184 replies to this topic

[Rainbow_Sheep]

but last I checked, Scout was firmly seated on the OP throne

 

https://community.pl.../1844-scout-op/

[reVelske]

Alas, no amount of OP shenanigans will let you dodge through a wall, 'tis a pity.

[dorobo]

[Elite_is_salty]

Thanks for all the inputs so far, I hope the devs are reading this and looking at the ideas and opinions of all.

 

And back to my point:

 

-Sustained weapons make more dmg over time then burst

-Sustained weapons make dmg immediately compared to the likes of EOC and uncharged heat who can be dodged after sight

-Sustained weapons are very accurate and are way more effective than burst in suppression. In siege games for example, the team with the most sustained weapons mechs usually holds off the enemy from the point

-Sustained weapons have 0 disadvantages in medium and long range play and too little disadvantages in duels and close range battles because the air game covers it up.

-Sustained weapons do not cause self dmg like weapons like heat cannon does for example. If you play heat alpha strinking from close range in urgent cases almost as much dmg to yourself.

 

All of this is amplified by the speed and mobility of the assault and zerker, and their abilities, which increase dmg and shooting time respectively.

 

Also the zerker has the most health among A's, and the assault also has a good amount of health.

 

To put it in a simpler form, those mechs as the best overall mechs in a state where other mechs are no longer much better in certain aspects. All A classes are not even close. Scout and infil are among the weakest mechs in the game. Reaper is also in a bad state. And other B classes don't stand out too. The preds which is an awesome mech requires great skill to play, much more than the assault does.

 

So it may not be about the mechs being OP or not, but being less skill requiring.

 

I may not be correct in this but, assault and zerker are the most common A and B class mechs in the TPG. And boy are they deadly.

Edited by Elite, 05 May 2015 - 03:10 AM.

[reVelske]

You mean A and B class :3c

 

Also, Assault is common simply because it has been given away for free several times, it's just a slightly more durable CRT (not to mention how to recent freebie Assault is loaded) and just as wieldy for beginners.

 

If you want to simplify it down to being simply "less skill required", surely Rocketeer and Bruiser would be more fitting?

[Meraple]

If you want to simplify it down to being simply "less skill required", surely Rocketeer and Bruiser would be more fitting?

They require less skill for the same, or higher effectivity, which I'm pretty sure is the point here.

Neither of the Hellfire mechs fit in that category.

[Elite_is_salty]

You mean A and B class :3c

 

Also, Assault is common simply because it has been given away for free several times, it's just a slightly more durable CRT (not to mention how to recent freebie Assault is loaded) and just as wieldy for beginners.

 

If you want to simplify it down to being simply "less skill required", surely Rocketeer and Bruiser would be more fitting?

 

Edited

 

And I don't play in 2000- servers so new players using the free mechs don't count. I'm talking about high tier play and comp play which I might have experience few times ...

 

Also, yes I hate rocketeer but it's unfortunately for me not everyone thinks the mech needs change. Bruiser is to me isn't as annoying as the rocketeers but eh ...

[Silent_]

Main problem is how open most maps are, nerfing effectiveness of burst weapons. Since weapons like t32 have really short range, it is quite hard to use that burst effectively against decent players in open maps since in most maps being within effective range usually means fighting without cover. And because of the distances high dps of sustained weapons and usual fighting ranges, weapons like assault rifle can deal bit too easily more damage than short range burst weapon as long as the area isnt in favor of burst weapons.

 

Most ideal solution would be remaking maps with good balance of cover and open areas to not have any of the maps favor either one too much. While it could be argued that adding more cover would indirectly nerf SS, I disagree. Yes, it would be nerf against snipers sitting in one spot, but that necessarily isnt bad thing. I mained SS some time ago and found it most effective and enjoyable with semi-open maps where I could better sneak in damage without giving away my location.

 

However, since its unlikely for maps to see any changes, reducing dps of sustained weapons just by little would likely be good way to balance it. Also adding bit more range to really short range burst weapons could be considered.

