71 replies to this topic

[DerMax]

So, now any player can get into any game via Quickmatch. This means, if there are no better servers at the moment � which, oddly enough, is quite often the case � complete newbs can get into 2300+ matches.

 

This completely ruins the fun for us vets. Even one newb can destroy the balance. I have to babysit these goofs and deal with their not understanding the game mechanics on a constant basis. Here are some of their favorite things to do:

 

- dodge right in front of me as I'm about to shoot my secondary, to make me deal massive damage to myself

- wander off into the enemy team and die needlessly, a lot

- do something stupid > require my help to escape > do another stupid thing > die > put me at risk (often gravely)

- reveal my position followed by the enemy team one-shotting me

- bodyblock me from escaping the enemy fire

 

etc.

 

Playing with new players on your team is really tiring. But I have to, because we usually have only one high-mmr server going in EU in the evenings.

 

The funny thing is, the system was changed just for the select few � the mmrwhores who couldn't get into matches because of their inflated epeens. They could easily organize daily 2500+ matches or simply shed some mmr to have fun games � but alas, they persuaded the devs that this is a good idea, to let Top20� players into newb matches (=stomps) and newbs into vet matches (=babysitting).

 

I think this is not the best way to go about things. Discuss.

Edited by DerMax, 24 May 2015 - 12:46 PM.

[LEmental]

There should be teirs of matchmaking.  People level 30 shouldn't be playing with people who aren't level 30.

Spoiler

Unless they are a smurf

Edited by LEmental, 24 May 2015 - 12:53 PM.

[LaurenEmily]

Yes.

[Aregon]

Can I just say that there is a possibility the new ones don`t like it either?  

[Call_Me_Ishmael]

Der, I have to agree.

 

I was in a match with Jeff, Comic, others today, one of the Mayhem-sized servers.

There were 1250-level newbs just standing there watching the fireworks, and I had to kill them not knowing if they were actually skilled because I didn't have the time to watch to see.

 

Josh, seriously - can you rebuild the MM code?  if so - let's keep anyone 2000 MMR and higher out of a 1-star (below us) match.

Edited by Call_Me_Ishmael, 24 May 2015 - 01:13 PM.

[Str8Jacket223]

Only one way to fix it....Everyone over 2100 should probably just not play at all. XD

 

Matchmaking needs tweaking, but what we really need are more players of every skill to fill those gaps.

[n3onfx]

I think experienced players helping newer ones is a good thing, but just like in the case of a 2300+ player getting in ~1600 average servers and stomping everyone the current system is a disaster.

 

Newer players getting murdered over and over by just one guy on the other team don't learn anything, and newer players ending in a 2000+ average server don't learn anything either by just dying in seconds each time.

 

There's no middle ground and its a bad thing, the extremes that are happening right now should never happen. Why can't there be some tiers? Make servers in which the average is 2100 or above be available to anyone in that range or above. Make servers in which the average is 1600 or less be restricted to those 2200 or above. Having an MMR restriction system that behaves the same at low and high MMR doesn't work.

[Anichkov3]

I do not understand the meaning of the topic of the forum.

To get to the server without the stars could be up to any changes in the MM. Just now we need to wait for two times less time before joining the match.

Do you have problems with filling teams?

Say thank you to the people who play the "private parties" and join them.

As I have already tired of seeing similar this topic.

You have to start at least seeing how many players are in the game?

I shall prompt:

 

Players are very few. How many times you repeat it?

Developers have accelerated the start of the match. YES. Maybe you want to introduce strict differentiation in the level of MMR players? 

Then come back the good old days when the five of us quite simply played on a single server, because the rest of the world sleeps.

It would be better to demonstrate that you have that you are "humane person." 

If you believe that balance is disturbed to your benefit, then let one player on your team will stand at the base and will not play (or will not fire at the enemy).

No? Maybe the balance disturbed in favor of the enemy? Well, it is a challenge to your skills - demonstrate that you are able to transcend itself.

[Call_Me_Ishmael]

Anichkhov - I'd rather starve veterans of games than starve development of the game itself because there are no new paying customers.

[IareDave]

Sorry pumpkin, we have these high MMRs for a reason - and no, it's not for the reasons you think.

Besides your humorous jab at us top tier Muricans I do agree with the flawed system and I'm sure the devs are already well aware.

Edit: best solution is to allow mid-match player swapping imo.

Edited by IareDave, 24 May 2015 - 02:12 PM.

