99 replies to this topic

[capnjosh]

I found what I believe was a messed up configurable parameter value used by the Matchmaker.  Specifically, it prevented any sort of "fitness expansion" during matchmaker iterations.  This is why especially high-MMR players would get "failed to find a match... please try again" after waiting for 3 minutes.

 

I've changed a few things that should be a detectable improvement:

1. When you get into the matchmaker queue you should get a match within 30 seconds. No matter what.  And it should be in the server that's the closest to your MMR rating.

2. The Server Browser now has an acceptable MMR range of 300 (down from 500, but all the docs said 300).  This means if you have an 1800MMR you cannot manually join a server lower than 1500MMR via the Server Browser.  You can still get in those matches via the Matchmaker, but only if they are the "best available match".  I'm flexible on this, btw, but let's try it for a week or two.

 

What I'm expecting:

-I'm expecting heat on that +/-200MMR window

-I'm expecting the Matchmaker experience should drastically improve

-Medium-high MMR users may bear the brunt of high-MMR users, but, hey, you guys want the challenge, right? ;)

-I'm sort of expecting people to recommend extending the "fitness expansion" time so it's longer than 30 seconds (the time limit beyond which you will get stuffed into the best server available at the time).

-But if I'm really honest, I'm expecting to see world peace, a laptop for every child, and a car in every garage as a result of this change

 

Why did I make these changes rather than others that people have proposed:

I wanted to do something that did not require code changes or patches

I wanted to use the Matchmaker 2.5 features that allow certain parameters to be configured on fly

I wanted to attempt to further separate sub-1500MMR users from 1800+MMR users (there's a big skill difference there, and based on the population of at various MMR levels, this seemed a decent split)

 

Do I consider this solution to be perfect?

No, but it should be a little better.  We will iterate on this to improve things.

 

Now, I want to hear your experiences.  Let's make this thing even better.

[IareDave]

 

1. When you get into the matchmaker queue you should get a match within 30 seconds. No matter what.  And it should be in the server that's the closest to your MMR rating.

 

This is what I've been suggesting for ages. Thank you.

 

EDIT: It put me into a match quickly, but the first few matches had an SRD difference of 2000 MMR (950-3000) with an average of 1450 and 1650 on the fist two trys while a 1900-2000 was available. I eventually got into the 2k lobby but it took a few attempts. I'm assuming it was because of high traffic of people trying to get into those matches that it might of bumped me down to the next available room. 

Edited by IareDave, 05 May 2015 - 06:30 PM.

[Shadeness]

I found what I believe was a messed up configurable parameter value used by the Matchmaker.  Specifically, it prevented any sort of "fitness expansion" during matchmaker iterations.  This is why especially high-MMR players would get "failed to find a match... please try again" after waiting for 3 minutes.

 

The Server Browser now has an acceptable MMR range of 300 (down from 500, but all the docs said 300). 

 

...

 

-I'm expecting heat on that +/-200MMR window

 

Typo I think? You mention 300, but 200 later on (which is what you set).

Edited by Shadeness, 05 May 2015 - 06:23 PM.

[Silverfire]

Matchmaking doing its job interestingly

 

Spoiler

Edited by Silverfire, 05 May 2015 - 06:34 PM.

[Nept]

What I'm expecting:

-I'm expecting that SS396 is going to blow a gasket.

[GGGanjaMan]

Matchmaking doing its job interestingly

 

How is a difference of 1400 mmr between high & low with a standard deviation of 400+ mean it's doing its job? Unless you meant that sarcastically. If anything, this seems worse than before, lol.

[Dew]

My only beef with shrinking the MMR range of matches that can be joined in the server browser is that Quickmatching into a lobby will frequently put me in LA servers, where my ping is anywhere from 50-70 higher than it usually is in Ashburn or Dallas servers.

 

I'm unsure of a good way to handle this without being able to specify USE/USW/USC, but I also understand the importance of combining all the US servers into one region...

[capnjosh]

How is a difference of 1400 mmr between high & low with a standard deviation of 400+ mean it's doing its job? Unless you meant that sarcastically. If anything, this seems worse than before, lol.

