20 replies to this topic

[ticklemyiguana]

So, I've been Hawkening for a little while, and, like, I love this game. I love ArchMech. And I love this community about as much as I love ArchMech. And, see, ArchMech takes his fuzzy bunny seriously. He goes and finds bugs and glitches and takes a good long look at them. Then he yells at them. He yells at them for everyone to see.

 

Hey guys, Blanton's Bourbon is like, $50 a bottle, and is super. If you're not yet the legal drinking age in your country, pretend you didn't see that.

 

Anyway, I want to yell about a couple things regarding Hawken. Because I love this game, and I love you, and you, and you get a car, and you too.

 

Hawken is fantastic, and it's relatively well balanced, and as far as most people are concerned, I'm usually on the side of the fence that's all "woah, bro, don't change a thing." But, this pasta is delicious, and this bourbon is delicious, and it's making me all kinds of antsy, and I want to tell you what I think should be changed.

 

1. The incinerator, as much as it's my purple little baby, is overpowered. It's beautiful, but I don't want to feel guilty every time I use it. I like the fact that it's a hard hitter, and I like the fact that it has infinite fire. It really makes it unique, and I <3 it. However, it's just ludicrous. I think we should experiment with maybe giving the incin a little less health, or perhaps slowing it down a little bit. Hell, an incin at brawler speed might still be OP if it had the same health. It's a great mech. It's too great. Find a way to nerf it that doesn't ruin it's uniqueness (ie, infinite fire, heat things.) Also, the ability is practically useless. As OP as it is, I don't want to see an ability go to waste. Perhaps it can do something like, in exchange for overheating, it can gain a certain amount of health. This might be particularly handy if we lower its health to begin with.

 

2. The berserker is plain annoying. It's not thaaat overpowered, but it is damn annoying. The combo of an aerial speed mech with a damage bonus ability, and one of the strongest weapon combos in the game, plus the highest health in a light mech, it's like a go-to for the worst people in the game (looking at you, IAreDave). It just feels plasticky and cheap. I'd appreciate it a lot more with a different set of primary weapons, but hey, that's a lot of code to sort through, remove, build, compile, and test. Just know that the Berserker is a bastard child to me.

 

3. The Air Compressor should be immediately accessible. It shouldn't require a particular level to attain. It's widely recognized as ONE of the greatest game altering internals in the game, and keeping it out of reach to new players is one of the only things that really gives Hawken even a semblance of a Pay to Win game.

 

4. Nerf health orbs plz. I'm fine with those dropped on death, but before HWK went dark, the meta for a scout in particular, was 3 health orbs, advanced repair kit, extractor, and possibly a basic reconstructor. The result was a hellspawn with the health of a vanguard and the speed of.. A scout. It would be appreciated if itemized repair orbs were nerfed in some fashion. It would be possible to lower the amount of health they restored, or maybe do something interesting like give a small amount of heat along with health.

 

5. I'd like to consider the possibility of removing the turncap. This might not have a hell of a lot of popularity, but I'm biased. I've participated at high tiers of play, and I've loved every moment of it. Except maybe my last game against TANG. I would love the ability to turn as fast as possible, and really push the game in the direction of an arena FPS. Bear in mind, that may not be the best marketing strategy. I just want to see it, or maybe have the option to remove it on private servers.

 

6. The tech gets waaaay too many points for what it does. If you're in a tech (the only tech on the team) and you're not either in first place, or just behind a player who's leagues above you, I'm going to yell at you. Not really, but the tech scores so many points for heals. Maybe reduce that by a point or two per point gaining section of heals?

 

7. The tech also is on the level of OP as far as team play is concerned. If it's a fairly balanced 6v6, and one team pulls out a tech, the other team has to as well. It'd be nice to maybe increase the heat generated by the heal-beam by a tad, so it can't be spammed so hard alongside incin.

 

8. Let us make custom camos. We will literally pay $15 a mech to do so. Let us send them in, you decide, and then market them as your own with credit and a small MC royalty to the creator. Seriously. Almost everyone in this game that plays a significant amount expresses a personal style through their mechs. 

