20 replies to this topic

[WWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW]

Reading and contemplating the following thread, Feedbach time - tested Hawken, in which a new player outlines their first impressions after testing Hawken, I have identified a relatively simple problem with a relatively simple solution.
 
The problem is thus: The starting MMR (1250 to my knowledge) is too low to represent new players that come from an experienced shooter background. It is relatively clear that the MMR is so low, in fact, that players at that level do not have even the intuition to move while firing.
 
This problem can affect both inexperienced new players and experienced new players by forcing them to play against each other. Inexperienced new players do not get a chance to play around with other new players to build intuition for Hawken, potentially becoming frustrated enough to simply give up. Evidently, experienced players have gotten the impression that Hawken is a simple, easy game and extrapolate that into a simple, easy learning curve, and leave with the impression that Hawken is a simple game. (Whether this is true or not is irrelevant because it is the new player experience that is important.)
 
The solution, simply, is to implement a function that has been implemented in other games, including within the notoriously complex MOBA genre.
 
It is as follows: When a new player first queues for matchmaking (or presses the "Play" button, or even first logs into Hawken, so as to prime bot AI), they are presented with question to the effect of "How experienced are you with the first-person shooter genre of video game?"
 
The question will provide the possible following answers, and upon answering, the player's MMR will be set to an initial value:
(1) "I am new to video games." (MMR := 1250)
(2) "I have played shooter games in the past." (MMR := 1400)
(3) "I regularly play shooter games." (MMR := 1550)
(4) "I play shooter games competitively." (MMR := 1700)
 
This solution shall decrease the time necessary for the MMR algorithm to find an MMR that adequately portrays a player's skill and more rapidly provides a suitable experience. The difference between each initial placement is 150 points, which is hopefully sufficient to provide a different experience, while still modest enough to provide room for correction on over- and underestimations of personal skill and/or experience on the new player's part.

Edited by WWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW, 28 April 2015 - 01:08 PM.

[Silverfire]

It's an interesting idea, what about 

 

1. I'm new/not particularly good at/to shooter type games (1250, 1300, that range)

2. I have played shooter type games in the past (1400, 1450, 1500)

3. I have played shooter type games competitively (1700)

 

And then a quick message saying that this will help initially place you in a skill range most appropriate to you. Don't think it's entirely necessary to separate your 2 and 3 option, feel like that they can be met in the middle with the old average 1500.  Your option 1 is a bit harsh, Hawken was generally my first foray into a serious FPSes 2+ years ago, I had dabbled in computer FPSes before but never took one seriously until Hawken.  My exposure to FPSes was Star Wars Battlefront 2 (but it's mostly 3rd person view so I really don't count it) and Combat Arms (a 1 year span on and off)  I had played mostly RTS, flight simulator games (like AC4), and turn based strategy games beforehand, therefore I was definitely not new to video games, but fairly new to FPSes, thus the desire to have your description for option 1 changed.  Option 3, well, that's iffy.  I mean "played competitively" is so subjective.  It could be like "oh hurr durr I take FPSes seriously mlgpro bruh"  or it could be a professional type player.  There's just such a wide range of it, but I can see where 1700 could be a decent middle ground for that.

 

 

 

TL;DR I like it but needs a few tweaks. Overall has great potential.

Edited by Silverfire, 28 April 2015 - 01:25 PM.

[Leonhardt]

This is a great idea.

[WastingTime]

LLLLLLLLIIIIIIIIKKKKKKKKEEEEEEEE

[WWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW]

[...]

TL;DR I like it but needs a few tweaks. Overall has great potential.

 

Good tweaks, I like that. I personally prefer a more granular set of options, to better include a wider range of experiences. Given that Hawken is a F2P game, I feel that there is a chance that, in fact, Hawken might indeed be the first complex video game (compared to say, simple or casual puzzle games) a new player might come across, hence why I presented an extra option.

[Silverfire]

Good tweaks, I like that. I personally prefer a more granular set of options, to better include a wider range of experiences. Given that Hawken is a F2P game, I feel that there is a chance that, in fact, Hawken might indeed be the first complex video game (compared to say, simple or casual puzzle games) a new player might come across, hence why I presented an extra option.

 

I guess my issue at its core is your descriptions used for each MMR selection.  Could use clarification to avoid confusion in new players (examples listed in my OP you snipped).

[AsianJoyKiller]

This would even help with smurfs (I'm still pretty sure the smurf "problem" is mostly a myth. I'm talking from the perspective of people who do smurf).

It would allow people who smurf because of MMR lockouts, but still prefer to play near their level, to skip whole tiers of players where they are basically immortal against their opponents.

[CraftyDus]

This would even help with smurfs (I'm still pretty sure the smurf "problem" is mostly a myth. I'm talking from the perspective of people who do smurf).