[EM1O]

yup. and watch your MMR slide like a drunken bobsled, too. the MMR calculating doo-hinky doesn't like you staying at your present MMR level while youre playing in noob-infested servers.

surprised hellouta me: -9 in one night, and that's down here in basement-tier.

i'm surprised there isn't more wailing.

:(

[Elite_is_salty]

Mhm. Earlier I was in a match in US server where there was 1300 players and 2600 players.

 

Though the noobs didn't complain.

[LaurenEmily]

 

surprised hellouta me: -9 in one night, and that's down here in basement-tier.

 

You mean you lost 9 mmr in one night ?

 

That's cute. Try 50 in about 3-5 matches. It doesn't even matter how well you score if a player 1000 points lower than you gets carried by their team and scores even a fraction of what you did. And it happens. a lot.

[Call_Me_Ishmael]

Lauren, I'm of the opinion that a swinger of +/- 35 a match is too much.

 

I'd rather it be the most you can lose is 3.5 - and the most you can gain is 200 (for topping a <2000 MMR server)...

[Amidatelion]

I am 90% certain this is satire.

[StubbornPuppet]

Remember, this is just as frustrating for the newbies and modestly skilled players as it is the high MMR players.

[LaurenEmily]

Lauren, I'm of the opinion that a swinger of +/- 35 a match is too much.

 

I'd rather it be the most you can lose is 3.5 - and the most you can gain is 200 (for topping a <2000 MMR server)...

Something like this would be nice indeed. I hate when you have to constantly do good to avoid the punishing that this current system likes to do a lot. Sometimes doing good is not the most fun way of playing.

[Call_Me_Ishmael]

Yeah, 'Try-hard'-ing can be not-fun.

[BaronSaturday]

So what you're saying is that people who think it's fun to play competitively shouldn't play at all because they worked hard to be as good as they are? No, seems legit.

Unfortunately, with the player count as low as it is, I was even having trouble finding matches at just over 2k mmr. And sometimes there isn't a Siege match at all for me to find and, frankly, TDM is a horid mess of lone-wolfers trying to get that screen shot at the end of the match.

Is this a good solution? No, but it's better than what we had.

[talon70]

Take that you mmrWhores. lol

[n3onfx]

If high MMR players can join very low MMR servers these low players will stop playing. From what some people told me today apparently some of the shitheads amongst the high MMR players on EU also partied together (3 of them) and stomped low servers. Do you think this is not problem?

 

Saying it drives new players away is not an opinion, it's a fact. Look at the latest data CaptnJosh posted and you'll see it's already happening.

[BaronSaturday]

If high MMR players can join very low MMR servers these low players will stop playing. From what some people told me today apparently some of the shitheads amongst the high MMR players on EU also partied together (3 of them) and stomped low servers. Do you think this is not problem?

Saying it drives new players away is not an opinion, it's a fact. Look at the latest data CaptnJosh posted and you'll see it's already happening.

I didn't say it wasn't a problem in case you missed that. It is a problem, but everyone deserves to play. I like the level 30 restriction. Not that it's representative of skill, but at least people have a clue.

Also, people need to have some damned resolve. Just saying. Do we really want WoW level mass appeal or do we want a focussed competitive experience?

[capnjosh]

Figured I'd chime in.  The new matchmaking changes have actually improved the new player experience, if anything.  That being said, it's very slight.  So, don't worry that the matchmaker changes ruining Hawken (the numbers don't back up that assertion).

 

However, what the recent matchmaker changes have proved is that we need to introduce intelligent changes made mid-match; and these changes need to be based on *actual* performance during the match, and especially acting when users are something over 2 times off the standard deviation of a number of stats.  The simplest such system that's already in place is the kick for being idle, incidentally.

 

In regards to what new players experience, they lose 3 out of 4 matches.  That's always been the case.  That cannot continue.  It's a big part of why Hawken halted.  New players lose because the winning team has a player who dominates (in the correct MMR bracket), resulting in winning teams having double the losing team's kill spread.  The problem here is an inability for game servers to discover and act upon cases where there is gross mismatch between rating and actual performance.  The matchmaker system, being outside of this, is actually not too bad.  The game servers need to have expanded systems.

 

Now, I'd like to know what you guys think of how the private servers are not included in the matchmaker placements.  That, and how they ignore MMR.   Have you seen better matches that way, or do you think the Matchmaker is required to fill servers?

[HorseHeadProphet]

Uh yeah it looks like the uproar is getting quite loud for devs to, I dunno, take control of their servers or something. Enabling the top-tier players to enter matches and get in games without waiting in an hour queue is good. At the expense of them being able to headstomp servers full of nubs? No.

