184 replies to this topic

[Interrobang87]

Sustain weapons should have higher dps than bust weapons because they fulfill different roles (open field vs corner play). Otherwise there would be no reason to use sustain if burst did everything better.

Do I agree that sustain weapons (minus the Vulcan) could use a SLIGHT numbers tweak? Absolutely. But let's not erode the roles that these reasons were designed to fill.

Can we stop beating this topic to death now?

[Hellzilla]

It's funny how thebuttsatisfier gets to keep his name, but exeon lost his for a little duck the felay.

 

I think they didn't appreciate the delay argument being crassly addressed in a thinly veiled manner. But there's no debate that butts need to be satisfied, and are being satisfied as we speak. Hallelujah!

[?FTD? eXeon]

I think they didn't appreciate the delay argument being crassly addressed in a thinly veiled manner. But there's no debate that butts need to be satisfied, and are being satisfied as we speak. Hallelujah!

My name change had nothing to do with the thread and everything to do with the fact that it was a very simple reorganization of letters of an obviously unacceptable name that any 3rd grader would put together in under a minute. More likely it was that one line in a single post I made calling out the person who fixed my name and pretty much challenging their authority by threatening to do it again, this is also why the thread got shut down imo. As for questioning my motives, it has always been about making boosting in combat a reliable strategy and hopefully take us away from this awfully bland and boring strafe+sustain=win meta. If you care to discuss this more lets take it to PM's or start a new thread about it

 

 

Sustain weapons should have higher dps than bust weapons because they fulfill different roles (open field vs corner play). Otherwise there would be no reason to use sustain if burst did everything better.

Is this in response to my comment or something else? If it was about mine, I didn't want burst weapons to become the staple of the game, I just want the highest DPS weapons to not be hitscan easymode because as long as they are the highest DPS they will be chosen over projectile counterparts unless the DPS difference is reduced by a good bit. 

 

 

Can we stop beating this topic to death now?

No. 

[Xacius]

If you care to discuss this more lets take it to PM's or start a new thread about it

The day that they gain the ability to push out new client builds, I'm starting a thread.  The delay debate is not over.  

Edited by Xacius, 10 May 2015 - 08:45 PM.

[BaronSaturday]

This is still being discussed... Vulcan xts need a slight buff. SMCs need a slight nerf in DPS. ACs need a spred tweak or fall off nerf. RPTs need a damagr buff ever so slightly wit a fall off nerf to compensate. Snipers be snipers.

There we go. I summed up the thread for everyone.

[Nov8tr]

And now for something completely different..............

 

[?FTD? eXeon]

This is still being discussed... Vulcan xts need a slight buff. SMCs need a slight nerf in DPS. ACs need a spred tweak or fall off nerf. RPTs need a damagr buff ever so slightly wit a fall off nerf to compensate. Snipers be snipers.

There we go. I summed up the thread for everyone.

You obviously werent around for pre-nerf g2 assault, it may not have been overpowered but it sure was insanely strong and absolutely brainless to use. Admittedly the noises it makes are awesome.

[Dew]

Insanely strong is a bit of an overstatement, if anything.

 

It just wasn't bad. Like it is now. Now it's just a challenge mech and something to chuckle around with as you instagib unsuspecting A-classes.

 

Also a big fat stinker in the MC store for newbies to spend money on and then quit when they realize the big expensive thing they bought is worthless to them. Every time I see an account under level 10 running around with an MC-bought G2 assault or G2 raider I just smh.

Edited by Dew, 11 May 2015 - 11:10 AM.

[CrimsonKaim]

Okey hurry up now. I see this every game. 

 

3 A-Classes engage on two Assaults. 

Outcome: 3 A-Classes dead and 2 Assaults alive. Why? Because one second of sustained fire deals more damage than one combo of burst fire. 

 

 

The startegy of Assaults: Never hide for cover, also engage (there is no other viable gameplay, always look for ope nfields and attack because you are always dominant in these situations. Atleast against brust mechs).

 

Just today several matches. Was practicing in my Predator with double EOC ofcourse and it is so damn insane hard to hit flying Assautls with this nooby AirCompressor and this 1 minute+ fire. 

My DPS in the Predator is so damn low compared to the sustained, whic his fine, but my burst is just as effective as the Assault ones. 

The same applies for Infiltrator or Heat-Grenadeer. 

 

So what did I do? Incinerator Boom-Boom easy win. Always take sustained mechs in team modes (or even in DM) if you want to win. You don't have to have aiming skills or play a complex strategy, always go in agressively against any kind of A-Classes and every Burst-B-Class.