 

9. The scanner. So, pred vision is nice. It lets you see through walls, and like, most games consider that "wallhacking" and, really, it sort of is. However, the wonkiness of the pred sort of balances that out. HOWEVER, what if there was an inexpensive item equipable on any mech that not only let you see through the walls near you, but gave your entire team a peek as well. lol. What sort of nonsense would that be. Oh. Wait. Yeah. No, that's a thing. The scanner lets every single member of your team have wallhacks. And like. That's absurd. Stop it. Make it some sort of purely audible pinging noise when mechs are near you, or something. Just, don't keep it the way it is. If there's one item on this list that just plain deserves removal, this is it.

 

Anyway, just a couple things for the fresh devs to look at with a fresh mindset.

Edited by ticklemyiguana, 22 March 2015 - 01:37 AM.

[Elite_is_salty]

 

5. I'd like to consider the possibility of removing the turncap. This might not have a hell of a lot of popularity, but I'm biased. I've participated at high tiers of play, and I've loved every moment of it. Except maybe my last game against TANG. I would love the ability to turn as fast as possible, and really push the game in the direction of an arena FPS. Bear in mind, that may not be the best marketing strategy. I just want to see it, or maybe have the option to remove it on private servers.

 

[moosa17]

1) I'm awful with Incin. It feels like it has a lazy eye. One weapon shoots straight, the other arcs downward. But I guess if you can consistently hit people with all of that then it would be very powerful. Other people say it's OP so I guess I believe them. 

2) Berserker needs to die. You don't need to give a zippy pestery mech with the ability to fly circles around your head the highest DPS weapons and then give it an ability that, whoop-dee-doo, increases DPS. 

3) Probably

4) Maybe limit the carry to 1 orb

5) Absolutely not. You might as well remove dodging while you're at it.

6) Yes it does. Playing tech is like cruise control if you like seeing your name at the top of the list. 

7) Probably, but I would be gentle with nerfing the tech.

 

8) I really don't care

9) Radar scrambler is much better. It even directly counters the scanner. Scanner is pretty good for higher level play, but so are other items. 

[ticklemyiguana]

Shhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh.

 

 

1) I'm awful with Incin. It feels like it has a lazy eye. One weapon shoots straight, the other arcs downward. But I guess if you can consistently hit people with all of that then it would be very powerful. Other people say it's OP so I guess I believe them. 

2) Berserker needs to die. You don't need to give a zippy pestery mech with the ability to fly circles around your head the highest DPS weapons and then give it an ability that, whoop-dee-doo, increases DPS. 

3) Probably

4) Maybe limit the carry to 1 orb

5) Absolutely not. You might as well remove dodging while you're at it.

6) Yes it does. Playing tech is like cruise control if you like seeing your name at the top of the list. 

7) Probably, but I would be gentle with nerfing the tech.

 

8) I really don't care

9) Radar scrambler is much better. It even directly counters the scanner. Scanner is pretty good for higher level play, but so are other items. 

 

I'm really replying to 9. Scrambler gives the enemy false dots on the radar. However, the dots move at a constant speed that is neither equivalent to the walk or boost speed of any mech, and they go through obvious walls. These two things combined make the scrambler somewhat useless other than being a temporary distraction (though multiple scramblers increase the effect). The scanner still reigns supreme. Also, if you know enough to drop a scrambler near a scanner, you often know enough to destroy the scanner in the first place.

Edited by ticklemyiguana, 22 March 2015 - 01:07 AM.

[Dawn_of_Ash]

I gotta agree entirely with your point about the custom camos thing. I would love to see as much creativity as I have seen on the forums, in the game. I would also love to see some rewards to - perhaps even a mention to - the players who did not abandon the game and helped promote it. And before anyone even thinks it, no I am not one of these people - I seriously wish I was, but I seriously don't deserve even a glance. People I'm talking about are the people who participated in the TCG before it...disappeared, people who hosted community events for the game and people who helped promote the game on social media (*cough* FawkenAwesome *cough*). Also people who helped get the game back and running. Honestly, you guys deserve more than you get...

