92 replies to this topic

[Nightfirebolt]

Right now, hellfires have way more drawbacks than advantages. They inflict mediocre damage, they glitch out frequently, they take time to lock on, they can be dodged easily, and you can hear them coming. In addition, they are the only secondary weapon in the game that can be countered (with holograms). Does nobody else see the problem here?

 

Bruiser has traditionally been my favourite mech, but nowadays it sits on the shelf because it's suicide to use it in high-MMR servers. Rocketeer still sees some use, but not because it has hellfires - Its high HP and powerful primary weapons are the things that allow it to continue to be useful.

 

Right now, hellfires only really work as suppression weapons. People hate it when those alarms start buzzing in their ears, and so it sometimes compels them to get into cover. But hellfires are still ineffective when it comes to raw DPS or versatility. If I'm in a Zerker and I'm fighting against a Bruiser, I know I can simply rush in without issue. They have an almost zero chance to hit me with their hellfires, and even if they do, they're not going to do a lot of damage to me so who cares?

 

Aside from fixing the bugs with the hellfires' tracking, I think hellfires need their damage buffed at the very least. And perhaps even tighter tracking algorithms. I seem to recall that hellfires were far deadlier before #increasethespeeds, but now any A-Mech can dodge an entire salvo of rockets without issue, even if they're out in the open. Most B-Mechs can, too. This is a problem.

 

I understand that new players hate going up against hellfires, but once they learn to dodge and use cover they usually realize that hellfires are not as powerful as they seem.

 

I heard a rumor the new devs are going to nerf hellfires again. Please say it ain't so.

Edited by Nightfirebolt, 11 April 2015 - 02:35 PM.

[Broham78]

Old devs nerfed the Hellfires along with everything else. They used to be good.

[Sylhiri]

They way Hellfires are designed, they can be overly amazing or completely useless at higher tier. It's something you can't really change with buffs or nerfs.

[Amidatelion]

No. 

 

They're garbage.

 

They only hit if you don't care or don't know how to dodge.

[Aregon]

No. 

 

They're garbage.

 

They only hit if you don't care or don't know how to dodge.

..If they are garbage, isn`t that why it needs a buff?

[Nightfirebolt]

..If they are garbage, isn`t that why it needs a buff?

 

Pretty sure he was responding to Sylhiri who said:

 

They way Hellfires are designed, they can be overly amazing or completely useless at higher tier.

 

I, too, can't think of a single way that hellfires could be "overly amazing" at higher tier.

[Kopra]

I've always had the idea that the Hellfire should load its 6 rockets 3 at a time. The first 3 rockets would reload in 1 second, and the second half would reload in the same time we have now.

 

This means you could spamfire 3-rocket salvos every second, or, lock those rockets (0.5 second lock-on time) and effective fire effectively 55 damage Hellfires every 1.5 seconds. This would make for some interesting burst damage options, since you could first fire 6 rockets, locked on or not, and then 1 second later fire 3 rockets for a potentially nasty amount of damage. The thing is, the rockets are slow, and they would never be able to do their maximum damage not locked on. They would, however, become decent at suppressing an area. You know, kind of like the Incinerator but not as powerful and limited by heat. The Rocketeer's turret mode would become a little more useful since you could instalock those 1-second reload 3-rocket Hellfires and really keep them rockets coming and enemies' ears ringing. I like the sound of that.

 

 

There was also a Seeker rework in my mind to make the Heat Cannon and EOC Repeater more attractive options, but that's beside the point. The Hellfires need something. A small buff that lets them do their thing what they're good at, but not making them overly powerful against the lower bracket players.

[Sylhiri]

I, too, can't think of a single way that hellfires could be "overly amazing" at higher tier.

 

I wish I knew where that video was of Mexichan Man shooting Hellfires in a U shape around a building. Can't remember if it fully went 360, but yah if they start negating cover to that degree then it's a problem.

Edited by Sylhiri, 11 April 2015 - 03:40 PM.

[Bad_BennyAK]

I used to hate Hellfires,  until I saw a youtube video that showed guys aquiring lock,  AND THEN aiming far AWAY from their target,  in order to shoot around obstacles!   I'm still working on that skill.....   it's a matter of positioning yourself,  being familiar with the arc of travel the missiles take,  and being comfortable.  I assign the lock function to a redundant thumb button on my mouse. 

 

I feel the Hellfire is not for every level.   It depends.   You need to use them on a map with a few key areas of good visibility.   You need to know how to find good vantage points.   Use good judgement in this,  and I think the Rocketeer / Bruiser can be your best friends. 

 

Don't blame the missle or the mech,  just because you don't know the map well,   or don't know how to shoot around targets.  

[bacon_avenger]

I wish I knew where that video was of Mexichan Man shooting Hellfires in a U shape around a building. Can't remember if it fully went 360, but yah if they start negating cover to that degree then it's a problem.

I know what video you are referring to, and if I can find it, I'll post the link.

 

In the meantime, there is this one he posted.

 

And for those who are not aware, you really can't do these kinds of tricks as well any longer.  The footage was recorded in early beta before ascension.  Hellfires have been nerfed since then.

