66 replies to this topic

[Nightfirebolt]

I was in a siege match the other day with a brand new player. It was his first day playing Hawken and first time playing siege ever. Normally I wouldn't be alarmed by this, except for the fact that we had a player on the opposing team who ranked in the global top 20 of the leaderboard, with an MMR of over 2600 (I'm not gonna name names, there's no point).

 

This should never happen. I don't pretend to understand how Hawken's matchmaking system works, but clearly something is very, very wrong. I had the second highest MMR on the server, and to be honest, it was bad enough that this newbie was in a server with ME, let alone this top-tier killing machine who dominated the match.

 

Long story short, we were consistently trashed, and I could tell that the new player was frustrated. Who knows if he's ever gonna come back.

 

As for how we can fix this, I'm not entirely sure. Maybe we should organize the servers in the way that Chivalry: Medieval Warfare does. They have servers specifically set aside for newbies that veteran players can't even access. They could be reserved for, say, pilot ranks 1-5, or 1-10.

 

I know, I know, smurfs could still get at them, but at least those smurfing players' main accounts wouldn't be able to mess up new players' experience with the game.

 

Thoughts?

Edited by Nightfirebolt, 22 May 2015 - 11:13 PM.

[Anichkov3]

+1 

[MomOw]

It reminds me something...

 

[Coboxite]

The real question is why was the new guy in a server with a minimum 2300MMR requirement?

[Merl61]

Yeah. I get into games with newbies all the time. It's not enjoyable for anyone really:(

[LaurenEmily]

It is terrible yeah. There is no way to play with beginners without feeling cheap & guilty about it. If i get in a game where i'm the highest ranked player i try to pick a mech that i'm terrible with, but even then it's not that great..

Edited by (KDR) LaurenEmily, 22 May 2015 - 11:47 PM.

[IareDave]

If that lobby was the highest available then the current system is working as intended. People seem to have the dilusion that there is a plethora of high mmr players on at the same exact time queuing for the same gamemode in the same region.

 

Unlikely.

[DerMax]

If that lobby was the highest available then the current system is working as intended.

Which is why the current system sucks. I'm tired of 12-player games with 11 competent players and 1 complete newb who happened to somehow find his way into the server, just to inadvertently ruin everyone's experience by dying 15+ times without killing anyone.

[WWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW]

I fully support this idea. There are simply too many experienced players for there to be any significant chance for new players to stick with Hawken and not get crushed frequently.

[IareDave]

Which is why the current system sucks. I'm tired of 12-player games with 11 competent players and 1 complete newb who happened to somehow find his way into the server, just to inadvertently ruin everyone's experience by dying 15+ times without killing anyone.

And prior to this system the top tier players who couldn't find a match would just smurf instead, resulting in even worse balance for both parties. I don't speak for mid-tierish MMRs who never had too much of an issue joining matches, but for the people who could never find a match to join manually to begin with this change has given us better balanced lobbies instead of just stuffing us with the lowest of low MMRs. 

[Nightfirebolt]

And prior to this system the top tier players who couldn't find a match would just smurf instead, resulting in even worse balance for both parties. I don't speak for mid-tierish MMRs who never had too much of an issue joining matches, but for the people who could never find a match to join manually to begin with this change has given us better balanced lobbies instead of just stuffing us with the lowest of low MMRs. 

 

Be that as it may, I still think that new players should never be up against the top 20 - or even the top 100 - under any circumstances. Once a new player has reached a certain pilot level perhaps let them mingle with the top tiers if that's what it takes to keep lobbies full and healthy, even if their MMR is low. By that point they've probably played enough of the game to keep coming back anyway.

 

But having new players stomped over and over again in their first week of playing - by people who have 2+ years of experience over them - is not going to help with player retention. That was my original (and only) point. Hence why I suggested adding servers reserved for newbies.

Edited by Nightfirebolt, 23 May 2015 - 01:03 AM.

[LaurenEmily]

There's been a suggestion before about a fixed mmr cap or whatever you wanna call it where the basic idea is to just simply not let players in the server when the mmr difference is too big. If this was implemented in the mmr ranges of 1000-1600 or something similar i think it would solve this issue. Anything above that would be free to mingle with each other more freely, yet still with the basic idea of trying to keep the servers as balanced as possible.

