26 replies to this topic

[Panzermanathod]

What if Hellfires could be dumbfired faster, but the homing aspect has a slower cooldown to compensate for slightly more damage. If Rocketeer does retain its turret mode it'll act similar to what it does now, having enhanced homing.

[TheFrostnessMonster]

No.

[Panzermanathod]

The detail displayed in your reply is magnificent! I could only dream of making such concise, well thought out replies.

[Bazookagofer]

I swear people if no one could balance the hellfires after so much time already only a revamp can put them in a good place.

[StubbornPuppet]

Hmm.  Maybe.  Since the Rocketeer is probably my favorite mech (overall), I might be bias.  However, it is so very true that the Rocketeer and Bruiser become practically obsolete in higher skill level matches... something should be done.  I've felt like the main way to make these two mechs more competitive without ruining their balance is to give the dumb-fired Hellfires a little more DPS and splash damage.  Also, since one of the last things that Adhesive did before dying was to seriously nerf the tracking on Hellfires (and Seekers) - they said, "We're going to start by drastically reducing the tracking on these to an overly low level so we can observe the change and then start adjusting them towards where we think their final state ought to be... but then never got back to making that adjustment.

 

My other thought was a more broad approach to addressing a problem with almost all of the C-Class mechs - the pointlessness of turret mode.  I feel that all C-Class mechs should have turret mode, but that it should not be their special ability.  For the Rocketeer, I felt that its special should be like 12 seconds (that's just long enough to lock on and fire twice, if you're quick) worth of a multi-target lock-on with a DPS boost.

 

There were some very productive conversations about this already in these two topics:

 

https://community.pl...es-need-a-buff/

 

https://community.pl...or-all-c-class/

[CrimsonKaim]

Dumbfire shooting for increased RoF only, yes. That's actually a good idea.

[Sigil_]

There is a Hellfire variant in the game files that I'd be interested in playing with: [R_Weap_HomingMissile_V3]. Once you lock-on and fire, the missiles will keep flying straight until you release the secondary trigger, which will cause the homing effect to kick in.

 

Giving a little more control over the trajectory the missiles take would make them more reliable and up the skill requirement for them a little.

[Flifang]

I think the biggest issue is how difficult it is to hit a set of dumbfires. Damage, splash, and rof increases are all nice but they mean nothing if you still can't hit with the damn things. I took a good 10 hours to use rocketeer using only dumbfires and even when you can hit them all the damage is lackluster for what you have to do to hit them. But we don't need more tradeoff we need ease of use with a better payoff in higher ranked matches. I think having a second mode that allows you to fire the missile pods separately would be cool. Add in increased travel speed and put the pods on separate cooldowns and make the damage of each pod as the same as half of a full hellfire burst.

[JackVandal]

Being the bruiser aficionado that i am, the hellfires are the weakest secondary in the game, by stats alone they are weak, hence their absence mostly at high tiers, but the auto lock makes them tricky at lower levels, so the best solution is to buff them at high skill, but not at lower ones, i think a slight dps boost could help, seeing that the missiles do minimal damage, even when they all hit, a good idea is the dumbfire travel speed increase, that would make the weapon more valid in high tiers due to the use in cqc.

Edited by JackVandal, 13 July 2015 - 12:20 PM.

[The_Silencer]

Yep, bringing the Bruiser in here as reminder it's good thing.. ;)

Edited by The_Silencer, 13 July 2015 - 01:36 PM.

[Kopra]

I've always thought that Hellfires should be the spammy secondary, spewing rockets all over the place like a mecha Rambo. Lock-on being only a utility, not the core function. Unlike something like a Saare Launcher, you'd be actually limited by heat and actually do less DPS even if you halved Hellfires' reload time (in fact I think in reality it'd be even lower than TOW, since you're not likely to get full damage on Hellfires because of the spread and low speed, among other things).

 

I'm not saying that you fix the HF by halving the reload time, but it needs something to use outside of its lock-on gimmick if it's to be taken seriously as a secondary.

[Meraple]

This may be an interesting revamp of the Hellfire/lock usage:

 

1. Lock-on changes:

- Lock-on is instantaneous

- Won't do anything unless your HF-rockets are already in the air

- Will only lock once per HF-salvo

- Slows HF velocity when activated to allow for better homing

- Increases HF spread upon activation to decrease maximum damage potential

(This last one is to encourage dumbfiring, while not completely removing the lock-on effectivity and less chance to entirely dodge it.)