 

I know how large the playerbase is. At many points during the day, there simply are no appealing server browser options, (we got no bots in servers, there may be 1 or 2 options to get in any populated server, lame gametype, mayhem server in LA) and so, people enter the queue, and since now there are basically no rules, players of almost all skill levels get placed wherever now. 

 

Wonderful

 

Glad I am not the only one who thinks this is an area of concern. I love and respect our highest tier godlike players. To me it's almost like watching a chess master. But the game needs a mass influx of steady players, (whom are likely to peak out at about 1850 mmr, if that.) before we are ever going to see the things we want, like new game modes (I want some massive scale warfare type stuff) new mechs, big maps, etc. 

 

All it takes (and all it should take) for a business venture to be shut down is for it to not be profitable anymore.

 

And I think what happens on private servers stays on private servers. No HC, no XP. me and my friends could sit there on a server and just shoot each other in the face all day, and buy new mechs with all the killstreak HC we earn. They should be their own entity.

Edited by HorseHeadProphet, 24 May 2015 - 05:45 PM.

[Silverfire]

I find typically people who are in private servers mean to be there and won't leave, thus allowing for the in game auto balancer to do its job, which it usually does pretty well, meaning I do see better matches like that. Private servers are mostly used for clan functions, events like WW, or competitive team scrimming. And for that reason I appreciate the exclusion of private servers so that any randoms do stay out. For those servers that are not password restricted,

Just a note: Matchmaker is indeed handy, but the amount of folk who don't even know the server browser exists is quite silly. Both ought to be featured and accessed easily.


Another note: if I literally don't make any sense I apologize in advance, at the time of posting I'm more-than-scrambled in the brain, a little delirious if I might say so myself.

[IareDave]

Figured I'd chime in. The new matchmaking changes have actually improved the new player experience, if anything. That being said, it's very slight. So, don't worry that the matchmaker changes ruining Hawken (the numbers don't back up that assertion).

However, what the recent matchmaker changes have proved is that we need to introduce intelligent changes made mid-match; and these changes need to be based on *actual* performance during the match, and especially acting when users are something over 2 times off the standard deviation of a number of stats. The simplest such system that's already in place is the kick for being idle, incidentally.

In regards to what new players experience, they lose 3 out of 4 matches. That's always been the case. That cannot continue. It's a big part of why Hawken halted. New players lose because the winning team has a player who dominates (in the correct MMR bracket), resulting in winning teams having double the losing team's kill spread. The problem here is an inability for game servers to discover and act upon cases where there is gross mismatch between rating and actual performance. The matchmaker system, being outside of this, is actually not too bad. The game servers need to have expanded systems.

Now, I'd like to know what you guys think of how the private servers are not included in the matchmaker placements. That, and how they ignore MMR. Have you seen better matches that way, or do you think the Matchmaker is required to fill servers?

Matchmaker works when the lobby is filled and no one leaves and rejoins. The matchmaker does not work when it starts without a full lobby and people are constantly rejoining. It's that simple, from a non technical perspective at least.

There needs to be an option to swap players or move people over mid Match. Maybe have the system pick the best target for the switch and give them a nice little bonus at the end for being a good sport. I know personally I would gladly switch if it means creating a more balanced game where I have to actually try and I know many top players feel the same way.

[thirtysix]

Would it be possible to show a server/match mmr in the server browser and possibly time left/current score. Jumping in blind is such a drag :(

[System64]

Yes, the manual server browser is often ignored, @Silverfire. That is another problem with matchmaking, if there was a way of informing people that they can manually select and join servers, that might result in more people joining matches that are suited to them based on their skill and experience.

[Nov8tr]

I agree Silverfire. In fact I would LOVE to see the server-browser built INTO the game. Press a function key or button in the lobby and there it is. It would allow more intelligent choices in joining a server. Since the code already exist it should not be that hard to add to the game functions. Then you not only know what MMR you are going up against but even who. (well who for the most part) It is not a be all end all solution by any means but it does allow those who want to have more information before joining a match to be at to do so without doing the old ALT/TAB. Hey just my two old pennies worth. Your mileage may vary.

 

Yes there are also several things that need added to the trainer program for new people. Make it MANDATORY so that they CAN NOT bypass it. Add what MMR is and how to find yours. (add server-browser) to the game and show them what it means and how to use it. When you offer people more intelligent choices, they tend to make better choices. (again, well for the most part)

Edited by Nov8tr, 24 May 2015 - 07:37 PM.

[SatelliteJack]

Any system that puts me (MMR of 1750) in a match with Armored Klown (MMR of 4000) is clearly a flawed system.

