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Matchmaker Changes - I want feedback now

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#81
Draigun

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From what I've seen, because capnjosh removed the factor that prevented high MMR players from joining into a match, there are many instances that players are in a server that averages around 1700 to 1900 MMR; this is also further supported by the chart that proved most of the player base revolves around this MMR range.

 

Another noteworthy observation is the hindrance of accurate MMR calculation, especially for those who are roughly ~2300+ in MMR. Because we are placed in servers that are largely out of our fitness range, it wouldn't matter if we topped out score�it won't play nice with the fact that a 2500+ MMR player is in a 1700+ server. I would suspect the reason as to why is rooted in the fact that Adhesive never implemented a way to deal with outliers in the server. I could very well be wrong here however, since I don't have factual proof on how MMR is calculated word for word. Perhaps those who are in the high end of MMR can shed some light onto recent changes vs MMR calculation? From what I've seen, it seems to hinder true MMR calculation a step further.

 

It's cool that we can find matches now, and for all purposes, I think the benefits of the change outweigh the side effects. A step in the right direction no doubt, but there still needs to be a considerable revamp in matchmaking and the joining/autobalance process.


Edited by Draigun, 08 May 2015 - 01:10 PM.

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#82
StubbornPuppet

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More of the same today.  Almost every match is greyed out because of "fitness".  When I do find a match, I'm surprised to find a massive skill spread - saw one that was 1300 - 2600 - and the balancing isn't any good.

 

I'm usually around 2000 mmr.  I used to have pretty much my choice of any match available, and the usual mmr spread when I joined was 1700-2200.  3 star matches were a great skill match.  1 star matches usually had me near the top of the podium.  2 star matches generally found me at the bottom of the podium.  That seemed about right to me.  Now, I'm spending 10-15 minutes just refreshing the server list over and over before anything other than TDM with 11/12 players becomes available.

 

Something tells me that "error in code" that CapnJosh thinks he found was actually intentional.


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To be serious for a moment this is just a joke

 


#83
talon70

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I think players getting put in the larger and private servers should stop. A new person will get the wrong impression of the game.

 

I prefer to play with higher ranked players and be on the bottom of the score. I do not really want to be put in a server where I am the high mmr. And blow out wins are no fun at all for me.

 

I am all for trying to help newer players but at some point servers should be wide open. Right now it seems very restrictive.


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#84
Kuroken

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Using the Hawken Herokuapp it's pretty easy to guess which server you'll be put into based on game time remaining and the average MMR of the server through the matchmaker (it'll put you in the server with closest MMR to you). 

 

So far the MM is finding matches much quicker but the quality of those matches is generally poor in Asia-Oceania anyways because of the wide ping spread. Nobody wants to play with high ping and at this point with practically zero selection in the server browser there's not much choice.

 

I believe this results in players getting matchmaked into matches with high ping midway, with MMR that will skew the autobalance that will either leave right away or leave after the game is over. 

 

 

I think it might be reasonable to let players to join servers that have higher MMRs without restriction. I find the only way to improve is to play against better players. Conversely, higher MMR players typically shouldn't be joining much lower MMR servers



#85
n3onfx

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I think it might be reasonable to let players to join servers that have higher MMRs without restriction. I find the only way to improve is to play against better players. Conversely, higher MMR players typically shouldn't be joining much lower MMR servers

 

The possibility for low MMR players to join high MMR games is not dumb. Just make it only possible from the manual selection menu and with a warning.

 

I see a problem with it though, and it's that while the low MMR population usually has no issues finding a game it's not true for the higher MMR population. So a low MMR player joining a higher server causes at least 3 problems I see right away;

 

  •  It brings the average of the server down, potentially locking it out for someone who should have been able to join it.

 

  • It "steals" a spot from a high MMR player for whom it's maybe the only server he can join. Resulting in either that player not being able to play, or being dumped into a low MMR server and stomping everybody.

 

  • People will be pissed at those poor players if the MMR difference is too high and they will get abuse thrown at them since they'll only unbalance the match. It's one of the problems of having no lower limit.

 

edit: spelling is hard


Edited by n3onfx, 09 May 2015 - 02:41 AM.

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#86
MomOw

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I want a "vote to lock server" so that when the game is balanced you can avoid people connecting making uneven teams and ruining the fun.


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#87
BIsmuthZornisse

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 It brings the average of the server down, potentially locking it out for someone who should have been able to join it.

The new, low-mmr player should have a special flag, so that the mmr doesn't take it into account when recalculating server-mmr.

But i don't know what should happen if many such players join the same server, though.


I have a lot of ideas and would like some feedback on them:

Suggestions for fixing things:

https://community.pl...of-suggestions/

Suggestions for new things:

https://community.pl...for-new-things/


#88
gArphEus

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I want a "vote to lock server" so that when the game is balanced you can avoid people connecting making uneven teams and ruining the fun.