 

This is dumb. And the argument "new players have to ..." No. Tehy don't have to be even with skilled burst players. 

 

 

I myself play my Infiltrator with EOC Repeater, Failsafe, Deflectors, Air 180 and a shock coil. My items are two Detonators (for one-shotting the 3 low-health A-Classes) and two blockades for laughing at enemies stuck in tunnels.

No orblording, no aircompressor, no sustained weapons, no hitscan. 

The only thing that is easy to use is the Grenade Launcher. But no matter how hard a mech/weapon is to use, they are even with the easy-to-use mechs/weapons and there is the problem.

 

Either we nerf the easy-to-use wepaons which involves almost every hitscan and sustained weapon (Assault Rifle, SMC, ReFlak, Flak, etc.) or we increase the skill required for these mechs/weapons (increase heat generation, add weapon spread when flying/dodging, increase cooldown of TOW or reduce flight speed, etc.)

 

There are reasons why I hear and see that ReFlak Raiders, Assault Rifle Infiltrators, Flak Scouts, Vulcan Gren, RPR Reapers, etc. are way more effective that their burst siblings like EOC Raider/Infil, Heat Scout, Slug Reaper, etc. 

 

And I am getting so fed up with this. Only skilled players should be able to kill skilled players. And you should not get any advantage (or disadvantage) just because you play a different mech. 

 

Low skill required -> Low maximum efficiency

High skill required -> High maximum efficiency 

 

Sounds logical, huh? Well, I am afraid I am not able to say that this is not true in Hawken. 

 

 

Suggestions to solve the whole problem:

 

- Re-implement weapon spread when flying and dodging (shouldn't be able to hit targets at mid range, close range only - applies for every weapon)

- Increase heating for EVERY weapon between 100% - 250% (EOC Repeater for example 250%, sustained wepaons 200%, sniper rifles 100%)

- Decrease TOW flight speed or increase cooldown by between 0.5 - 1 second(s)

 

 

 

And something off-topic: Do somethign against this 6-player-classes-team in TDM.

[Blaz0re]

Every mech has it's own role in this game, the assault just happens to be the allrounder. He's designed that way.
The predator is for flanking and assassinations. If you are fighting an assault face to face in the open and he flies around, you played your role as predator wrong. Sure in this case somebody less skilled than you can take you down because he has a natural advantage.

I personally think that sustained dmg is a little bit stronger than burst, but to me it's not significant. It's much more about the way the players play and move, use their environment and fuel efficiently, don't forget that it's still a huge deal to dodge a TOW or grenade.

It's pretty hard to take down an a class even when it's on low health when it's dancing around you if you miss your shots, but in my opinion it's so much more rewarding and satisfying to get kills with burst weapons than to klick, hold and wait until the enemies life is drained to zero.

[CrimsonKaim]

Every mech has it's own role in this game, the assault just happens to be the allrounder. He's designed that way.
The predator is for flanking and assassinations. If you are fighting an assault face to face in the open and he flies around, you played your role as predator wrong. Sure in this case somebody less skilled than you can take you down because he has a natural advantage.

I personally think that sustained dmg is a little bit stronger than burst, but to me it's not significant. It's much more about the way the players play and move, use their environment and fuel efficiently, don't forget that it's still a huge deal to dodge a TOW or grenade.

It's pretty hard to take down an a class even when it's on low health when it's dancing around you if you miss your shots, but in my opinion it's so much more rewarding and satisfying to get kills with burst weapons than to klick, hold and wait until the enemies life is drained to zero.

 

 

I don't mind the Assault fitting every role. My problem is it fittign every role nearly perfectly. It is just too good in, well, everything. Additionally it is so damn easy to play which does not justfies its power.

 

What can I do wrong when piloting a Pred? See, I am not that dumb and go face-to-face against Assaults, thing is, they do that with me. And the problem is, they can succeed to archieve that situation way too easy. The best thing you can do to avoid miens is flying, which every Assault does (includign Airzerker).

 

So the efficiency of a double EOC Pred is 0 or atleast below 33% against unskilled players. 

 

Sure I have advantage in corner play, oh wait, Assault has a TOW, it is also effective in corner play, even wit ha high DPS and guess what, it is not even that hard to hit palyers behind walls wit ha TOW.

