125 replies to this topic

[RedVan]

ReachH, on November 25 2012 - 04:43 AM, said:

SamSlade, on November 25 2012 - 03:21 AM, said:

ReachH, on November 24 2012 - 04:15 PM, said:

I still get 20/2 k/d...  like a boss.  you might win with a little help

This is definitely a L2p issue. Go figure.

Edited to say what you mean... a.k.a.: I have leet skillz and love farming new players... go figure.

Back in the world of reality, the SS is still overnerfed.

Wipe those gentle tears from thine eyes, o gentle noob - for the Sharpshooter is still the only class who does guaranteed burst damage while kiting behind cover.

The only.

Class.

Only.

Now if our fellow SS players were to say 'hey you know what_ I'm really worried that the SS is no longer competitive against the best players - here is why...', that would be an entirely different thing. Instead we have TurboWhining from players who feel that - for the sole reason - that their mech cannot mindlessly slap around every other class, that must have been wronged. "ZOMGGG SLUG RIFLE TWEAK, BAWWWWWW" is the sound that rises up from these zealous individuals.

I would appreciate it if you did not alter my words, because you kind sir, are rather transparently wrong.

Now before you get your panties up in a bunch, puff up your face, and proclaim 'how dare this anonymous online bastard dare question my opinion in such daring fashion_!', I would ask that you remain focused on the only thing you should take away from this:

"the Sharpshooter is still the only class who does guaranteed burst damage while kiting behind cover"

Now you have my blessing to post your short quip feigning how little you are angered, and thus, care - because you are cool like that.

Rockets can be dodged, continuous damage weapons can be hidden from, a slug-sabot volley is not liable to either. So now the SS still does what it did best, but is not easily abusable. Because lets face it, there were soooo many SS in CB1, and it was far too easy to dominate - for anyone.

It has never been easily abusable throughout any CBE.  Not even in CBE1.  Assault and other mechs were always able to destroy SS through all CBEs.  I played primarily as SS through CBE1 and 2, and I was commonly the only SS in a match.  And if there was another, they didn't have a +KD as I did.  Perhaps you're referring to the alpha SS_

You seem to be forgetting the fact that other mechs can dodge behind cover just as easily as the SS.  Due to the nature of the SS being longer range, that means once you get hit by a SS, you can run and heal far easier than a SS can run and heal when fighting close range vs other mechs.  Yes, there are many stupid players that will try to dash straight towards a SS to attack them.  That is the quantity of SS kills.

You also seem to forget that, while close range, it's far easier for a SS to miss than a "continuous damage" mech to miss.  Due to the necessity to zoom for accuracy of the sabot, other mechs can dodge right out of the zoomed screen, leaving the SS disoriented as to where the enemy is.  All the while, the "continuous damage" mech is still firing away ho hum!  And sure, the SS has the slug which doesn't require zoom, but you cannot rely solely on the slug when close range or you will lose every time.  You really need to be on top of your game to play SS close range.

Another thing you have apparently forgotten is how easy it is to close range on other mechs.  There is plenty of cover to dodge to and from to close the range between you and a SS playing long range.  People not doing this properly does not mean the SS is OP, it just means people are stupid.

While it is true the SS is the only mech that does guaranteed burst damage while kiting behind cover, it's far easier for other mechs to counter that than it is for a SS actually use that guaranteed burst damage.

I've taken out countless SS using other mechs throughout all CBE.  It's incredibly easy.

If you were to take equally skilled players, one in a SS, and one in an inf, assault, scout, etc...  the SS will lose the majority of the time due to how much easier it is to play those other mechs.  So yes, it is a L2P issue.  We're talking about PUBs here, people don't know how to play in PUBs.  A good player will go 20/2 kd no matter what the mech in a PUB.

[Sparkard]

@Akrium:
You've seen some people play very well now because they undid most of the nerf, not because it was ok after the nerf.

[JustJake]

I still think the Sharpshooter is OP and needs more nerf. You should only be able to shoot with the Sharpshooter if there are no enemies within 10 meters. And the Sharpshooter should only be able to dodge once per life.