 

Also, I seriously have to seriously stop using seriously. Honestly, this is seriously becoming a somewhat serious problem. And I'm seriously serious.

Edited by Dawn_of_Ash, 22 March 2015 - 01:15 AM.

[CrimsonKaim]

Problem with custom design is the following:

 

World o' dicks

 

 

Some ppl just draw some weird stuff. You said we can send them in? But there needs to be someone checking these and imagine with 1000 players sending in their designs.

 

May-be-soon.

Edited by FakeName, 22 March 2015 - 01:08 AM.

[ticklemyiguana]

Problem with custom design is the following:

 

World o' dicks

 

 

Some ppl just draw some weird stuff. You said we can send them in? But there needs to be someone checking these and imagine with 1000 players sending in their designs.

 

May-be-soon.

Eh, hey. Multiplayer experience not rated by ESRB. People can shoot dicks into the wall if they really want to. Make a rule that says no profane images. It'll be no worse than the naming conventions that prohibit explicit names, yet people find ways around that.

[Dawn_of_Ash]

Problem with custom design is the following:

 

World o' dicks

 

 

 

I hope that I am not the only one who thinks that our community is too mature for this? You guys are the most mature community that I've ever been in and I love being a part of it! 

[Z1Alpha]

This post. This sums up my wants in terms of what is in-game and what "changes" can be made to Hawken. I disagree with the turn cap though, don't see a reason to be playing Toxxik or something :p

[ticklemyiguana]

fuzzy bunny you "quota of positive votes for the day". You're not my mom.

[Lioot]

No I love my scanners. Scanners for life

[CrimsonKaim]

I hope that I am not the only one who thinks that our community is too mature for this? You guys are the most mature community that I've ever been in and I love being a part of it! 

 

Just a reminder: This game is 13+

[bacon_avenger]

5. I'd like to consider the possibility of removing the turncap. This might not have a hell of a lot of popularity, but I'm biased. I've participated at high tiers of play, and I've loved every moment of it. Except maybe my last game against TANG. I would love the ability to turn as fast as possible, and really push the game in the direction of an arena FPS. Bear in mind, that may not be the best marketing strategy. I just want to see it, or maybe have the option to remove it on private servers.

Disagree.

The turn cap is, to me, part of what makes Hawken mechs, Hawken mechs. Removing the turn cap would take away from what makes it what it is.
 

8. Let us make custom camos. We will literally pay $15 a mech to do so. Let us send them in, you decide, and then market them as your own with credit and a small MC royalty to the creator. Seriously. Almost everyone in this game that plays a significant amount expresses a personal style through their mechs.

Oh ghods yes.

I mentioned this to Josh as well, but I also know from long discussions back in alpha ^_(ghosts!) that there is a lot of things that need to be figured out and happen before it can be done.

• How to push the custom decals/skins to each client
• How to minimize the drive space/bandwidth used
• Determine what format/size/colour format is allowed to be uploaded
• Determine where to actually do the uploads (client or web site)
• If decals are allowed, design and implement the tools needed for placement (fixed locations, variable, scaling?)
• A vetting process to prevent copyright/illegal/wibbly bits from being used
• A reporting process for those that slip through the process
• A review process for those that are reported as inappropriate/offensive

And that's just what I can recall off the top of my head at nearly 5AM.  This subject could be a thread on it's own. 
 

Believe me, I'd be gladly throwing money at my monitor to have my avatar plastered on my mechs.

[Dr_Freeze001]

Problem with custom design is the following:

 

World o' dicks

 

 

Some ppl just draw some weird stuff. You said we can send them in? But there needs to be someone checking these and imagine with 1000 players sending in their designs.

 

May-be-soon.

 

See, that's a good thing.

 

Right?

