184 replies to this topic

[ThirdEyE]

What do you guys think about increasing spread and/or making damage falloff more drastic for certain weapons?  I feel like effective ranges have become too heavily skewed to mid-long range, which has only exacerbated defensive playstyles.

[Unisexpect]

Give Assault the stats from Fred and reduce fuel regen on the zerker.
my 0.2 cents worth of opinions.
Also first post!

[Fstroke]

What do you guys think about increasing spread and/or making damage falloff more drastic for certain weapons? I feel like effective ranges have become too heavily skewed to mid-long range, which has only exacerbated defensive playstyles.

The only weapons that could stand to have a range adjustment is the SMC and maybe the assault rifle. Everything else fits its niche well in my opinion.

[Fstroke]

I'm suggesting an overall sustain nerf, I'm not trying to nerf the vulcan into oblivion. Since 20% doesn't seem to bode well for some, and I admit it was a bit exaggerated, let's assume 10% which is a perfect starting point in my opinion. At 10% sustain dps nerf (applies to all of your suggested weapons besides t32) the vulcan will still be on top, as it should be.

I've used the heat cannon for more than a year in this game. It was my favorite weapon before the sustain nerf and it had a high skill high reward factor that many people admired. It is still in fact a powerful weapon, though underused because sustain has now taken the crown of low skill high reward.

An overall sustain Nerf is exactly what this game doesn't need. That would put us right back to the days where burst was king. Does everyone remember that meta?

The weapon values as they are now were a direct result of the feedback from the community and has served us well with one outlier in the SMC which promptly got balanced. But damage wasn't even it's issue, the effective range, low heat, high stability were its issue.

The only weapons that really standout from the pack damage wise are the Vulcan and miniflak. But you can't start comparing those weapons until you take into account their drawbacks. Highest heat gen and damage fall off in the game (PPA not withstanding).

Basically if you want to start changing weapons based on damage alone you are going to end up with the same problem you had before.

Edited by Fstroke, 05 May 2015 - 02:20 PM.

[Kopra]

I hardly see people complain about Vulcan, why? It has actual weaknesses. AR and SMC should have those, too.

[Silverfire]

 

ronburgundy.gif

 

 

[IareDave]

An overall sustain Nerf is exactly what this game doesn't need. That would put us right back to the days where burst was king. Does everyone remember that meta?
 

 

. When I - and a few others I know that share similar interests - say that we need a sustain nerf, I'm talking 10-20% less dps, enough to keep it on par with weapons you rarely see such as the EOC/heat, but not too much so that it completely nerfs it to oblivion like in previous builds.

 

Once again, I'm not proposing a gamebreaking change of epic proportions that changes the game of hawken into burstwarfare 2k11. There's a reason why zerker, assault, and incin are considered extremely powerful to most and why the high MMR players collectively agree scout isn't OP because players miss far less often at higher levels of play and burst requires significantly more skill to use to the same potential as sustain. This is coming from someone who has used the assault for 500+ hours and the heat for just as much throughout every single build except for the old alpha versions. Through that experience, observations made from the TPG competitive community, most of us can agree that it could use a slight nerf. 

 

EDIT: To further add, yes I agree with you on the fact that the game is in a much better place than it was before. I do not want to see the old burst meta. But there are subtle imbalances, and a few major concerns (looking at you orb build) that need to be done to balance the game further. Sustain isn't brokenly OP, but it's not in a perfect position either.

Edited by IareDave, 05 May 2015 - 04:20 PM.

[Fstroke]

Once again, I'm not proposing a gamebreaking change of epic proportions that changes the game of hawken into burstwarfare 2k11. There's a reason why zerker, assault, and incin are considered extremely powerful to most and why the high MMR players collectively agree scout isn't OP because players miss far less often at higher levels of play and burst requires significantly more skill to use to the same potential as sustain. This is coming from someone who has used the assault for 500+ hours and the heat for just as much throughout every single build except for the old alpha versions. Through that experience, observations made from the TPG competitive community, most of us can agree that it could use a slight nerf.