[Aregon]

I think that what would work could be to give players the warning that the server they are about to enter is way higher in skill than they currently are.

[Nov8tr]

OK why are there not 2600+ ONLY servers? Then they would have all the matches they want. Plenty of people there to play with and a hell of a lot more fair than fighting people who don't even have 1400 MMR!! The current MMR system sucks canal water. PLEASE make servers ONLY the high MMR players can play on. I know I and a ton of other people sure would appreciate it. Thank you.

 

This is what it feels like to new players................

 

 

The majority of new players do not like getting stomped on. Yes there are a literal handful who do. But most of those have come from games similar to this that have hardcore, fast, accurate combat. Those people don't stay in the low/mid MMR range long, MOST people do stay there or quit. Ask Josh about the numbers for how many quit and never come back. Or ask about how many we actually that are new and not duplicate accounts. There are a ton of alt accounts here. The numbers are not huge and they need to be for the game to survive and make Reloaded money. They are not here for shits and giggles peeps. Most of the really hardcore players amount to less than 25% of the people and most of those have been here a long time already. We NEED new people. Bottom line.

Edited by Nov8tr, 23 May 2015 - 03:18 AM.

[Sokram]

Dunno...This should be a toggle I think.  Want to play with high/low ranked players? Turn on "mix mmr" . Want to play in your tier - turn it off.

 

Coz I personally enjoy playing with high rankers. Such challenge.

[HHJFTRU]

Hi, folks,

rewriting....I try not to make it a TL;DR post. Probably failed.

About me:

Playing Hakken for 6 weeks. It's my first FPS since Doom II -> I'm not a teen nor a gamer.

But this game is incredibly fun so I play it.

Now I managed to attain a level where I'm not always a hindrance to my team when using easy-to-use hitscan+TOW mechs. On certain maps I'm starting to be viable with flak Brawler if the teams are sort of balanced.

 

Here are my 2HCs for this topic:

this game should be THE mech shooter game for all time and should be played by tens of thousands of casuals like me and by a few thousands of advanced players.

In order to achieve this, the game should be more welcoming to new players.

- Double HC/XP weekends are way to go as well as the starter promo codes.

- Test drive system should be improved (I like the idea of 2 mechs/week + 1 mech per day rotation).

- Offline training should be extended to all maps with adjustable bot levels.

- In-game tutorials would be desireable, especially for MA and SG.

- Something's wrong with the server browser as it happens sometime that there are no 3star servers in the browser and when I check herokuapp there are several servers for my MMR.

- +1 for Rookie servers! (max. MMR=1500 and max. pilot lvl=16)

- punish high MMR players for pubstomping (negative effect on MMR or implement a pubstomper rating)

- Code of Honor that lvl30 pilots must read and accept (after that initiation cutscene with fireworks, champagne n stuff). Everyone should understand that the term 'casual' is not something we put after an 'F' word but new players are the fuel for Hawken's success. The community is quite elitist.

- Matchmaking stinks. Why am I put together with 1900 and 2100MMR players? If 1 or 2 players that are 400+ above me appear (which is quite usual) then I will struggle for my team's survival with an Assault or Zerk instead of practicing with my newer mechs, otherwise I suck, big time.

 

Don't get me wrong, this was meant for constructive criticism. I appreciate all efforts of the devs and the community and I think that most of you are trying to be nice and fair and want to help Hawen to reach it's glory.

[BaronSaturday]

Hi, folks,
rewriting....I try not to make it a TL;DR post. Probably failed.
About me:
Playing Hakken for 6 weeks. It's my first FPS since Doom II -> I'm not a teen nor a gamer.
But this game is incredibly fun so I play it.
Now I managed to attain a level where I'm not always a hindrance to my team when using easy-to-use hitscan+TOW mechs. On certain maps I'm starting to be viable with flak Brawler if the teams are sort of balanced.