 

Edited by bacon_avenger, 11 April 2015 - 04:13 PM.

[Nov8tr]

The old Devs nerfed their speed. They nerfed their tracking severely. They nerfed their damage. (a LOT) I love the bruiser. I don't use it as much because against high MMR matches it isn't what it use to be. It is a fun mech, or it use to be. :( I also wish they would UN-NERF it. It still has it purpose but you really have to know how to use it and you are going to drop in score in dps, mmr, etc. Not fair really what they did. But that was par for the course then.

 

How about it Josh?  How about some love for the Bruiser? I miss the old mech. :D

[Amidatelion]

Am I the only one who thinks Hellfires need a buff?

 

 

No. 

 

 

Clarified

[Nightfirebolt]

 

Don't blame the missle or the mech, just because you don't know the map well, or don't know how to shoot around targets.  

 

Trust me, I play with hellfires a lot, and I've been playing this game a long time. No matter how I utilize them they're still proving to be utterly useless in high-MMR play.

 

They're great for farming noobs, sure. But even so, they tend to get me assists rather than outright kills because their damage is so low.

[Call_Me_Ishmael]

Lost Eco, Bunker, Sahara.

 

These maps are why HFs were nerfed.  Rework maps is probably higher on my list.

[HorseHeadProphet]

yeah slight buff, in most areas - projectile speed, better tracking, maybe less warning time...DPS is ok.

[Elite_is_salty]

fuzzy bunny HELLFIRES

[Nightfirebolt]

Lost Eco, Bunker, Sahara.

 

These maps are why HFs were nerfed.  Rework maps is probably higher on my list.

 

Right now those maps are the only ones where hellfires are viable at all.

 

If they end up reworking these maps, they might as well take hellfires out of the game altogether.

Edited by Nightfirebolt, 11 April 2015 - 04:59 PM.

[bacon_avenger]

fuzzy bunny HELLFIRES

*makes a mental note of which mechs to use next time he sees elite in a match*

[teeth_03]

The think Hellfires need more splash damage so at least if you hit the ground close to the target (read: dumbfire) it does a bit of damage. HF should have more splash damage and radius that TOW but sacrifices the ability to detonate in the air for a shoddy lock on ability.

[Dawn_of_Ash]

Right now those maps are the only ones where hellfires are viable at all.

 

If they end up reworking these maps, they might as well take hellfires out of the game altogether.

 

So much yes. If they modify these maps, then you would have to buff the hellfires A LOT! All other maps do not have any open ground to hit anyone with the hellfires with. I'm even seeing some lower ranked players dodging my Hellfires on Bunker. O_o I've even tried Hellfires on Bunker with my mere 1850 mmr and people are still dodging it! Hellfire's are so severely nerfed that I do not like using the Rocketeer anymore...although admittedly I'm better with it. XD

 

I think a faster lock-on is in order.

Edited by Dawn_of_Ash, 11 April 2015 - 05:17 PM.

[M4st0d0n]

Mmmm. Use bruiser or rocketeer on high MMR servers. Get pawned. Lower your MMR. Access to more servers. Profit.

 

I've already thrown some ideas about them on the skillfire thread.

 

If Hawken is a TDM shooter where every mechs could duel against each other one on one, then dumbfire needs to launch faster. Time to lock on should be reduced to require aiming. Early tracking buffed to allow cornerfights like in the old day.

 

I'm pretty sure SMC and Seekers are outdamaging them right now.

[Sylhiri]

Right now those maps are the only ones where hellfires are viable at all.

 

If they end up reworking these maps, they might as well take hellfires out of the game altogether.

 

Maybe viable against lower skilled opponents but you can easily dodge them without cover, the only reason why they are potent is if you have enough hellfire mechs to spam them (and seekers) faster then the dodge cooldown.

 

If anything were to be adjusted without reworking how Hellfires work it should be the travel speed. You can't even blind fire them with success because they are too ****ing slow.

[AsianJoyKiller]

Don't blame the missle or the mech,  just because you don't know the map well,   or don't know how to shoot around targets.  

It's perfectly alright to blame the mechanics in this case. Hellfires have a low, very hard-capped, skill-ceiling. At a certain point, players have the knowledge and skill to easily and frequently negate Hellfires, and there's nothing the Hellfire user can do about it.

Really, Hellfire is just one of those weapons that should be reworked. It's been suggested bajillions of times now, but it should work like an TOW launcher. An actual TOW launcher that is fly-by-wire. Not the dumb-fire Hawken TOW.

 

Easy to use for newbies, and allows for interesting high-skill play too.

[bacon_avenger]

I wish I knew where that video was of Mexichan Man shooting Hellfires in a U shape around a building. Can't remember if it fully went 360, but yah if they start negating cover to that degree then it's a problem.

I do believe this is the video you were referring to, no?

[Sylhiri]

Nah, if I remember correctly it was in uptown.

[devotion]

they need a redesign instead of balance adjustments

[-Tj-]

Nah, if I remember correctly it was in uptown.