EDIT: To further add, yes I agree with you on the fact that the game is in a much better place than it was before. I do not want to see the old burst meta. But there are subtle imbalances, and a few major concerns (looking at you orb build) that need to be done to balance the game further. Sustain isn't brokenly OP, but it's not in a perfect position either.

Why is it that you think an across the board Nerf to sustain weapons is appropriate then?

The sustain weapons are supposed to win dps wise in an open fight as they cannot utilize cover. As it stands there are only 4 of them that do and 1 of them does just barely.

They also don't have the utility of heat cannon and the EOC. So my point is if sustain weapons need to be adjusted I don't think an across the board damage Nerf is the answer. I don't think adjusting the damage at all is the answer.

If anything I think they should re-introduce a bloom model. Bring back reduced stability while airborne. This will address air combat and range issues. Try and leave the Vulcan and mflak alone as they are barely competitive as it is despite their higher damage.

Also if having open field dps races is a problem in this meta I think that the underlying causes to many of this problems is a broken radar mechanic and the absurd amount of available HP. Address those things and many of these issues will be less of issues anymore. My hypothesis.

Edited by Fstroke, 05 May 2015 - 04:44 PM.

[Call_Me_Ishmael]

 

 

 

looking at you orb build

 

 

Narcissist.

[Nept]

If anything I think they should re-introduce a bloom model. Bring back reduced stability while airborne. This will address air combat and range issues.

 

Oh my christ, no.  These are far more terrible ideas than the a slight dps reduction.

Edited by Nept, 05 May 2015 - 05:29 PM.

[Fstroke]

Oh my christ, no. These are far more terrible ideas than the a slight dps reduction.

How?

[Nept]

Short version: Both mechanics introduce RNG and lower the effectiveness of skilled players.  Both mechanics are also very frustrating for the user.  Think of playing Morrowind (or any RPG where strikes are dependent on dice rolls and levels) and "missing" strikes not because of your aim, but because you got a bad dice roll.

 

Recoil is a much better option than bloom, but I don't think either mechanic has a place in Hawken.  Better to just reduce DPS in small increments and see what happens.

[Fstroke]

Short version: Both mechanics introduce RNG and lower the effectiveness of skilled players. Both mechanics are also very frustrating for the user. Think of playing Morrowind (or any RPG where strikes are dependent on dice rolls and levels) and "missing" strikes not because of your aim, but because you got a bad dice roll.

Recoil is a much better option than bloom, but I don't think either mechanic has a place in Hawken. Better to just reduce DPS in small increments and see what happens.

I knew you were going to say RNG. There is nothing that says it has to be RNG. Make it a pattern or "recoil" as you would call it.

[Amidatelion]

I knew you were going to say RNG. There is nothing that says it has to be RNG. Make it a pattern or "recoil" as you would call it.

 

 

Recoil is a much better option than bloom, but I don't think either mechanic has a place in Hawken.  Better to just reduce DPS in small increments and see what happens.

 

...

[Fstroke]

...

How useful

[Nept]

Ironic post is ironic.

 

*Edit*

 

Should add that you "knew [I] was going to say RNG" because bloom always entails RNG.  Which was kind of my point.  Recoil at least has a skill component associated with controlling gun rise.

Edited by Nept, 05 May 2015 - 08:28 PM.

[Kopra]

If we already have weapons that have spread (which is RNG), how is reintroducing bloom any more different? At closer ranges the damage would be unaffected, although you'd have to hit more in the middle (skill compensating for bloom) while at longer ranges you wouldn't have a constant "lightning gun" on a target. This is already how Vulcan, Flak and (at super long distances) SA Hawkins work, as in, random factor from spread. As long as the player knows the spread pattern changes over time firing, the player can control how accurate the weapon is, which takes away from absolute randomness.

But since this is mostly about AR and SMC (possibly Hawkins as well), it would suck hard for the other already high spread weapons if there was a blanket bloom reintroduction, I figure Vulcan would see even less use unless bloom for weapons like it were minimal and higher for problematic "laser" weapons only. Another question is where is sustained's reliable high damage a problem; is it ok at close ranges with midranges being its too strong area compared to other weapons? Or is the close quarters DPS race snoozefest the problem?

