117 replies to this topic

[KaszaWspraju]

Raxaphan, on November 21 2012 - 06:47 AM, said:

....
This game it's all about DM now, in every mode you play.
....

This.

I play TDM to day, It is NUKE TOWN OF HAWKEN. CB3 changes retarded this game too much.

[defekt]

Reducing the number of items you can carry will serve only to widen that usage-gap between the 'good' items and the 'not so good' items when it comes to public games, especially DM.  With three slots being available the less effective items still saw a good amount of use.  IMO, only for pre-made matches will the more situational items see any significant use; for pube games very few people will voluntarily take a 'weaker' set even if it actually means 'stronger' from a co-ordinated team standpoint.

Quote

Say i blow my load on the first guy i see, i know i wont be able to use them again until i die. The old system "punishes" you for staying alive. And when that load is 2x HE, 1 EMP and 2x Shields, it's starts becoming really temting to just immolate yourself to get your stuff back.

I see this from a different perspective: rather than it punishing the strong it gives the weak a fighting chance.

I'm not onboard with item regeneration and to be honest I fail to see the sensible driving logic behind this decision.  In CB2 finite item availability acted as a half-way-house counter-measure between the good and the not-so-good players; if you died a lot you at least had the helping hand of being given a fresh set of gear to break through that wall.  Now we see a nearly endless swath of turrets, HE & EMP (regenerating so fast that they're not that far off from being counted as a second, secondary weapon) and shields being laid down.  IMO adding item regeneration was a detrimental move.

I'm trying not to sound melodramatic but thus far, overall, CB3 feels like it has taken a not insignificant step away from being a game that rewards sound tactical play and that is disappointing -- too many games take this route these days -- particularly if these changes herald the start of a new direction in design philosophy.  Resources should require management, be them heat, map collectables, mech build choices or equipment items and good stewardship of these resources should represent the difference between a good team and a not-so-good one.  I'm really not getting that feeling from a number of these CB3 changes.

Edited by defekt, November 21 2012 - 09:57 AM.

[KaszaWspraju]

Good thoughts @defekt

[Ace4225]

defekt, on November 21 2012 - 09:48 AM, said:

...
pube games
...

LOL

[Ace4225]

ok, in seriousness, if you want a good argument for why item regen is a good idea, follow the links:

AsianJoyKiller, on November 20 2012 - 08:33 AM, said:

If you guys really want to take a look at how to make items more skilled, I'd take a gander at some of NotKjell's amazing posts on the topic.

Edited by Ace4225, November 21 2012 - 10:12 AM.

[defekt]

Ace4225, on November 21 2012 - 10:10 AM, said:

ok, in seriousness, if you want a good argument for why item regen is a good idea, follow the links:

AsianJoyKiller, on November 20 2012 - 08:33 AM, said:

If you guys really want to take a look at how to make items more skilled, I'd take a gander at some of NotKjell's amazing posts on the topic.

And a grand read it was too.  As far as I can see we're both after the same thing, just arguing inward from different directions; a classic debating flanking manoeuvre if you will.  Where (s)he advocates a reworking of the entire ability/item system (unlikely to happen) I'm only asking that we turn off item regen and go back to good old traditional resource management, as was the case in CB2 (slightly more likely to happen).

[DarkPulse]

I wonder if now that all items recharge, the old MG Turret argument of "But you get one that sticks around!" still flies.

That said, can't judge the MG Turret yet as only one of my classes has it (damn saving for HP for a mech). I do know it fires somewhat slower, which is okay, but I don't quite know the damage. I did find they're paper-thin now and a single TOW will take them out, so really they're barely going to last... but with them being re-placeable after some time, I guess I can accept that.

[AsianJoyKiller]

DarkPulse, on November 21 2012 - 10:27 AM, said:

I wonder if now that all items recharge, the old MG Turret argument of "But you get one that sticks around!" still flies.

That said, can't judge the MG Turret yet as only one of my classes has it (damn saving for HP for a mech). I do know it fires somewhat slower, which is okay, but I don't quite know the damage. I did find they're paper-thin now and a single TOW will take them out, so really they're barely going to last... but with them being re-placeable after some time, I guess I can accept that.

Their DPS got nerfed a lot.
It's still useful if you use it right, but it's not going to kill anyone on their own unless they're particularly... distracted.
This is a GOOD thing by the way.

Honestly, I still think they're more useful than HE charges.

[Beemann]

DarkPulse, on November 21 2012 - 10:27 AM, said:

I wonder if now that all items recharge, the old MG Turret argument of "But you get one that sticks around!" still flies.

That said, can't judge the MG Turret yet as only one of my classes has it (damn saving for HP for a mech). I do know it fires somewhat slower, which is okay, but I don't quite know the damage. I did find they're paper-thin now and a single TOW will take them out, so really they're barely going to last... but with them being re-placeable after some time, I guess I can accept that.

