42 replies to this topic

[StubbornPuppet]

Apparently several people liked my suggestion and asked that I create a new topic about it.  OK.

 

Here's what I wrote:

 

I've always thought that turret mode was a fantastic element of the C-Class mechs and actually defined their body style - the reason they have those huge shoulder shields is so they can go into turret mode.  I believe that, since turret mode does not provide a benefit to the player (just an alternate stance that sacrifices mobility and aiming... and is highly vulnerable to attacks from behind) why does it have to be the "Special Ability"?  Why not make turret mode activate using a different button, let all the C-Class mechs return to having turret mode available and give them all a special ability?

 

Seriously, what difference would it make if the Grenadier could also still use turret?  Would it matter all that much if the Rocketeer had the special ability to fly without fuel consumption or lock on to multiple enemies for a few seconds... AND still had turret mode?  Maybe the Vanguard could have a special that allowed it to go into turret mode use it's turret shields/wings to shove and do melee damage for several seconds to help it clear out an objective...

 

Essentially what I'm saying is that I've never found turret mode to provide any real benefit, but find no justification for taking it away.

 

 

So, there you go.

 

In a nutshell:  Bring back and/or keep Turret Mode for all C-Class mechs because it provides no special advantage (which is not also balanced by an equal disadvantage) and maintains the functional intent of the design of the C-Class mechs.  ADD/KEEP a special ability, which is separate from turret mode, for all C-Class mechs which actually plays to the purpose of the mech it's applied to.

 

Discuss :)

[DerMax]

Remember the time when the Grenadier had the siege mode AND its ability and you could turn yourself into a carpet bombing rev-gl machine? Yeah, that was cool.

[Anichkov3]

Probably. But we must be sure to weaken the turret all the mechs C-class.

[JackVandal]

I personally love this idea, but with the higher levels of the game balanced toward Cs already, i feel this would probably push it further in that direction, because in higher levels shots are traded one for one, so anything light or medium gets a disadvantage, turrets cant be nerfed any because they would become useless. I really like the idea, but i dont know how it would be implemented while keeping things balanced.

[Hellzilla]

Turret mode is weak as it is. It's a utility that impairs mobility in a game where that alone is a tremendous skill to take advantage of. I like Stub's idea in the OP. But if we can't have this utility and a special ability, if given a choice, I would take an ability. I would rather use mobility and the already existing indestructible cover than turn into a turtle that is extremely vulnerable from above and behind. Give me Gamera or give me death.

[SatelliteJack]

I really dig this idea. I feel like I remember #SaveTheWings being a thing on the Old Forums, and it still rings true. The turret mode is more than a little lackluster, but without it, the C chassis's signature wings are pointless. And even besides that, it seems like a huge waste of resources. Hybridizing the mechanics for the C class could be really cool, as well as properly utilize the resources at hand.

[Panzermanathod]

If we make the turret mode a standard C-Class ability in addition to unique abilities, to be fair, we should give A and B classes standard abilities as well.

[Kopra]

 

 

Buff C-class mechs.

 

Discuss :)

 

 

No.

[(Unknown)1590d2c747fabd]

Thought: What if the "special ability" was activated by going into turret mode. Then the "special ability" ran for X amount of time but when it ran out you remained in turret mode till you manually exited. Relaunching the "special ability" after the cool-down would require exiting turret mode and re-entering.

 

Kinda half baked but a concept maybe worth exploring.

Edited by oSPANNERo, 20 May 2015 - 12:33 PM.

[HorseHeadProphet]

I like it. Turret mode is too weak, and as pointed out, losing mobility in this game is massive sacrifice which the current turret modes simply do not justify. I think we all agree on that.

 

Spoiler

 

But the ability should be connected to the shape-changing function of the wings as well. Not a special ability and a turret mode. Because then, A and B classes will need another special modifier too. Or won't they? Now you're talking about remaking every mech in the game.

 

For C class turrets...Perhaps a big increase in turret moving speed, like up to normal walking speed. Boosting would still be possible, at the expense of fuel, to almost normal boosting speed. No jumping, but you can hit jump pads. When you are in this turret mode, you can activate your mech's ability. 

 

What are some cool ideas for C Class abilities? I like the Brawler's slow heal function at the expense of mobility. Something that can allow you to convert HP to fuel, or fuel to HP? Double rate of fire for weaponry with less than double heat build-up? Completely disable all radars and blow any scanners/scramblers in your vicinity? Multi-target lock is a good one too. Giant reduction in primary weapon spread? radioactive isotope ammunition that allows your team to track anyone who has been hit by it, or its splash, on radar until they are fully healed up again.