Or maybe sustained isn't as much of a problem than its supporting weapon, the easy to use and powerful TOW rocket (and GL)? There's a sustained mech called the Bruiser and while it has the OP sustained weapons, the sucky Hellfires keep it at near the bottom for effectiviness. The problem being either TOW or its synergy with sustained weapons might weigh more than the actual sustained weapons themselves.

Edited by (KDR) Kopra, 06 May 2015 - 03:37 AM.

[Elite_is_salty]

An overall sustain Nerf is exactly what this game doesn't need. That would put us right back to the days where burst was king. Does everyone remember that meta?
 

 

Yeah, I do, it was awesome.

[Sp3ctrr]

Quite frankly I am disappointed that the HEAT and EOC don't auto home on the rocketeer. 

 

I didn't buy that thing to have to aim you know.

[Fstroke]

Ironic post is ironic.

*Edit*


Should add that you "knew was going to say RNG" because bloom [i]always entails RNG. Which was kind of my point. Recoil at least has a skill component associated with controlling gun rise.

Irony huh?

Bloom =/= Random

Bloom is spread and it's already present in this game. So to be more specific I guess I mean dynamic bloom. Which is not "always" random.

It's kind of unbelievable that ham handed blanket Nerf on an entire subset of weapons is being suggested without taking into account other stats.

[Nept]

I think it's kind of unbelievable that someone who's arguing against a slight sustained nerf would choose RNG bloom + mid-air inaccuracy as their balancing method of choice.

 

*Edit*

 

Would you mind explaining why you consider the aforementioned nerfs preferable to a slight DPS reduction? Because honest-to-god, I would rather see no nerfs than the ones you suggested.  OR MAYBE THAT WAS YOUR PLAN ALL ALONG.

Edited by Nept, 06 May 2015 - 02:47 AM.

[LarryLaffer]

I would actually like to have some statistics such as win/lose rates on certain mechs with certain weapons in form of graphs or tables before making some changes. A subjective opinion is always a subjective opinion, and we need some objective data in order to make right decisions.

Also it would be nice to make a possibility to tweak each mech independently.

[coldform]

If the heat generation of sustained weapons was increased slightly, wouldn't that lower the effective DPS of these weapons? Don't punish good aim, for corn sakes...
Bloom/recoil/wandering are are bad ideas for balance.

[FRX23]

dont nerf just givem mo'heat

 

I'm playing Hawken for the sustained gameplay. it's a mech game you know...

It make this FPS unique not that COD '2shots' or APB 'peekaboo' styles.

 

And about the skilled players, as far as i see on EU servers, they are still using scout, predator, raider or sharpshooter.

Edited by FRX23, 06 May 2015 - 08:43 AM.

[Fstroke]

If the heat generation of sustained weapons was increased slightly, wouldn't that lower the effective DPS of these weapons? Don't punish good aim, for corn sakes...
Bloom/recoil/wandering are are bad ideas for balance.

What's getting lost here is that the bloom and recoil stuff is all a little toungue in cheek as it is unpopular. For some reason it's seems to really offend people which is kind of hilarious.

People want to lower the damage of all sustained weapons because of their ease of use. Lowering their damage just makes them less effective and does nothing to change weapons. Making weapons weak and non competitive because they are easier to use than others is also a terrible idea for balance.

Calling for a blanket 5-10% is borderline absurd. What does an SA Hawkins need a 5% Nerf for?

I wish I could find the patch notes because when sustained weapons were originally buffed it was somewhere between 3-5% depending on the weapon. Can't remember exactly. So a 5-10% damage ner is a little uncalled for.

[ThirdEyE]

People want to lower the damage of all sustained weapons because of their ease of use. Lowering their damage just makes them less effective and does nothing to change weapons. Making weapons weak and non competitive because they are easier to use than others is also a terrible idea for balance.

Calling for a blanket 5-10% is borderline absurd. What does an SA Hawkins need a 5% Nerf for?

Isn't the point of any nerf to make the weapon less effective?  It's not like 5% damage reduction relegates sustained weapons from top tier meta to obsolescence, but bloom does have the potential to do that.  Easier weapons should have less overall damage potential, simple as that.