 

At the time, this was literally the best match available.  Now, there *could* be some chance we could find a better order in which server announcements and/or client advertisements are processed; I'll be looking into that.  I think we will find better results by extending the time during which the matchmaker looks for the "best possible" matches, i.e. increase it from 30 seconds.

[capnjosh]

Typo I think? You mention 300, but 200 later on (which is what you set).

 

I had initially pushed it in at 200, but later after some discussion, it seemed kinda draconian, so I was going to set it to 300.  It should be 300 now.

[capnjosh]

This is what I've been suggesting for ages. Thank you.

 

EDIT: It put me into a match quickly, but the first few matches had an SRD difference of 2000 MMR (950-3000) with an average of 1450 and 1650 on the fist two trys while a 1900-2000 was available. I eventually got into the 2k lobby but it took a few attempts. I'm assuming it was because of high traffic of people trying to get into those matches that it might of bumped me down to the next available room. 

 

This situation where there his a high rate of people leaving/joining a match is one we need to keep a close eye on.  It could be that ultimately the best course of action is to just flat-out allow people to join any server they want to.  I'd rather not enable that until we can change up the client so people can see MMR ratings; and there's the lingering concern of high MMR people preying on the newbies (but would it happen as much as it does already?).

[ThirdEyE]

I kept getting put into low mmr matches (800-1000 below mine) or the 24man tdm on dallas.  Honestly I don't think the extra large servers should be involved with matchmaking, and the match finding time window should probably be lengthened to allow for better matchmaking.  I wouldn't mind waiting 3 minutes for a good game, since getting placed into a 1500 server just means I'm going to quit and try again.

[MomOw]

Well, quick feedback : now I have more servers unavailable so I'll go Bots TDM

[spinningchurro]

My hasty summary: fewer servers to choose from but the overall gameplay experience of  the available servers has improved considerably.

[Nept]

I kept getting put into low mmr matches (800-1000 below mine) or the 24man tdm on dallas.  Honestly I don't think the extra large servers should be involved with matchmaking . . .

 

I'd also like to see the non-standard server sizes removed from matchmaking.  Could permit players of any MMR to join them unimpeded, or could create a separate matchmaking queue for them.  Although they're fun in short doses, they promote fundamentally different gameplay and tend to wear on my patience after a map or two.  Not typically my first choice of server.

Edited by Nept, 06 May 2015 - 03:45 AM.

[CrimsonKaim]

If not already done: Disable the matchmaker from putting queued palyers in empty DM servers ... pwease ...

[Bergwein]

Well, I have not done any excessive testing, but my experience this morning was quite enjoyable:

 

I opened up the server browser and had all matches greyed out; zero stars.

Without knowing that these changes had been made I just went 'whatever' and chose 'Any Mode'.

And see: after a few seconds I got deployed into the match that was closest to my MMR. I was probably still a more experienced than most of the other pilots on the server, but this gave me the opportunity to play a mech that I'm not very good at. Or try something like battle-teching.

 

I like it so far. :)

[Hyginos]

Since it appears it will be much harder to join servers from the browser, I think we need more queuing options if this or similar iteration is to stay. I would like to be able to queue for 66 tick only, as well as filter larger servers and specific city's servers as mentioned previously.

 

On a side note I couldn't help but read the title like a bad commercial for one of those sketchy payday loan companies: "It's my feed back and I want it NOW! getfeedbackquick.com!".

[TangledMantis]

Sounds good. Might making finding servers a real pain sometimes but will probably be fine. (I stick to one region within Americas) 

 

Something I would really like to see though is the ability to allow high (or very low) MMR players allowed to connect to private servers or friends servers. 

 

I was in a private match with a bunch of west coast peoples yesterday and we were trying to get Merl to join us. He was in TS but couldnt join our server due to MMR. 

 

I dont care if your MMR is over 9000... if your friend gives you a password or sends in invite, the damn game should let you in. It was disspointing that you can rent a server and then the game rejects your friends that you want to have play iwth you.

[crockrocket]

In my opinion 300 is much to harsh for mmr locking. That's going to prevent a lot of friends from playing together. If the window was 300 when I started playing, I wouldn't still be playing.

Edited by crockrocket, 06 May 2015 - 07:38 AM.

