92 replies to this topic

[Panzermanathod]

As a low tier fuzzy bunny I can say I've had decent success with them while in groups. But as a 1 vs 1 weapon... not so much.

 

Edit: Zcrubs are filtered too? weird.

Edited by Panzermanathod, 12 April 2015 - 02:47 PM.

[Source_Mystic]

I really am not screaming for changers in most mechs but hellfire missals are utterly useless tracking is slow  the warning system gives way to much time to doge and damage. I would say increase lock on speed , Increase speed of missals and buff damage a bit. Also ether increase splash and or give a shorter or no warning. that would fix it for players that know how to doge. As for new players well they better learn how to doge.  I would not say do all of these but a combination of them would make hellfire usable again.

 

[SoldierHobbes11]

Right now, hellfires only really work as suppression weapons.

You do realize that this is their entire reason for existing and that both mechs the weapon is found on are SUPPRESSION mechs. Currently I think hellfires are in a good place. And if you let someone get too close when you have hellfires, that's your mistake and not the weapon's fault.

However if they do plan on nerfing them, I would agree that is very unnecessary.

[-Tj-]

Removing the alert sounds would just make them more annoying. Maybe they should just increase the damage done by dumbfire to make them not as useless.

[Jakyll]

As already mentioned by others, the roketeer's role is suppresion. Therefore his weapon arsenal corresponds to this category and aims at long range combat. In this aspect, I feel like hellfires are quite balanced. They force the enemy to hide behind cover and enemies feel uncomfortable to fight on open areas. I regard this as "mission accomplished" for a suppression-mech when I forced the enemy team to back off from silos or the aa.

 

As a rocketeer I feel like it's not my job to kill everyone, but rather to make enemy hp bars drop quickly and in my opinion the rocketeer does fairly well at this task in its current state. Reducing the rate of fire (of any of the rocketeer's weapons) doesn't seem like an appropriate change to me.

 

 

However, I would agree on an improvement of the non-locked hellfires in order to strengthen their usability in close combat. I don't want the rocketeer to be a mech that's good in every situation. He is great at long range and weak at closer combat - I accept that.

Nevertheless, I feel pretty helpless whenever an a-class mech gets too close, because you can neither hit him nor escape since you're so fat and slow. Your best chance is to run to your teammates and hope that they take care of the blowfly for you.

 

I'll leave it up to the pro scene to decide whether

• improved rate of fire
• or increased missile speed
• or faster lock-on the closer the enemy is
• or anything else they could think of

would be the best method to make hellfires a little more useful in close-quarter skirmishes.

 

Finally keep in mind that every rocketeer and bruiser would benefit from improvements to hellfires if they get implemented. And then try to imagine a scenraio where you have to fight 3 or more hellfire-mechs on the enemy team. Wouldn't be fun anymore if hellfires get to strong. So don't overdo it.

Edited by Jakyll, 13 April 2015 - 08:54 AM.

[Nightfirebolt]

You do realize that this is their entire reason for existing and that both mechs the weapon is found on are SUPPRESSION mechs. 

 

As already mentioned by others, the roketeer's role is suppresion. Therefore his weapon arsenal corresponds to this category and aims at long range combat. In this aspect, I feel like hellfires are quite balanced. They force the enemy to hide behind cover and enemies feel uncomfortable to fight on open areas. 

 

Right, but give me one reason why you'd want to run Rocketeer or Bruiser over Sharpshooter or Reaper for this purpose?

Edited by Nightfirebolt, 13 April 2015 - 02:51 PM.

[AsianJoyKiller]

Oh God. The old arguments of "It's a suppression weapon, of course it should be bad at killing." You know what's better suppression than a weapon that's not very dangerous under the best of circumstances? A weapon that is.

[Amidatelion]

Oh God. The old arguments of "It's a suppression weapon, of course it should be bad at killing." You know what's better suppression than a weapon that's not very dangerous under the best of circumstances? A weapon that is.

 

This. I would take a G2A over a Hellfire mech for suppression and a sabot before either. They all get people into cover, and the other two stand a chance of killing someone above 1900 MMR.

 

says the man who's been maining a heat rocketeer.

[M4st0d0n]

Oh god. Nitpicking on terms. You could refine the term "suppression" and call it a mech designed for "area of denial". That's three words. Of course it's bad. That's why you get "assassination" instead of "everything you need". Hellfires. Some people are using them. Some people are still trying to figure out what they're doing.

[SoldierHobbes11]

Right, but give me one reason why you'd want to run Rocketeer or Bruiser over Sharpshooter or Reaper for this purpose?

Because explosions.

[Nightfirebolt]

 

Right, but give me one reason why you'd want to run Rocketeer or Bruiser over Sharpshooter or Reaper for this purpose?

 

Because explosions.