 

Btw the SA Hawkins is damn strong - low heat gen, long range, good accuracy, and ok dps (made up for by low falloff).

[IareDave]

What's getting lost here is that the bloom and recoil stuff is all a little toungue in cheek as it is unpopular. For some reason it's seems to really offend people which is kind of hilarious.

People want to lower the damage of all sustained weapons because of their ease of use. Lowering their damage just makes them less effective and does nothing to change weapons. Making weapons weak and non competitive because they are easier to use than others is also a terrible idea for balance.

Calling for a blanket 5-10% is borderline absurd. What does an SA Hawkins need a 5% Nerf for?

I wish I could find the patch notes because when sustained weapons were originally buffed it was somewhere between 3-5% depending on the weapon. Can't remember exactly. So a 5-10% damage ner is a little uncalled for.

I don't know how many times we have to explain it - we're not trying to stomp sustain into the Land of Uselessness we're trying to put them on equal footing of the much harder to use and less rewarding burst weapons. 

 

As to your last statement; I'm no spreadsheet addict so idk about the 3-5% buff you claim, but it was to my knowledge over the past few updates that sustain has enjoyed the pleasantrys of no spread in the air/reduced spread on the ground, large increase in DPS, faster mech speeds (making sustain more forgiving than burst), and indirectly I'd say this orb based defensive meta has gave sustain the upper edge. The only burst weapons that are long range iirc are sabot, slug, and charged heat. Both of which deal terrible DPS, while the other burst weapons such as flak, eoc,  and t32 require you to be significantly closer to the target with damage potential that isn't even up to par with the top sustain weapons. 

 

https://community.pl...tems/?hl=items 

[shosca]

I think i would rather reduce the armors of the berserker, assault and brawler to bring them more inline with the others. Maybe even both.

Edited by shosca, 06 May 2015 - 10:52 AM.

[FRX23]

Sustained is actually fine, back in the days it was underpowered.

 

Now, you 'pro/elite/ace/nasa pilots/whatever' can only stomp 2 for 1 when it usually was 4 for 1.

 

But as i said, how many of you really try to succeed in High ranked matches with sustained weaps ?

 

 

Damn pro lobby

[Fstroke]

I don't know how many times we have to explain it - we're not trying to stomp sustain into the Land of Uselessness we're trying to put them on equal footing of the much harder to use and less rewarding burst weapons.

As to your last statement; I'm no spreadsheet addict so idk about the 3-5% buff you claim, but it was to my knowledge over the past few updates that sustain has enjoyed the pleasantrys of no spread in the air/reduced spread on the ground, large increase in DPS, faster mech speeds (making sustain more forgiving than burst), and indirectly I'd say this orb based defensive meta has gave sustain the upper edge. The only burst weapons that are long range iirc are sabot, slug, and charged heat. Both of which deal terrible DPS, while the other burst weapons such as flak, eoc, and t32 require you to be significantly closer to the target with damage potential that isn't even up to par with the top sustain weapons.

https://community.pl...tems/?hl=items

You can stop being condescending now and debate like a normal person, the point you are trying to make is not complicated.

I believe you when you say you don't want to Nerf them into the ground, but you actually proposed a 20% Nerf across the board which would and here is why I say that. I did find the past data and it looks like the largest change for sustain buffs was 10% and those were the mini flak and Vulcan. Looks like the changes were anywhere from 3-10%

Then there were minor adjustments to some weapons that followed. Looks like the flak received two nerds since then and the HEAT one. All of this due to active feedback from the community. I don't remember your name from a year ago so I can go over the reasons for that if you don't know. Not being a pain I just don't know if you were around.

So what I am saying is that I don't need to guess if a 20% across the board Nerf will cripple sustain weapons, I know it will because they have never been so weak in this iteration of hawken. Even a 10% across the board Nerf would set us behind where we were before and return to a burst dominant meta.

If certain weapons need to be adjusted than it should be done on an individual basis.

[IareDave]

Sustained is actually fine, back in the days it was underpowered.

 

Now, you 'pro/elite/ace/nasa pilots/whatever' can only stomp 2 for 1 when it usually was 4 for 1.