[ReachH]

RedVan, on November 25 2012 - 02:55 PM, said:

It has never been easily abusable throughout any CBE.  Not even in CBE1.  Assault and other mechs were always able to destroy SS through all CBEs.  I played primarily as SS through CBE1 and 2, and I was commonly the only SS in a match.  And if there was another, they didn't have a +KD as I did.  Perhaps you're referring to the alpha SS_

You seem to be forgetting the fact that other mechs can dodge behind cover just as easily as the SS.  Due to the nature of the SS being longer range, that means once you get hit by a SS, you can run and heal far easier than a SS can run and heal when fighting close range vs other mechs.  Yes, there are many stupid players that will try to dash straight towards a SS to attack them.  That is the quantity of SS kills.

You also seem to forget that, while close range, it's far easier for a SS to miss than a "continuous damage" mech to miss.  Due to the necessity to zoom for accuracy of the sabot, other mechs can dodge right out of the zoomed screen, leaving the SS disoriented as to where the enemy is.  All the while, the "continuous damage" mech is still firing away ho hum!  And sure, the SS has the slug which doesn't require zoom, but you cannot rely solely on the slug when close range or you will lose every time.  You really need to be on top of your game to play SS close range.

Another thing you have apparently forgotten is how easy it is to close range on other mechs.  There is plenty of cover to dodge to and from to close the range between you and a SS playing long range.  People not doing this properly does not mean the SS is OP, it just means people are stupid.

While it is true the SS is the only mech that does guaranteed burst damage while kiting behind cover, it's far easier for other mechs to counter that than it is for a SS actually use that guaranteed burst damage.

I've taken out countless SS using other mechs throughout all CBE.  It's incredibly easy.

If you were to take equally skilled players, one in a SS, and one in an inf, assault, scout, etc...  the SS will lose the majority of the time due to how much easier it is to play those other mechs.  So yes, it is a L2P issue.  We're talking about PUBs here, people don't know how to play in PUBs.  A good player will go 20/2 kd no matter what the mech in a PUB.

No I was talking about CB. you could literally 1v1 anything as long as you landed all your hits and kept moving.

I literally go 6/6 with Infiltrator. I just don't fvcking understand that thing. I don't go posting on forums how Infiltrator is UP though. It is a l2p issue, and other players have made the infiltrator work to crazy levels.

I feel like it is really easy to hit all your shots with SS if you focus and anticipate the dodge. Slug can be fired w/o zoom, but even at close range, I do a quick zoom to make sure the sabot hits, because its dps is essential to surviving a 1v1 encounter (along with detonator/HE gren, heal, and damage buff if any are available). It was easy then, and now with items and buff it is only manageable some of the time. So while I would go into a 1v1 confident in CB1, and only loose sometimes to a infiltrator - I now have to be verrrry verrrry selective, and I usually run and gun.  

Even dodging A-class mechs are slow and gigantic targets compared to landing a flick rail on a strafe jumping dot from across the map in QuakeLive. The hardest thing to deal with is all the smoke and fire and shizz, and your damn allies stepping in front of you, or worse, blowing up in front of you. The targeting highlight helps, but you have to train yourself to fire at the red silhouette.

Anyway, here is how the SS stacks against skilled players, piloting class A/B mechs in a 4v4 scenario. The closest, most difficult game I had a screenshot of, we had a nub assault, but it was even. The game strained me, and I feel like I could have done a lot better. Even though, you can see that the class is far from "ZEEERRRMEHGAWD ITS UNPLAYABLE WHAT THE FVCK".


100 ping cuz had to use world matchmaking (EU/UK empty at the time ).

[Frenotx]

I'd be ok with the damage reductions (well, less perturbed by) if they left the accuracy alone. Weapons like that need to hit reliably. Large damage + long cool down + poor accuracy basically leaves each encounter up to a rng.

[Sparkard]

Be happy, i get >400 ping with world matcmaking >.< and SS is more than unplayable with such pings.