 

Also, I would like to see bit more reward for using mechs / weapons that are harder to utilize. That reward doesnt necessarily need to be that great, but something that is much easier to use shouldnt be more effective. If something is hard to utilize properly, it shouldnt be as good as worse as something that does not require as much as skill to use. Risk vs reward, or reliability vs effectiveness.

[CrimsonKaim]

Elite's point is just the same as my complaint about the whole topic (if I understand everything right).

The problem isn't the dmg itself, but the ease of use and no disadvantage of using/shooting. 

Because the majority wishes sustained weapons to remain easy to use, Elite is suggesting a nerf in stats rather than in increasing the skill required.

 

I myself would prefare the return of bloom (especially while in mid air, this should apply for ALL weapons) but let's look at some scenarios:

 

Scenario 1:

 

Weapon inaccuracy (bloom) returns for every weapon while dodging and flying and when shooting too long. 

This would cause sustained weapons to be way more ineffective at surpressing wide areas. Additionally, we would not have AirCompressor snipers anymore due to the inaccuracy of weapons while flying.

 

Another result is that sustained weapons are forced to stop firing in order to archieve normal accuracy again and so be effective at long ranges (surpression and sustained sniping is no more effective, as already mentioned). So mechs using sustained weapons have to dodge behind covers to 'cool down' or to stop shooting for a short period of time, however, this will result in a huge disadvantage in a dogfight/battle/duel/whatever.

 

As a general result, sustained weapons would suffer in continous fire (surpression) and are forced, like every other mech, to cover themselves, take a breath and go back to battle after that.

 

 

Note: Sustained mechs are meant to sustain (as the name says) long fights, that doesn't mean that they should be able to sustain SEVERAL fights. A Scout/Infiltrator/EOC-Raider or any burst mech needs to outmanouver or dodge behind cover after every single shot while sustained mechs are never forced to seek for cover unless overheated which happens very very very rarely.

And shooting a sustaiend weapon comes with zero tradeoffs/disadvantages. Fire a burst weapon, you have a high cooldown/reload time or i ncase of the Flak-family you have only short range effectiveness. 

Sustaiend weapons are good at almost every range, have no reload time and almost no heat generation. (No tradeoffs)

 

Also: Assault is meant to fill every role abit. Currently it fills every role almost just as good as his specialized opponents. 

 

 

Scenario 2:

 

Bloom stays away and the flat accuracy remains. Instead, dps is nerfed and heat is increased. 

The current problems (or strategies as some would call them) would remain (sustained sniping, endless surpression, uber-open-field-fight potential, AC-Sniping) but would be so effective anymore.

 

This would cause every sustained mech to lose strength in every part. Assaults would suffer in close, mid and long range fights. But for that tardeoff, they have easy-to-use weapons (which justifies the low efficiency).

 

 

Note: At this point, Assaults would be nerfed in a straight way, rather than putting some strengths from one point to another.

 

 

 

 

So I would like to see scenario 1 happening, as the power of sustained weapons is not decreased but instead they are harder to use and prevent from this dumb equation LMB=Damage. 

Keep in mind that if you dodge a burst attack, you gained a serious advantage in a fight while dodging sustained weapons will just result in 0.5 seconds less damage.

 

Example:

1 Burst attack = 300 dmg. Dodge it properly and the attacker needs to reload its weapons for atleast one second (enough to recover the dodge timer). 

1 Sustaiend attack (1 second) = 100 dmg. Dodge it properly and you saved 50-80 dmg depending on how dumb your opponent's aim is. See the difference here?

[Vdragon]

Lol, nerf grenadier.

Edited by Vdragon, 05 May 2015 - 05:33 AM.

[Dawn_of_Ash]

 

If you want to simplify it down to being simply "less skill required", surely Rocketeer and Bruiser would be more fitting?

 

I greatly disagree. In low-tier, pub matches this might be the case, but the amount of DPS an Assualt can dish out greatly outweighs any Hellfire - which I think was your point rather than the mechs themselves. As far as the mechs go, well, the Assault has an ability which is quite powerful, is greatly armoured and doesn't require much skill. Why? Because I think that 50% of all FPS games have the same strategy as the Assault - charge and fire. Something that both easy and difficult FPS's do. Not to mention that it is too fast for it's armour. 