 

 

If it is hard for you to take down an A-Class which is dancing around you, then your movement is just bad. A good Assault can always (or nearly always) hit an A-Class wit hsustained weapons. This ifcourse does not apply to unskilled Assaults. I can outmanouver pub-Assaults but still, just hit spacebar and fly backward and continue to shoot, you won#t overheta anyways. Especially not with this ability.

[Hyginos]

 

So the efficiency of a double EOC Pred is 0 or at least below 33% against unskilled players. 

 

Did you mean against skilled players? If not please clarify.

[CrimsonKaim]

Did you mean against skilled players? If not please clarify.

 

0% against skilled players 33% against unskilled players. These are just random numbers to reflect the difference between Assaults and other mechs.

[Blaz0re]

I don't quite get the point.

The Predator is not made for 1v1 onslaught. If he starts flying, just run away. Try to hit people from behind or from the sides. Rather support your teammates. Don't forget how powerful preds can be in siege with their mines. Not only spamming them everywhere but inside the AA area you can easily predict the enemies movement and shoot your mines in front of their feet or even directly in their face. Don't travel through the middle of the map, rather on the sides. Play slowly and use your X-ray vision to avoid confrontations which don't favour you but the enemy.

The Assault fits every role nearly perfeclty? No. Just no.

Shooting across the map better than a SS or Reaper?
Flanking better than Scout, Pred, Infiltrator?
Better Suppression than Grenadier, Rocketeer or Incinerator?

It is a very good 1v1 Mech and overall viable in many situations. But in most situations there are better options than the assault.
Don't get me wrong, I also think it's really easy to use and overall a really good mech. And that's what it should be. But there are a lot of different playstyles in this game and if you want to master your favourite you can't do it with the assault.
Every mech can win a 1v1 vs the assault. And if you have the problem that he's just flying around, dodge and get to cover. His fuel is limited.

[Xacius]

Every mech can win a 1v1 vs the assault. And if you have the problem that he's just flying around, dodge and get to cover. His fuel is limited.

 

Not really.  The Assault is the go-to at the moment.  Assuming two players of equal skill, it has a distinct advantage in 1v1's.  It can't win at range against a sharpshooter, but all it has to do is back away and start healing.  By the time the sharpshooter boosts into firing range, Assault is full HP and ready to pwnzors.  

 

It tears apart A-classes and can contest them in mostly any circumstance due to the 200+ hp advantage.  

 

Against C's, it has a speed and ability advantage.  Simply stay out of range or run/heal bait like with the sharpshooter.  Pick them off as they approach.  

[Blaz0re]

C-classes and SS aren't made to make the first step and run into the enemy. If they do they are at an disadvantage, that's sure.
If the Sharpshooter hits the asasult and the assault regenerates, it's not the SS job to hunt him down, he should keep distance. Wait at the end of an open field for the assault to come for him.
C-classes often rely on tight spaces and also shouldn't run out and let the enemy choose the battlefield.

Again, I think the Assault is a really strong mech and viable in many situations, but it's no miracle machine. In 1v1 situations the surroundings play a huge role.

[Amidatelion]

Again, I think the Assault is a really strong mech and viable in many situations, but it's no miracle machine. In 1v1 situations the surroundings play a huge role.

You are correct in that the surroundings matter. The issue is, the assault is currently in a position where it is able to take advantage of those surroundings without fail and without counter. It can dodge better than a C, so it is better at corner play and using cover. It has significantly more HP than an A, so it can force them out of cover and engage in the open. It has speed and HP on most other B classes as well.

Simply put, in a game where almost every mech has a downside the assault is OP by virtue that it has no weaknesses. Its very balance makes it the strongest choice, PERIOD.

[BaronSaturday]

You are correct in that the surroundings matter. The issue is, the assault is currently in a position where it is able to take advantage of those surroundings without fail and without counter. It can dodge better than a C, so it is better at corner play and using cover. It has significantly more HP than an A, so it can force them out of cover and engage in the open. It has speed and HP on most other B classes as well.

Simply put, in a game where almost every mech has a downside the assault is OP by virtue that it has no weaknesses. Its very balance makes it the strongest choice, PERIOD.

To add as I do agree.  The problem with changing any of the weapons on the Assault is that it would directly and more vastly effect the mechs that share that/those weapons.  The Zerker comes to mind.  While balanced, it is powerful.  But changing the weapons would have a substantially greater drop off for the zerker that it would the Assault so balancing the assault on weapons alone kills the mechs that share it's weapon pool.  I don't know why ADH did things this way, but they did.  In changing the weapons you would have to endlessly fiddle with stats on each of those mechs to re balance them.  It would be like building new mechs.  So why not just change the stats on the Assault?