 

But as i said, how many of you really try to succeed in High ranked matches with sustained weaps ?

 

 

Damn pro lobby

Do you have any idea what the meta even is at high ranked matches? Not trying to be rude here but you're questioning the effectiveness of sustain in high-tier lobbies which I never seen you in, and bringing up the past as if it has any relevance to it's current state; overpowered. To answer your question, sustain is the go-to pick in scrims. Assault, incin, and zerker are in most team compositions. 

 

You can stop being condescending now and debate like a normal person, the point you are trying to make is not complicated.

I believe you when you say you don't want to Nerf them into the ground, but you actually proposed a 20% Nerf across the board which would and here is why I say that. I did find the past data and it looks like the largest change for sustain buffs was 10% and those were the mini flak and Vulcan. Looks like the changes were anywhere from 3-10%

Then there were minor adjustments to some weapons that followed. Looks like the flak received two nerds since then and the HEAT one. All of this due to active feedback from the community. I don't remember your name from a year ago so I can go over the reasons for that if you don't know. Not being a pain I just don't know if you were around.

So what I am saying is that I don't need to guess if a 20% across the board Nerf will cripple sustain weapons, I know it will because they have never been so weak in this iteration of hawken. Even a 10% across the board Nerf would set us behind where we were before and return to a burst dominant meta.

If certain weapons need to be adjusted than it should be done on an individual basis.

I already said I exaggerated about the 20%. 10% would be a good starting point imo (and it was my part of my suggested nerf). 

 

Yes I was around. I've played this game for over two years and started back in beta when skill-trees were a thing. I used sustain back then but I knew the high-tier meta was strictly burst. That's an issue that was corrected, and the game is in a much better situation than it once was. But an old saying I often hear is 'if it ain't broke don't fix it', fuzzy bunny that. If it could be better then it might as well be considered broken. The fact is sustain is overused in high-tier lobbies and collectively agreed it's too potent. A 10% nerf is not even CLOSE to bringing the meta to burst-dominate, maybe 20% would be, and that's why I took that back a page or two ago. 

 

Let's just fuzzy bunny the numbers and look at the situation as a whole. I want it nerfed, I don't know the perfect starting point but I know it needs to be toned down and see how the meta shifts from there. 

[FRX23]

Do you have any idea what the meta even is at high ranked matches? Not trying to be rude here but you're questioning the effectiveness of sustain in high-tier lobbies which I never seen you in, and bringing up the past as if it has any relevance to it's current state; overpowered. To answer your question, sustain is the go-to pick in scrims. Assault, incin, and zerker are in most team compositions. 

 

Yeah i m not a pro and i only play on EU, but i know enough any of the 50 better players in this zone, to say they don't use sustained mech as main.

 

Then you talk about scrims which i dont know about but that i can imagine is a meeting of teamed good players, so 6vs6 and you talk about 3 mechs so what are the others ?

 

it's not because you are the better pilot in Hawken that you have innate perspicacity. Like mine your though may be biased by your own experience.

I'm sorry but i have to talk for the player base as no low player will probably discuss this here.

 

I don't want Hawken to be filled with air compressor scouts which would made the game a reskined Unreal Tournament.

 

I don't want this game to take this elitist direction further.

The lower TTK and faster gameplay took away enough of passionate players at Ascension update.

 

Respectfully,

[IareDave]

Yeah i m not a pro and i only play on EU, but i know enough any of the 50 better players in this zone, to say they don't use sustained mech as main.

 

Then you talk about scrims which i dont know about but that i can imagine is a meeting of teamed good players, so 6vs6 and you talk about 3 mechs so what are the others ?

 

it's not because you are the better pilot in Hawken that you have innate perspicacity. Like mine your though may be biased by your own experience.

I'm sorry but i have to talk for the player base as no low player will probably discuss this here.

 

I don't want Hawken to be filled with air compressor scouts which would made the game a reskined Unreal Tournament.

 

I don't want this game to take this elitist direction further.

The lower TTK and faster gameplay took away enough of passionate players at Ascension update.