 

With Brusier, you have to predict enemy fire to use the ability to be used to it's best potential - not something the player can organize. As for Rocketeer's ability - well, just no, it wastes the C-Classes air mobility which is the best part of it. That and reducing you mobility as a far range mech, is a terrible idea. They use techniques that is relatively new and unique to Hawken - and I swear if anyone says that Seeker is just pointing your weapon "in the general direction" and shooting, well that might be the case on an open battlefield. There are not many of them. Add this with travel time + the warning for the Hellfires, and you 'ought to reconsider that statement.

 

Maybe for low tier games that Hellfires don't require skill, but in mid-high tier games there are a lot of skill required to use them. 

Edited by Dawn_of_Ash, 05 May 2015 - 05:37 AM.

[reVelske]

I was merely nitpicking his choice of words and lack of elaboration, not suggesting that rocket fatsos are in any way shape or form OP or deserving of nerf.

Edited by reVelske, 05 May 2015 - 05:51 AM.

[Benwizzle]

While im not a big fan of nerf this nerf that, I feel the beserker is a bit on the OP side. But I can manage.

[LaurenEmily]

I agree that sometimes Berserker seems a bit op.. Especially when they use air compressor efficiently >.<

[dorobo]

No doubt there's imbalance. Id like to see sustained weapons made into non hitscan.

[Epsilon_Knight]

Berserker could use a 30 HP nerf.  Sustain weapons are crippled by the corner game, but ignoring the fact that a wall completely changes the balance of power, they could take a 5% nerf, otherwise you risk making them unviable.  The exception being the SMC, it could use a solid 10% nerf.  The 10-20% nerf I saw suggested earlier would make sustain mechs unviable for virtually the entire population.

 

Take vulcan, take 20% of its damage off, keep its heat gen, keep its firing delay/spin-up time, and you would have one of the worst weapons in the game.

 

I recommend not a single sustain damage change until orblord is resolved. 

Edited by Epsilon_Knight, 05 May 2015 - 06:48 AM.

[crockrocket]

And why do you feel that the '1%' are incorrect? On a side note the word nerf is vague and means different things to different people. I think we can all agree that sustain isn't brokenly overpowered else you'd see a lot more threads from all skill levels complaining. When I - and a few others I know that share similar interests - say that we need a sustain nerf, I'm talking 10-20% less dps, enough to keep it on par with weapons you rarely see such as the EOC/heat, but not too much so that it completely nerfs it to oblivion like in previous builds.

I don't think the high tier is wrong per se, I just think that sustained is only OP at that level. Ergo a nerf would be catering to the high tier.

 

As long as it doesn't really affect gameplay I don't really care. 10-20% sounds steep, but then I haven't looked at the numbers. If that would keep sustained viable while improving the viability of other mechs, I guess I'm okay with that.

[Elite_is_salty]

I was merely nitpicking his choice of words and lack of elaboration, not suggesting that rocket fatsos are in any way shape or form OP or deserving of nerf.

 

Yeah I leave those for the likes of yourself.

[CraftyDus]

There's a lot of really well reasoned suggestions to be found here.

 

I think I see what everyone's getting at in their own way.

A PROGRESSIVE  damage system. For Balance!

 

What you all obviously want but aren't able to articulate is;

 

Tie weapon damage directly to mmr.

 

The higher the matchmaking rating of the player's skill the less damage the weapons deal.

So that players get better and better until they are so good that they can barely kill anything (It's perfect I know). 

[Call_Me_Ishmael]

Jesus, Dus, that was my sarcastic response that I deleted in the latest 'nerf scout pls' thread.

[LaurenEmily]

Tie weapon damage directly to mmr.

 

The higher the matchmaking rating of the player's skill the less damage the weapons deal.

So that players get better and better until they are so good that they can barely kill anything (It's perfect I know). 

I don't know how serious you are with this but i'm curious about how that would work out.