 

Good topic, C class turret ability is overdue for some attention. I'm interested to see what others come up with.

[Amish_Kommander]

Honestly the turret mode should only be applied to certain Cs.

 

Changing the rocketeer special to lock on multiple targets should be included but not given the turret mode. Its bad enough they go turret mode while defending objectives with orbs, but having the multiple lock ons as well? That doesnt sound like something id wanna go against. Your team would have to really focus him down otherwise he'd just be locking on to your whole team and start launching away. Keeping your whole team under suppression fire from homing systems while having to focus on their primary target.

 

Grenadier is another C that wouldnt be a good idea to give turret mode to. Have you not seen a skilled Grenadier? Now that with a tech and turret mode... not gonna be cool. Its bad enough they get inc dmg for explosives and inc explosive AoE radius, but now giving them reduced dmg from frontal attacks? Ya if you can get behind them (given that you are in front of him) you may have a chance, but how are you gonna do that unless youre a C class (Scout most likely) with legit skill to dodge his explosive attacks? 

 

G2 Raider is an obvious mech that shouldnt get the turret mode. G2 Raiders do enough dmg as it is while taking dinosaur steps around the battlefield. Giving them that reduced frontal dmg would make them that much more scary to go against.

 

The Incinerator would stomp, even harder with a tech, on the battlefield. Reduced frontal dmg with a possible infinite amount of supression fire, and not to mention the heals of a friendly tech, would be insane and many people would rage quit, just adding to the issues some already have with Hawken. Bad for the game.

 

Now i have read your opening topic and only that. Srry if i have repeated someone elses'  idea i didnt read them. Also im high so i may seem like im shooting your idea down, i just really put much thought into this reply with possible issues that may come about. 

Edited by Amish_Kommander, 20 May 2015 - 02:05 PM.

[JackVandal]

I saw a post about the brawler getting a regen ability instead of turret, it sounded quite good,

 

Vanguard, stay as is,

 

Rocketer, maybe have the turret stay, but increase the turning of the hellfires while in turret mode? or just have that as an ability maybe?

 

Incini, not gona go there, that thing has its own post for tweaks.

 

thoughts?

[This_Machine]

Less heat buildup in turret mode would be nice, especially in the Vanguard. Making it part of the C-Class, and not the ability would be fine if all other class mech's got similar functions.

[Dawn_of_Ash]

If you want to buff turret mode, I say add some wheels to the bottom of the turrets whilst in the turret mode and boost mobility! :D Of course, to nerf this, it'd be super hard to turn and all that. Then this game would add a bit more of what of what people want to see in a Mech game. 

 

Although I really like the special ability idea as well - I'm just not sure how long each ability would last, the strength of the ability (damage buff = to Berzerker ability or not), if there would be a cool down and such.

[StubbornPuppet]

But the ability should be connected to the shape-changing function of the wings as well. Not a special ability and a turret mode. Because then, A and B classes will need another special modifier too. Or won't they? Now you're talking about remaking every mech in the game.

 Well, No.  A and B won't need another special modifier - they have small size, mobility and speed.  The turret mode is supposed to be an advantage of being big and slow - but it doesn't work out that way.  The C's are already slow and turret mode currenty gets no use (except by new players) because it is a total disadvantage except in the most rare and ideal of circumstances where you have a Technician that is willing to stay right behind you in a corner.

[StubbornPuppet]

Although I really like the special ability idea as well - I'm just not sure how long each ability would last, the strength of the ability (damage buff = to Berzerker ability or not), if there would be a cool down and such.

Sure, you'd still have a limited time and a cool down timer on each C-Class ability.

In fact, the only mechs that need a special ability added are the Rocketeer and the Vanguard.  The Grenadier, Incinerator and G2 Raider already have specials which are fine, they just need to be able to activate turret mode.

[Dawn_of_Ash]

Sure, you'd still have a limited time and a cool down timer on each C-Class ability.

In fact, the only mechs that need a special ability added are the Rocketeer and the Vanguard.  The Grenadier, Incinerator and G2 Raider already have specials which are fine, they just need to be able to activate turret mode.

 

It'd say keep it with the Vanguard - it seems to be it's thing. Maybe it's ability should be as it's mentioned before with the reduced heat generation? And why would you suggest a limited time and a cooldown? Wouldn't it be nicer to gain more for being in a vulnerable, slow, position? Possibly like having the aforementioned turret mode always reducing heat generation from it's weapons when it's in turret mode?