 

Well, Grenadier would be better choice for suppression if that's the case. It has much higher damage, plus its grenades can bounce around/over obstacles, AND its explosion radius can be expanded with the gren's ability.

 

Or how about Incinerator? Incinerator is the suppression god. Its shots can't bounce, but they can arc over obstacles, they have good splash damage, can fire endlessly, AND they cause heat on enemies.

 

So now we've listed four mechs that are potentially superior to Rocketeer and Bruiser in terms of suppression. And we haven't even discussed Pred's potential for passive suppression with mines.

Edited by Nightfirebolt, 14 April 2015 - 01:04 PM.

[SoldierHobbes11]

Well, Grenadier would be better choice for suppression if that's the case. It has much higher damage, plus its grenades can bounce around/over obstacles, AND its explosion radius can be expanded with the gren's ability.

Or how about Incinerator? Incinerator is the suppression god. Its shots can't bounce, but they can arc over obstacles, they have good splash damage, can fire endlessly, AND they cause heat on enemies.

So now we've listed four mechs that are potentially superior to Rocketeer and Bruiser in terms of suppression. And we haven't even discussed Pred's potential for passive suppression with mines.

Well the reason I stated was somewhat of a joke, but in all seriousness the best way of looking at the rocketeer and bruiser is that they're built kinda like AA guns. While the incinerator, grenadier and even EOC predator suppress grounded targets very well, once they lose a hieght advantage, they become much less effective in most cases. It's much easier to hit aerial targets with the bruiser or rocketeer. Also, unlike the other mechs good at suppression, they have much more aerial mobility. These two mechs do a good job of keeping people out of the air as you are extremely vulnerable to hellfires while hovering.

[JackVandal]

while i agree with hobbs in that the hellfires are more air suppression, i feel like dumbfire could use a buff, because depending on the team keeping an enemy at range is not always effective, my suggestion would be to increase the travel speed of dumbfire, or perhaps increase the tracking strength inside a certain radius to keep range the same but not make the secondary useless in cc.

[MomOw]

I got an idea these days :

make the hellfire shoot 2 "dumb" missile with an increased speed (140m/s), dealing 60dmg each with small splash radius, same as SAARE uncharged), that split into 3 small missiles each after half a second (same as actual hellfire, maybe with an increased turn rate).

 

This way you have an efficient "dumb fire" mode, and the hellfire should be more tricky to aim as they will move straight forward the first 70m.

[Loglino]

Yes.

 

Slight buff.

[Bazookagofer]

[Grollourdo]

Oh them Hellfires... My arch enemy when cloaked.... XD lol

[Grollourdo]

I agree with Hobbes too it is true

for people who hate flying mechs heres thr mech for you XD LOL

[Meraple]

Hellfires are alot easier to dodge in the air if you have Air Compressor than on the ground at most ranges.

I don't see why anyone'd fly the entire time without it.

 

EDIT: Didn't notice how old the replies were aside from the two above me, derp..

Edited by (KDR) Meraple, 01 May 2015 - 04:01 AM.

[CraftyDus]

While I'd rather bust off a glass rod in my urethra than have to use a rocketeer in a duel (or anywhere else tbh) , if we made the rockets turn tighter, increased their damage, or otherwise buffed it as it stands; we risk our self respect as a game that includes a class having both a primary and secondary aim assist weapon.

 

It's intentionally weak because it's talents are often objectionable to common decency.

It's really bad for duels.

However,

It is my estimation that the flying seekateer is well enough to let alone.

[PepeKenobi]

Right after locking on an opponent and hidding behind some prop or some other map solid stuff to cover your self... Does that stuff of the map break the lock on that opponent you adquired... ?

 

A good case would that damn well equipped tough sniper (mostly an SS) shredding you into pieces far far away. (someone brought this case in here before)

[BuffMyRadius]

I think the main concern about buffing the Hellfires is that they are a weapon that is so easy to use. Instead of buffing the weapon in a traditional sense it would be nice to see the weapon reworked in a way that raises its skill cap. I think it would be cool to add a mechanic to the weapon that gives it more utility but also makes it harder to use. One person suggested having the two bursts of missiles fire on different clicks before going through the normal reload sequence to make it harder to dodge all the missiles. I think it would be neat if the missiles auto locked but only began homing on a second click after firing so they had some ability to be fired around obstacles.

 

Any traditional buffs would make them too powerful in low MMR games still without making them competitive in high MMR play.

[Nov8tr]

The hellfires are no where near as powerful as they were in the CLOSED BETA OF 2012. So yeah they nerfed hell out of them since then. They could use some kind of love. At absolute minimum increase their damage within close range so they have some kind of defense. The bruiser doesn't have the defense of the other mechs. I honestly think that would be fair.