 

Respectfully,

I've played against the EU community quite a few times and against your best players. Your meta is much different than ours. You enjoy burst weapons such as eoc/heat and despise AC, while NA is filled with sustain and orblords. We don't have problems dealing with AC because most of us don't use weapons that struggle against air targets and most of us are on the ground where we have more movement options + orb accessibility. Orblord is irrefutably the most dominant build in the entire game and it is easy mode against AC targets. What compliments orbbuild? turtling with sustain because it is effective on all ranges, deals solid dps, and requires little skill to use effectively. I want to play a game where player skill can turn situations that look dire and come out on top. I don't want a meta where you drop an orb and initiate the DPS race that is present in high level of play. 

[FRX23]

I've played against the EU community quite a few times and against your best players. Your meta is much different than ours. You enjoy burst weapons such as eoc/heat and despise AC, while NA is filled with sustain and orblords. We don't have problems dealing with AC because most of us don't use weapons that struggle against air targets and most of us are on the ground where we have more movement options + orb accessibility. Orblord is irrefutably the most dominant build in the entire game and it is easy mode against AC targets. What compliments orbbuild? turtling with sustain because it is effective on all ranges, deals solid dps, and requires little skill to use effectively. I want to play a game where player skill can turn situations that look dire and come out on top. I don't want a meta where you drop an orb and initiate the DPS race that is present in high level of play. 

 

I have to thank you for this lightening, now i know why sustained could be OP.

But it's not more an orb problem than a sustain dps one ?

[Xacius]

What's getting lost here is that the bloom and recoil stuff is all a little toungue in cheek as it is unpopular. For some reason it's seems to really offend people which is kind of hilarious.

People want to lower the damage of all sustained weapons because of their ease of use. Lowering their damage just makes them less effective and does nothing to change weapons. Making weapons weak and non competitive because they are easier to use than others is also a terrible idea for balance.
 

...

what? 

 

Lowering their damage makes them less effective, which changes the weapon.  You silly petunia. 

 

These weapons don't need to change drastically.  They just need a slight adjustment down, as they're a bit too powerful atm.  

Edited by Xacius, 06 May 2015 - 12:48 PM.

[Sp3ctrr]

Why nerf stuff...

 

When you can buff stuff!

 

 

 

No, seriously. If it's that much of an issue, just buff the mechs that are "under-powered" which imo don't exist.

[IareDave]

I have to thank you for this lightening, now i know why sustained could be OP.

But it's not more an orb problem than a sustain dps one ?

Orbs are a problem all on their own. Will nerfing orbs be sufficient enough to tone down sustain use/effectiveness? I can't say for sure that that adjustment would be enough, and I still stand by my original point. 

[Fstroke]

Why nerf stuff...

When you can buff stuff!




No, seriously. If it's that much of an issue, just buff the mechs that are "under-powered" which imo don't exist.

I think mostly because ttk is delicate right now and buffing things needs to be taken delicately.

[Fstroke]

...
what?

Lowering their damage makes them less effective, which changes the weapon. You silly petunia.

These weapons don't need to change drastically. They just need a slight adjustment down, as they're a bit too powerful atm.

Sorry I meant it doesn't change how you use them. Thought that was implied.

[TheButtSatisfier]

What compliments orbbuild? turtling with sustain because it is effective on all ranges, deals solid dps, and requires little skill to use effectively. 

 

This got me thinking a bit. Do you think that sustain would still need to be nerfed to the degree being discussed if orblording wasn't as viable as it currently is? Or do you think that sustain DPS is an stand-alone issue that is compounded by orblording? I ask because if it's the former then we don't need to be having a discussion about sustain DPS nerfs, we just need to address orblording.

 

Tangentially, what are your thoughts on making any action that repairs you also makes you generate heat? Such a change would mean sitting on an orb and pumping out damage isn't as viable as before - your offensive options narrow since you are balancing repair with heat generation. Then again, a technician's healing beam would become a heat applicator to troll your teammates with. Incinerators would be partially unaffected by this change since they can dump heat by right-clicking.

 

Maybe that reinforces the need for a larger discussion about those two classes with "game breaking" abilities which makes balancing a nightmare.

Edited by TheButtSatisfier, 06 May 2015 - 01:08 PM.