They're much more balanced this time around, and they DO still have a level of unmatched persistence that removes the need for timing
That said I think the cooldown should start after the turret gets popped, and should be balanced for that situation. It's really not hard for a decent player to get good mileage out of a turret until halfway through the cooldown or more. It's no fun fighting someone who basically has a second item ready to go once you get rid of the first one

[DarkPulse]

AsianJoyKiller, on November 21 2012 - 11:02 AM, said:

Their DPS got nerfed a lot.
It's still useful if you use it right, but it's not going to kill anyone on their own unless they're particularly... distracted.
This is a GOOD thing by the way.

...Not that it would do that before... Once again, I almost never got killed by turrets, because you'd have to be pretty damn blind or distracted to even seriously be hurt by them.

Now I'm pretty much never going to be killed by them if I've got a halfway-decent line of sight, especially since I can make it crumple in one shot.

Edited by DarkPulse, November 21 2012 - 11:19 AM.

[AsianJoyKiller]

Beemann, on November 21 2012 - 11:11 AM, said:

DarkPulse, on November 21 2012 - 10:27 AM, said:

I wonder if now that all items recharge, the old MG Turret argument of "But you get one that sticks around!" still flies.

That said, can't judge the MG Turret yet as only one of my classes has it (damn saving for HP for a mech). I do know it fires somewhat slower, which is okay, but I don't quite know the damage. I did find they're paper-thin now and a single TOW will take them out, so really they're barely going to last... but with them being re-placeable after some time, I guess I can accept that.

They're much more balanced this time around, and they DO still have a level of unmatched persistence that removes the need for timing
That said I think the cooldown should start after the turret gets popped, and should be balanced for that situation. It's really not hard for a decent player to get good mileage out of a turret until halfway through the cooldown or more. It's no fun fighting someone who basically has a second item ready to go once you get rid of the first one

Pretty much.
Unless I'm placing an emergency turret to cover my ass in a retreat, my cooldown is always done by the time the turret gets destroyed.

[AsianJoyKiller]

DarkPulse, on November 21 2012 - 11:17 AM, said:

AsianJoyKiller, on November 21 2012 - 11:02 AM, said:

Their DPS got nerfed a lot.
It's still useful if you use it right, but it's not going to kill anyone on their own unless they're particularly... distracted.
This is a GOOD thing by the way.

...Not that it would do that before... Once again, I almost never got killed by turrets, because you'd have to be pretty damn blind or distracted to even seriously be hurt by them.

But it sure was easy as hell to have a turret do at least a 1/3 of the damage for you. Which was incredibly ridiculous.

[Thrull]

Hipnox, on November 21 2012 - 08:58 AM, said:

All they need to do is place EMP on the offensive slot and it's perfect.

This seems like a no-brainer.  It's clearly an offensive item, and this might actually tempt people away from their machine gun turrets.

[KaszaWspraju]

I ask you now, what items you choose, since CB3 we only have a choice of two slots instead of three:

I always have now: EMP and MG-Turret or HE.

The rest since CB3 i completely ignore.

In CB2 always had something that worked for my team, even in the two slots.sometimes.

Edited by KaszaWspraju, November 21 2012 - 12:46 PM.

[D3thpool]

KaszaWspraju, on November 21 2012 - 11:58 AM, said:

I ask you now, what items you choose, since CB3 we only have a choice of two slots instead of three:

I always have now: EMP and MG-Turret or HE.

The rest since CB3 i completely ignore.

In CB2 always had something that worked for my team, even in the two slots.sometimes.

pretty much the same here.

[Ace4225]

it seems to me an easy fix would simply be to nerf the AOE of the EMP. [and the duration of effect a little]

I.E. make it a direct-hit-only, like the HE Charge [ish]. That would mean it would no longer be effective against multiple enemies, but if it has a cooldown, [which is fine considering the other items aren't so bad] I think it's a fair tradeoff.

since the MG turret only takes one TOW to kill now [whereas before it was ~ 2 TOWs and a bit of primary fire] I'm hardly if ever threatened by it.

Edited by Ace4225, November 21 2012 - 01:19 PM.

[KaszaWspraju]

It's not about nerf EMP but the developers have created a situation such as by limiting slots and regenerate items.

[Ace4225]

limiting slots was a good change imho.

In CB2, a lot of players would just drop 2 or 3 items in one spot in a panic and waste them. Now, I haven't seen that happen at all; people are thinking through item use more, which I think was the devs' desired outcome.

And nerfing the EMP could satisfy the same ends as removing cooldowns; why the heck should we sacrifice a decent change for one OP item_ simple solution: Nerf the OP item.

Just like they did with the MG turret.

Edited by Ace4225, November 21 2012 - 02:43 PM.

[KaszaWspraju]

Quote

people are thinking through item use more

Why do you have to think, just wait for the next set items. I think, we just have to think more when items are one-off.

Two different views of the same problem.  I like this forum.

Edited by KaszaWspraju, November 21 2012 - 02:54 PM.

[defekt]

KaszaWspraju, on November 21 2012 - 02:54 PM, said:

Quote

people are thinking through item use more

Why do you have to think, just wait for the next set items. I think, we just have to think more when items are one-off.

Two different views of the same problem.  I like this forum.

Damn this 'Like' quota.