 

 

 

 

But yea, I agree with pretty much everything exept turn-cap. Even Tech might be, to a certain degree, but only very slightly, just a little bit, an incy-wincy, OP in team games. But that's why tech exists, right? To give your team an advantage. 

 

Thing is tho, I don't see your ' 6v6 is balanced, but 5 + tech v6 isn't ' argument. A tech is very easily killed if he's focused down. If it's a good technician player and he maneuvers in such a way to not get focused and stick to the team, then he simply is a good player. There would be no difference between him playing another mech, because he would play it just as well and there would be the same balance issue.

 

Hear my theoretical ramblings!

 

My point is: whether he's a tech or otherwise, a good team vs less good team (notice how I didn't say bad) will be unbalanced either way. Pro's and cons, man, pro's and cons.

 

 

 

Tech does get a lot of points tho. Thing is that every Axe has 3 ways of getting score: killing enemy mechs, assisting in the killing of enemy mechs and doing objectives. Technician, however, has 4: the addition of healing teammates. The problem is that he can get this at any time, almost non-stop. I've had people shoot themselves so that I can repair them and start of with 15-20 score before the countdown even ends.

 

Maybe, just maybe, it would be best to nerf or even remove this 4^th way of scoring. I mean, when a tech is 700 points ahead it's either the best game ever of very unbalanced.

 

 

A technician shouldn't be gloating about his own score, but the score of his team.

[Duralumi]

R E M O V E H E L I X

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H
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Dedicated healers destroy part of what makes this game unique: self-maintenence; the Tech-backed team doesn't have to consider when they need to repair as much. You can do so much dumb stuff with a Tech latched onto you it's surreal.

Not to mention it's basically THE catalyst for deathballs.

 

I'd love to see it given a passive AoE heal comparable to the Brawler's turret regen and the Helix replaced with the Red0x.

Edited by Duralumi, 22 March 2015 - 05:20 AM.

[defekt]

I'll be honest: I'd still like to see all Techs crushed and recycled to make portable toilets.  The Tech was the beginning of the end for me and Hawken.  It's not just the Tech in and of itself, but it also served to highlight ADH's increasingly confused view of what this game was meant to be.  As has been said so many times before: the concept was sound but the implementation was weak-minded -- essentially just the TF2 medic.

 

I don't know whether the new devs are planning to revisit stuff like this but if they are I hope that whatever they settle upon doing, be that inclusive of the Tech or not, that the vision is clear and doesn't kowtow to a few loud voices that claim to know what the people want.

[Fantus_Longhorn]

Thing is tho, I don't see your ' 6v6 is balanced, but 5 + tech v6 isn't ' argument. A tech is very easily killed if he's focused down. If it's a good technician player and he maneuvers in such a way to not get focused and stick to the team, then he simply is a good player. There would be no difference between him playing another mech, because he would play it just as well and there would be the same balance issue.

 

Hear my theoretical ramblings!

 

My point is: whether he's a tech or otherwise, a good team vs less good team (notice how I didn't say bad) will be unbalanced either way. Pro's and cons, man, pro's and cons.

 

The question here is why is it OK that the Tech has to be singled out and killed? Why does it make that much difference to a match that it has to be dealt with immediately? Isn't that a problem in itself?

 

 

As has been said so many times before: the concept was sound but the implementation was weak-minded -- essentially just the TF2 medic.

 

Also, whilst the beam of the tech is sticky, that is the only real comparison to TF2 that there is with Hawken. TF2 does not have health dropped on death, health orbs (with the exception of some tiny health items), the ability to self repair and internals that repair you over time. There are a lot of options when it comes to repair in Hawken (perhaps too many?). You don't need a Tech in a game but, because you don't need it, when you add one in it adds to the repair options available of which there are already a ton. In TF2, you need a Medic because there are so few 'repair' options available to you without one.

 

TL:DR

- Hawken already has a significant amount of repair options before adding the Tech.

- TF2 has very few 'repair' options before adding a Medic.