[_incitatus]

Depending on when this change happened, this may have been why I couldn't find a single match via the server browser last night.  I also could not join on people I usually join on using the friends list.  I resorted to smurfing.

[Interrobang87]

SUGGESTION: create a new button in game next to "buy MC" that says "join us on the forums" so that less involved players can know about these changes too

[Loglino]

I want to join 2700 servers so just let me.

[CraftyDus]

I never use matchmaker unless I'm forced to for parties

 

 

relevant showtune

 

[BaronSaturday]

Also, has 6v6 been fixed yet?

[Broham78]

All usable servers blocked now and I can't play with anyone on my friends list. I don't use auto match since I have to stick to 66t Ashburn or Dallas servers unless I want to teleport everywhere and miss all my shots. Not happy about this.

[IareDave]

This situation where there his a high rate of people leaving/joining a match is one we need to keep a close eye on.  It could be that ultimately the best course of action is to just flat-out allow people to join any server they want to.  I'd rather not enable that until we can change up the client so people can see MMR ratings; and there's the lingering concern of high MMR people preying on the newbies (but would it happen as much as it does already?).

I've tested it a few times today and it worked amazing. You don't understand how relieving it is to join a match in less than a minute when I've been used to queuing a match and leaving to make something to eat or do something else with my time as it takes 5-10+ minutes to join a match - for the past 8+ months. I got placed into the highest rated lobby at the time and a few times it even created a lobby with me and 3 others who were also of a somewhat high mmr (2000+).

 

As to the imbalances of high mmr players joining a lower tier match that's already in play, well that's already been an issue present with smurfs. Fortunately, once the match is over, and the lobby fills up + no one leaves/joins mid-match, the balance will do a fantastic job. I think the best course of action would allow player swaps mid-match, preferably with those who are not in a party but if we could all vote on a specific player to switch mid-match it would do wonders for balance. 

[FRX23]

 

-Medium-high MMR users may bear the brunt of high-MMR users, but, hey, you guys want the challenge, right? ;)

 

Not really, the MMR seems to be negatively exponential.

 

I mean for example that the difference with a higher of 200 mmr equal the difference with a 400 lower

In other words, the +200 player is twice better than you are for the -200 one.

[BaronSaturday]

We have a problem in NA. All servers are empty except a single 24 player tdm. Is there no one on right now or is there a problem?

[(KDR) SethUK]

Please allow private servers to be able to remove MM totally. Its hard to organise community events when we have to join in order of MMR :(

[Morquedeas]

First impression: pure hatred.

 

I always use the server browser because I get terrible ping that makes playing unenjoyable on all but one of the server locations (LA).  My mmr isn't even that high (about 2000) and I'm only seeing 1 or 2 matches in the server browser.  I also don't really care for the matches with 14+ players, with the server browser I can avoid those matches.

 

Do what you will to the matchmaker, but please allow me to play through the server browser exclusively if I so choose.  Unless you can allow me to select LA servers only with the matchmaker, which would be a nice solution.

 

All this means for me is that I'll be sitting in the server browser for much longer looking for matches.

[Pumapaw]

No servers... Only a 24 men team DM which suck.

[Minutemech]

dupe post is duped.

Edited by Minutemech, 08 May 2015 - 04:57 AM.

[OmegaNull]

Can we make it so your section of NA is put into the match making. Hate being put into USW when I live in NY. Dallas servers are crap and hit reg sucks on them. 

[HeraldRedfordIII]

I don't know if anyone has already said this and its a bit off topic but thank you for picking up this game and working hard to improve it. I don't know if you get enough thanks but always remember even with every mistake we appreciate you.

[nokari]

I think due to the fewer numbers in the higher end of the MMR spectrum, it may be best to do a variable stepped MMR range for servers or allow lower MMR players to select an option of what range of MMR opponents (or servers) they're willing to play against.