", but even at close range, I do a quick zoom to make sure the sabot hits,"
That's a bad thing imho. (in terms of game mechanics)

[ReachH]

Sparkard, on November 26 2012 - 12:43 PM, said:

Be happy, i get >400 ping with world matcmaking >.< and SS is more than unplayable with such pings.

", but even at close range, I do a quick zoom to make sure the sabot hits,"
That's a bad thing imho. (in terms of game mechanics)

You do what you have to do to win

[Interrobang]

ReachH, you shouldn't have to be a pro to be able to enjoy the class. I also usually get 1st place with SS, but it's now much harder to keep the lead against any competent players. Now it's way easier for me to just play Rocketeer or Scout and get first place without even trying. I can see a similar scenario playing out at a competitive level, where the SS would probably not stand a chance in DM.

[Ssuusshhii]

ReachH, on November 25 2012 - 04:43 AM, said:

Wipe those gentle tears from thine eyes, o gentle noob - for the Sharpshooter is still the only class who does guaranteed burst damage while kiting behind cover.

The only.

Class.

Only.

Infiltrator, Scout, and Berserker.  All their secondaries can be manually detonated, so even if you sidestep back into cover, they'll just blow it up behind you.  Assault can probably do the same thing even with less mobility, but I haven't played it so I wouldn't know for certain.

[RedVan]

ReachH, on November 26 2012 - 11:23 AM, said:

RedVan, on November 25 2012 - 02:55 PM, said:

It has never been easily abusable throughout any CBE.  Not even in CBE1.  Assault and other mechs were always able to destroy SS through all CBEs.  I played primarily as SS through CBE1 and 2, and I was commonly the only SS in a match.  And if there was another, they didn't have a +KD as I did.  Perhaps you're referring to the alpha SS_

You seem to be forgetting the fact that other mechs can dodge behind cover just as easily as the SS.  Due to the nature of the SS being longer range, that means once you get hit by a SS, you can run and heal far easier than a SS can run and heal when fighting close range vs other mechs.  Yes, there are many stupid players that will try to dash straight towards a SS to attack them.  That is the quantity of SS kills.

You also seem to forget that, while close range, it's far easier for a SS to miss than a "continuous damage" mech to miss.  Due to the necessity to zoom for accuracy of the sabot, other mechs can dodge right out of the zoomed screen, leaving the SS disoriented as to where the enemy is.  All the while, the "continuous damage" mech is still firing away ho hum!  And sure, the SS has the slug which doesn't require zoom, but you cannot rely solely on the slug when close range or you will lose every time.  You really need to be on top of your game to play SS close range.

Another thing you have apparently forgotten is how easy it is to close range on other mechs.  There is plenty of cover to dodge to and from to close the range between you and a SS playing long range.  People not doing this properly does not mean the SS is OP, it just means people are stupid.

While it is true the SS is the only mech that does guaranteed burst damage while kiting behind cover, it's far easier for other mechs to counter that than it is for a SS actually use that guaranteed burst damage.

I've taken out countless SS using other mechs throughout all CBE.  It's incredibly easy.

If you were to take equally skilled players, one in a SS, and one in an inf, assault, scout, etc...  the SS will lose the majority of the time due to how much easier it is to play those other mechs.  So yes, it is a L2P issue.  We're talking about PUBs here, people don't know how to play in PUBs.  A good player will go 20/2 kd no matter what the mech in a PUB.

No I was talking about CB. you could literally 1v1 anything as long as you landed all your hits and kept moving.

I literally go 6/6 with Infiltrator. I just don't fvcking understand that thing. I don't go posting on forums how Infiltrator is UP though. It is a l2p issue, and other players have made the infiltrator work to crazy levels.

I feel like it is really easy to hit all your shots with SS if you focus and anticipate the dodge. Slug can be fired w/o zoom, but even at close range, I do a quick zoom to make sure the sabot hits, because its dps is essential to surviving a 1v1 encounter (along with detonator/HE gren, heal, and damage buff if any are available). It was easy then, and now with items and buff it is only manageable some of the time. So while I would go into a 1v1 confident in CB1, and only loose sometimes to a infiltrator - I now have to be verrrry verrrry selective, and I usually run and gun.  