[StubbornPuppet]

It'd say keep it with the Vanguard - it seems to be it's thing. Maybe it's ability should be as it's mentioned before with the reduced heat generation? And why would you suggest a limited time and a cooldown? Wouldn't it be nicer to gain more for being in a vulnerable, slow, position? Possibly like having the aforementioned turret mode always reducing heat generation from it's weapons when it's in turret mode?

I mean a cooldown on special abilities like "locking on to multiple targets" for the Rocketeer, etc.  No nerf or limit to the actual being in a turret config.  I should have said that in the post.  Sorry.

Edited by StubbornPuppet, 20 May 2015 - 04:02 PM.

[BluetoothBoy]

I have a feeling I would become too OP for players in my MMR range if the Vanguard had turret mode AND an ability. Use the turret mode right on that thing and it leaves behind nothing but destruction. Out of turret mode, it's can move almost like a B class, and is basically an OP Infiltrator.

 

I honestly think, if anything, this would need to be very selective.

[Dawn_of_Ash]

I mean a cooldown on special abilities like "locking on to multiple targets" for the Rocketeer, etc.  No nerf or limit to the actual being in a turret config.  I should have said that in the post.  Sorry.

 

Yes, I understood that, but my comment was about having the cooldown in the first place. Why limit the effect to a time when you could the same effect, but at a lesser degree, for the entire time you are in turret mode? Example: Let's say that the Grenaider's ability increases the damage of weapon about 30% while active. What I'm suggesting is that the Grenaider gets a 15% weapon boost, at all times when it's in turret mode.

[Masidan]

Why not consider alternating abilities? Maybe a buffed-up turret mode for classes, so as to not encourage active-only picks, being interchangeable in the battle garage (same concept as for changing weapons) and adding abilities for the C's that don't have actives?

My suggestions for actives:

• Brawler with quick healing bursts (possible AoE, maybe 70, 80 every few seconds as an active or heal ~150 damage in a few seconds every ~20);
• Vanguard with old Bruiser's Damage Absorb, but bigger (~20, 25%?);
• Rocketeer (oh boy, here we go), suggestion number 1: with a slower lock-on with and angle limit (not only center-of-aim lock-on) with multiple targets, increased Hellfire RoF, can lock on to 2 targets (Hellfire fires two salvos) and each salvo goes to a target for a few seconds (maybe 10 with 40s cooldown?) although with reduced damage (15%) and the heat for each firing is the same. The lock-on would target the closest targets from the center of your aim;
• Rocketeer, suggestion number 2: Slow lock-on for all targets in your HUD (should be tweaked because you can change your field of view) and then shoot a stronger-than-Seeker missile on every locked-on target after a few seconds (100 damage for each target, same splash as Seeker [or a little bigger, about Rev-GL], 2 seconds lock-on, 1.5 seconds to shoot after lock-on [totaling 3.5 seconds "casting"], 20 seconds CD).

PS: yes, I know, that's a lot of love for Rocketeer and too little for the others. 

Edited by Masidan, 20 May 2015 - 08:11 PM.

[JackVandal]

 Well, No.  A and B won't need another special modifier - they have small size, mobility and speed.  The turret mode is supposed to be an advantage of being big and slow - but it doesn't work out that way.  The C's are already slow and turret mode currenty gets no use (except by new players) because it is a total disadvantage except in the most rare and ideal of circumstances where you have a Technician that is willing to stay right behind you in a corner.

i beg to differ on that no use bit, iv had my fuzzy bunny handed to me then shoved down my thought by c0ndom and jelloobi in turret (no hate, love those guys, learn a lot each time they break my knees.) they use it splendidly. 

 

Pardon the spelling and grammer

Edited by JackVandal, 20 May 2015 - 11:14 PM.

[Amish_Kommander]

For the turret mode i think keep the time it takes to build into a turret and you can strafe left or right  to start reverting into a mech. The defense of the turret mode is nice but when there are multiple enemies surrounding you and you try to get out of turret mode, youre left vulnerable for like almost 2 seconds and thats time given to the attackers to get that much more dmg off before having to switch to a defensive/ offensive play style.

[StubbornPuppet]

For the turret mode i think keep the time it takes to build into a turret and you can strafe left or right  to start reverting into a mech. The defense of the turret mode is nice but when there are multiple enemies surrounding you and you try to get out of turret mode, youre left vulnerable for like almost 2 seconds and thats time given to the attackers to get that much more dmg off before having to switch to a defensive/ offensive play style.

 Yes, that's a good point we've neglected to mention up to this point - "the time it takes to get in and out of turret mode".  And it's probably the biggest deficit to using turret mode of all.  Thank you.