[Call_Me_Ishmael]

AK is NOT that good.  I'd estimate him at about 2400, tops.

Edited by Call_Me_Ishmael, 24 May 2015 - 08:35 PM.

[Amidatelion]

AK is NOT that good.  I'd estimate him at about 2400, tops.

 

2400 in a scout, my level in everything else.

 

Source: me beating him in almost everything else.

[Nov8tr]

OK just played two games of siege, Equal number of players in first of pretty much equal skills and points. Match went back and forth. I scored well but in mid range on winning side. That was nice. One of the better balanced matches I've played in some time. OK now the next match is just a wee bit different. Surprisingly enough everyone stayed. No one left. Problem is it literally took ALL the highest scoring players and put them on one side. And the rest on the other side. Well it is easy to predict where this is going. Now can someone explain to me how "well" the matchmaking system is working. I'm sorry but well, I'd say it is broke to hell and back. First match fun for everyone. Second match was only fun for the side stomping crap out of everyone else. Sigh.........

[Nightfirebolt]

Mhm. Earlier I was in a match in US server where there was 1300 players and 2600 players.

 

Though the noobs didn't complain.

 

Just because they didn't complain doesn't mean they weren't frustrated.

 

Any system that puts me (MMR of 1750) in a match with Armored Klown (MMR of 4000) is clearly a flawed system.

 

There is no such thing as a player with 4000 MMR. The highest MMR at the time of this writing is 2960. Check for yourself.

 

 

The matchmaker system, being outside of this, is actually not too bad.  The game servers need to have expanded systems.

 

Yesterday, I was in a match where two very high MMR players (both in the top 125) were placed on the same team, whereas I was the highest ranking player on the other team (I'm about 350 on the leaderboard at present). Everyone else in the server was low MMR or outright noobs. I could take on one of the top-tier players if it was 1v1, but not both. As a result, our team got completely smashed.

 

I don't pretend to know how the matchmaker works, but something seems seriously wrong with this. This was not a case of mid-match joiners and leavers screwing up the balance - the matchmaker made the team balance like this right at the beginning of the match, after we all readied-up.

 

Something ain't right.

Edited by Nightfirebolt, 25 May 2015 - 12:38 AM.

[HHJFTRU]

> Do we really want WoW level mass appeal or do we want a focussed competitive experience?

 

Why not both? Just separate the two types of players, everyone will be happy.

Having mass of noobs may produce some ca$h. Some of them may become advanced players over time. Most of them (or in my position it is better to say us) won't. Should they/we play solitaire instead? Well if I found a mech-themed solitaire, maybe ... :o)

As long as we have fun in our sandboxes, why?

 

Here I can't resist to quote from a chat from the top-scoring guy after they lost a match yesterday, not because I think that you share the same attitude (readind your posts I'm sure that you don't) but just because it was hilarious - and sad at the same time:

"***ng noobtards, worst team ever, you should not be let close to any electronic device, including toasters..."

[DerMax]

 

> Do we really want WoW level mass appeal or do we want a focussed competitive experience?

 

Why not both? Just separate the two types of players, everyone will be happy.

Having mass of noobs may produce some ca$h. Some of them may become advanced players over time. Most of them (or in my position it is better to say us) won't. Should they/we play solitaire instead? Well if I found a mech-themed solitaire, maybe ... :o)

As long as we have fun in our sandboxes, why?

 

Here I can't resist to quote from a chat from the top-scoring guy after they lost a match yesterday, not because I think that you share the same attitude (readind your posts I'm sure that you don't) but just because it was hilarious - and sad at the same time:

"***ng noobtards, worst team ever, you should not be let close to any electronic device, including toasters..."

 

Hah. Well, I never lash out at new players, because I used to be one and because it is not their fault that they're put with vets into the same server. I just don't enjoy playing with them :P

 

But yeah, separating level 30 players from everyone else would be a good first step.

[MechFighter5e3bf9]

yeah kinda annoying that so few servers are available to higher mmr players but the new players can still join ours? its not constitutional

[SS396]

Matchmaker works when the lobby is filled and no one leaves and rejoins.