Even dodging A-class mechs are slow and gigantic targets compared to landing a flick rail on a strafe jumping dot from across the map in QuakeLive. The hardest thing to deal with is all the smoke and fire and shizz, and your damn allies stepping in front of you, or worse, blowing up in front of you. The targeting highlight helps, but you have to train yourself to fire at the red silhouette.

Anyway, here is how the SS stacks against skilled players, piloting class A/B mechs in a 4v4 scenario. The closest, most difficult game I had a screenshot of, we had a nub assault, but it was even. The game strained me, and I feel like I could have done a lot better. Even though, you can see that the class is far from "ZEEERRRMEHGAWD ITS UNPLAYABLE WHAT THE FVCK".


100 ping cuz had to use world matchmaking (EU/UK empty at the time ).

I agree that the SS is easy when you hit 100% of your shots.  However, you won't hit 100% of your shots vs a good opponent.  Guarantee it.

And yes, there are some l2p issues, but that doesn't mean that other mechs are far easier to l2p than SS.  Take scout for example.

Sparkard, on November 26 2012 - 12:43 PM, said:

Be happy, i get >400 ping with world matcmaking >.< and SS is more than unplayable with such pings.

", but even at close range, I do a quick zoom to make sure the sabot hits,"
That's a bad thing imho. (in terms of game mechanics)

Quick scoping is a good thing in terms of game mechanics imo.  It requires far quicker thinking and aiming than an assault rifle or splash weapon.

Edited by RedVan, November 26 2012 - 03:36 PM.

[The_Silencer]

I played the SharpShooter during Alpha/CB1&2 and I had a lot of fun. But this time I've gave a try to other chassis. So no fracking idea on how it is now. I thik the SS wasn't broken before. I really want to believe that you guys don't fuzzy bunny up one more mech with your (mostly) positive feedback.

[ShadowSkulkerer]

It's not the damage that gets to me so much anyway.   It's more the way it seriously hiccups.   It's-a-sniper!   And now it fires way of the reticule most of the time.    I really can't be alone in feeling this right_   Just to check do people back me up on it's lack of accuracy_  

   I read a post I believe though by a mod that actually said to expect it to feel more like CB2 somewhere between now and launch.

[Sparkard]

Quote

Quick scoping is a good thing in terms of game mechanics imo.  It requires far quicker thinking and aiming than an assault rifle or splash weapon.

Quickscoping is an exploit. I'd to see more opinions on that, because if people like it, then i'll have to make a "let's make a sniper mech" suggestion as sharpshooter is a quickscoper and not a sniper atm.

[Dark_Horse]

It seems like SS is that class that is certainly capable of being dominant, but is just much harder to play. I've run into this problem in other online games (MMOs especially) before.

Why would I play as SS and try really really hard to win when I could play Infiltrator and completely dominate with half the effort_

And SS is still completely helpless in Deathmatch. I mean, wow.

[Darkbolt]

some one kick this fuzzy bunny out of beta please or atleast clue him into the fact that he is actually playing hawken. Sniper needs more nerf___ you are a total un informed fuzzy bunny sorry for being mean but DAMN!! dude what planet are you on!!!!! slap slap!!</p>

Edited by Darkbolt, November 27 2012 - 02:23 PM.

[DarkPulse]

I really don't like the fact that they made the guns into actual projectiles, as opposed to hitscan. Snipers in nearly every game are hitscan, unless they're trying to factor in things like bullet drop and the like.

Realistically, considering the movement speed decrease, the camera shake increase, and the damage nerf (which used to be a lot worse), I think I could more or less accept it if they made the weapons hitscan again. There's basically far less difference between a charged HEAT shot and the Sabot now except for cooldown and the Sabot doing ~40 more damage. Having to lead any non-stationary target is just ridiculous, when I have weapons presumably designed for high muzzle velocity.

[Beemann]

DarkPulse, on November 27 2012 - 02:31 PM, said:

I really don't like the fact that they made the guns into actual projectiles, as opposed to hitscan. Snipers in nearly every game are hitscan, unless they're trying to factor in things like bullet drop and the like.