Though this sounds like a good idea the very 1st moment, u can't hinder any1 2 leave sudden, so imbalance will occur instantly again. It keeps others out, yes, but it'll keep no1 IN. Even if it just would "lock" the server when teams r even, the "lock" must b deactivated then 2 ALLOW further players 2 fill up the teams pairwise, until both teams r full again, so i can't c how that should work decent. But i like the idea of being able 2 have such an option. Just needs a bit of tuning, though... What about a filter with selectable parameters instead of a lock, 2 restrict access only 2 players outside a b4 voted MMR range? This would set INDIVIDUAL limits 4 each server. Can imagine a prob by 12 players acquiring them a server whole day 4 themselves only, though. Nah, that ain't easy... Or imagine a "vote 4 kick out player"-button. No moa noobstomping HEATScout veterans! ...hehehehe... Nah, such tools r no solution...

 

regards, gArphEus


Edited by gArphEus, 09 May 2015 - 05:05 AM.


#89
FRX23

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I want a "vote to lock server" so that when the game is balanced you can avoid people connecting making uneven teams and ruining the fun.

 

The solution is the FakeName' proposition :

 

https://community.pl...ent/#entry28336


 

1. Matches with uneven amount of players due to leaving and joining the match. (3v4s, etf.)

Solution: Abit like in Heroes and Generals, prevent the 4th player in the 4v3 match (the 4th player and the 4 head team) from spawning until a teammate dies. The teammate who just died is now in the waiting corner or whatever you wanna call it and is unable to spawn until another teammate dies.
Continue until we have a 4v4.

2. Leaving and joining (especially joining). The mm balances players at the beginning of a match. In the worst case, 5v4 with an even number of MMR points.
One player joins and it turns out to be a 5v5 but the one team has now more MMR than the other one (the difference is equal to the MMR of the player joined).

Solution: Refuse to start a match with uneven numbers of players. This will cause an even number of players witu an even number of mmr points.

 

I think we can wait sometimes for a whole quality game increase.


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#90
MomOw

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spectator mode when teams are uneven and being able to play other modes while queuing (and waiting for a server that match your skill) could also do it


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#91
Titanus

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i didnt read all the posts

 

but so far im have a lot of trouble getting into matches from the server board (mmr just at 2000)

 

i still find very lopsided matches, and its very frustrating when i join a new server and it starts filling up i watch as all the players that i know are really good go on the opposite team and about 80% of the time its a steamroll for them not even 5 mins in.  i will have the highest score on my team but every one on the other team will have a better score than me.

 

not sure what else you can do but right now these changes dont seem to have worked at least in my opinion



#92
MomOw

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Another thing about "MM" : when I join a lower skiller server the MM chooses the team so that I have to stomp, either to get the win or to keep my MMR as it is.

This is quite disturbing as when I join such server I'd rather tech and let the other people fight together and/or help the other people, and maybe trying to keep the score balanced if needed.

 

Is it possible not to compute MMR and other stats while in a lower server (no star?) as it is already the case for coop-TDM ?

 

Keeping the "no star" at MMR-300 is OK with a longer wating time and maybe a MM that you create new servers lobby instead of trying to throw you in an already started match.


Edited by MomOw, 10 May 2015 - 02:55 AM.

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#93
comic_sans

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I haven't been able to play a game on the east coast since this happened, and I was having very little luck before too.  I really miss the east/west split; central's not bad but I really dislike playing with a ping about 70 higher than I'm used to and I liked being able to turn that option off.


Edited by &THC& comic_sans, 10 May 2015 - 08:58 AM.

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#94
Lily_from_animove

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The question is whats worse?

 

No matches at all, or imbalanced distribution of MMR?

 

With the games current low population and the spreading of people to EU and US, you will have a quite hard time to find proper matchups at all. (especially in the lower populated MMR's like the top MMR's)

 

if the game had 4x the players, the entire Matchmaking would be much better. So what you get here is a trade off between not playing and playing unbalanced.

 

Maybe you can implement soem kind of "handicap" for people with too high MMR, so that the lower end of the rating has fun, while the upper one gets some more "challange", while it would in that state not change the higher rating players rank.

 

maybe handicaps like, less HP, less dmg, or no acticateable mods, less healing, whatever.

 

increasing the MMR range makes newbies having a harder time, which makes more people likely to leave while testing, which then increases the population issue a lot more.

 

 

and a sidenote: making a poll in the forum is a BAAAAD idea. Most players here are the veterans left, and you will from your population out there on the lower end (worse) receiving end not get a proper feedback.

 

 

Better would be an ingame poll that appears when a player leaves the game askign him:

 

We made some Matchmakig changes in the oast 2 weeks. Did you think the matches lately improved in quality?

 

Yes

No

I don't know


Edited by Lily_from_animove, 15 May 2015 - 05:54 AM.


#95
Draigun

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Yes, no doubt this game was developed with a rather large population in mind. Meteor Entertainment (the original and previous publisher) set too high of an expectation for Hawken, and consequently, the game currently fails under that model. Who knows, maybe Reloaded will shift perspective on what's been applied?