 

Pretty sure you're thinking of the same video I'm thinking of. Bacon's first video post had the clip in it, at about 2:40. That's the video I was thinking about before but couldn't find it. (Thanks, bacon_avenger!).

 

But yeah, these suckers used to lock really hard, and various iterations of them were somewhere on a scale of too good or not good enough. The current iteration of the lock is buggy, but they're still fun. The tricky bit is that if they're buffed, how would you buff them? Increase splash? Track harder? Increase damage? If any of it is changed, it would make them easier to score kills with, and locking weapons, imo, shouldn't reward players so easily.

 

If they're going to be buffed, I think the lock should be made more difficult to obtain. Locking right now is just too incredibly easy mode and I think having to work for those kills is a good trade-off.

[CrimsonKaim]

Hellfire Missiles are just annoying, nothing more.

 

But holy, not UP. Ofcourse it is a surpression weapon but that does not justifies a buff to damage. 

I could live with a damage increase by 50% while decreasing its RoF by 50% as well.

This will cause less spam across Bunker for example and grants more burst.

Additionally, give it a different tracking system. More like these hammerhead thingy dingys. They will not fly directly at your, but in front of you. Decreases the chance of a miss while good players still know how to dodge them.

 

And remove this cloak scan. This is what really gets on my nerves.

[MomOw]

I agree that hellfire are below average, I agree that they shouldn't lock on cloaked Mechs but I don't agree with increasing a rof decrease.

As a suppression weapon I don't think a rof decrease is not a good idea

 

Auto-aim hellfire are OK except when spammed in bunker, but my opinion is that the map should be reworked, not the hellfire.

It you checks the maths they are on par with scoped sabot for DPS and rof, so I guess they are OK.

 

The main issue that I have with hellfire is when you try to shoot without locking. I think this needs a changes : either increase the speed of "dumb" hellfire or give them some tracking ability (same as Seeker).

Edited by MomOw, 12 April 2015 - 07:01 AM.

[-Tj-]

 

Additionally, give it a different tracking system. More like these hammerhead thingy dingys. They will not fly directly at your, but in front of you. Decreases the chance of a miss while good players still know how to dodge them.

 

They used to do this at one point. They were really, really annoying when they did. Out in the open, they would track really hard and never miss, but because of this they would be super easy to avoid if even the smallest amount of cover was available. I don't want that version of Hellfires back.

 

The tracking as it is now is at a good place. If anything, it could use a very slight increase in how tightly they can turn, but I wouldn't go beyond that. And when I say "slight" I mean freaking "slight."

[RedVan]

Buff something that you don't need to aim? No thanks!

[bacon_avenger]

The tracking as it is now is at a good place. If anything, it could use a very slight increase in how tightly they can turn, but I wouldn't go beyond that. And when I say "slight" I mean freaking "slight."

Oh come on Tj, you don't want the hellfires back that would orbit a mech if the mech moved in just the right way?

[-Tj-]

Oh come on Tj, you don't want the hellfires back that would orbit a mech if the mech moved in just the right way?

Lol I admit, that would be pretty funny.

[Nightfirebolt]

 

It you checks the maths they are on par with scoped sabot for DPS and rof, so I guess they are OK.

 

Except that a scoped sabot hits instantly, doesn't trigger alarms, doesn't glitch out, can be coupled with slug rifle for amazing burst, and it can boost its damage even further with Power Shot.

 

Hellfires, at most, might have a full salvo of EOC thrown alongside them, or perhaps some seekers or a heat cannon shot, but these all have travel time, can be dodged, and cannot benefit from any abilities.

 

And that's just the Rocketeer. Bruiser has got absolutely nothin'.

Edited by Nightfirebolt, 12 April 2015 - 02:16 AM.

[M4st0d0n]

Bruiser in not bursty. Hellfire skill ceiling was high because there was bending techniques around corners, and they nerfed that. Right now if you play bruiser you need to play counterintuitively. Even on open space you need to force the bending. Because I think tracking is stronger if they are bent. Then you need to reaim to deal your primary damage.

[M4st0d0n]

Nah, if I remember correctly it was in uptown.

 Last frag of Mexichanman montage, with the SOAD music. On Uptown. First video 2:40.

 

Edit : Oh TJ ninja.

Edited by M4st0d0n, 12 April 2015 - 03:06 AM.

[crockrocket]

In most cases I think basing balance decisions off of higher tiers is fine for all levels. Hellfires are an exception. Buffing hellfires would not be a good thing for low mmr's imo. While they are utterly useless higher up, they are already borderline OP lower down where people don't know how to dodge them yet.

[M4st0d0n]

Funny you dont hear complain about them from new guys here... Maybe some actual not smurfing new player could give insight.

[Crminimal]

Why not just remove the lock on warning, less annoyance on open maps. and lets the user be a little more sneaky.
A slight buff to the tracking and increase splash would be nice to.

[Odoku]

Hellfires only work well on large open maps. As far as aiming around objects you cant really do it because they curve towards target WAY to quickly. No matter how much of an arc you give the missiles, they curve almost immediately into whatever you are trying to aim them around.