Here are my 2HCs for this topic:
this game should be THE mech shooter game for all time and should be played by tens of thousands of casuals like me and by a few thousands of advanced players.
In order to achieve this, the game should be more welcoming to new players.
- Double HC/XP weekends are way to go as well as the starter promo codes.
- Test drive system should be improved (I like the idea of 2 mechs/week + 1 mech per day rotation).
- Offline training should be extended to all maps with adjustable bot levels.
- In-game tutorials would be desireable, especially for MA and SG.
- Something's wrong with the server browser as it happens sometime that there are no 3star servers in the browser and when I check herokuapp there are several servers for my MMR.
- +1 for Rookie servers! (max. MMR=1500 and max. pilot lvl=16)
- punish high MMR players for pubstomping (negative effect on MMR or implement a pubstomper rating)
- Code of Honor that lvl30 pilots must read and accept (after that initiation cutscene with fireworks, champagne n stuff). Everyone should understand that the term 'casual' is not something we put after an 'F' word but new players are the fuel for Hawken's success. The community is quite elitist.
- Matchmaking stinks. Why am I put together with 1900 and 2100MMR players? If 1 or 2 players that are 400+ above me appear (which is quite usual) then I will struggle for my team's survival with an Assault or Zerk instead of practicing with my newer mechs, otherwise I suck, big time.

Don't get me wrong, this was meant for constructive criticism. I appreciate all efforts of the devs and the community and I think that most of you are trying to be nice and fair and want to help Hawen to reach it's glory.

I like what you're saying here. As for the Elitist community, yes. I can't disagree. The issue is that a lot of us (I'm guilty of this sometimes) have developed a sense of entitlement. The Dark Times made us bitter. We feel that this is our game. We know it well. We love it. We stuck around playing with a shadow looming over it. It's hard to explainthe feeling for some of us. I was heart broken when ADH went under. It was hard to play sometimes. My heart is in this game.

The game has been saved. Those that stuck around feel it was saved for us. But, in light of that, many of us do embrace the new blood.

Side note, my competitive background is extensive. Every clan, guild, alliance, blah blah blah has tested me in fire. Gitgud fast or be left behind. So I seek that out. I want to play with and against the best. It's hard to understand how people wouldn't want that. When the path to success is one paved in charcoal with people on the sides telling you that you aren't good enough... And through all the frustration, confusion, hard work, and tears you make it, the feeling is worth it all.

[MajyckToad]

be careful what you wish for, if you open up servers anything close to what they were pre-Steam. i'd say what we have right now is phenomenally better than what has been here.

i've chronically played in the 1400-1700 range since OB 2012, and as a Casual, recreational player am familiar with more-skilled players' venom and trash compounded with the lack of skill needed, when you're the talentless 1200-1300MMR wrecking a team's game. i didn't leave Hawken, but i wouldn't have blamed the possibly tens of thousands of noobs that have.

The Boot Camp/New Recruit servers idea above, is what is dearly needed. Anyone mechraping (upper-tier smurf, main, or just really good CoD immigrant, etc) and gets a suddenly high rate of climb on KDR gets kicked, and a server block for those servers for them as well as anyone with an arbitrarily high existing MMR. make the first hit a temp-block (NOT a game ban), let the admins decide if they get categorically kicked and flagged permanently.

[Call_Me_Ishmael]

Toad, it's simpler to just add 200 MMR for topping a low-range server.  Three matches, smurfstomper is back amongst peers.  The guy just good enough to do it against his peers will quickly lose a little of that 200 and be in the midrange/lower tiers, it's where he fits. 

 

I made a different post about this somewhere.

Edited by Call_Me_Ishmael, 23 May 2015 - 08:23 AM.

[JeffMagnum]

I'm not convinced that people in the top 20 are nearly as elitist as people here are making them out to be. There's a ton of banter between us that could look that way if you aren't familiar with who's talking and their skill levels, sure, but no one is abusive toward new players simply because they don't know how to play well. I try to be as helpful as possible if they're receptive to learning, and the only time I'll be a fuzzy bunny to one or grief them through selective killing is if they're being toxic to everyone.