[ThatDamnedBoedy]

I used to hate Hellfires,  until I saw a youtube video that showed guys aquiring lock,  AND THEN aiming far AWAY from their target,  in order to shoot around obstacles!   I'm still working on that skill.....   it's a matter of positioning yourself,  being familiar with the arc of travel the missiles take,  and being comfortable.  I assign the lock function to a redundant thumb button on my mouse. 

 

I feel the Hellfire is not for every level.   It depends.   You need to use them on a map with a few key areas of good visibility.   You need to know how to find good vantage points.   Use good judgement in this,  and I think the Rocketeer / Bruiser can be your best friends. 

 

Don't blame the missle or the mech,  just because you don't know the map well,   or don't know how to shoot around targets.  

Its a counter to having to aim

[bacon_avenger]

I used to hate Hellfires, until I saw a youtube video that showed guys aquiring lock, AND THEN aiming far AWAY from their target, in order to shoot around obstacles! I'm still working on that skill..... it's a matter of positioning yourself, being familiar with the arc of travel the missiles take, and being comfortable. I assign the lock function to a redundant thumb button on my mouse.

I feel the Hellfire is not for every level. It depends. You need to use them on a map with a few key areas of good visibility. You need to know how to find good vantage points. Use good judgement in this, and I think the Rocketeer / Bruiser can be your best friends.

Don't blame the missle or the mech, just because you don't know the map well, or don't know how to shoot around targets.

Its a counter to having to aim

Tell that to Mexichan, he was considered one of the, if not the, best rocketteer pilots in the game.

Yes, you don't have to aim directly at the target. But knowing how far to aim away and what direction to do so, all while positioning your mech and not loosing the lock as the target dives behind cover, is a form of aiming in it's own right.

Edited by bacon_avenger, 03 May 2015 - 05:42 PM.

[Nov8tr]

Tell that to Mexichan, he was considered one of the, if not the, best rocketteer pilots in the game.

Yes, you don't have to aim directly at the target. But knowing how far to aim away and what direction to do so, all while positioning your mech and not loosing the lock as the target dives behind cover, is a form of aiming in it's own right.

 

Hell yeah!! Mexichan freakin ruled rocketeer's. I wish I was that good with mine. I always did like the rocketeer. It was fun, but not a great mech for ME to use. :D I still think the hellfires need a LITTLE more damage, but up CLOSE only. So they can have just a tad more defense when in your face duels happen. Not much you can do, they are going to happen sometimes. You know how it is, "the best laid plans of mice and men often go astray". Sometimes in a Bruiser I feel more like the mice than the men. But I give it my best.

Edited by Nov8tr, 03 May 2015 - 08:25 PM.

[Nightfirebolt]

Just thought of a potential solution. Maybe we need to be able to detonate Hellfires the same way we can with TOWs. Then we could fire a burst in someone's face and detonate it right away. Splash radius might need to be increased slightly, but the damage wouldn't necessarily need to be.

 

What do you think?

[teeth_03]

I think dead fireing Hellfires at the ground in CQC should be more powerful than aiming them at range. Maybe the longer they are in the air, the less damage they do.

[Liederkranz]

Hellfires only work well on large open maps. As far as aiming around objects you cant really do it because they curve towards target WAY to quickly. No matter how much of an arc you give the missiles, they curve almost immediately into whatever you are trying to aim them around. 

 

I think that a damage buff would be too close to the edge of making them op. Instead, if the way missiles bend could be modified, let's say delay the bend a little bit more to give the pilot a wider array of strategies around objects, that would be fair for me.

[BIsmuthZornisse]

maybe the hellfire missiles should be fired one at a time in rapid succession, instead of all at once, since the weapon's model looks like it can't fire more than two simultaneously. Note that the successive fire would be automatic, with the trigger only being pulled to start it, like the technicians red gun fires 3 shots per button press.

 

the increased duration time may force the enemy behind cover for longer, although they no longer receive all the damage at once. I don't know if this would constitute as a buff or a nerf. Or if it would be terrible for open maps (especially bunker).

[DM30]

As they work right now, I wouldn't want to see Hellfires buffed because I find them borderline annoying to fight already, and if they were more effective that might push them across that line.

 

However, I also agree that their usefulness fades quickly after a certain point since they're slow, easy to dodge (if you know where they're coming from) and don't do tremendously impressive damage, so my proposition would look like this:

 

-Increase their initial flight speed to make dumb-firing easier, and to reduce their overall travel time to an enemy. Also increases the number of obstacles you can curve them around.

-Change the lock-on mechanic so that you can't just sweep the crosshairs across someone and get a lock just like that, or still get a full lock even if they break line of sight before you do. Make it so that to obtain a lock you have to keep the crosshairs on the target until a full lock is achieved, then you can turn away to curve them at will.