It would allow people who smurf because of MMR lockouts, but still prefer to play near their level, to skip whole tiers of players where they are basically immortal against their opponents.

Spoiler

[ticklemyiguana]

I like it. I just want the word "competitive" changed, as it might lead some new players to believe that the games they get at 1700 are actually competitive. (Competitive in the sense that we're using it. Not in the sense that players actually compete with each other.) I swear it's not an elitist comment, it's just rounding things out. Someone who comes in and still finds 1700 too low is going to still be like "lol Hawkn 2 simple 4 me."

Something along the lines of "I am very good at ("arena" optional) FPS games" might be better.

Edited by ticklemyiguana, 28 April 2015 - 01:57 PM.

[Nov8tr]

Hawken is the only shooter I have played in many years. Yeah I use to rock the house in them. But that was back in Quake and UT days. In fact I play MMO's most the time, I just like em. I had not played Hawken for over a year since starting up again a few weeks ago. That and my age makes it a lot harder to "get back in the feel" of the game. I'm working on it.

[Draigun]

Interesting concept, this would apply a solution that should alleviate some of the faults of Hawken's learning curve, but the difference from low to high end tiers remains unchanged, and thus, still is a problem for the vast majority. It wouldn't make sense that the highest indicator of difficulty is miniscule in comparison to those who have reached the skill ceiling.

 

Either that, or the problem may lie within the fact the player base is still too low to even achieve desired tiers on a relative scale. Whatever the case, smurf fixing, which is to say an ideal state of tier classification, should be top priority when looking at fixing Hawken's matchmaking system.

 

This would even help with smurfs (I'm still pretty sure the smurf "problem" is mostly a myth. I'm talking from the perspective of people who do smurf).

It would allow people who smurf because of MMR lockouts, but still prefer to play near their level, to skip whole tiers of players where they are basically immortal against their opponents.

 

Ideally, you'd want to eliminate smurfing in the first place before implementing a cold MMR value propagation technique. Sure, it would greatly mitigate the negative effects of smurfing in the game, but the community shouldn't have to smurf in the first place to play the game.

 

The player base is still small enough to test things without a huge loss of stability, so I'm all for trying new concepts to implement in the game.

[Rei]

Yeah this is good, just a simple Laila interview when you finish training would be great.

[crockrocket]

1700 is a good number on the high end too. You know someone's going to be cocky going in and seed themselves high, but at 1700 at least they won't get super trounced for long. 

 

I probably would have been better off starting at 1250 than 1500 as it was when I joined, but then again at that point I would have quit because of mmr locking.

[(P:B)Augmentia]

I don't think this is a good idea. I have played a bunch of FPS and other such games, and none of this prepared me for the unique Hawken playstyle. It really doesn't matter if you have previous experience with other game, as Hawken is a whole different beast. I personally think the starting MMR should be around 1350-1400, as this is a good starting place for the newbs. I think, however, that there should be a half-hour long game in which the MMR of the bots are constantly matching your skill level, and at the end you get your average MMR. That would be an idea I could support, but only for the very first game. There should also be a warning, telling the player that it was a "placeholder" match to accurately depict your MMR. The only faults I could find with this is hackers. They would automatically get a hella high MMR, and stay up there if they wanted to just drift on the top of the leaderboards without playing any just for the lolz.

[?FTD? eXeon]

I like this idea, wording could use some work as suggested previously. 

[CrimsonKaim]

Add this option: I am a smurf account (MMR=700 or MMR=2000 one of these)

[-Tj-]

Another thought: couldn't MMR be assessed from a single match against bots? Just wondering if instead of a survey you could just pit the new player against bots in a single, required match before being allowed into the game.

[crockrocket]

Add this option: I am a smurf account (MMR=700 or MMR=2000 one of these)

Why would you want 700 to be a smurf option? Other than that I think that's a good option, maybe have them verify through their main account's email?

[CrimsonKaim]

Why would you want 700 to be a smurf option? Other than that I think that's a good option, maybe have them verify through their main account's email?

Cause either you want a smurf account to pwn noobs (700) or to be able to join atleast one match (2000).
In both cases, mmr should be fixed for tue smurf account.

[6ixxer]

I think that asking the new player what level they are is an indicator, but combine it with a bot skirmish test.

 

ie: I say I am an awesome FPS player (either I am; or just think I am and Hawken is like all other FPS)

 

Then follow up with a training map where the AI is programmed to match that level.

If your performance against the bot at that level is good (best 3 of 5 duel?), you keep that MMR, otherwise it says try again at the next lower level.

[Aregon]

Cause either you want a smurf account to pwn noobs (700) or to be able to join atleast one match (2000).
In both cases, mmr should be fixed for tue smurf account.

How is that smart? You give players the option to destroy the experience of those not equally good as them, and may drive people away from the game.