 

2. Hellfire changes:

- Much tighter firing spread; slightly spreads out when locked

- Faster velocity; moderately slows down when locked

- Will only home in on targets locked on after firing

[6ixxer]

I'd like slightly faster lockon and better splash if they were the only changes being made. Dubfire into the ground near enemy becomes more effective and you don't lose quite so much time using locks that are bound to get stopped by a wall.

 

Other comments:

I like the idea of holding the right button to hold off the start of homing so you can skill arc them around obstacles. Turn radius just needs to be limited enough that you can't make them fly past a wall and then do a tight hairpin to land on an enemy. Less need for splash or lock time changes if you can land shots better.

 

As for quicker reload or partial salvos, I think it might be interesting if you were able to dumbfire individual (or pairs) hellfires at intervals during reload. Eg: after dumbfire, first hellfire available to dumbfire at time 'n' then additional hellfire(s) over time until you have a full salvo. If you alt-fire then it waits for a full reload, plus lockon time. So you get essentially a charged and uncharged secondary but you don't hold to charge it, it just manages via time.

if you spam duimbfire it will only fire partial salvos, unless you wait for a full reload or alt-fire.

 

They are just thoughts without intricacies of balance, so if you think they are bad, at lease try and explain what part(s) and why the current system or some other improvement would be better with reference to green vs experienced pilots.

 

As per StubbornPuppet I think Reloaded need to address the less than half done homing balance. And PN-223 *cough*

 

Cheers,

6ixxer

[Panzermanathod]

I, personally, do not want the DumbFires to be too "useful". Let's face it, Rocketeer *is* a long ranged mech. If it was a completely viable close/mid ranged weapon then it would disrupt the RocketeerFlow.

 

And the Rocketeer must flow.

[Hek_naw]

I've always thought that Hellfires should be the spammy secondary, spewing rockets all over the place like a mecha Rambo. Lock-on being only a utility, not the core function. Unlike something like a Saare Launcher, you'd be actually limited by heat and actually do less DPS even if you halved Hellfires' reload time (in fact I think in reality it'd be even lower than TOW, since you're not likely to get full damage on Hellfires because of the spread and low speed, among other things).

 

I'm not saying that you fix the HF by halving the reload time, but it needs something to use outside of its lock-on gimmick if it's to be taken seriously as a secondary.

Thinking outside the box! I've followed this thread waiting for someone to bring something like that up.

 

Imagine if dumbfiring meant firing each missile in succession, with a rapid ROF (say quicker than TOW), instead of all missiles at once? This would mean slower heat buildup, lower DPS in exchange for a very spammy, true area denial weapon.

 

If it allowed for dual dumbfire mode, where you held your secondary button to activate a full missile salvo, like it goes currently. Make reload times relative to each missile, so if you fire the full salvo, it will take longer to charge them all, but not if you want to spam single missiles.

 

All of this in addition to lock-on mode, of course. What do you guys think?

[HHJFTRU]

Thinking outside the box! I've followed this thread waiting for someone to bring something like that up.

 

Imagine if dumbfiring meant firing each missile in succession, with a rapid ROF (say quicker than TOW), instead of all missiles at once? This would mean slower heat buildup, lower DPS in exchange for a very spammy, true area denial weapon.

 

If it allowed for dual dumbfire mode, where you held your secondary button to activate a full missile salvo, like it goes currently. Make reload times relative to each missile, so if you fire the full salvo, it will take longer to charge them all, but not if you want to spam single missiles.

 

All of this in addition to lock-on mode, of course. What do you guys think?

I like the idea. One click on RMB = 1 missile dumbfired. Double click = full salvo ?

[Panzermanathod]

RapidDumbFires one at a time sounds line a neat idea.

[TheFrostnessMonster]

While an increased RoF would certainly help both the Bruiser and the Rocketeer, both mechs are very good in a fight (provided you know how to use them correctly).  I've been playing with my Bruiser A LOT lately, and been demolishing people with it, using both lock-ons and dumb-fires.  Its all in knowing when to shoot and when not to shoot, and when to fight and not to fight.  It takes practice.  Lots of it.

[StubbornPuppet]

Like in a lot of other games, when the "lock-on" button is pressed, it starts by very quickly locking on the first rocket, then the second, then the third... until the full battery is locked.  So, it might take 1 second to lock on one rocket, 1.75 seconds to lock on two, 2.25 seconds to lock on 3... etc.  Once you get all 6 Rockets locked, the overall DPS of each rocket gets a little buff to reward the player for patience and skill.

 

Whaddayathinkofthat?

Edited by StubbornPuppet, 14 July 2015 - 06:41 AM.