 

Option 1:

1200-1500 MMR has 200+/- (max diff=1000-1700, min diff=1400-1300)

1501-1800 MMR has 100+/- (max diff=1401-1900, min diff=1601-1700)

1801-2100 MMR has 100+/- (max diff=1701-2200, min diff=1901-2000)

2101-2400 MMR has 200+/- (max diff=1901-2600, min diff=2301-2200)

2401+ MMR has 300+/- (max diff=2100-3000, min diff=2701-2700)

 

This gives the lowest and highest ends of the the MMR spectrum the greatest chance of access to games without having to make people schedule or wait for long periods and still be within a relatively good MMR range of players.

 

This also gives the highest portion of the population (1500-2100) tighter MMR ranges, and therefor more balanced matches.

 

Option 2:

On matchmaking, give the user 2 dropdowns for min/max MMR ranges. Allow the user to choose how balanced or challenging they want it.

As for preventing stomping on low MMR players by high MMR players, put a cap on the minimum MMR selection based on brackets (similar to Option 1).

Edited by nokari, 06 May 2015 - 09:40 PM.

[ArchMech]

josh you already said it

 

This situation where there his a high rate of people leaving/joining a match is one we need to keep a close eye on.  It could be that ultimately the best course of action is to just flat-out allow people to join any server they want to.  I'd rather not enable that until we can change up the client so people can see MMR ratings; and there's the lingering concern of high MMR people preying on the newbies (but would it happen as much as it does already?).

 

 

should've done EXACTLY that from the beginning

the matchmaker does a great job, if its meant to be COMPLETELY detrimental to the game and the match its only half making (since server browser and player base USUALLY end up making up the other half anyway) but LETS GO INTO WHY BECAUSE NONE OF YOU SEEM TO SEE WHAT IM SEEING, or rather i dont think its been covered enough *

 

lets not even go into how pointless fixing the 3min bug is, it would spit you out SOMEWHERE long be4 that, how many people exactly did that affect?

 

if we look at the MMR scale massively zoomed in to -/+ 100, it does its job quite well doesn't it?

 

the BIGGEST PROBLEM ISNT THE +/- 500 300 or even 200, it was what came AFTER that, +/- 500 300 and 200 all work (well maybe not 500 but I THOUGHT THE PREVIOUS DEVS ALREADY REDUCED IT TO 300*)

 

the problem is that after successfully min/maxing your matchmakers range (the thing EVERYBODY is focused on really), it got destroyed completely by leaving it open ended with a "best available" under the assumption that sumthing +/- 501 301 201 would be available AND THEN

*

AND THEN theres no telling who in that server is +/- 50(1+) on the opposite end of the spectrum of the player base, so now things are all screwy because sumhow a 950 mmr player and a 2999.99 player are in a room together "hugging" and things have hit the WORST POSSIBLE SCENARIO FOR A MATCHMAKING SYSTEM RUNNING A GAME because it can accomplish this with VERY FEW PLAYERS

(huh.....no alt numpad key code for bar9, whatever)

 

with that being said 24 person servers make that even more apparent by making it easier for the matchmaker to find a way to fudge the numbers using additional slots (this has been covered i saw from reading above but i would like to reiterate the importance of how apparent it is)

 

*

 

 

2. The Server Browser now has an acceptable MMR range of 300 (down from 500, but all the docs said 300).  This means if you have an 1800MMR you cannot manually join a server lower than 1500MMR via the Server Browser.  You can still get in those matches via the Matchmaker, but only if they are the "best available match".  I'm flexible on this, btw, but let's try it for a week or two.

 

i see it like this, you're options were only ever:

remove matchmaker, client patch with server statistics available ingame

this would work best and we already know it since THATS WHAT WAR WEDNESDAY IS, and its WHAT HAWKEN.HEROKUAPP.COM by Shadeness is FOR, also leave hawken.herokuapp.com intact so that you dont have to log into the game to see whats going on..... if it weren't for this and the ingame server browser just BEING there, WE WOULDN'T BE HERE

 

or

 

a +/- 3/2/100mmr hard lock, (that means if theres sumthing 101 +/- you don't get in, EVER)

and with something THAT draconian you might as well just play the part, put a troll face on, get yourself a cape, crown, staff, call yourself an emperur and take away server browser altogether ,

in hindsight i edited that to 200 and 300 hard lock so to make it sound less draconian, because in hindsight (again) 100mmr lock started sounding less and less draconian to me, ANYTHING (even 500 hard lock) that includes a hard lock would be preferable to best available HINDERANCE

 

*********

so heres the reason for the large text and the asterisks

1. im almost positive i remember ADH changing the range from 500 to 300 sometime be4 they scurried off

2. again it really hasn't been covered enough, the open ended "best available" kills everything, if ADH even did change the numbers from 500 to 300 it made no difference with that, it was more like 700 to 500, how flexible is the "best available" option anyway?