 

You offered a solution that could *possibly* satisfy 5 percent of the high end players via the handicap implementation, but even if the solution satisfies 35, 66, or even 98 percent, it wouldn't be one that's the preferred way of dealing with our low player base. In the long run, these type of changes could potentially damage Hawken's long-term life, since the solution punishes a certain player percentage, and disrupts the gameplay mechanics. Conversely, it's a solution, and like any other, it offers its benefits. I wouldn't mind a challenge, but to that degree? The idea of modifying any game mechanic to achieve an effect should be frowned upon, since it will dumb down the game. The gameplay has been balanced enough to an acceptable amount that it doesn't completely expunge the game's player base. The fact that the game has survived this long on this current balance is a testament to how gameplay mechanics don't necessarily affect Hawken negatively as much as we think. At least, at this point in time, it doesn't. We need to look elsewhere to achieve a more desirable effect at improving Hawken.

 

The veterans of the community had problems finding any match in the past, so in effect, they had to create smurfs in order to play the game. capnjosh introduced a change to the matchmaking logic that allows anyone to find any match, no matter what MMR you have, 100 percent of the time, within 90 seconds. I think it's a step in the right direction to solve matchmaking issues, while it also attempts to render smurfing useless. To a degree, it does, but this isn't enough to discourage the use of smurfing, since the matches they enter will likely be a significant gap in terms of the deviation of MMR values to their own. At this point, I think the developers have done all they can to eliminate smurfing. The rest is up to the player base and the community.

 

I'd say the matchmaking changes have indirectly improved the QOL (quality of life) for many. It still doesn't make sense that we can join any server when using the matchmaker, but are unable to manually via the server browser. Maybe the devs want to discourage use of the server browser�although doubtful, since the last thing they want to do is introduce a change that strongly encourages/discourages something. Striking a balance between pros and cons seem to be the approach Reloaded are taking things currently with Hawken.

 

On another note, I'm starting to wonder if these MMR restrictions are actually proving to be a hindrance to the game. MMR is designed to provide a method to balance skill levels across all fronts by utilizing the matchmaking/autobalance system. But yet, it doesn't benefit the entire population, since there is a large deviation of MMR values across the board in our player base. The current revision of the matchmaker now always finds a match within 90 seconds, by removing MMR restrictions; but yet, intelligently seeks an ideal match. I think allowing the ability to join any server manually would improve the game, but before that happens, there needs to be a revamp in the server browser. Since MMR is essentially publicly known by most, there should be attempts to offer a comprehensive guide regarding it to the lower tier who may not know about it, and how it's calculated, while avoiding specific technicalities that will complicate matters for the larger percentage of players. Or not, but I think many of us are embracing the knowledge of what we have regarding MMR and how we can improve it.

 

I'm almost positive the developers don't want to take this route though, since it essentially won't need to be implemented in the first place due to the ideal size of the player base. In addition, this may not be the Hawken they envision. Let me clarify though: we only suffer these faults due to a low population. The game has been suffering from it for the longest time, and has, consequently, divided the player base into tiers that effectively gives the perception of isolation to a good majority of players. An increase in the size of the player base will not immediately improve Hawken, but will over time.

 

Until an improvement in our population base is met: a redesign of the server browser that depends on factors affecting your match performance (ping, MMR ranges, average MMR, etc) while intuitively improves server specification, a removal of the MMR restrictions, but only for the server browser and the act of manually joining servers, and an introduction to MMR and what revolves around it to the players through the game. I think those changes would be a stepping-stone that will improve the QOL, match quality, and interest in Hawken. The game is already at a low player base, so gradual and/or light experimentation shouldn't be frowned upon so heavily. These type of changes are quite dramatic though, so a way of reverting them efficiently and smoothly as much as possible is also paramount to Hawken's improvement, and is just as important.


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#96
Jaroush80

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Bring back old matchmaker please. Many matches are now very unbalanced (I have MMR 1650 - 1700 and many times now I was in match with players with MMR 2300 - 2550). It really isn�t fun to play this matches. It is only frustration. For newbies now it must be a nightmare and many leaves from matches. New matchmaker will destroy completely this game.


Edited by Jaroush80, 22 May 2015 - 08:04 AM.


#97
StubbornPuppet

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I'm surprised it hasn't been rolled back already.


To be serious for a moment this is just a joke

 


#98
MomOw

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Maybe there should be a notice if you get thrown in a too high or too low server with the possibility not to join

+300 MMR is hard for a warm-up

-300 MMR can be boring if you don't want to roflstomp.

 

I'm always surprised about how much I have to stomp in a lower MMR sever, Maybe add also sort of "score"/"K/D ratio" challenge somewhere in the stats to get what should lead to MMR increase. And change the MMR computation so that you don't have to be the king when playing in a lower MMR server.


Edited by MomOw, 22 May 2015 - 11:01 PM.

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#99
Nightfirebolt

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I guess it's been a few weeks since the original post in this thread was made, but yesterday, this happened.

 

I'd say matchmaking still needs some work.


Edited by Nightfirebolt, 22 May 2015 - 11:49 PM.


#100
Hyginos

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This might be a bit of a necro, but I'm curious if anything discussed here is being considered or implemented now that RLD is in a position to actually do updates and patches.


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