[HorseHeadProphet]

The number of new players who play a few games, lose them all, and then never return to the game is quite high, according to what I heard Josh say in that interview yesterday. They (Reloaded and the Investors) have a lot of hard data that very clearly indicates this, and they want very much for that to change.

 

This turnover has to be fixed somehow, rookie servers might be a good idea. Make it so you have to check a box to only be placed in a certain skill-ranges. Low, mid, high, godlike. Smurfs are always going to be around but at least now, you can't say "oh well I just got put in here by matchmaker, I have no choice but to play here and stomp the crap out of everybody." Instead it'll be, 'no, you picked this class of server to play on.' For this to work, there would have to be bots to fill empty slots. Crank the AI and aiming up all the way for the bots on high tier servers. Put easy to kill bots in the lower tier servers, give the rookies the sense of satisfaction of winning matches, and up their skill at the same time, make them want to come back and play and tell their friends to play. 

 

Not the best solution I guess, but until we can clone up some more top-tier players, I can't think of a better one.

 

Maybe even make a different rate of HC earning for lower tier players. Or implement a 48 hour penalty free, one-time per mech or weapon return policy. Rookies save up and grind for a new mech that they think is 'better' and will give them more advantage. Then they find out that's not really the case, and now they are out all that HC they spent weeks earning. Cue rage-uninstall.

Edited by HorseHeadProphet, 23 May 2015 - 10:31 AM.

[Zuurkern]

Excellent suggestions HorseHeadProphet.

 

Usually I would just like your post but I have reached my quota of positive votes for today.

Apparently there's a limit to how supportive you can be in one day :p

[IareDave]

The number of new players who play a few games, lose them all, and then never return to the game is quite high, according to what I heard Josh say in that interview yesterday. They (Reloaded and the Investors) have a lot of hard data that very clearly indicates this, and they want very much for that to change.

 

This turnover has to be fixed somehow, rookie servers might be a good idea. Make it so you have to check a box to only be placed in a certain skill-ranges. Low, mid, high, godlike. Smurfs are always going to be around but at least now, you can't say "oh well I just got put in here by matchmaker, I have no choice but to play here and stomp the crap out of everybody." Instead it'll be, 'no, you picked this class of server to play on.' For this to work, there would have to be bots to fill empty slots. Crank the AI and aiming up all the way for the bots on high tier servers. Put easy to kill bots in the lower tier servers, give the rookies the sense of satisfaction of winning matches, and up their skill at the same time, make them want to come back and play and tell their friends to play. 

 

Not the best solution I guess, but until we can clone up some more top-tier players, I can't think of a better one.

 

Maybe even make a different rate of HC earning for lower tier players. Or implement a 48 hour penalty free, one-time per mech or weapon return policy. Rookies save up and grind for a new mech that they think is 'better' and will give them more advantage. Then they find out that's not really the case, and now they are out all that HC they spent weeks earning. Cue rage-uninstall.

Like it.

 

It's easy for people to jump on the anti high-skill bandwagon and blame them for our problems when the there are more factors involved here. One of the biggest issues, and seen at all levels of pub play are leavers/joiners. It's not atypical for a high skilled player and his team to deathball the opposing side forcing a few to leave and then that team is never able to pick up the pieces because half there team is leaving and rejoining for the entire match. AI Bots, scaled to the mmr of the opposing side could remedy this a bit and the game already has the AI to for the bots to run on it.

[n3onfx]

A 2300+ player being able to join servers at 1500 or less is a disaster. No matter how you look at it, it's a complete disaster for that round. I got put into one of these 1600~ servers this morning and decided to try it out, welp happens battle tech can go 24 - 0 in those lobbies.

 

I don't see how it could be fun for anyone in these situations, yes fighting against someone stronger is a good learning experience but when the difference is that big (and Hawken isn't a game you can learn in 2 days) nobody is learning. It only leads to frustration and people not giving the game the chance it deserves.

Edited by neon, 23 May 2015 - 12:30 PM.

[HHJFTRU]

Besides rookie servers I'd also  suggest 'Mech-Test drive' or 'Drunk piloting' servers.

With infinite TDM, no winning or losing, just playing without affecting KDA or MMR. Players could leave after 10 minutes without losing HC/XP (which they earn with a similar rate to as in BotsTDM).

