually moved like that, but since it doesn't...

Beemann, on November 27 2012 - 08:54 PM, said:

And if people can always find ample cover from long range fighters, it means that the maps are not helping out those long range fighters. If there's no risk on the part of the short-range attacker, then the map needs to get looked at

On one hand i agree, on the other, i don't, considering i play more than just SS class.
Again, a (precarious) balance would be the ideal here; where an SS has ample chance to hit something at mid to long range, but where there are also places to hide from said sniper fire, should the need arise.
There is the option to have maps that cater more to long range, and some that are more CQC, but then you run into problems with everyone going SS, or Assault, or whichever class excells at that map.

Beemann, on November 27 2012 - 08:54 PM, said:

As for the GA thing, at what point was it ever said that it worked in a completely different manner_ The fire-rate of the two recon rifles is higher than that of the Sabot, but so is EVERYTHING ELSE, meaning if we work on rough relative terms, it's still a slow-firing high burst weapon
And it manages to work in an environment with a fairly similar level of mobility while firing projectiles much slower than what I would advise for Hawken

It is simply an example of properly implemented projectile sniping at work. Proof, ultimately, that you CAN actually have a straight-moving projectile sniper without the world ending or the speedy short range players winning

Now your argument is making sense...
I might just be a bit slow tonight, sorry 'bout that

I know leading a target can work in a (relatively) fast paced shooter, BFBC2 was an example where (at least, before the game got nerfed to bits thanks to the inane fanboy whiners that populate(d) that game) one HAD to lead targets and adjust for what seemed to be wind and bullet drop.
And yes, in Global Agenda, it looks works (and it used to in BFBC2, but at some point the hitboxes seemed about as accurate as shooting at a midget, so i gave up on it).
Global Agenda, however, does not seem to have any character classes that can dodge anywhere near as fast as some of the A class Mechs in Hawken.

And i feel the example you used is a bit flawed, since, as you stated, the guy is going in a relatively straight line; leading him like that isn't all that hard, and indeed, it works.
With Hawken the way it is, with maps that not only have many obstacles, but multiple height levels and folks jumping up and down at break neck speeds, dodging around like the place was on fire, making a Sniper-type weapon use a projectile base (and making it as inaccurate as it is right now) just does not make sense.

I'd also like to note that if i seem a bit harsh or snarky... well, i'm bad at getting points across without looking like some fuzzy bunny, i don't mean to sound half as bad, but somehow i always do seem to come across as an ass..
Sorry

Edited by Dread_Lord_Pitr, November 27 2012 - 09:32 PM.

[Beemann]

You're not going to reach optimal game balance trying to make everyone happy. Tribes has always had multiple gamemodes (rabbit, CTF, arena etc. etc. etc.) but the game focuses on CTF balance, because it's their flagship (no pun intended) gamemode
In Quake, you can play a multitude of gamemodes, but not all of them are balanced or fun to play on every level (Rocket Arena is a terrible comp gamemode, but works fine for pub matches)

I don't actually think any of the current gamemodes would work well for competitive play in Hawken at the moment. I absolutely agree that it wouldn't be an ESport as-is. However I also think that the unique style of play and the potential for multiple layers of skill are absolutely assets that can be leveraged towards getting Hawken into a competitive circuit.

As for Global Agenda, I can go and dig up more jetpack-heavy fights if you'd like. I just wanted to display the level of leading required. Bionics-heavy recons can actually move quite fast, for the record, and the jetpacks allow a fair amount of air control and unpredictability. Vertical play, particularly after the Sandstorm update, is much more pronounced than it is in Hawken, and there is a similar amount of cover on many of the maps (at least, where the objectives are concerned)

Oh and I agree that a sharpshooter standing still shouldn't be subjected to RNG. When moving without scoping_ Sure, I guess. I would kinda prefer a lower damage higher accuracy alternative mechanic for those situations, but that's just me
Travel time, however, doesn't seem particularly problematic to me, especially since it makes the weapon seem less alien when compared to the other explodey-projectile secondaries

[ReachH]

Ssuusshhii, on November 26 2012 - 03:02 PM, said:

ReachH, on November 25 2012 - 04:43 AM, said:

Wipe those gentle tears from thine eyes, o gentle noob - for the Sharpshooter is still the only class who does guaranteed burst damage while kiting behind cover.

The only.

Class.

Only.

Infiltrator, Scout, and Berserker.  All their secondaries can be manually detonated, so even if you sidestep back into cover, they'll just blow it up behind you.  Assault can probably do the same thing even with less mobility, but I haven't played it so I wouldn't know for certain.

Guaranteed_

Also I was envisioning more medium range. If you're caught in a corner battle with an infiltrator, scout, or beserker, you'd better hope you have your items and damage buff off cooldown.

*edit* also having a moment to think about this, the splash is too small relative to how much the mechs are moving around cover/how long it takes the projectile to reach detonation point - whereas the SS damage is instant. So its not as one sided as you would think.

I also have a fairly good idea of it because I play assault, infiltrator and SS.

Edited by ReachH, November 28 2012 - 02:41 AM.