 

Conditional second steps:

-if people are finding it too difficult to track targets for the full lock-on duration, reduce it slightly, or make it so that firing with a partial lock means some of the missiles track and some don't.

-Adjust missile turn speed if the higher starting speed leads to them missing targets too often.

Edited by DM30, 07 May 2015 - 11:43 AM.

[TerasCell]

The best way to buff hellfires is this:

 

Increase missile speed by 300%

Increase turn speed radius of missiles by 100%

Increase homing accuracy to 100%

When fired, the Hellfires circle back around the Rocketeer, and then plunge deeply into the Rocketeer's exhaust ports, as deeply as they can go, all the way up there all good like. The missiles then have a 5 second timer before they explode, showing in large numbers a countdown on the Rocketeer's HUD, giving the Rocketeer 5 seconds to run/hover around vainly before the backside of their mech erupts and they die.

 

I think we'll experience vastly improved matches once this is implimented.

Edited by TerasCell, 10 May 2015 - 04:38 PM.

[Pelanthoris]

Spoiler

The best way to buff hellfires is this:

 

Increase missile speed by 300%

Increase turn speed radius of missiles by 100%

Increase homing accuracy to 100%

When fired, the Hellfires circle back around the Rocketeer, and then plunge deeply into the Rocketeer's exhaust ports, as deeply as they can go, all the way up there all good like. The missiles then have a 5 second timer before they explode, showing in large numbers a countdown on the Rocketeer's HUD, giving the Rocketeer 5 seconds to run/hover around vainly before the backside of their mech erupts and they die.

 

I think we'll experience vastly improved matches once this is implimented.

 

 

But in more serious note, if hellfires get a buff, IMO it should work as follows:

- Increase initial speed significantly

- Slow down to present speed after a while

- Start strong tracking only at this slower velocity

- Adjust damage to make it balanced

 

This way, it's easier to score hits in cqc, renders locking useless in cqc. Makes it easier to get around obstacles. Still possible to dodge them at long distances.

[MomOw]

My last thought s about buffing hellfire at close range

 

 

- Hellfire : make it shot 2 dumb missiles (0.15s between each) with a speed of 140 that deals each 52.5 damages on hit (i.e. 105 dmg at close range), make those missiles split into 3 smaller ones after 0.3s (i.e. 42m, the max damage range of mini-flak or SMC), the small missiles being the actual hellfire with slightly increased turnrate.

[StubbornPuppet]

One of the last things the Adhesive devs said about the Hellfire nerf was that they were experimenting with it to find the right balance.  Unfortunately, they made their first "over-nerf" adjustment and... well, they never made it back to tweak them again.  So, they got left in an over-nerfed state and are kind of useless in servers with an SRD over 1900.

 

I think they got the damage just about right... but they need to move a little bit faster and track a little better.  Not like they were before, but they need some jiggering.  I also like the suggestion to give them some splash damage.  I've been trying very hard to figure out how to make them useful without tracking... but they just don't do any hurting unless all 6 of them make direct contact.

[Nov8tr]

The best way to buff hellfires is this:

 

Increase missile speed by 300%

Increase turn speed radius of missiles by 100%

Increase homing accuracy to 100%

When fired, the Hellfires circle back around the Rocketeer, and then plunge deeply into the Rocketeer's exhaust ports, as deeply as they can go, all the way up there all good like. The missiles then have a 5 second timer before they explode, showing in large numbers a countdown on the Rocketeer's HUD, giving the Rocketeer 5 seconds to run/hover around vainly before the backside of their mech erupts and they die.

 

I think we'll experience vastly improved matches once this is implimented.

 

Oh I agree with this wholeheartedly. As long a YOU are the guy in the Rocketeer. KK?

[Sokram]

I think hellfires should start off slow and high tracking , but should lose tracking ability and increase flight speed constantly while going.

 

That way they will be very hard to dodge CQC but dodgeable at longer ranges.

 

Damage should stay same. Coz they can be fired from cover and do U turn and still hit stuff. 

[Liederkranz]

I think hellfires should start off slow and high tracking , but should lose tracking ability and increase flight speed constantly while going.

 

That way they will be very hard to dodge CQC but dodgeable at longer ranges.

 

That would completely ruin hellfires' purpose of long range offensive. Hellfires are dodgeable right now. To make them MORE dodgeable will render them useles at long range, especially against experienced enemies. I think that more of a buff, that would be a nerf.

 

For CQC punishment Bruiser already counts on the Vulcan.

[Pelanthoris]

Bed time idea! Make hellfire home to mmr! I'm totally joking.
:3

[Aregon]

Bed time idea! Make hellfire home to mmr! I'm totally joking.
:3

If the player`s mmr is over 2k it will increase in speed by 900% and damage by 500%, with a seeking capability of all over the map and the missiles will manouver around everything to hit that specific player.

 

I take 2 thanks.