[dorobo]

It really is a sensitive issue..

[BluetoothBoy]

Not really.  The Assault is the go-to at the moment.  Assuming two players of equal skill, it has a distinct advantage in 1v1's.  It can't win at range against a sharpshooter, but all it has to do is back away and start healing.  By the time the sharpshooter boosts into firing range, Assault is full HP and ready to pwnzors.  

 

It tears apart A-classes and can contest them in mostly any circumstance due to the 200+ hp advantage.  

 

Against C's, it has a speed and ability advantage.  Simply stay out of range or run/heal bait like with the sharpshooter.  Pick them off as they approach.  

While this may be true as a generalized statement, I would have to disagree about the "players of equal skill" in many cases. I am, just like many people, a decent Assault pilot. However, if I'm sittin' in my Vanguard, watch out - there's a very good chance I'll take you and your Assault out (provided you're a "player of equal skill"). And I only say this because I've done so, 1v1, quite a few times.

 

In the end, I think it really just comes down to how well a player knows their mech.  We say "equal skill," but rarely is there ever such a thing. Evenly matched, maybe - but with all the mech combos and choices available, I think it's a stretch to say there are many players with equal skill.

[Grizzled]

so, not top tier but I did much better when there was bloom. I don't have perfect accuracy at range, and my damage per second with sustained has dropped a little from the time when there was bloom, give me a little spread and I can get er in the ballpark. I rarely use the SMG or AR anymore, I just cant hold them on target. But the Point D? I can at least do a tiny bit of damage. 

 

Just the same, don't adjust their accuracy on the ground, in the air, I could see an adjustment.

 

Adjust their DPS by 1/2 or 1/4 percent a week and look at the kill stats each week to decide if they need more adjustment. Take polls from the community, and host competitions between each side of the debate at the top tier, then decide each week to go further or if the data says its balanced. 

[gArphEus]

Want 2 point out this issue from another perspective, if u allow...

 

Ever shot a sustained rifle in real life on some bottles in the backyard??? I'm sure many of us did at least 1 time. Would u agree with me? - Once u r familliar with the trajectory it's pretty easy 2 hit your target as long as it is placed within the effective range, no doubt. Now imagine u would hover a few metres above in the air, driven by backpack thrusters, trying 2 hardly keep balance and position while shooting at the same target - lol... i'm sure no1 of us would hit it anymore decently, regardless of ur aiming skills.

 

Conclusion? It's simply unrealistic being able 2 hit targets beyond short range, even with hitscan weaponry (that doesn't exist, anyway), even in a mech full of high tech because of the difficulties vertical hovering causes. Think of a british Harrier VTOL jump jet. Starting and landing such a bird r the most difficult actions the worlds best pilot's got 2 learn veeery carefully, even though supported by high tech flight computers. There's absolutely NO WAY of aiming ANYTHING decent while doing that, because it is hard 2 keep the bird under control, anyway. Some small amount of random movement inflight would b veeery realistic, and could fix the problem with the sustained hitscan weapons in a totally different way than these mentioned b4...

 

However, although this is a science fiction related game, it should b based mostly on realism, not totally! That's y i think, it's a pretty good idea 2 keep every stat of the sustained weapons as they r - as long as they r used on the ground only! But as soon as the mech goes skyrocket, there really SHOULD be SOMETHING, that raises the difficulty level of hitting enemies beyond short distance immensively. 4 an example changing the hitscan weapons 2 bullet weapons, with at least a slight trajectory, could b also worth a try. This said - ever played an Incinerator? With Baby Bear 1st, 4 sure. Easy 2 hit anything with it, because it's hitscan (that still doesn't exist...). Tried Mama Bear then? Result? - No more easy, but realistic. Well, guess u got what i meant...

 

Just my 2 HCs about it...

 

Regards, gArphEus

[Darktim300]

No matter what the change will be people won't be fully happy with it. When they added an extra course correction to rockets, people complained. When they lowered burst damage people complained. When they upped sustain damage people complained. You will never have everyone happy with something. The higher sustain damage consequently has seen me dead a bunch more than when it didn't exist before. 

[This_Machine]

A-classes shouldn't have a ToW.
Armor values should be reworked.
"All" damage should be reduced by 30%.

[BIsmuthZornisse]

A-classes shouldn't have a ToW.
Armor values should be reworked.
"All" damage should be reduced by 30%.

Why should a-classes not have remotely detonatable missiles?

 

Both an armor value rework and a global damage decrease seems like overkill to me.