That isn't the Matchmaker, that is the autobalancer. There are two separate systems involved. Matchmaker places a player in a valid server, and the autobalancer trys to balance the teams at the start of the match. The major problem with the autobalancer since Josh made those changes is the spread of the lobby is way too high now, and I feel the balancer fails miserably. I've seen it place two 2500 players on the same team, and I know they weren't in a party, because one of them was streaming and the nearest mmr player was in the 2200's that it placed on the opposite team. Its my theory that the math the balancer uses can't handle the larger max and min in the current servers. Lately I have noticed the balancer not doing as good of a job as it used to. It has been my experience that the old numbers worked better than the new numbers from strictly an autobalancer point of view. I noticed a difference right away also, so I know Josh's changes had a major effect, the only difference now is theres a much larger spread between highest and lowest MMR in the servers, so I attribute that to the root cause of the difference I'm experiencing.
 

The matchmaker does not work when it starts without a full lobby and people are constantly rejoining. It's that simple, from a non technical perspective at least.

There needs to be an option to swap players or move people over mid Match. Maybe have the system pick the best target for the switch and give them a nice little bonus at the end for being a good sport. I know personally I would gladly switch if it means creating a more balanced game where I have to actually try and I know many top players feel the same way.

So, if the balancer does a great job at figuring out the teams when the lobby is full, then why not make the matchmaker prioritize servers that are waiting for players instead of an already in progress one? You've basically identified a few of the problems, but your solution is to create a completely new mechanic that rewards someone for getting moved around in the middle of the match? o.O      Personally I think thats a stupid idea to try and balance the game. You are just going to move the highest MMR player from the winning team, to the losing team, and then the losing team is going to catch up and win if theres time. All the mean time, the highest MMR player, gets most points, most kills, and now gets a bonus for being a good sport. lulz.

Why not,

• remove parties,
• lock a server once the match has started (full or a partial start just like it does now) so that players cannot leave or join.

Let the game finish how the autobalancer figured out how to balance the lobby in the first place. I guess the player could leave, but then it would cause the unfair man advantage, but then the match would be over faster than now anyways. I think the player that abandoned the team needs to have a harsher punishment in that sort of situation.

For you whiners about parties, place parties against other parties of the same size and composition or average. But do not allow two 2400's to party up, and join a match where theres nobody to oppose them like what currently is abused.

Also, make matches have a specific limit of MMR spread from highest to lowest and STOP USING THE AVERAGE MMR of the server for matchmaker calculations, if you are within the mmr ranges you are clear to enter.  This will fix this problem of a 1400's getting into a group of 2000s server and screwing up the work of the balancer while making it harder for the other players to carry them.
 

[MomOw]

Figured I'd chime in.  The new matchmaking changes have actually improved the new player experience, if anything.  That being said, it's very slight.  So, don't worry that the matchmaker changes ruining Hawken (the numbers don't back up that assertion).

 

However, what the recent matchmaker changes have proved is that we need to introduce intelligent changes made mid-match; and these changes need to be based on *actual* performance during the match, and especially acting when users are something over 2 times off the standard deviation of a number of stats.  The simplest such system that's already in place is the kick for being idle, incidentally.

 

Yes please ! Some of the issues the MM actually have :

- Add player making uneven teams when the match is balanced. Just don't do that !

- Add a better player without changing teams : for exemple you start playing 3 vs 4 in a match that could be balance due to players skill, the MM add a new skilled player to the team of 3 ruining the balance.

 

I think that either the MM should change the teams or maybe just ends the match and starting a new one (15 kills difference in a TDM).

 

 

 

 

In regards to what new players experience, they lose 3 out of 4 matches.  That's always been the case.  That cannot continue.  It's a big part of why Hawken halted.  New players lose because the winning team has a player who dominates (in the correct MMR bracket), resulting in winning teams having double the losing team's kill spread.  The problem here is an inability for game servers to discover and act upon cases where there is gross mismatch between rating and actual performance.  The matchmaker system, being outside of this, is actually not too bad.  The game servers need to have expanded systems.

 

Add server restricted for players below maybe 1500MMR and with something to deal with smurfs (when a player gets a K/D > 3 in these servers give him a reward and set its MMR above 1500 ?)

 

 

 

Now, I'd like to know what you guys think of how the private servers are not included in the matchmaker placements.  That, and how they ignore MMR.   Have you seen better matches that way, or do you think the Matchmaker is required to fill servers?

 

I'm really for a MM that fill servers, the only issue is how much you'll have to wait to play a TDM that should be at least a 3 vs 3.

Is it really complicated to queue while playing bot TDM (or DM) and getting some grind when the MM finds out a TDM to play ?

[HorseHeadProphet]

No balancing issues to see here, move along people, matchmaker and autobalancer are doing a fine job nothing to see.

 

Spoiler

 

This is not even the most egregious example I've seen by far. Forget the higher-mmr top scoring players. Look at the scores of the lowest scoring players on both sides.