[crockrocket]

Turret mode may be weak, but C-class is strong. Not saying this is a bad idea, but balance would be a fine line.

[Grollourdo]

This us interesting

I like all the ideas but it's hard to immagin if things would get bad.... But worth a try XD

[MechFighter5e3bf9]

Yeah and turret shields all splash damage from the front using own weapons, call it aborting the explosives remotely for safety like a submarine can on its homers

[MechFighter5e3bf9]

For the turret mode i think keep the time it takes to build into a turret and you can strafe left or right  to start reverting into a mech. The defense of the turret mode is nice but when there are multiple enemies surrounding you and you try to get out of turret mode, youre left vulnerable for like almost 2 seconds and thats time given to the attackers to get that much more dmg off before having to switch to a defensive/ offensive play style.

yeah should have a ability start charging after you enter turret mode that lets you duck and cover with the shields and be unable to move or attack

 

oh as for rocketeer should be able to switch both weapons from homing to dumbfire with increased speed, the ioncreased speed will also balance itself somewhat since it will alert the enemy to the threat much easier than current missiles, primary is currently nearly invisible and undodgeable. dumbfires with the trade its capacity from homing to pure thrust will make them just as deadly from impact and you a bigger target similar to a incin with their fireballs

Edited by MechFighter5e3bf9, 30 May 2015 - 07:17 PM.

[MomOw]

What about turret modes that :

- still have no dodge

- have little to no speed reduction

- have faster deploying / cancelling anim (really faster, ~0.5s, same as delay after boosting)

- maybe have a cooldown after cancelling (below 10s)

 

My point is that the dodge limitation with the already slow speed of C-class is enough to balance the damage reduction (no dodge = secondary hit), the speed that is even further reduced is crippling.

 

A really fast cancel anim' would lead to a turret "hop" gameplay which could be interresting to test : go turret to reduce distance while talking little damages, then hop, shoot secondary, dodge.

Edited by MomOw, 02 June 2015 - 09:29 PM.

[CounterlogicMan]

Reviving this bad ass suggestion.

 

TforTurretMode

[InfiniteLegends]

what about the incinerator? its dispescion ability is quite UP, since you will be vunurable for 3 seconds, not to mention the loss of ammo for your SAARE (and all bears spinups, especially papa is weak with this...). even tough it can do almost 300 damage with a full heat tank, it is still quite weak... why not give him a ability that will increasy your heat with like 5% per second, and negate ALL other heat generation/dispersion, you can turn it off by hitting F or overheating, kind of the same as the cloak of the infiltrator, but this will also DOUBLE(?) the heat pickup from other mechs (enemys included). :)

[HugeGuts]

o Remove additional buffs from being in turret mode. Turn these buffs into separate abilities.

o Standardize turret mode for all C's.

     - Turret mode shields have their own health points that protect player health points by absorbing damage.

     - Turret mode shields have very high health and damage absorbtion.

     - Turret mode shield health regenerates when not in turret mode.

     - Players can walk while deploying to and from turret mode.

     - Remove additional damage taken from rear attacks.

     - Remove boosting while in turret mode.

     - Remove speed decrease while in turret mode.

 

This won't make turret mode useful for 1v1. But turret mode will never be useful for 1v1. However, I see these changes making turret mode at least useful for team play by turning C's into the "heaviliy armored walking distraction" tank-type classes are supposed to be.

Edited by HugeGuts, 17 October 2015 - 10:25 AM.

[Panzermanathod]

I don't think giving all C classes more health by means of a regenerating shield is going to help balance.

[HugeGuts]

It's not about balance. It's about making turret mode useful in the first place. Even if its usefulness is niche. And given how mobile Hawken is, niche is as good as turret mode will ever get.

[WillyW]

Vanguard turret mode is not weak. It has a weakness, but it is by no means weak. I run a vanguard with SMC, but I equip Repair Charge x3 + Item Regenerator. It basically turns the turret mode into invincibility mode (from the front). I don't use Extractor or Repair kit (because of TPG rules), but it makes the combination even more awesome. Thus far, the only mechs that seem to be able to out-DPS it are the Incinerator and Berzerker (with ability activated only), and sometimes Vulgren. If you have a team behind you, it allows the team to push forward extremely well. And during certain cases, it works for 1v1 as well, though, definitely not out in the open.

Edited by WillyW, 17 October 2015 - 02:48 PM.

[JackVandal]

I feel the vanguards turret is probably in a good place, as is the gren ability.