I actually found that to be one of the least problematic changes
Also, GA sniping was done with slow projectiles, Tribes sniping was done with fast projectiles and delayed hitscan, and Firefall actually uses projectiles for damned near everything (and the Recon is especially OP in that game once you move up to the competitive level)
Firefall technically had bullet drop, but you weren't really going to have to factor it in in PvP due to the size of the maps
GA had no drop, just travel time and the same goes for Tribes
Honestly if you've already got the range advantage, leading a teensy bit shouldn't be an issue
And just because someone else did it a certain way, doesn't mean Hawken has to
See: All of the threads that suggest melee weapons and mechwarrior-style customization because "every game in mech subgenre x" did it

[Dread_Lord_Pitr]

Beemann, on November 27 2012 - 02:37 PM, said:

Honestly if you've already got the range advantage, leading a teensy bit shouldn't be an issue

Two words and a letter for you : Class A Mech.

Try leading a Berserker who's boosting and dodging all over the place.
It was hard to hit them even when the weapons were hitscan.
It is now basically impossible.
B Class Mechs _
Yeah right, not if they're boosting all over (which is standard practice while in combat, so).
The whole way aiming works now also ensures that as an SS i CANNOT defend myself in an up close engagement, against even a lvl 0 Assault class with an unexperienced pilot i'll get my Fuzzy Buns handed to me (pun intended) because just about every shot will miss.
And Damage Amp obviously can't compensate for not being able to hit the broad side of a barn even when stationary, so....

Edited by Dread_Lord_Pitr, November 27 2012 - 02:59 PM.

[Beemann]

Map design currently favours short range combat, particularly if you like objective based games
That's a problem outside of the sharpshooters and A class mechs, and it's one that needs some attention
And if you actually have LOS for them when they aren't in a CQC-heavy area, then you can hit them after they boost
Honestly I would have been totally cool with keeping the A2-CB2 SS and just making the Sabot and Slug projectile weapons. It would have shifted a lot of the QQ elsewhere and with proper map design it wouldn't really do much to harm good sharpshooters

Edit: also, here's a video of leading done in GA. It's worth noting that while that weapon fires faster than any Hawken equivalent, so does pretty much every other gun in the game. As well, movement shown in the video is intentionally simple, to show the leading required at that distance

Edited by Beemann, November 27 2012 - 03:40 PM.

[Dread_Lord_Pitr]

Beemann, on November 27 2012 - 03:27 PM, said:

Map design currently favours short range combat, particularly if you like objective based games

Uhm, every map has ample opportunity for ranged combat, even with the new changes.
Look at Bazaar; lots of places to go stationary with an SS (not that that helps, but still), ample opportunity for ranged combat, i mean, with the Rocketeer i can get many ranged kills on it, sometimes even on par with distances i used to use the SS on...
Only problem being that if i actually use the SS the actual landing point of the shot is so bleeding far off the reticule that i can't even snipe a stationary turret without building my heat up to red levels...
And that's at a decent range where the turret can't hit me, and with me standing still.

Prosk too, many elevated positions that would be ideal for long range shots; but again, ruined by the alterations to SS.
I'd rather sit my Rocketeer down in spots where i'd sit and snipe, and just spam Hellfire and Seeker all match long.
It's boring, but at least i can make some kills.

As for objective based games, i prefer not to play glorified CTF/CTP variants.
I'll stick with TDM, and if there's no one playing TDM, just plain old DM.
If everyone plays Siege and Missile, well then i take the night off Hawken to play TDM in UT3, ET, ET:QW or some other FPS.

Beemann, on November 27 2012 - 03:27 PM, said:

And if you actually have LOS for them when they aren't in a CQC-heavy area, then you can hit them after they boost

Not if they boost out of sight every few seconds, which with the new map layouts is....
Well, rather inevitable.

And i'm not going to go into a discussion about leading targets in a game that isn't Hawken, especially since you already state that the comparison basically is non-existant.

Edited by Dread_Lord_Pitr, November 27 2012 - 05:12 PM.