[defekt]

There are more comparisons than just the sticky beam: they're both fast and relatively weak; they both act as force multipliers; as you say, they both reliably heal at a distance (sticky beam); they both combine to create the unbiquitous Heavy-Medic steamrollers; they both have healing overcharge ability; the Tech even has a shocking German accent and a God complex.  IIRC the TF2 medic was sited indirectly as the model to emulate for Hawken. 

 

Team Fortress Classic had a Medic in it from the start so it's impossible to say how well that game plays without the Medic - probably poorly - but we do have the luxury of having played Hawken without the Tech.  (At least those of us who were around pre-Tech did.)

 

And yes, there is way too much freely available healing in Hawken now; it's virtually only one step removed from merely taking cover to heal over time, a la CoD.  (Edit: The irony being that such a mechanic makes more sense in a mech game than it does in CoD.)

 

* I may have made up the bit about the accent.  (But not the God complex.)

Edited by defekt, 22 March 2015 - 09:23 AM.

[Amidatelion]

Oh boy, drunk tickle.

 

1. Nerf damage, nerf Large SAARE, make heat management more prominent.

 

2. Drop its health pool. That's it. That's the fix. Having the most damage and the most HP of an A-class is just asinine.

 

3. AC to like, level 10. That gives you time to figure out basic movement. First purchase of it discounted maybe.

 

4. Honestly, I think the answer is just to divide the items - dropped souls stay the same, canned souls are reduced to 60hp, bringing them inline with the det's HP advantage.

 

5. Go home tickle, you're drunk.

 

6. Sure, cut the points. Maybe by a third?

 

7. Someone mentioned making it shoot little projectile health orbs. I like this idea because then I can make a little Mega Man mech running behind people shooting chiclets at them. That I'll subsequently never use because fuzzy bunny support classes.

 

8. See requests for Steam Workshop. See also the enormous fuzzy bunnyng legal garbage that comes along with that. Reloaded absolutely does not have the resources to do this and investing in those resources runs counter to their plan for getting this game back on its feet. Community content is a great idea. For a game bigger and more liquid than this.

 

9. See this suggestion and then Hyginos' below with the turrets-as-scanners. Also, yeah a versimilitude buff on the scrambler would be good. Though I'm telling you, more than one really starts making them functional. Which brings me to another buff for deployables - let us drop more than one of each type. I mean, christ, turrets are useless enough as is without letting us set up a proper nest of them. Limit scanner to one in the current iteration, but take up Hyginos' or my ideas? No need to limit to one. And then you could get scout-type mechs actually scouting properly.

[Sylhiri]

I honestly think that personal health orbs should only function when manually healing. To bypass the long activation time you would need to throw it down ahead of time (like you need to do now) and your manual healing would be faster. This removes them from a battle situation entirely (unless your playing the long distance game, even then since your manually healing you'll be vulnerable). They would have to be colored blue or something to indicate that they are not the orbs that spawn on mech death, those can have decreased health gain but function like normal.

[ticklemyiguana]

I hear you on the turn cap. I questioned it myself, but that doesn't mean I wouldn't like to at least see how the game felt without it.

Freeze, yes, the tech can be focused down. But Fantus is right for more reasons than he's mentioned. If you're in a public match, it's rare to get that sort of coordination.

I like the tech. I want it in. In my opinion, being that more games DON'T have a medic option, it helps make Hawken Hawken. It increases the average TTK, forces more tactical decisions, and plain and simple, is a fun mech to play. I have fun playing with it, and many other people do to. This is a game. We should keep things that have the potential to make it fun. I also play the game competitively, so I'm very concerned about balance, which is why I brought up those suggestions.

While I'm all for debate, we're also all aware that the tech debate has just had he life squeezed out of it. If you want to debate whether or not it should be in the game, please find an appropriate thread to do so. There are nine suggestions, two of which are based on the tech, and none of which ask the game to remove anything. This is not the thread.

Edited by ticklemyiguana, 22 March 2015 - 10:41 AM.