This would allow happy test driving without worrying about ruining own/teammates' stats. I think it would also leave even less reason for smurfing.

[Nov8tr]

OK I am still trying to figure out what is so hard about:

A) servers for players under 1500 only

B) servers for players over 2600 only

Yes penalties for those who abuse their skill. Make special events for low levels, then ones for mid levels, and finally one for high levels. It will help create interest in staying, interest in playing. It will give the low players a "safe haven" to learn to play in. It will give the high MMR players who "can't find a match" a place to find a match. No more excuses. Then the only reason a 3000 player would be in a 1400 match was to bully. This does not seem hard or complicated. It seems to me it would solve so many problems including player retention.

[Disconnected_]

I think they might have a system of doing that. 

[thirtysix]

We've addressed the high and low, how bout the poor slob in the middle... the sub-1800 mmr player?

[Lioot]

I don't know how big of a problem this is in other regions, but for Asia-Oceania, new players will be matched against me or other top-tier players in that region (yes, I am kinda top tier)

 

As the OP said, something like Chivalry's match making system, which I really loved. Was a complete noob with other noobs :D

[kasei]

redacted

Edited by kasei, 25 May 2015 - 04:55 AM.

[Nov8tr]

Everyone has their skill limits. This is just a fact of life. It's how your body works. It involves a lot of things. Like eye/hand coordination. Adaptive ability. Even peripheral vision takes a part in your and your ability to react to it. Not everyone can be a 3000 player. I will never be a 3000 player. In fact chances are I'll never reach 2000 again. I'm old and other medical problems is my reason. I'm fine with that. I have fun and that's the bottom line for me. I play to have fun. I am not a "competitive" player interested in competition style gaming. Remember this all of you in the low or middle brackets. IT IS JUST A GAME. IT IS SUPPOSE TO BE ABOUT FUN. IT IS NOT A JOB! Just because you can't reach 2600 or whatever does not make you a "loser". People who say that are asshats. You might be able to build a server like I can. Or you can run a business and make money. Or you can work on cars and build engines. We all have our own talents. Do not take the game so serious. Life is way too short to do that. I am at the end of my life, I've learned a thing or two about what is important.

 

Nothing wrong with having goals. That is a good thing. Just because you fail the first time, don't give up. Try again. Learn what you are doing wrong and  ASK someone who can do it. A lot of people here will help you. Some will take the time to teach you. JUST DO THE BEST YOU CAN. That's all you can do really. Keep practicing and ask others for help. Don't be afraid to ask. Good luck and I hope to see all of you in game some day.

[CrimsonKaim]

That's an honor! I always enjoyed playing against the top because I could learn! But for the general public it shouldn't be like that ofcourse.
However, "we poor top players" have a hard time to even find one game with one star... What shall happen? :/

[Pastorius]

IareDave nailed the problem in his first post. The system is actually doing as it is supposed to right now as Josh made some adjustments to allow high MMR players into the highest level game available at the time of queuing. 

 

This was done because the higher tier players were/are stuck in queues for upwards of an hour waiting for a game.

 

(For those of you that are not aware, the server list is rendered useless to these players as their high MMR locks them out of them all so cueing is their only option. This, of-course means they have no control over what server they land in.)

 

The problem here is population. As IareDave says, there are simply not enough higher tier players queuing for the same game mode in HAWKEN at any one time. This is especially evident in the European servers.

 

We must remember that these top tier players are as much entitled to a good game of HAWKEN as everyone else and that it is simply not their fault that they are dropped into lower MMR servers. If this mechanic is changed again and these players are simply banned form servers then the bigger issue of smurfing and pub-stomping comes back to haunt us in a big way.   

 

As a clan with many of Europe's top tier players, this is a constant problem for us. 

 

As I have said time and time again, a lot of HAWKEN's issues regarding matchmaking are simply down to player population. The game cannot balance a match if it does not have the player base to work with. 

Edited by (KDR) Pastorius, 23 May 2015 - 11:37 PM.