[Flifang]

Let's be realistic though. We're not talking being viable close range, because they kinda are. It's fairly simple after some practice to shoot some at around ground level at somebody next to you and with failsafes you really won't take much damage. You do need a surface to hit with the hellfires but as long as you have that unless they're in the air hitting them cqc is quite easy. The problem is how easy it is to avoid them in high tier play. The hellfires don't have amazing splash. It's enough to get somebody just behind cover, but a smart opponent won't do that. You need almost complete LoS to hit with them and in a competitive match cover really isn't often far away. People like myself who often don't dodge hellfires because we don't care. Go ahead shoot me. Some matches i'll just stare straight at a rocketeer from range and dodge every missile just to assert my dominance.

 

These are all opinions generated during my 10 hour no-lock rocketeer phase where I went dumbfire eoc cqc and sometimes did pretty damn well. If you're gonna dumbfire have either a shield, a nice corridor to shoot down, or have a tight pack of enemies nearby. Use it as a wall of damage.

[6ixxer]

Thinking outside the box! I've followed this thread waiting for someone to bring something like that up.

 

Imagine if dumbfiring meant firing each missile in succession, with a rapid ROF (say quicker than TOW), instead of all missiles at once? This would mean slower heat buildup, lower DPS in exchange for a very spammy, true area denial weapon.

 

If it allowed for dual dumbfire mode, where you held your secondary button to activate a full missile salvo, like it goes currently. Make reload times relative to each missile, so if you fire the full salvo, it will take longer to charge them all, but not if you want to spam single missiles.

 

All of this in addition to lock-on mode, of course. What do you guys think?

 

I was trying to build my idea in that direction, but not hold for full salvo, I wouldn't want to delay the fire, its laggy enough.

If you wait for full reload it just fires all you have. Allows you to alpha, then follow up with spam, pause behind cover and then you step out will a full salvo ready.

 

Alt-fire won't start to lock unless you have a full salvo ready and works as normal.

[Anichkov3]

simply increase his rate of fire ... 

You may notice that a procedure "lock-on"requires a decent time. And in fact "lock-on", he is the only way to hit full damage missiles ....

Edited by Anichkov3, 14 July 2015 - 08:59 PM.

[crockrocket]

Hellfires need to go somewhere, though god knows where the fck that is. These have proven to be one hell of a thing to balance

[StubbornPuppet]

Hellfires need to go somewhere, though god knows where the fck that is. These have proven to be one hell of a thing to balance

Absolutely need to go somewhere.  But, their main problem is that Adhesive started the process of balancing them with an intentionally exaggerated nerf and then... they all disappeared without doing anything else.  At the very least, maybe they could be reverted back to where they were before that... for the time being.

[The_Silencer]

We all may agree on that HFs were quite scary&OP at certain point in the past, hence their brutal&overdrive nerf by the Adhesives.. definitely not easy to balance... but undoubtfully not an impossible thing! ;)

[Pelanthoris]

I've been thinking for a while now that right now locking hellfires doesn't take much skill and therefore the core mechanism of the weapon should be changed, instead of dmg/rof/velocity/etc changes.

I was thinking something along these lines:

- Locking takes about the same time as now, maybe little shorter

- Firing initially as dumbfires, quite high velocity/damage, rather large spread

- Second utility click enables homing to target aquired previously

   + Initially homing enables hairpin turns

   + Velocity get's significant decrease (and maybe damage too)

   + Further turns quite slow

- Detonate mid-air if target is not reached in x seconds.

- If homing isn't used, next lock to same target is faster

 

This way dumbfire would be viable at short range, low damage area denial at longer range. You could do corner arcs like now, but if target is very far, you  don't get hits. Instead you should keep your focus on missiles until they have gotten past some obstacle you want to circle. This way you couldn't fire hf to sky and hit anywhere you want from above.

 

I also like the mentioned idea of locking only after missiles are launched.

[The_Silencer]

...

- Detonate mid-air if target is not reached in x seconds.

...

Not like TOWs please.

 

However,

an interesting possibility, as good eye-candy effect and/or as somehow "friendly effect" (for example while owning some opponent.. as a way to concede one more chance to him/her.. right?) might be something pretty valid (and even cool?) to me.

 

From a realism stand point, you might self-destruct them via control key making the many missile's propellers (full bolley..) to explode, ergo not the warhead. Would be cool to see it plus some random damage per fallen HF too... just as side note. ;)

 

 

P.S. Nevertheless, by improving (even slightly) every value in its many properties won't end up well in most of the cases. Another OP situation HFs may occur with ease.

It happened before ,so it's a sensitive subject which will require delicate keystrokes, a lot of thinking, abundant testing and how not, a good dose of.. love... =)