3. a quote from MexichanMan circa 2013, "Its all about Min/Maxing" in response to.....sumthing sumthing fuzz bunns mmo world of tanks sumthing sumthing important

4. o yea and FK match maker

Edited by ArchMech, 07 May 2015 - 12:33 AM.

[crockrocket]

(removed because I didn't understand what I was commenting on)
 

I tried to post this here earlier but got the wrong matchmaking thread. I was kinda raging when I wrote that originally, so sorry for the incoherence. This does convey my feelings about the matter adequately though.

 

This sucks, can't play with my west coast friends I could play with a week ago. Absolutely 1 fuzzy bunnyng million percent fuzzy bunny this new mmr locking. Mother fuzzy bunnyng fuzzy bunny. I hate this.

 

Edited by crockrocket, 07 May 2015 - 07:59 AM.

[ArchMech]

lol crocky i edited that post about 70 times

quoted OP

Edited by ArchMech, 07 May 2015 - 12:46 AM.

[09deathstroke]

Whatever about the mmr u wanna do u do it .

All i ask is to stop allowing high ping players from joining and messing the whole team up .

The balance that i had recently :-

Pings-

my team- 92 , 384 , 200

other team- 12 , 46 , 130

n even if we did started winning at the end some other guy with a 50-60 ping joins the other team 

making us outnumbered .

 

feel sooo angry i spent money on MC , coz this *** happens every day .

[gArphEus]

After i read this topic, i played a few hours 2day on EU (as every day), almost all gamemodes. Switched servers after every 2nd or 3rd match, just 2 c if game balance improves, but all i've seen was totally disappointing imbalance in every single match. There were only 2 matches that i've joined with an end score difference of 1 - 2 points, out of, let's say 20 matches alltogether, where the score difference was usually between 19 - 15 +. Winner team was always obviously superior in every manner, partially due 2 smurfs that stomped noobs all the way. Besides that, there wasn't many servers 2 join at all - most were either full, anyway, and the only accessible 1s were the bigga 1s (14 slots +), and on these, totally chaos ruled anyway. Means, i got schitspawned and instantly shot 2 pieces - rinse and repeat until end. Bye bye balance, bye bye good game. Had 2 confess, i was deeply frustrated about bad balancing issues b4, but now it feels, like it became even more worse. Dunno whatcha did 2 improve it, but i can tell u 1st hand, on EU it worked vice versa, and i wasn't the only 1 mentioning that. There were numerous others complaining about op enemies, unequal teams, smurf players, static team mixups not changing etc... Every match i joined, even if it was at the very beginning, felt like it's absolutely senseless 2 try 2 go on further, because the scores of my mates in comparison 2 those of the enemies soon showed clearly they have all less experience, skills, and possibly weaker equipped mechs than the majority of the enemy players, and there4 will loose badly. So it happened. Not only a few times, but so many times i am forced 2 say: ALL THE TIME. It's so ridiculous, it would b almost funny, if it wasn't so sad 2 loose repeatedly, regardless of my best effords. That happened yesterday too, so i asked some dudes among the enemy teams if it seemed that we simply suck actually, but they confirmed me, i was doing well, but not the rest of team. They said i cant carry a whole team of noobs 4 sure, so it's no wonda y we lost - just by bad balance. Just by bad balance! So it means just by bad luck??? But without the slightest chance of success not even the best game attracts me enough 2 keep on playing. I'm a really tenacious gamer, but If that issue doesn't get fixed soon, it will drive away many players, noobs as well as average players like me, even if u just keep it up 4 1 or 2 weeks only. I really hope, that awesome game evolves in2 the right direction, after all the hundreds hours of fun it gave 2 me. I really hope. Keep on the good work, CpnJosh.

 

regards, gArphEus