[Nov8tr]

I completely understand and sympathize with the plight of the high tier people. As I stated above, let the ALL the high tier people above 2600 MMR play together.  There are enough people combined above 2600 for them to have server games to get into.  (Servers that are for MMR 2600+ ONLY) If that doesn't get them a server match then they use the automatch to get put into the highest server ABOVE 2000 to play in. They should NEVER at ANY time for ANY reason be in a server game below 2000. You do not ever allow 20% (estimate of course) of your game people to ruin the game for the other 80% of your game people. That is not only stupid it is extremely bad business. New people buy the packages, promos, skins and stuff because they don't own any of it yet. Run them off and they buy nothing. I am friends with a lot of the high MMR people as you know Pastorius including you, so I understand my friend. I have been here a long time but my MMR has dropped a lot so now I am in the mid range people so I remember what it was and what it is. I do not mean to offend anyone. I am just trying to come up with a way that can satisfy the largest group of people as best as it CAN be done. I hope people understand that.

[Meraple]

I personally think 2200+ only rooms for EU would be good - maybe even 2000+ only.

Putting the entry bar any higher will probably cause them to be fairly empty.

[Pastorius]

As I stated above, let the ALL the high tier people above 2600 MMR play together. There are enough people combined above 2600 for them to have server games to get into.

 
I'm sorry matey but there simply isn't. There are currently only 17 people in the whole population above 2600 only one of whom is in Europe.
 
Look HERE.
 
I think that it is entirely unreasonable to expect them all to coordinate themselves every time they want a game in order to get into one server at the same time.

As (KDR) Meraple says (being that one European at 17th) 2200+ or 2000+ maybe but even this would have it's downsides as we are seeing in Europe right now. A 2600 in a 2000 server can still be a stomp.

 

There is no easy fix for this and those fixes that are being suggested here, have to be very carefully considered as they could have unintentional knock on effects.

Edited by (KDR) Pastorius, 24 May 2015 - 01:56 AM.

[Meraple]

[snip]

I'm sure he had the best intentions, just not the knowledge of the low amount of 2600+ people.

Edited by (KDR) Meraple, 24 May 2015 - 01:54 AM.

[Nov8tr]

OK then I guess the only thing would be servers 2000+ to 3000 MMR. I realize that may seem harsh but there are over 800 people in that bracket currently. And as the population increases more people would be joining them. And I completely agree that the options for right now are limited until the population increases. If we run off the new players as is what is happening right NOW, there won't be any new population for them to play with relatively soon. And putting them in 2000 MMR and up is still better then them stomping people in the low servers as is happening right NOW. I know it's not a perfect solution and I realize it is not 100% fair to them but is is miles and miles better for the people under 2000 MMR and for the game overall in the long run. Even better in the nearby future. The more people stay, they more likely they are to reach high MMR. It is the best I can conceive under the current circumstances. It is the closest I can come to a "magic solution". I wish I had better.

 

*EDIT* Thanks Meraple. The sentiment is appreciated. Pastorius is my friend and I understand what he means. He was just being straight up about it. No hurt feelings :) Thank you. :D

Edited by Nov8tr, 24 May 2015 - 02:00 AM.

[Pastorius]

Oh yes, please don't get me wrong. I am not belittling anyone's opinions at all. Until recently, I was not aware just how difficult it is for you guys. That's why I am trying to explain here.

 

I am sorry if I came across abruptly Nov8tr, not my intention at all. I have a great deal of respect for you. 

 

Thanks Meraple :)

Edited by (KDR) Pastorius, 24 May 2015 - 02:13 AM.

[Kamile]

Pilot population is too thin for this. So the only time I can play Hawken is in War Wednesday scrims? Something I've personally been too shy to do. That's just unfair for me. I can hardly find a game as it is already when I'm stuck at only 2200-2300. I'm not even good at this game I've just been playing for 3 years. This makes me awfully sad. If I have to stop playing Hawken for new players I'll also have to quit streaming. All of this stinks.

 

~!~Reducing the servers back to 6v6 might help fit players into their appropriate MMR range. ~!~

JOSH DO THIS ALREADY OR I'LL NEVER FORGIVE YOU

Edited by Kamile, 24 May 2015 - 04:21 AM.