 

I like the idea of abilities, but i also love the wings, so maybe if they keep turret, with normal movement speed, no dodge, and no extra damage weakness. And an ability with cooldown that activates when holding down the turret mode instead of pressing.

 

Examples being 

 

Brawler: AoE team regen for x seconds (imagine the yellow sparkles)

 

Rocketeer: gets improved rate of fire with reduced heat gen, for x seconds.

 

Incini: maybe instead of doing damage can vent heat to any enemy in its AoE instead of damage?at least increase the range either way, as the current ability is a bit useless.

[asipo]

If we want heavy class to keep the turrent mode + 1 extra ability

medium and light class also need to have additional mode

 

my idea is just remove turret mode, so all C class will have normal ability

but then to make use of the wing, all ability will looks like G2-raider turkey when activate

 

 

brawler

effect: heal 200 armour in 10 seconds

cooldown: 40 seconds

how to use: activate when low on health, you regen slowly while playing peekaboo

 

vanguard

effect: reduce damage by 30% (from all side) for 5 seconds

cooldown: 30 seconds

how to use: activate when full health, extra defense while sustaining your attack

 

grenadier: just leave it as current

 

incenerator: just leave it as current

 

rocketeer

effect: increase boost speed by 50% for 8 seconds, will cancel if you attack (speed also reduce depend on how many EU you store)

cooldown: 50 seconds

how to use: 

1. to flank enemy side (solve missle issue because enemy is now exposed)

2. to escape since rocketeer is vulnerable if get caught in close range

[StubbornPuppet]

 

If we want heavy class to keep the turrent mode + 1 extra ability

medium and light class also need to have additional mode

 

Sorry, but I disagree.  The turret mode was supposed to be the thing that gave the C-Class mechs a fighting chance and a purpose on the battlefield.  There is absolutely nothing about turret mode that affects the balance of the other mechs in comparison.  In fact, turret mode is, more often than not, nothing but a detriment to players who choose to use it.

 

When you're in turret mode, any benefit gained from the added forward armor is completely negated by the limited mobility, slower speed and turning rate and lowered armor from rear attacks.  It's a totally neutral mechanic.

 

In fact, turret mode is actually more of a detriment currently than it is a neutral because of the time it takes to get into and out of it - a time that the player is completely static and vulnerable.  I'm honestly OK with the time it takes to go into turret mode, but the time to get out of it is slower than the time it takes to get out of repair mode - and leaves players completely screwed if an enemy gets behind them.  Speed up the return to normal stance mode and I feel that the mode would become something that people might actually choose from time to time.  Right now... for a long time actually... the only time you will see anyone other than newbies using turret mode at all is Vanguard players in high-tier matches.  Any other player or any other mech and it is really just a dumb move.

 

So, as I said in the o.p., "Bring back Turret-Mode in all C-Class mechs and give an actual special ability to those which still retain it."  Then make test adjustments to the speed of engaging and disengaging the mode, test adjustments to travel and turning speed, and adjustments to the extra vulnerability from the rear and we suddenly have a core game mechanic that actually works in the game.

Edited by StubbornPuppet, 29 October 2015 - 09:14 AM.

[The_Silencer]

I missed this one so not necroing it, at least in essence, here..

 

I think the OP's idea might be good only for some few big guys in the game, whilst not so good idea for the rest of the Cs in HAWKEN

 

As many of you already know, there's some few cases in which the C's turret mode makes a difference in the field.. per se, so adding more power to those mechs in the form of new special stuff might probably unbalance gameplay in a considerable way..

 

Should be discuss more about this? - updates.. you know ;)

Edited by The_Silencer, 19 April 2016 - 10:09 AM.

[StubbornPuppet]

I missed this one so not necroing it, at least in essence, here..

 

I think the OP's idea might be good only for some few big guys in the game, whilst not so good idea for the rest of the Cs in HAWKEN

 

As many of you already know, there's some few cases in which the C's turret mode makes a difference in the field.. per se, so adding more power to those mechs in the form of new special stuff might probably unbalance gameplay in a considerable way..

 

Should be discuss more about this? - updates.. you know ;)

 

 

Necroing is the RIGHT thing to do when the discussion is relevant and ongoing.  So, thanks for not starting another new topic.

 

On you point about some C's being able to effectively use turret mode and possibly become imbalanced... you just make it so that their special ability cannot be used while in turret mode.  The speed of travel and recovery can also be tweaked for while mechs are in turret mode.

 

And some mechs, ones like the Rocketeer, in which Turret Mode is a detriment to their survival, their special could be geared to compliment turret mode so that there is a viable reason to use it at all.