[CraftyDus]

Jesus, Dus, that was my sarcastic response that I deleted in the latest 'nerf scout pls' thread.

 

 

I don't know how serious you are with this but i'm curious about how that would work out.

 

 

It's glorious utopia where lesser Hawken players choke up and whisper when a player arrives in the server who can't kill anyone because they are so good.

 

Spoiler

[Call_Me_Ishmael]

How it would work: Weapons dispersal spread increases 1.5deg/10mmr over 2300, burst radius decreases 1m/100mmr over 2300, feathering falloff increases similarly.

The meta would shift to 'who can dance closest to 2300 without going over?' And when you meet a player the question isn't if he is a skrub but if he can afford to wreck you.

It's dumbing down so that no child is left behind.

I would not like this brave new world

Edited by Call_Me_Ishmael, 05 May 2015 - 08:27 AM.

[BaronSaturday]

That is the question.

OMG. I always thought your profile pic was a Yuke from final fantasy crystal chronicles. >.>

Totally off topic I know.

[Amidatelion]

OMG. I always thought your profile pic was a Yuke from final fantasy crystal chronicles. >.>

Totally off topic I know.

 

It... is?

[TangledMantis]

...Try not standing where their bullets are going...

Works well for me.

[BaronSaturday]

It... is?

http://img1.wikia.no...1/Ffcc_yuke.jpg

[Call_Me_Ishmael]

I've eaten lunch, and am feeling more charitable.


I'll summarize the recent debate:


"Skill OP, pls nerf"

[IareDave]

 

Take vulcan, take 20% of its damage off, keep its heat gen, keep its firing delay/spin-up time, and you would have one of the worst weapons in the game.

 

 

Even with a 20% nerf, the most drastic of my suggestions, it would put the dps of the vulcan at 96.8 (original is 121). That is still one of the highest dps's in the game, only being surpassed by the miniflak and comparatively deals 20 more dps than a heat uncharged. 

 

Ideally I think 10% is a good starting point, but I could see that value creeping up depending on how the meta shifts. 

Edited by IareDave, 05 May 2015 - 10:32 AM.

[Nept]

I'd say 20's probably overkill.  Maybe 5-10?

[Miscellaneous]

I say 12.5% nerf to vulcan, perhaps different for other sustained weapons.

 

But if anyone DARES lay the nerf hammer ANYWHERE NEAR my precious Predator, there's going to be blood.

 

Spoiler

For those of you that need this before you go out and start to rage, that was a metaphor, I won't stab anyone.

[Source_Mystic]

The only thing "no-brainer" about those suggestions is how little processing went into their creation.  

 

If all of those changes were to be applied, the Assault and Zerker would be nerfed into uselessness.  

 

We don't need RNG bloom to come back.  Reducing speed is also not a viable option.  

 

 

 

Honestly, the only thing that needs to happen on that list is a slight reduction to sustained weapon DPS.  

  The sustained  weapons are doing  consent hitscan damage. Where as all burst weapons have a higher heat dynamic as well as a  a cool down before you can fire them as well as the travel time  before you can make you next shot. Stands to reason there needs be some more balancing here turning up the heat  vulcan smg and assault .  I think balances out the system a bit.  Before you start screaming all I use is burst weapons no I use the mechs with these guns as well. I think turning up the heat generation  is a better option than effecting dps of sustained  weapons.

 

  The sheer length of time a sustained weapon can spam  is kind of long. at that I am only talking about these three not all of them. The others feel balanced to me.   I would  say turn up the heat leave dps the same. Even at that I would go with a light touch like shave a second or two off the time Vulcan can fire   and 2 or 3 seconds  off of smg and assault rifle. That would make people mange there heat better and would slightly effect dps . It would also make people make there sustained fire count instead of just spamming it for 17 seconds. Which would create gaps that burst fire could use. it would make the game better in my opinion.   I am all for sustained weapons being kinda spammy that is what sustained fire is but heat is much higher on burst and for the down time it really is not near balanced. So just turn up the heat on these three weapons leave the dps the same that is my vote. There may need to be more than what I said but i would just make small adjustments untill it  feels right   instead dropping of nerf hammer and causing more imbalance than you fix.

Edited by Source_Mystic, 05 May 2015 - 10:56 AM.

[Amidatelion]

http://img1.wikia.no...1/Ffcc_yuke.jpg

 

No, I mean, it is and the question mark was why this was news.

 

http://img4.wikia.no...amidatelion.jpg

 

http://finalfantasy....iki/Amidatelion

Edited by Amidatelion, 05 May 2015 - 10:33 AM.

[BaronSaturday]

No, I mean, it is and the question mark was why this was news.

http://img4.wikia.no...amidatelion.jpg

http://finalfantasy....iki/Amidatelion

I guess it's not news. I immediately recognized it, but it's abstract so I thought I was wrong when I inspected it.

I'm quite partial to the diminutive gourd like Lilties myself. Mostly because they were able to remain a dominate force wherever they were for so long. And they're cute as fuzzy bunny.

[Epsilon_Knight]

Even with a 20% nerf, the most drastic of my suggestions, it would put the dps of the vulcan at 96.8 (original is 121). That is still one of the highest dps's in the game, only being surpassed by the miniflak and comparatively deals 20 more dps than a heat uncharged. 

 

Ideally I think 10% is a good starting point, but I could see that value creeping up depending on how the meta shifts. 

If the salty stats are correct, that DPS (96.8) is actually surpassed also by the reflak, T-32, Hawkins RPR, BBY, PPA, and currently the SMC and AR.  Its damage fall off starts at 40m, 50% lower than the the reflak, and it has 70% of the reflak's spread.  Given the spin up time, especially after every forward boost, and heat, I contend that it would become a bad weapon. 

 

A laughably bad weapon can still get kills.  I've no doubt you could wreck me and 95% of the playerbase with the PN-223.  That doesn't make it a comparable choice to the alternatives.

 

I'd straight up rather have the miniflak in place of the vulcan.  That isn't going to cross maps like Last Eco (not that the vulcan does that well at all), but it'd carry a much better effectiveness post nerf.

Edited by Epsilon_Knight, 05 May 2015 - 11:11 AM.

[Dew]

Don't nerf the damage of the vulcan, that totally defeats the point of the weapon. Nerf its range and accuracy first...

[Aregon]

I say 12.5% nerf to vulcan, perhaps different for other sustained weapons.

 

But if anyone DARES lay the nerf hammer ANYWHERE NEAR my precious Predator, there's going to be blood.

 

Spoiler

For those of you that need this before you go out and start to rage, that was a metaphor, I won't stab anyone.

New in this update:

• Predator has been deleted. Sux 2 b u

[Miscellaneous]

 

New in this update:

• Predator has been deleted. Sux 2 b u

 

 

Also new in this update:

• Aregon's face has been removed with a bread knife. Sux 2 be u 

[Amidatelion]

 

Also new in this update:

• Aregon's face has been removed with a bread knife. Sux 2 be u 

 

 

ronburgundy.gif

[IareDave]

If the salty stats are correct, that DPS (96.8) is actually surpassed also by the reflak, T-32, Hawkins RPR, BBY, PPA, and currently the SMC and AR.  Its damage fall off starts at 40m, 50% lower than the the reflak, and it has 70% of the reflak's spread.  Given the spin up time, especially after every forward boost, and heat, I contend that it would become a bad weapon. 

 

I'm suggesting an overall sustain nerf, I'm not trying to nerf the vulcan into oblivion. Since 20% doesn't seem to bode well for some, and I admit it was a bit exaggerated, let's assume 10% which is a perfect starting point in my opinion. At 10% sustain dps nerf (applies to all of your suggested weapons besides t32) the vulcan will still be on top, as it should be. 

 

I've used the heat cannon for more than a year in this game. It was my favorite weapon before the sustain nerf and it had a high skill high reward factor that many people admired. It is still in fact a powerful weapon, though underused because sustain has now taken the crown of low skill high reward.